I just lost a whole long post so take 2. I don't find your argument as well rounded as I think it was intended. "Progressive" ideas were present in early tv, movies and animation. We don't see those shows today because they would now be deemed inappropriate. At the time of early Hollywood, eugenics was in full swing. In keeping with the modern Progressive value of identity and group, those deemed outside the parameters of the ideal identity were segregated (the Democrat party point) by race or eliminated (sterilization euthanized) for the disabled. We don't show those animations outside of archival images of what was wrong. To claim conservative thinking somehow opposed to art and creativity is to ignore the great masterpieces created not only in Western Civilization, but also around the world. Conservative values such as individualism, freedom, and value of human life not only were the inspiration for much of art but also the foundation of the art. Btw, Walt was conservative and let's be honest he had some talent in animation. I would also question the argument that this is just what the market wants. If this was what the market wanted, GLAAD wouldn't have to use pressure campaigns, CA wouldn't have to use the force of government via the tax code to impose CA population percentages on media companies (notice CA demographics, not AK or MS or even US or even world). Those same pressure groups wouldn't have to be pressure Bollywood for representation either. If this was just a market response, the creators wouldn't need to be pressured. You wouldn't need special exemptions to spend the retirement funds of everyday people to pay for ESG--if those funds met the normal fiduciary guidelines nonexception would be needed, but they don't. Incidently saying conservatism is antithetical to art also ignores anime, manga, manwa, Kdramas, Bollywood, the great TV shows out of Africa, the great comics of Latin America, movies out of Russia and Iran, even Afghanistan....much of which rejects US progressive ideas. Which leads into "just go to conservative media". That's great, until Progresssive politicians try to deplatform the highest rated cable channel (Fox), for being conservative. It's great until Progressives they to crush conservative artists and writers, not only using whisper networks and blacklists, but even trying to destroy creator owned and crowdfunded projects. Notice conservatives do not try to destroy or even question the right of Oni to exist and publish? Yet the market isn't supporting Oni. They have a few selling books, but not enough to survive. Yet no one is trying to stop their bank accounts or payment processors. As far as there just "being one _______", I come back to the Batfamily. Batwoman lesbian, Catwoman-bi, Harley-bi, Ivy-bi, Cass-bi, Steph-bi, Talia-poly, Harper-lesbian, Babs-not sure how you class hinted affair with Trans roommates, bi?, Martha-hinted bi, Leslie- hetero, Maps-too young to know, Alyssa- Trans, bi(? Not sure how that works). Now that isn't representation. It's not a reflection of the world and given many of these caused major changes to the characters involved its not story determined. Add in the interviews with creators that have boasted that these changes are part of an agenda push, I think it's kind of reasonable to take them at their word. Btw, there was also a thriving early black cinema movement that has been almost forgotten in time, just as we've forgotten some of the great early Asian stars.
While I can acknowledge my ignorance and lack of proper research to prolly definitively state that left leaning progressive ideology was barely in media for the past 50 (I think that’s along the lines of what I said) I will say even given your examples #1, I was only referring to the West so stuff like anime, bollywood & such I wasn’t including. #2, to the conservatism point, I think we can agree that although yes, freedom and liberty are historically attributed to conservative ideology, freedom of expression partially relating to emotional vulnerability or through manipulating traditional traits of characters to explore different themes in less common scenarios are way less likely to happen in conservative driven media rather than more progressive stories. Although I under stand the example of Walt & the existence of Fox, whether it be through years of agenda fighting or natural supply & demand, or the fact that most consumers of media are younger (especially in animation & Fictional media) and they tend to be more progressive and seek progressive media, at the very least, the larger society hasn’t had too much of a problem with progressive media dominating the American market for the better part of the last 30 or so years. For the comic book point, I see the growth and prevalency of them, but them simply being a differing sexuality, doesn’t inherently affect the story. Like even if it’s an agenda push, I don’t see it any different from the 97% of straight characters there was just 25 years ago, when at the very least 5% of society (especially youth) were more LGBTQ+, I’m of the opinion that part of the “representation” movement involves a pendulum swing, so if the pendulum for 50/100/1000’s of years was only showing straight and demonizing anything else, then in order to swing public opinion and even things out, a little bit of over representation is required, like I’m sure If we look at the amt of LGBTQ characters lead books it’s closer to the representative amount but I can understand the disgruntlement of saturation, I’d just argue personally it’s required for progress
@Kardiac K Again, we disagree on expression and conservatism. I would argue that once their usefulness has expired, Progressives come for artists, which is happening now. While conservatism values the individual, and therefore the expression of the individual, progressivism focuses on group identity means any individual outside the group must be suppressed (again the example being progressive attempts to crush Eric July vs no one attacking Oni.) I find the response on "representation" interesting. At least you admit that elimination is, if not the goal but the by product of this "diversity" over representation push. Which does fit the progressive mind set as again it elevates the group over the individual. Come to think of it, that's the argument you made. I would also disagree as to the impact on the story. While we'll developed characters like Midnighter, Apollo and Kate Kane added to the stories, others do not. Look at Teen Titans Academy. Lots and lots of representation, Itty bitty plot or story. The same with Tim Drake Robin. 30 years building up a character with nuance and the ability to carry of solo....for the low selling, aimless book that randomly throws out basic elements of the character (elements with nothing to do with sexuality.) Finally, I'm not sure how effective this push has been, even with attracting young audiences. Manga and Manwa are kicking US comic's butts. US movies now have to compete with international films where once the US dominated. Marvel isn't hitting its targets. Pixar films are no longer guaranteed hits. Streaming services that focus solely on US material are failing to break even. To go back to the Batfamily example again, expecting 47% of comic book readers are female. Let's take the high end and say that 10% of that group is bi or lesbian. That means 37% of the audience should pay $3.99-10.99 per comic to see no "representation". Maybe the market will support that strategy, maybe it won't. Which now that I think on it is another progressive point- the group has the right to the resources of the individual to support the group ideology.
I’ll have to say that although Yh I agree that progressive ideology is more in line with collectivism and utilitarian ideology than conservativism, it’s still individualist in the west, it just seeks to uplift minor groups and thought processes at the same level of the majority and widely accepted as opposed to conservatism which is, like the name implies, for the conservation of the status quo, the traditional, and for some, does not offer room for as much experimentation in nature. I just think that that’s also present in media or art. But to address the reality of representation’s success, manga and manwa are not indeed winning the “comic book war” (in the US), the way manga is usually circulated is a different measuring stick to comics, but when adjusted for manga volumes vs comic bundles of specific runs, comic sales still dwarf the American Manga Market. The MCU is a particular case bc that franchise specifically is facing fatigue that’s separate from their diversity push. I’d say the same with Pixar but even then, Soul, Moana, and CoCo are 3 films unanimously held in high regard to the same level as 2000’s Pixar films and are the champions of modern representative cinema. As well as the success of Spiderverse and some others that escape me rn, and representation has had huge successes on not only being profitable and successful in their own right, but also having cultural impacts to the extent of a Black Panther or Hidden Figures. Yes it’s a mixed bag, yes it’s an agenda, yes there’s some cash grabs and some horrible projects, but progressive driven media in the past 10 years has still been successful and for most, has still been acclaimed.
@Kardiac K Again, I'd point to your own words, "seeks to uplift minority groups". Group over individual. The "group" is the inherent value. The problem is that outside the "group" the individual loses value. Conservative doesn't doesn't always seek to maintain the current situation, as history has shown. The Conservative values are founded in individual freedom, which is why Conservatives push (and byw continue to push) for the end of slavery, suffrage, freedom of thought and religion-of the individual. As far as manga sells vs US comic books sells, no sells of US produced comics do nor exceed sells of manga and manwa, and frankly giving distribution channels couldnt. Unlike manga US comics distribution is limited to/by the direct market strategy, and so far poor digital strategy. As opposed to Viz and others strategy for wide market sells with a real digital strategy. The US IP until recently sold more. Though just Chainsaw man alone has stepped up to challenge that dominance by becoming the top earning IP----beating decades old IP in a very short window. The only way to reach that figure is to try and calculate every manga or manwa issue then compare it to sells of specific publisher from the US, basically comparing a whole pie to a slice. A real comparison could be made of top 20's with numbers. Whixh often ends up being books that routines are sell 100,000 vs books selling 20,000. There is a reason manga fills those book scan charts. I did not, and would never, suggest that because a story features minority character or characters it does worse-not only is that incorrect, it's obviously incorrect. But, notice that your examples are all films before the diversity push. Moana is a character founded in her community and heritage. Her strength is nurtured by her community and history-she is far from a 'replacement" for Cinderella- French girl also founded in her heritage and history. Soul again is the story of a man deeply rooted in his community and character history. These stories connect not because we "see ourselves" not in the skin tone of the characters, but the humanity and the human stories of the character. These were not Jace Fox, who just found the someone's stuff and took that identity. Jace (thus far) has no reason to be Batman. His role is disconnected from his heritage and history. They needed a black Batman, they created one. He has no connection to Batman iconography, other than his family received stolen goods from the Joker, so he "stumbled" on Bruce's stuff and took it. This is unlike several of the Batman Inc characters that had a real connection and reason based on their history and history of their communities...unlike say Ghostmaker-they need Batman to be gay or at least bi. Presto chango, Batman is wink wink bi wink wink, see here is his gay friend wink wink. Wink wink we won't say they have a relationship, but wink wink we didn't say they didn't, wink wink, and maybe won't again wink wink. That nothing in Bruce's history suggested such a relationship was irrelevant to the need to represent. Also, none of the stories you mentioned tried to push progressive narratives as the purpose of the story. Unlike Teen Titans Academy the young aren't educating the cretin elders. Instead Moana learns from her elders and respects her heritage...and doesn't tell Tafiki that all that soot and ash from the L volcano is the actual cause of climate change, spewing carbon in the air. Again conpare that to Stitch or any of the Titan replacements in TTA. On that same front, notice Jace was supposed to "replace" Bruce-why? Don't know other than he is black On that topic, compare Jace to Hardware . This "Batman" is "Batman" because...well, his ultra rich family lives a "normal" life until they benefited from Joker's crimes, then Jace found the suit and Jace (unlike thousands of others) has some military training so he earned it. With Hardware (Duffie) the character gained his identity through personal trials. His identity was connected to his experience. Again, contrast that to MCU Falcon Cap. As Falcon the character has history that tied him to Falcon. His years of training in the military tied him to his identity, as did his optimism and hope (figuratively his ability to soar). As Captain America his identity is the very thing he rails against. He (constantly) berates the very ideals his symbol represents, to the point of protecting a terrorist over the people of that symbol. Why is his "Captain America"? Well, to replace the white guy. Not because he believes in the heritage that the symbol represents or even because he wants to fulfill those ideals (which somewhat ironically Falcon did.) Which really is why of all the ideologies, the only one I truly fear is Progressivism. It tramples over the individual. At some point you will always end up "outside" the group, you'll end up not pure enough in ideology, not extreme enough in life style, not black enough, not down trodden enough. Or in comics terms you'll be so narrow the books don't sell.
One of my favorite marvel characters is a character that many would consider to be "woke" or "SJW" but I have seen her be written super well and I have also seen her written terribly but my point is that it's all about the writing of a character. btw the character is Moon Girl aka Lunella Lafayette
Exactly, and I think so many people boil it down to shit that’s not even connected to the writing of the character that it jus shows prejudice and ignorance
Anime does it best as you said, but I see no issue with the "wokeness" of western media. As you said it is more of a storytelling issue then a political one.
There is no issue yeah, at the end of the day, good artists create good art, a literary or social element is just that, but utilized correctly, it becomes a part of a good story
I personally believe there is no true escapismin in media. Any media that reflects the world that we are currently living is doing exactly what it is meant to do. Art ismeant to reflect reality and ask questions to push and progress our culture
Id probably agree with you too. I think that’s the purpose of art, to manipulate the lens that we view our own world, culture, and environment, but I can understand how important immersion and escapism can be for some, especially those who don’t view animation, video games, comics or anime as art which is baffling to me
