Presbyterian Denominations Tier List 

So finally someone who thinks of me. I too, being raised Presbyterian UPC and now PCUSA, confirmed in the denomination have found it appalling to say the least what is happening in our denomination, and what others consider Presbyterian. First of all, listen well to this guy!! My church as a child had strong ties with the mother Church of Presbyterians in Scotland which is the Church of Scotland and particular St Giles Cathedral. All these off shoots of modern day Presbyterians are not Presbyterian in my mind, I do not give a rats you know what if they say they are. They are nothing but, as he explained here modified and Reformed Baptists. Presbyterians are NOT Baptist, not close to Baptist. We differ on government, our understanding of Salvation, there belief in their ordinances which we call Sacraments are totally different. We DO NOT BELIEVE its just a memorial!! We actually believe in pneumatic Real Presence which Anglicans and Methodist share as well. We baptize infants and do not believe that is just some kind of act, and you need to do it as a consenting adult for salvation. So I have been Presbyterian most all my life, christened as a baby Methodist and then later Presbyterian and confirmed in that denomination. Look at who the PCUSA is in full communion with, and you will not notice any of these offshoot Presbyterians. I do not give a rip if they call themselves that. Their core beliefs, worship and idea of Confessions of the church are not what we hold. I am all for church tradition. We have to remember, that John Knox- The Church of Scotland ( Presbyterian) broke from the Roman Catholic, we are not an offshoot of Anglicans like Methodist, we are actually siblings with Anglicans and Lutherans and the such. I am all for tradition and voices like this. Perhaps people, especially in these free flowing Presbyterian denominations need to see and understand what real Presbyterianism is about!! I am going to leave a link for St Giles Cathedral where you can watch services. Also a link on our beliefs. I have never been comfortable in these modern day PCA or OPC churches, in my mind, they are not truly real Presbyterians. BTW we have only named a few, there are many break offs. Now also the Cumberland which was not mentioned is also a great Presbyterian denomination, and many are traditional. These other ones , in my opinion should take out the name Presbyterian and go by something else, they truly do NOT follow our tradition. Some do not even have a Confession of Sin in the service, even before Communion some do not recite the Lords Prayer, Apostles or Nicene Creed, Do not wear Clerical robes/vestments do not have an Order of Worship, and the list goes on. Those in my mind are NOT TRUE and TRADITIONAL PRESBYTERIANS. This guy, said it and articulated it well. We need to not stray away from tradition. www.stgilescathedral.org.uk/9723-930 www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/

Just an idea, a video summarizing historic Christian heresies could be very interesting

Zoomer, you might not see this but your videos honestly helped me find God. 26 years old surely haven't been pious, but I know through Him, all will be forgiven. Thank you for inspiring me.

I implore to you make a video on: -how to pray(to whom? When?) -how to repent(what for? Penance?)(What if I forgot something?) -etc. Essentially: HOW TO be a Christian

I would consider any church which ordains women to be progressive. Being conservative on a handful of other issues doesn’t change that.

I was a degenerate, atheistic twenty-three year old alcoholic in a jail cell for a DUI when a young, quietly charismatic OPC pastor came and administered a service to the five or six of us who joined. It was an amazing experience. He left me with "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Michael Horton, along with an ESV Bible, with reading suggestions. Later, I reached out, and he brought me the Westminster. Upon release, I met with the pastor in person and we discussed the goings on of Christ and culture. I even went to his church, Providence OPC in Southfield, MI. The tenor was very serious, and the style, unadorned. I wasn't ready for it because my intentions were not set right. That day is set apart. I was still too worldly to get it. It wasn't about me. Even so, I've never forgotten that experience and the generosity of the pastor. I've always felt like God was doing a work through him to call unto me.

The historical Baptist (not anabaptist) view was spiritual presence. I believe what happened was that a lot of low church views infected the baptists churches (and many other churches as well) after the 2nd great awakening which promoted restoration instead of reformation. The Baptist movement already had some restorationist attitudes, however, at one point, many Baptists were high church and believed in real presence.

Would love a video about sexual sin, it’s an underdiscussed topic in my opinion since it’s so incredibly prevalent, but you don’t hear many people actually discussing it and how to combat it on an interpersonal and societal level. I am in middle school, and it is incredibly surprising how much sex is discussed, and how many people dress and act immodestly. (I mean it kinda makes sense my school district is really leftist, but still)

I'm so happy you included us in the RPCNA! I actually visited that pretty white church in the bottom right corner last month. I promise that we're not cold, but actually quite warm and welcoming. No "frozen chosen" here!

I question how much a person reads the bible if they don't believe they need church and only need the bible. Reading the bible would explain why you need church.

Bro destroyed the theology of half of the modern Christians in the first 25 seconds

A pastor who does not believe Jesus literally rose from the dead is a false shepherd, a wolf.

OPC was the church God used to draw me to him and reformed theology(in the deep South of all places). You need to visit an OPC church before you pass judgment, imo. They were more warm and welcoming than the PCA church I attend now, and do far more community outreach as well. The OPC churches around us join up with PCA churches to do conferences. I may be biased bc I loved my OPC family, but I think your broad swaths can be damaging, especially if you have no personal experience with them.

Sir you've unfairly characterized the OPC. We don't have a huge impact because we're a small denomination, but we punch our weight as far as evangelism and outward ministry is concerned. Please visit an OPC church some time.

“…people converting to Catholicism and Orthodoxy on mass” no pun intended lol.

Ranking other traditions of denominations would be interesting (ie Lutheranism, Anglicanism, etc).

I completely agree with your views on PCUSA and PCA. Sadly, there are no moderate PCUSA churches near me and there are no ECO churches, only PCA and Cumberland. I am going to visit a PCA church this upcoming Sunday. God bless!

In Europe all protestants have churches and cathedrals. My school is located on Lutheran street. And the street is named so because it starts with Lutheran church.

EPC-ECO merge. ARP, OPC, and PCA merge. ECO becomes complimentarian and merges with PCA. PCA now has better view of sacraments. PCUSA becomes conservative and merges with the PCA. I like PCA over PCUSA, so the PCA brand would take over.

As someone that left the Presbyterian Denomination, I'm so glad you're making this. Really appreciate all the work you're doing for Christianity.

Minus the F-tier row, this tier list is really just a ranking of which denominations on average have the church buildings that Redeemed Zoomer likes the most.

RZ wanted to kiss the screen when he read about their theology? He's about to go Orthodox for sure.

26:10 They have: the foundation fo Westminster theological seminary in Philadelphia for which many reformed denominations are thankful for

Thanks so much, brother, for another excellent video. You are building up treasures in heaven, brother!

I grew up in a hardcore leftist PCUSA church, then after 15 years of not going to church, I found myself in a PCA church. There’s no question that the PCA church I now go to is much better in every way. The PCUSA church taught us lots of heresies. They didn’t emphasize the Westminster confession at all. Also the church got hijacked by the LGBTQ community to the point where it became known as one of the foremost gay churches in the country. So glad to be PCA now. I haven’t noticed any of the criticisms you have in my PCA church. We take the sacraments seriously and my pastor is very clear about why we do infant baptism.

I'm not Christian but I watch your videos because I am attracted to autistic nuance in hobbies and vocations.

There's a church near me i am thinking about scouting for the reconquista, what ahould i be looking for, and what should i be doing?

Non-denoms be like: there was early church then 1900 years later Jim Bob's Nondenom church finally got it exactly right! ECO be like: there was the early church then 1900 years later we finally got women's ordination right!

Before becoming an Anglican I was a Presbyterian for thirty years -- born and baptized in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.), the old Southern Presbyterian Church, amalgamated into the PCUSA in 1983, departed for the ARP in 1993. Your point about the strength of the Scots Confession is valid, but in the PCUSA you also have to accept the Confession of 1967 in the Book of Confessions. While I share your convictions about women clergy, the chances for a candidate in the PCUSA who holds those convictions are practically nonexistent. If Walter Wynn Kenyon was still alive I'd encourage you to ask him about his experiences. Finally, as a Southerner, I find your attitude toward those from our region dismissive, to include the sarcastic accent.

Just started and we already introduced quantum mechanics into a teirlist

Would LOVE this for the traditional Protestant groups like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.

RZ, Reformed Baptist (aka “Bless your heart” Calvinist) here. Regarding sacraments (which we call ordinances), where would you start to better understand them as means of grace instead of just symbols? I came from Trinitarian Pentecostalism to Reformed Charismatic to Reformed Baptist unsure about continuation of gifts, so I’m open to hearing other views. I looked up the local PCUSA church here in Jefferson City, and it’s pastored by a woman and it seems they are pretty woke. Based on their worship guide, they still seem to be traditional in their worship, though. I haven’t driven by to see if a pride flag is hanging out front yet.

“The PCA is my favorite baptist denomination” had me rolling. I go to school in the Bible Belt, so the church choices are like Catholic, Baptist, Baptist, Baptist, Non-denom (but really baptist), and PCA. Now, I actually don’t go to any of those. I go to the new baptist church plant, because that’s what the city needed: another baptist church.

My father, for over a decade, worked as a United Methodist pastor in various Midwestern cities and towns. In the late 1970's, he was in a small Iowa city with five churches. The other four were, by denomination, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Congregationalist/ United Church of Christ, and Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Once a year, the pastors of all five churches, except the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, would take part in a joint service. My father asked the Lutheran minister why he wouldn't do it, and the response was, "Because it would show I agree with what you are doing."

I am somewhat surprised the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was not on the list.

love to hear you talking about ECO!

As someone who grew up in an EPC, and still being a member of one, i actually fully agree with your ranking. Each church can be wildly different, and that brings it down a little to me.

This is very informative. Please do tier lists for the other major denominations as well!

I belong to a PCA church in NJ & am so glad it is absolutely nothing like you said they tend to be. I didn’t even know these trends exist in the PCA because we hold the historical Presbyterian view of both sacraments and a high view of worship with traditional liturgy. I know you said there are exceptions, but just commenting to confirm this since it is possible a PCA church may be the only solid Presbyterian church near you.

us zoomers in the discord definitely contributed to that southern voice😂

I am surprised by how much you bring up Church architecture. My degree is in architecture, so I love it and I love good Church architecture that puts the worshipper in a proper emotional state (or at least tries to). That being said, I think there is a line of to be crossed when the building is so large, ornate, expensive that the attention doesn't go to Christ, it goes to the Church and how impressive it is. What kind of witness does it show the watching world that we empty our wallets to keep a building looking exceptional while people starve? Obviously there's balance, I think new churches should have some regard for design, but not so much that its distracting or takes my affections away from Jesus. Just a thought.

The southern accent kills me every time (as someone who is from Texas) 🤣

ARP guy here, haven’t started the video yet but It’s crazy to see our tiny denomination on YT. I’m interested to see what you have to say, will edit with my response. Edit: first I want to say, great video. I’m a Zoomer myself and this is one of the first 30 minute videos I’ve watched all the way through in a while. I agree with the B tier rating, I would say A tier but I think a good point is made that ECO has more traditional churches. For example, my church which I’ve grown up in is just in the building of an Lutheran Church that was probably built in the 70s or 80s, though our congregation has been around for a whopping 185 ish years. Another thing is that there is one difference between the ARP and the PCA, a minor one but it’s there. In the ARP we ALLOW women to be deacons, although this is at the discretion of each individual church congregation. This is because it’s a servant role and not a leadership role. But overall, a good analysis and I will definitely be checking out the Scot’s Confession.

1st off, thank you. I love your videos and love how humble you are. I loved your ending, that many will have different priorities-that's really what it comed down to. Stick to those God given convictions. That said, I wanted to say a few things as an OPC member. You're probably busy and have a life outside of RU-vid, so take your time in replying. It's the people, not the building, that makes the difference. I asked in a previous comment, what do you say to what Jesus said about worshipping in Spirit and truth being more important than the place? I agree that, sadly, we in the OPC appear to be lacking in influencing culture. However, have you read Ortland's book Ordinary? It helped me a lot in realizing how the "ordinary" acts of the church are what really transform us and culture. Thankfully, I've been in the same church my whole life and whenever someone visits they say the complete opposite of what you said-we're very friendly and welcoming. Maybe my church is the odd one out, but not from what I've seen. My dad is a pastor, so my family gets to visit other churches when he is on vacation. They've always been extremely welcoming to us. While attending a university far away from home without many good churches around, I'm more convinced of how good and important good doctrine is. It does lead to impact, if people follow through. I have seen this happen in my home church and know it can happen. Sadlly, we often do not follow through. I agree that good theology without good works is useless! James said that. However, that doesn't mean we should compromise the theology-it means we should follow what we know to be true. I think that is the option for most if not all these-start following what you say. Hope this makes sense. Love and prayers brother!

Would be interested to see you rank the denominations of other Christian traditions as an outsider.

It’s tough to have PCUSA outside D tier. The state of the denomination is very rough. I understand and respect the utility of the institution. I suggest The Lord’s Service by Jeff Meyers on the topic of worship. CREC churches model a lot of worship off that book but the author is PCA. Youll be pleasantly surprised and challenged I think.

Here in Brazil, the bigger presbyterian denomination IPB (Igreja Presbiteriana do Brasil/ Brazil Presbyterian Church) was founded by PCUSA missionaries but the IPB cut the connection when the PCUSA started ordering women as pastors and etc. The IPB still conservative, but every year some synod tries something like order women as deacon (I don't know the correct word for Diácono/Diaconós) but it never passes. About the traditionalism, like liturgy, pastores wearing robes, etc, it will depends on the region. For example, in the northeast region, it is kind hard to find a church following the liturgical calendar (advent, pentecost...) because of the heavy presence of the Catholic Roman Church so the protestant churches avoid to be like the roman church in many ways (much of them I disagree), including, when I started wearing a cross pendant some people told me that I looked like an Catholic Roman.

The best church coming from a baptist church was a OPC and it is still today the best church I have been to. They are very warm and welcoming.

The ECO congregation here in San Antonio has a beautiful 100 year-old gothic revival church and hosts 2 traditional + 2 modern services.

I know you know a lot more about Presbyterians, but it’d be awesome if you did this for all the denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, Congregationalists, etc. I am a Mainliner, but hearing you roast the ones that have gone WAY off the rails like the UCC would be great. 😂

Reformed presby here. Keep it up man. I’m in the PC USA too let’s work on it. I’m not giving up

Can you do this with all the Christian denominations?

I'm RPCNA and I didn't think he was going to mention it.

Bro absolutely annihilated the Only Perfect Church...

I will be checking out a biblical PCUSA church in my town this upcoming Sunday. I would have never considered the PCUSA until I learned about you and your movement.

29:00 😂😂😂 I wasn’t even going to comment about your exclusion of the CREC but now I feel obligated to say something

In my world (Lutheranism), the WELS is our OPC. They stick to themselves and don't even commune anyone unless they're a member of a WELS church or a denomination they're in fellowship with. And as for the OPC, the entire denominational membership is nearly equivalent to the membership of Joel Osteen's church!

Oh this is interesting. Thanks.

I forgot that there’s a distinction between Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian (I’m Dutch so I only know the former) and I was looking for the Dutch Reformed denoms to appear in the tier list but of course that would fall outside the scope of this video 🤦‍♂️

Would you consider making a video discussing the protagonists of New Atheism (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc)? I've listened to many of these men at length, and the more I do the more I'm disappointed anyone finds them convincing, even if they are extremely well-spoken and intelligent.

Lol you’re the best unbiased person for these kinds of videos. I laughed at the beginning

Reformed Baptist here and no offense taken. Since we're at war we desperately need unity in the major stuff. We can have arguments over the sacraments later, after the rulers, authorities and powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms have been put under the feet of Christ. God bless you.

I think there should be a funny game sort of geoguesser-esque that has 3d models of buildings and you have to tell if they are office buildings or non-denom. churches with the crosses photoshopped out. (The names would also be photoshopped out)

Obligatory comment from an OPC member. After watching your whole video and listening to your reasoning I have to say I think your ranking of the OPC in D tier is… Pretty fair. I think it deserves a C tier, but maybe that’s because I go to a larger OPC church that is pushing hard to have an impact in our community, but there are many OPC churches that are “theology in a white box.” If I’m not mistaken there have been some attempts to merge with other denominations over the years. The problem is that when you look at the scale of something as big as a whole denomination with as many rules as presbyterians have…it turn out splitting is a lot easier than unifying. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m just saying on an individual level it feels like there’s a lot less that can be done

Do Pentecostals next!

PCA churches seem to be the most organized and well run, at least in Texas.

Please do Lutherans next 🙏🏼 ❤😅

0:28 that plus I see denominations as just general ways of telling someone *most* of the overarching beliefs you hold. Yeah it can get confusing but overall I think it is a useful tool. Because not everyone agrees on these secondary issues.

Went to an OPC church. Yes the church was small and not alot of people there. Everyone was polite and i felt welcome. The pastor was great, im conservative and we agreed on almost everything so i was very glad to see this

I am currently leaving ECO and coming into PCA. I had no idea that there were folks in the PCUSA like yourself. Very enlightening.

I love your views on winning back the denominations. I'm reading a book talking about the church under communsim and I see a lot of similarities. I love this quote in it. We stay because if we go, who will be left to pray? - Brother Andrew, God's Smuggler.

heh RPCNA'er here- thx for the recognition! We are small, but we are here, and we are mighty! We are very much more conservative, and I do think that we go a little ham on the psalmody aspect (there are good hymns, and there are not as good hymns), but the sacraments are very important, and we are very nerdy. Come out and see us! Philly has two of our churches, so come visit! Also, singing without instruments, in my mind, is so much more than the praise bands and such- Choirs make it seem as if worship is for other people to do for you, and organs just overpower everything. Singing in 4-part harmony, is AWESOME, especially if you get a good presenter and like 3-5 people who can read music.

God bless your struggle for the PCUSA!

I am Calvary Chapel attendee. However, so many things said about looking for something different is so spot on. Going through all of it, now. The Eucharist is the biggest thing for me at the moment.

Hey bro, I go to a PCA church. We do hold the same view on the sacraments as the PCUSA. I’m sorry ur experience has been different. I can get what u mean by the reformed Baptist stuff, but I don’t think having worship being contemporary hymn like, or not having crazy beautiful churches per se is detrimental to being traditional/reformed (just some examples, I know you didn’t mention these). I agree with the OPC guy you responded to also a bit, I think the people in the body and the gospels purity should be most important. I think The PCA gets the gospel spot on and to me that’s why I attend those church’s. If they were to stray from the gospel, I’d rather go to any non-denomination church that isn’t highly reformed if they got the gospel right (I do hold to spiritual presence and that baptism saves the elect). Would love to hear ur thoughts, I like the vid though!

The PCA and PCUSA split in 1861. The PCA was more historically accurate but both children churches continued to drift towards pandering to modern ideals in feminism (not all of which is bad), abortion, gay ministers, and dis-usage of Psalms. The OPC was an attempt to go back (but not as far back as the RPCNA)

As an OPC member. I am slightly offended.

12:55 sacraments are a *means* of salvation? What about "by faith alone"? Ephesians 2:8-9 and such verses? 15:30 "and this water symbolizes baptism that now sayes you also--not the removal of dirst from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It says you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" the verse as the word "symbolizes" in it. In whatever sense I know that we arent drawing from the original translation but many translation put in this word. And of course there's many such verses that back up the idea that it speaking of a symbol, just given how many people where saved without baptism.

CREC is a vast majority non-FV btw, from your friendly neighborhood CREC member. Jim Jordan and Peter Leithart are really the only FV guys left but even Jordan has softened. Another note of the CREC is that a lot of CREC churches came out of the PCA and SBC (and the remanets of ARBCA) because they wanted either more a more kuyperean or theonomic political/social stance and they wanted a higher sacramentology (most of the CREC where I live would be reformed anglican if they didn't reject episcopacy.)

PCA pastor here, and we definitely do NOT think that the sacraments are mere signs. We believe that they are means of grace. We believe in the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper.

This video would have been better if each denomination was graded using a multiple criteria rubric rather than flat tiers. You were on by putting the PCUSA in multiple tiers. Each denomination should have gotten the same treatment.

Nondenominational here! My church specifically is lead by four elders who all have equal say in decisions and are held accountable by our members. We're currently looking for a church building and we're underneath Acts 29, if you'd want to do a video on facts vs myths on evangelical/nondenominational Christians, (most of us see the terms as interchangeable,) that might help people understand the social confusion and where we went wrong.

Church tour of your church!

The OPC doesn’t want denominational institutions because they will often sway the denominational politics in its direction (ie Princeton in the 20s to the PCUSA). It remains small on purpose because it wants to maintain its distinctives. It had the opportunity to join the PCA and said no, the URCNA wanted to merge with it, but it said no. This is because it wants to remain true to what makes it unique (delegated assembly, Van Tillian apologetics, Westminster fidelity etc.) instead it provides support and resources to these new denominations it helped form. The Trinity Hymnal and Trinity Psalter Hymnal were both projects that the OPC partnered and oversaw for other new denominations (ie the PCA and URCNA). Great Commission Publications was started by the OPC and PCA to offer resources to other Reformed denominations so that there would be resources for conservative Presbyterian churches. Westminster Theological Seminary was started by Machen but never became a denominational seminary because the OPC wanted it to stay independent so that if the denomination went left the seminary would be guarded against that (and vis versa). Everything the OPC does isn’t to stay isolated, but a lot of the work the OPC does is behind the scenes and in the halls of the General Assembly’s of other denominations. Its influence is as a mentor to other startups. The Reformed Church of NZ was greatly influenced by the OPCs help and resources at its founding, so was the PCA and URCNA. In my opinion it is one of the better denominations out there.

Can you do a video on your thoughts about the books of Enoch?

Hello mate, would you be able to do a video on how to develop a closer relationship to the Lord? I read the bible and pray each day but haven’t felt that click of a relationship yet, and I want to have that but am unsure how I can develop it better.

Presbyterian church in Ireland is another one second largest denomination in Northern Ireland after Catholicism and quite a few followers across the rest of Ireland

I wonder how he would rank the first century churches in this list, the ones started by Peter and Paul. They preached Jesus, and Him crucified for our sins. They baptized believers. Yet, he criticizes Baptists (actually Anabaptists) for doing the same. The early church didn't have man-made traditions that accumulated over the year, which for some reason seem so important to him. Would the first century churches be C or less? I always thought the apostles teachings were the model.

I'm part of a Baptist church that has a pretty low view of the sacraments (obviously). I hold a pretty high view of them. Based on your comment at 13:30, would you say that I am not actually receiving the body and blood of Christ since my church doesn't hold to that view?

*Cries in OPC 😭 what you say is pretty spot on. But it’s the only reformed church in my county

Probably the main reason why PCA churches might look plain and non-sacred is most probably lost their buildings to the PCUSA when they left. I know most Episcopal dioceses hold church properties in trust which is why many churches in the Diocese of Virginia lost their old church buildings.

What are your thoughts on the RCA?

beautiful churches have nothing to do with Gods glory... You can fight all you want as long as its for the kingdom and not for a man-made institution. You missed the Gold standard of denominations: FCC

I'd like to talk about how well the PCA once did a great job in bringing christ to Korea during the war. There are still Korean churches in my area from Presbytarian, Methodist & Baptists, in kentucky no less! It is remarkable frankly

Wait why put something both in F and S tier? Why not just put it halfway?

Fun fact: there are almost as many Presbyterian denominations in Scotland as in the USA. Would be fun to add them to the tier list.

I agree with some of your criticisms of the OPC, but I do want to defend its “kingdom” power. Machen and others who left Princeton founded Westminster Theological Seminary. That seminary plus its eventual branches give the OPC influence at the academic level.

Also, the idea, that some people have the desire for beautiful church buildings sure is sad. Talk about having the wrong focus. God is looking for hearts not bricks.

Zoomer, my Church recently gave us a free book "This is My Body" by Bishop Robert Barron........can you opine on this book please? thank you in advance.

Another point of interest in the OPC is that they hold to 3 offices (they seperate the office of preacher and ruling elder) instead of 2 like most other reformed groups.