Professional Artists AREN'T All Experts (Why I Don't Make Tutorials) || SPEEDPAINT + COMMENTARY 

I have seen "professionals" have some terrible advice where half their advice was basically making your artstyle not unique at all

Another point is that, even if someone is an expert at a skill, that doesnt mean theyd be a good teacher at all. Some people are really bad at explaining things, so to expect them to be able to just automatically have that skill just because theyre good at the thing is silly

6:12 Honestly, I think that people can learn a lot from your channel by just looking at your speed-paints. Studying speedpaints seems to be something people don’t consider a lot. The only things you can’t really learn from speedpaints are what types of layers, brushes, and other off-screen techniques and artist uses. Which could be a really great thing for you to make if you ever felt like it. (A good example would be a tutorial on how you color the hair of a character slightly so it matches the skin tone, or how you decide lineart colors, stuff like that)

another thing to note for why not every artist would want to (or should) make tutorials, is that they're not necessarily good _teachers._ while experts in a field are absolutely the best person to go to for tips and tutorials, they won't always explain it _well._ whatever tutorial they make might feel like watching spongebob draw a perfect circle to the person who asked for it. making a good tutorial isn't just about knowing enough about the subject, it also requires some teaching skills.

When I hear "professional artist", what I expect is an artist who is professional about their work. You know, responds in a timely manner to business inquiries, writes their emails with proper grammar and in a neutral tone, honors deadlines, listens to client feedback, that sort of thing.

Finally! I've recently started watching tutorials from professionals and they are so different from what I see from artists on RU-vid... and so much better

I wouldn’t get too hung up on it personally. You don’t have to be a perfect artist to make tutorials. It’s always good to share your tips and input with other artists to show the tricks that helped you. There’s so many tutorials out there I’ve tried that are awful and done by well respected professionals, but there is some advice I’ve gotten from artists less experienced than I am that really helped. Everyone learns differently, so you never know what you’ll do or say to greatly help someone else. I’d give it a chance, personally, but that’s just my two cents 😅

It's amazing how few people realise 'professional' just means they're being paid for it, similar to how amatuer just means NOT paid (actually it means 'for the love of', but is generally used as the opposite of professional for that reason), skill level is a separate thing. To take your Doctor example a bit further, the older one might retire and so no longer be a professional, but are they any less an expert?

5% talent. 95% hard work.

I WAS SO EXCITED WHEN I GOT THE NOTIF IM SO GLAD SHE POSTED

Great video! And I completely relate. People have been asking me to post coloring art tutorials for a while but I wouldn't be comfortable doing that since I really have no idea what I'm doing (I just pick colors I think are pretty).

I tried to do some video/animation tutorials in my discord and it uhhhh went off track very quickly lmao Doesn't matter how skilled you are, you need a certain level of social skill & charisma to teach effectively i think

Oh my finally someone talking about this topic

I've long maintained (in fact I said the same in a comment on a _really_ useful video by 'LinesSensei' yesterday), that there is a substantial difference between _knowing_ how to do something, and knowing how to *teach* it to the uninitiated. Even exceptional-grade artists can fall into this trap, time-lapsing an absolute _masterpiece_ and yet be unable to effectively explain how they accomplish any particular portion of the work since the actual process became so automatic that no real thought need be devoted to _how_ its done. Even though I absolutely do *not* use my own artwork to make ends meet (and I'm _nowhere_ near DC's skill level), a quick look back at my own gallery reveals that the last purely recreational pic I posted was a year ago, and more than half of what I posted between then and now were commissions o_O (the rest were scans of 20+ year old drawings I put up as historical pieces). Under some _very_ loose definitions, that makes me a "professional" (scary thought). That said, while I wouldn't attempt to do a tutorial for the same reasons DC puts forth, I have played loosey-goosey with that standard when I felt I could explain a generalized technique to someone well enough to make their next effort come out just a _little_ better than their last one.

I’m not an artist, but I feel like the main reason people view professional artists in higher regard and ask for tutorials is simply because the difference between someone decent or even amateur at art is so much higher than the general public who probably can’t even draw more than a stick figure. Pretty much everyone is forced to cook in order to actually eat, so the baseline skill of the general public for cooking is significantly higher. No one is forced to make art because creativity is not a core “we need this to literally survive” thing. Because of this, an amateur artist compared to the average person is probably about as higher skilled than a 5-star restaurant chef is to the average person literally just due to the fact that most people are so bad at art because it’s not ever necessary to create

As an illustrative, non-art-related, example I can provide from my studies, here in Australia we have a nationally recognised certification/recognition program for expert engineers that distinguishes them from professional engineers. This certification requires the engineer to have a minimum amount of experience and demonstrate their competency in every element relevant to their area of expertise. This certification explicitly states that one of the hallmarks of expert engineers is that they are capable of teaching other engineers at a professional standard. This is not to say that professional engineers cannot teach junior engineers at a similar standard; many do. This is simply recognising that expert engineers can teach all of the relevant, objectively correct skills and practices because they have been entrusted with this authority. I am not suggesting that we should strictly codify a set of standards that we can use to benchmark people against. Engineering has these standards because there's usually a right and wrong answer but, as we know, art is far more flexible. Instead, I want to highlight the fact that the engineering community in Australia sought to empower the status of expert engineers and imbued them with the trust of the community. I think we can benefit from doing the same by promoting those who we can collectively agree as experts so that they can serve as trusted sources of art education.

I really want to thank you for this video! Its nice to hear from another artist who speaks so eloquently about this topic! I have always felt a bit of guilt turning down people's requests for art tutorials. I have never felt comfortable doing them. Part of it might be the fact that I also deem myself to just be an "intermediate" artist and I don't feel qualified to teach art as I still have a lot to learn as well. I also find that just because I know how to do something doesn't mean I know how to articulate it in a way that can be explained to others. So thank you for your perspective and insight into this topic! It really puts me at ease! Also love the artwork of Len! The colours look so pretty together and look so vibrant! Kind of reminds me of an album cover too🍀✨

It’s also important to note that just being an expert in a field doesn’t mean you will be good at teaching it. When I was getting my math degree, I consistently observed that the professors who seemed the smartest/most advanced in their fields were the WORST at actually teaching anything. The practice of teaching is a skill to be developed in itself and not necessarily related to one’s skill level in a particular field. I admire your self-awareness in everything you discussed. Great video as always 👏👏

WAHH IM SO EXCITED TO WATCH THIS

I completely agree and I think this is an extremely important conversation that we as a community should be having. I've actually never actually thought about this before, but it makes so much sense now that you mention it. There should obviously be a difference between how we treat advice coming from professional artists versus how we treat advice coming from experts. It is as @RailRide says in their comment: just because you can do something well doesn't mean you can teach it well. One of the hallmarks of being an expert is being able to teach others objectively correct information. I am reminded of the video on art roasts and art fixing where a lot of the 'critiques' were not constructive and oftentimes erased perfectly valid stylistic choices because the critic was not qualified or skilled enough to distinguish mistakes from style. However, because we often conflate confidence with competence, many of us (myself included) treated advice from non-experts as gospel by virtue of their authoritative delivery. We as a community need to be more critical of the type of advice we perpetuate and share to avoid spreading misinformation that might negatively impact impressionable young artists such as myself. As an illustrative, non-art-related, example I can provide from my studies, here in Australia we have a nationally recognised certification/recognition program for expert engineers that distinguishes them from professional engineers. This certification requires the engineer to have a minimum amount of experience and demonstrate their competency in every element relevant to their area of expertise. This certification explicitly states that one of the hallmarks of expert engineers is that they are capable of teaching other engineers at a professional standard. This is not to say that professional engineers cannot teach junior engineers at a similar standard; many do. This is simply recognising that expert engineers can teach all of the relevant, objectively correct skills and practices because they have been entrusted with this authority. I am not suggesting that we should strictly codify a set of standards that we can use to benchmark people against. Engineering has these standards because there's usually a right and wrong answer but, as we know, art is far more flexible. Instead, I want to highlight the fact that the engineering community in Australia sought to empower the status of expert engineers and imbued them with the trust of the community. I think we can benefit from doing the same by promoting those who we can collectively agree as experts so that they can serve as trusted sources of art education.

Another thing to consider is that while some professional artists might be extremely skilled that doesn't always translate to being good at teaching.

I honestly wouldn't mind an educational vid over how you do marketing. Im a very introverted artist and I STRUGGLE with putting myself out there and hope my sheer skill can carry the load but I know for a fact it isnt enough. So i would love a vid from you with that

Not even the college I went to knows what it takes to be an art teacher. A lot of the classes I had were highschool redunancies and none of them where about how to teach. You think something like "plan a curriculum" would be a part of it. They told me that teachers just learn a lil bit of everything then get put into openings (This was in southern Oregon). RL stuff forced me to end that career before I could even really start. I did come away from the experience with some teaching advice. Came from a pottery teacher. That you should write down your process and why you do it. Then use that for the basis of creating a plan. Forcing yourself to think of the whys helps explain the hows. Which ended up being why I stopped trying for my degree after RL settled down. I dont like to think when I draw. I just wanna vibe That being said, you are a teacher. It may not be in techniques or tutorials, but you are doing research and presenting what you learned in that pursuit to any who sit down in your "lecture hall." We all come away a little bit smarter; if not, at least entertained.

As an average artist I 💯 agree with this! And I think its a problem on both sides, both the consumer and producer. I follow a lot of artists who post videos "this is how you do x" and speak very authoratative versus "this is what I did/my experience/what I've researched and here are my sources." It always irks me especially when there's misinformation/their situation is different than the common artist.

Honestly. I love your points about art tutorials. If I as I was in your shoes I wouldn't be comfortable if somebody asked me to do art tutorials. Especially that as so much free videos and things that are much better at explaining things like Proko. While personally I don't like the whole idea of "master artist" and what have you because art and "being good at it" is all about how much practice you put into it. Especially if it's as subjective as art. Personally I think people who should make tutorials are those who are scholars regarding art and know the objective facts. Art is complex and beautiful like that. I think tutorials in how to draw in a certain style if different than art tutorials in general. I tend to draw in a stylized cartoon art style and stylization tends to break some of the established rules. While it's absolutely ok to draw stylized and break some of the established rules. Tutorials should be done by socials who can deliver the facts as it is. After all, art can be something you can learn for your entire life. Even people who has been doing it for years is still learning. Awesome video like normal.

celestia MY GIRL i seriusly have to respect every art topic you put in your channel, unique yet informative, i love it man, must be so difficult planning out your topics and ideas while baalncing work and life and self doubt but YOU'RE DOING IT! thank u for serving us lovely strangers with ur existance fr

Some of the worst art advice I’ve ever been given was by “professionals” with degrees

You're way better than "average", I think you should give yourself more credit because your art is awesome :D I loved the Len artwork in this video too!

To be completely honest, I don’t seek out “professionals” for tutorials. Though there are values in learning the fundamentals and understanding the rules well enough to break them, there’s also extreme joy in simply having fun with art. Art, for me, isn’t always methodical. It’s about expressing one’s heart and soul and connecting with others without uttering a single word. Studying endlessly can sometimes lead to self-doubt and frustration, especially when you struggle to grasp certain concepts or compare your work to others’. I’ve experienced this to the point where I stopped creating art for over two years, a decision I’ve since regretted. This is my point-of-view, shaped by my own experiences and learning disability, which hinders my understanding of things. I often need to hear explanations multiple times to grasp even a small part of a concept, and I find that I learn best by doing. There’s a certain freedom in learning from someone who doesn’t label themselves a “professional.” Their joy is palpable in their art and their tutorials. People might seek for you to do tutorials because they resonate with your art style and want to learn how to embrace it, improve upon it, or simply gain inspiration to better their own work. Even though I struggle with explaining things and my own self-doubt about my art, I still try my hardest to teach others my style. If they end up surpassing me, I take pride in knowing I played a part in their artistic journey, regardless of whether it’s deemed “professional.” :)

I just spent this past week being a substitute teacher for the first time for my old instructor's current class. I think regardless of how I feel about my art skills and teaching abilities, others can see your potential better than yourself. My teacher was confident enough to trust me to look after his students in his place, that in itself was a confidence boost.

i don't think anyone needs to be an expert or professional to make art tutorials, cus at the end of the day, there is no right or wrong way to draw. that being said, if you are not comfortable with making art tutorials, that is valid and fine! awesome video as always; i've been watching your videos for years, but i'm surprised that i wasn't subscribed yet! so i fixed that :D

this video was oddly comforting :), its nice to just know that to be a professional artist I don't really need to be a "good" artist. Its pretty silly but its just nice to know I guess, I really value your opinion celestia, hope that pesky impostor sindrom leaves one day!

Len looks so freaking adorable :) You made him pop out with these vibrant colors. They especially suit Vocaloid characters. And the topic of the new video also spoke to me. Thank you very much!

I'm one of those artists that needed to here that I do not have to be exceptional to pursue art professionally, so thank you!

Me: ~graduates art collage, gets an art job~ Lady at CrackerBarrel: ~Sees me sketching in my artbook~ Ohhh! An aspiring artist! = u = Me: >_>;;;; What is said here lines up lol

Best and Most Humane Art channel I’ve found in a while. Keep up the good work Celestia.

As an artist myself, I totally get not wanting to make tutorials! People sometimes don't understand that teaching is a different skill set, and not everyone has those skills. I myself find it quite difficult to help my fellow artist friends with their art, even though I really want to help in any way I can.

Letssss go new vid!

Brb, gonna wait until sponsorship block finally works on this video

Perfect timing, I just came home ^^

Rob Liefeld proves the point of the title. Bro's a professional yet cant draw anatomy very good like at all

mood, I absolutely agree with you. Feel the same when people ask me about making tutorials. I just see so many things in my art that I should improve on, especially since I do actually lack some fundamentals despite being a professional artist, and I would rather have people look at the experts I also like to learn from instead of trying to learn what I do. It's flattering, but I just don't feel qualified to make tutorials. Nor do I have the time and energy to do so. That said, great video!

I think this topic is very interesting. I’ve only made 2 tutorials and that was because I was kinda pressured by some random who messaged me on every social I had at the time. So I just made it so they’d leave me alone. I can’t say that it was the best, but it’s still getting reblogs on my Tumblr…..which is insane to me because it’s not the best… What I think would make a good tutorial is not how to most accurately draw or replicate something, but rather show an often overlooked trick or shortcut. The tutorial I did was on how to draw feet, and some of the tips I give I’d say weren’t the best, and some I realized were true, but there’s more to it than just what it is.

I can relate to this to a degree, I'm only a casual artist, sketch artist, I do it as a hobby. I'm not the best, but I'm not hot garbage either, more the middle of the pack kind of deal. It's always odd to me when people tell me my art's good and then ask me how I do it. As much of an honor it is to know people like what I put to paper the best I can ever offer is a shrug and to tell them I just have been drawing since I was little. This usually becomes a back and forth discussion, but I honestly can't truly understand how someone could think I'm capable of giving genuine advise when it comes to art let alone teach or give a tutorial. I simply draw things, it's what I do and I'm glad others can see value in my art, where as I can only see where I need to improve. I've always liked watching your videos and I have mad respects for you as a professional, thank you for being a great artist and an awesome RU-vidr 😎👍

0:20 I would _love_ to be able to draw the way you do. I've never successfully followed an art tutorial in my life, though, LOL.

I personally can draw really good, sometimes. And basically every time I try to recreate how it looked, it always looks so much worse, so like, all my advice would be “just go with the flow, and sometimes it can look good” or some shiz

The thing is, it's more about are you able to explain your techniques to others or not. You are able to draw better than a beginner and draw in a specific way. As someone who gets paid to do art for others but not enough make a full living, I can very easily teach others how I draw. However, I also understand that you just don't feel comfortable teaching others which in my opinion is more the case with you not wanting to do tutorials. This is valid. If you know how to draw a car, you can teach someone to drive a car. You don't have to be a nascar driver. TLDR: It's not about qualification or professionalism, it's about communication. However comfort level is also valid.

13:26 okay this touched my actual interest. And is that, actually, is very VERY hard that you can get an art related job by only drawing nice or being the best artist on the world. Some people internet bassed here is gonna hate it but, you need to make contacts if you want to work for an empress. Start small, investigate and learn who would be able to give you a tip for improving your portfolio, search everywere for see who would be able to hire you. If you known some familiar who knows somenone who may need an artist, better. Enchufism is very common on jobs. And actually known how to convince others for choose you and no other people. In a world full of artists, just the smartest will get the job they wanted.

I agree. I've watched youtube tutorials and some of them were teaching bad habits. The best way is to watch professionals that emphasize the fundamentals and realism tbh (I wasn't a believer of learn the rules before breaking them, falling into the "bUT MY arTSTylE" trap until I actually tried and improved beautifully). Sinixdesigns tutorials are also great and honestly the only ones that's worked for me in a way I liked.

personal hot take: Professional art is bland and probably boring most of the time because it doesn’t have the charm of indie/hobbyist’s artists. y’all agree or i’m alone in this?

we love you duchess celestia you use so much critical thinking your videos give me hope for art youtube

I'd really enjoy stylistic tutorials from you! I was going to suggest maybe more casual tips and techniques you like kinda videos before you brought them up. Either way, I'll keep coming back for your content ✨

"... you get your job after getting your qualification..." *weeps in film-grad*

Hey good business woman, would you consider making business and marketing tutorials for artists? Anyway, you expose an intersting point of view about teaching skills and working skills, it makes sense. However, I also think that if a person is not a master but knows a few things about a topic, they can teach it to a person that knows nothing about that topic. It's like students in classrooms helping each other: none of them is the teacher who knows the whole school program, but if one understands the lesson, they can explain it to a classmate who didn't, and that's enough.

That why I study EE. I need a career that make sense and has natural stability both financially and mentality.

With mediocre artists come mediocre commissioners, who are satisfied with good enough. And here we are: in mediocrity-based world, more than ever.

I feel the same I’d say I’m also intermediate at best and I had a recent commissioner ask if I’d ever consider doing tutorials. I love drawing (my channel is proof) but like I don’t think I am comfortable enough in my skills to do tutorials either.

As someone who just got hired today as an artist and am now officially a “professional artist”. I just got to say this couldn’t of come at a better time to check my ego lol

Another thing, is that someone can be a good artist and want to teach others, but also be unable to teach/explain things, which isn't a bad thing! Breaking down a process and teaching it to others is a whole-ass entire other skill set!

I think by the time I will be satisfied with my art skill, I'll have no idea how I got there 😂

i think this false equilency of proffesionals being experts has made me reluctant to pursue becoming a professional artist because well my art isnt good enough yet. ive been telling myself this for years and only now started to kinda pursue it even tho i still think my art is just passable

And I'm going to take it a step farther for *any* field: Not all experts are good teachers. Teaching a subject is a wholey different set of skills that sometimes cause a lot of misconceptions. It's like that for art, it's like that for music, it's like that for writing, it's defeantly like that for being a doctor or even a lawyer. There are some experts that don't make for good teachers no matter what you do. Also people may be good at teaching at one thing, but not in the other. A person may know how to *really* get into details of teaching buissness where it's understandable for the average person, but that same person wouldn't know how to explain how their art looks the way they do other than "I'm inspired by these art styles" or "I do eyes this way because I struggle with something". It's why for a while there were teachers that us millenials would complain about because we experienced a better art teacher than the one that would be a professonal and saw themselves an expert.... but were *awful* in knowing how to teach the subject matter for someone who didn't do art school, or that teacher wouldn't know how to answer very important questions to help us improve. College for me in the arts wasn't how my high school teacher tried to make it out (but I also didn't go to an art dedicated school either. I went to BC for two years and FAU for my last two years), and if anything I *improved* my art outside of that one teacher's class by going to professonals that *did* know how to teach and work with me when I asked questions on how to do something, even before college. Especually if that teacher don't enjoy teaching that particular subject in the first place.

When I think of a professional artist, I still think that they’re really good at art. If they know lighting, composition, how anatomy works, and other complex artsy things, then they should incorporate it in their art imo. Depends on what you define by „mediocre art”. I think mediocre art is very hard to explain. Since there are so many diverse art styles and such. But imo, mediocre art is an artist that doesn’t incorporate basic stuff like lighting, basic anatomy, design, and other things into their art. But tbh, we’ve all been there. I’m a mediocre artist myself, I’m still on that journey. And so are professionals. But I feel like some professionals are ways ahead on that journey, y’know? Someone that does art for a living, I just feel like they should be better than mediocre at art. Just my opinion though. We can all respectfully agree to disagree. :)

Was anyone else dying waiting for her to fix that right hand?

With as many game studios/publishers (mostly publishers) as there are right now courting AI, "video game artist" jobs of all stripes are fading away, becoming less and less viable as career options.

Some “pros” just slap some commentary on a personal project and sell it as a tutorial.

So the overall takeaway I'm hearing is - Being a professional artist does not equate to being an art teacher, same way a professional sports athlete does not equate to being a sports coach. Education is a whole other skill set.

Weoww I'm here within 3 minutes

Also skill and teaching ability aren't always correlated, you don't need to master art to be able to teach art same with all the other professions. Yes it's good to have teachers who are well versed in their field, but there are still some teachers in all fields who weren't even professionals at what they teach.

I can’t teach- I can’t explain or convey my knowledge I can only show ppl :’)

unrelated but i love the vocaloid speedpaints ^^

What is with creatives and thinking we suck. Yes, I know my attempts at writing is crap, but still...

also..not only aren't most professionals experts, most experts aren't teachers too...Making a great tutorial is a specific skill entirely

You're a good businesswoman? Is there any chance we could get a tutorial on how to get started with social media marketing? Not what to do with a platform you already have - what to do on day one, with zero followers and almost zero chance the algorithm will show your stuff to anyone.

square space should just appoint duchess to there brand ambassador allready, cmon suqare space dont cheap out

I feel like this problem is exasperated by the fact that being good at something doesn’t mean you can teach it. Teaching is a skill. You have to transfer your knowledge in a way someone can understand it while not dumbing it down to be something else. Someone may have decades of experience with art and be in the industry, but they may be a horrible teacher.

very informative video, i thought profesional artist meant something different, im an artist and have artist as a job irl, i sell traditional art irl, i guess im a profesional artist? well nice video!

I don't think you need to be a professional or an expert to make tutorials. I think people are asking you specifically to make a tutorial is because they like you and your style. They want to learn how you do something. For instance, if someone does their hair the way you like, and have a similar hair type to yours, it's absolutely reasonable to want to learn from them, even if they are not a hair stylist. Also people already are familiar with the way you narrate, the editing style etc, so they think it will be easier to learn from you simply because of your personality. The best teacher is the one that's best for you, because if you don't like someone way of teaching, and it's not effective for you personally, you will never learn.

I mean even if you're really really good educating people about something is a completely different skill from doing the thing.

maybe or maybe not off topic but i dislike the 'you're so talented!' compliment

That's just depressing.

I don’t do tutorials because I see so many copycats out there who steal styles that I want my style to stay unique. If I start doing tutorials, I’m afraid someone will steal my style. I’m totally fine with people using my art as a reference for some ideas but I don’t want people tracing or trying to use my style as their own. Art recourses are supposed to support your own style, not for your style to transform into the artist you are referencing.

I dont mind sharing tips, but im not a teacher and find just making tutorials boring

8 min gang uwu

This not applies to art only. My theater teacher told us that once a very recognizable actor was her professor for a while... He didn't even prepared the classes, all was pure inprovisations. She didn't learn anything from that proffessor Being a master on something doesn't necessary means that you can teach somenthing. Teaching things is an art and not everyone are able to do that

Always remember that Bobby Chiu ceo of Schoolism didn't hire those artists such as Karla Ortiz because they are good teacher. Bobby hire them because they are popular and have many followers which translate more money.

OK ARTIST!?!!?! What are you yapping about

if you're "just ok" at art, then would that mean that the people at lower skill levels are bad at art? i don't think classifying it in this way is helpful. beginner, intermediate, expert, yeah i can get on board with that. but saying that someone's more or less good at art of all things, is just gonna be demotivating for anyone who's not exceptionally good.

You know, this is actually such a good video for helping people realize they can do art as a job. It's me, I'm people 🥲

I completely agree and I think this is an extremely important conversation that we as a community should be having. I've actually never actually thought about this before, but it makes so much sense now that you mention it. There should obviously be a difference between how we treat advice coming from professional artists versus how we treat advice coming from experts. It is as @RailRide says in their comment: just because you can do something well doesn't mean you can teach it well. One of the hallmarks of being an expert is being able to teach others objectively correct information. I am reminded of the video on art roasts and art fixing where a lot of the 'critiques' were not constructive and oftentimes erased perfectly valid stylistic choices because the critic was not qualified or skilled enough to distinguish mistakes from style. However, because we often conflate confidence with competence, many of us (myself included) treated advice from non-experts as gospel by virtue of their authoritative delivery. We as a community need to be more critical of the type of advice we perpetuate and share to avoid spreading misinformation that might negatively impact impressionable young artists such as myself.