*A key point in this video is the overview of the new oil pickup design at **10:40**. This is why I think (emphasis on think :D ) this whole RTV in the oil pickup siutation may not be as disastrous as it has seemed in recent weeks.*
agree, thought that was the most important part of the video, gave me some reassurance about going forward with my 23 GR 86 purchase next month. Thanks
On the FA24, the failures I came across were usually show a single bad journal bearing.... If it was oil starvation due to a clogged oil pickup or other cause of starvation, you usually see damage to all the journal bearings. However, it is possible that a chunk of RTV can break off, get chewed up by the oil pump while the filter is in bypass mode, and those small chewed up pieces get lodged in an oil passage somewhere. Or possibly extended low pressure with a poor designed oil delivery system, exacerbated by small pieces of RTV in the system.
I’ve owned a GR86 for 6 months now. And every time I drive it I am so impressed! It’s a much better car than my old 2013 FRS! Also great video showing the oil pickup screen as a box and not just a flat screen. I’m relieved to see that and I hope other owners are too!
I’d be pretty surprised if Toyota/Subaru was to allow this issue continue into 2024. I’d hope they’re already looking for a proper fix. They’re usually on the ball.
Don’t be so sure they kept putting there bad steering racks for years in there 4 runners the old steer wheel flutter the Lexus Gxs got there’s replaced
I appreciate that you posted a picture of the old and new oil pick up tube. That helped ease my mind, but I still have an appointment with subaru later today and they will be removing my oil pan.
Can you update your comment with your findings? I haven't heard a single BRZ owner report this problem yet, which is strange considering both gr86 & BRZs are built the same.
Sure I can update it when they tell me what they find. There are plenty of forums and ppl reporting that the new 2022 wrx also has this silicone problem as well.
I was an aircraft mechanic in the air force and we used to use red rtv on aircraft engines because it can hold up to high heat in flight my guess is that Toyota realizes that a 4 cyl engine runs a lot hotter than a 6 or an 8 cyl and the rtv can last longer than a traditional gasket
Great video. Very interested to see you drop the pan again to see if there's more material. If it's clean, I would absolutely be happy with this being a 1 time fix (drop pan, clean pickup, re-seal).
Well done Justin. Thank you for keeping an open mind and relying on science and facts. We will see what happens in the next couple years. A reasonable solution could be Toyota and Subaru increase the warranty to 150k miles
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this hot topic. Great video that really grounds the issue and puts things into perspective. I'm still waiting for the VIN on my ordered '23 BRZ with an August ETA, and have no plans to cancel.
Thanks, Justin! We all appreciate your information. I was concerned about ordering one. I feel like the new oil pickup design alleviates my concern. Please post a follow up on this second video once you know more info!
I have a 22 gr86 automatic I bought it 2months ago I already put almost 6 k miles on it. The car is my only and my everyday work car. I doordash and ect. in it. My 86 does 23.5 gas mileage mostly city. I only pay 30 to 35 for a full tank of 93. I Changed the oil once at toyota at 4500m I plan on changing the oil again at around 8500. When I do I will check my oil pan and tube at dealership. I'm going to see if I can look at it my self when they drop it. Also I'll either have them check the filter for debree. I have a strong feeling there will be rtv or silicone.But I hope cleaning it every 2 oil changes will do the trick. I used to own a 17 camry so I really love this car. I will keep an update on your 86 .
Much appreciated, I got this car a few weeks ago just as a daily driver, no tracking on my end. Obviously it'll still be something I ask to have looked at when up for maintenance, but I'm going to enjoy the car and not panic over it.
I think about other factors. 0W-20 is not the best for an on track, high oil temp environment. Oil level, very important on track with high G forces especially on sweepers. Mechanical over revs, this happens quite a bit. Adding an oil pressure gauge with warning light would help identify pressure issues hopefully before damage.
I agree, all good points! Oil level is a big one for me as well. I'm going to be adding an oil pressure sensor/gauge here soon, so I can start logging data at the tracks I race at.
Thanks for your thoughts @10:40. I have a deposit on a 23 brz and wasn’t sure what to think. Now I’m actually okay with it and not really worried about it.
I luv the BRZ, but the engineering side of me would not let me proceed with my order for the 2023. It was officially canceled today, so there will be an xtra one on the market. I wish all of you the best of luck with your BRZ/GR86. Again, thanks for the great video.
Did you cancel any other brand car's order in this 2 years...? Because there is no any model or brand car in the world free of internet overrated problems. If I had to take any decition about to buy a car acording to what I see in youtube, I would have a bicycle instead of a car...
The previous generation pickup was just 1 screen .. So IF it got clogged, YES an issue would arise. This new screen has multiple "windows" for multiple paths for the oil to flow thru. Like building a house with 1 window vs having 4 windows for improved air flow.
@@TheBTRGarage apparently ... about a month ago some guy posted that his gr86 with only 1k miles had a clogged oil pickup. He dropped the pan and all 5 walls were clogged with rtv but NOT from the oil pan because he dropped it and re-did it with just enough to seal it. His oil light came on and thats how he knew something was wrong.
Thank you for doing this video. I look forward to the follow up video. I do not thing this is going to be a huge issue and it has gotten blown up. But on the other side it is not right to have RTV in the oil. So I am glad everybody is on this. See! the internet can be used for good not just evil! :)
I'm with you on this:) like you said it's a very small issue if it's any issue at all but people just have different levels of tolerance or understanding for this. Me as a GR86 owner for 6 months and did 10+ track days on this car never worried a bit about this.
Time will tell how bad of an issue this is. With the new oil pick up design, it might not be an issue for those that have bought it brand new, however, it might for later years with more miles and not knowing how much and where exactly the silicone is coming from can still make this a big issue. For now, based on his opinion and new oil pick up design, we can enjoy our brand new cars but again age will tell the true depth of this issue.
This makes me think of the uproar over IMS bearings in the Porsches. My 2007 cayman s has the bearing and no issues knock on wood) The failure was blown out of proportion. failure was .01%. My gr86 has 3k on it. Pulled the pan. Zero issue. BUT they did over do the sealant. Did a smaller amount. To your point, they use the sealant in so many other places. I do really like the oil pickup design. To those canceling your orders, it’s a mistake. One of the best budget 2 doors, rwd sports cars. So much to be happy about with this 2gen. Like you, I have a 2018 brz that I race with scca, nasa and WRL.
Unless there's full detailed reports on the blown engines and what may have caused it, it seems the owner automatically assumed it was the RTV in the oil pick up that caused the failure because that's what he remembered was an issue from the previous generation. It's possible his engine oil level was very low combined with high G cornering and a slightly restricted oil tube was the recipe for disaster. Does the oil pan need baffles to help keep the oil from moving around too much? Maybe it was an oil pump failure etc. What im saying is more investigation needs to be done on the blown engines instead of assuming the cause was some rtv in the pick up tube box which has clearly been designed to take some blockage. What the community needs to do is try and obtain a report from the owner supplied by toyota describing the failure and repair in detail.
Right, all we really know is there was a correlation between a spun bearing and RTV in the pickup. It doesn't mean the engine blew as a result of that...contributed, possibly, but really hard to prove.
We blown up FA20 way before recall issue and RTV stuf. I am sure the FA24 is very sensible to oil temperature. Combined with low oil pressure oil and ....kaboum !
It's 2023... can't they just configure the robots to use the right amount of RTV and not too much? I thought the process of applying RTV would be more refined by now.
Make aluminum oil pan for both gens of the car, with a trap panel right under the oil pickup. Open up that panel and clean out at every oil change. There's a way to make money there.
To me it don't matter if you doing high rpm or daily driving if the rtv gets clog up in the pickup tube of course its gonna have oil starvation n rtv going in the engine where its not supposed to go to the engine will blow up with no oil going through and yeah the timing cover is gonna cause problem to with all the rtv on it . I think from manufacturer they didn't do a good job putting the rtv they probably didn't bother to check if there too much rtv on it
A lot has has to do with the type of rtv they use. Many many cars have excess rtv. My vq35 had big area where rtv was showing with the pan off. 18 years and nothing came off. Nissan brand rtv and Honda bond are the best.
I agree, I'm no fan of boxer engines either...the new FA24 is at least better than the previous gen engine by a pretty big margin (stupid issues like RTV in oil pickups aside 😜)
So this is a problem from the prior gen and no one complained about it and they made it better with the new design sounds like people need to witch hunt.
Someone needs to make a new oil pan or modify the oil pan to allow the screen to be cleaned without having to remove the entire oil pan every time. A portal of sorts at the pickup so you can easily see straight into the oil pickup screen .
Doesn’t matter if it’s warranty it will continue to happen to many ppl and might not get warranty , yes your motor will be destroyed if there is a lack of oil being block off from oil flow there is no denying that blocked off lol gives low oil pressure
All this RTV stuff is causing me to overlook buying one of these. Local specialist stores near me quoting $660 to clean it up - which is probably fine if its a one time thing but this seems to be a necessary routine maintenance item........
Check my follow up video where I pulled the pan a 2nd time. There was only some tiny specs found in the pickup (after my initial cleaning). I honestly wouldn't even worry about it. There are so many people racing and beating on the cars w/out issue, and they haven't touched the pickup. Since I've posted this video, time is proving it was way overblown originally.
Why is it that I have not seen any Subaru BRZ owners reporting this? I’ve only seen GR86 with this report this issue and BRZ has been out for longer time. I’m sure there are many more BRZ out there with more miles. They are made in same factory and use mostly same parts but haven’t seen any brz owners reporting this. At least Subaru is better with customer service
Not sure, there have been far fewer BRZ's sold, could be one reason. Also, nobody would have ever even thought to check the oil pickup if there wasn't an engine failure, which is when everyone started checking/worrying. But you're right, the BRZ should have the same issue. Although the fact that we haven't heard about it from BRZ owners, lends evidence to the idea that it is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. Time will tell...
Great video. Thank you. I canceled my order based on this issue. . Somewhat regret it but I can’t service it like you so I was stressed about it. I may reorder next year. Live in Northeast so would not want to take delivery in winter anyway. May wait for 2024 too although I doubt this gets addressed unless it is a simple fix with application process. As you mentioned, silicone is an issue in Gen1 too. 🙄. Thank you again.
Is it possible to replace the oil strainer / pickup tube with one that has a larger external filter? That wouldn't fix the issue, but would lessen the chance of a complete blockage, and also give the silicone a chance to be flushed out during an oil change
How about the amount of blockage the silicone is causing? THAT is the biggest factor in the recent FA24 motor failures. You can baby your car but if you have 85%+ blockage (causing pump starvation-aka cavitation) that alone can wipe out a bearing, bearing spins in bore and cause "knock". Pretty basic chit imo
Take a look at the oil pickup design in the 10:40 section. Assuming the top screen on the filter is totally clogged, that's only 20% blockage. The 2022 oil pickup filter appears to be designed to function with RTV stuck on the top section of the screen. On the old gen cars oil pickup design, what you said is totally accurate.
@@TheBTRGarage AHHH, I was listening in the background at work. After WATCHING you are absolutely correct, and thank God for the new pickup design. Seems like engineers took measures to correct from 1st gen failures. Hmm, that is interesting thank you very much for pointing this out! New design must have 4-5X the surface area, but I wish it was a bit finer in "pore" size.
Would you rather have a "Ford Pinto" situation? The manufacturer chooses the numbers over the customer. Subaru/Toyota factor the amount of engine failures during the warranty period (due to oil starvation) is a lot less (money/replacement wise) than issuing a recall and looking at/dripping pan/fixing ever car brought in to the dealer which is 100s of tech-hours and 1000s of (?) costing $M. Ethics and values. What is the ethical thing to do? What does that (ultimately) say about the company. (Franchise) Dealers will be caught in the middle.
Right, I'm guessing it will go through some sort of "dollars and cents" process to weigh the various options. I had a section recorded on just that, but decided to leave it out of the video cause I don't think I have enough real info (basically % failure per X amount of cars, what is expectation, and what determines warranty/repair/etc).
You took off the oil pan, you had to pry it off, that Silicone had not broken off and was stuck like glue. That should be the same everywhere so the question is where?? I’d guess the timing chain cover as any breaking off could be chewed up by the chain and sent down to the oil pan. The screens are not blocked and yes pieces are there but enough to block the oil?? Spun bearing can happen with extreme over revving and also with heavier oil that could be used on the track. Just my thoughts
50k? There has been less than 30k 2022+ GR86/BRZ sold in the US. That aside, I'm pretty sure anyone who has inspected their pickup has had some amount of RTV in it.
My gr86 engine or transmission sounded bad right now (sounded like a puff )that is why I’m watching this video, I was going at a regular 35 mph and all of a sudden my dashboard showed all these lights and the check engine light came up everytime I tried doing more than 3k rpm my car wouldn’t go faster and this was in public (1 hour before this comment) I am still waiting for the tow truck that is covered under the gr86 warranty, also as I was turning off my car my engine took forever to turn off and my car sounded like it couldn’t breather it was idling too much and the exhaust sound like bad bad farts like sort of like the engine couldn’t breathe
@@ebdbdave I'm no wngine builder or engineer, but I would say no. The issue causing failures is poor oiling/oil pressure in the engine, not RTV in the pickup
As an engine builder I can say the amount of RTV being found in the pick up wouldn’t cause any problems. If there’s a link to a video with a blocked pick up please link me. That said the reason to use RTV is because of how stable it is in comparison to a gasket. It has a very long service life and is much better than a traditional rubber or fiberous gasket. Most Japanese manufacturers have been solely using RTV since the 80s for anything oil related that isn’t high pressure and doesn’t need to be serviceable, so this isn’t a new phenomenon by any means. Lastly I’ll say that this RTV wouldn’t be dislodging from around the pan as has been suggested but likely from around the timing case. Excess likely ends up touching the chain on assembly and is pulled free on first crank. The bulges seen inside the sump is completely normal and you’ll find that across all makes and models. As said the unique part of this issue is the timing case as it’s a very tight tolerance area and it would be the easiest spot for the silicon to contaminate the inner cavities.
Thanks for the great insight! I agree the RTV being found in the pickups should not be a big issue. I have yet to see the whole pickup blocked either, it's always just the top screen. Which in that case, oil should still be able to get around the other 4 parts of the pickup filter screens. I guess time will tell how this all unfolds.
@@phillipmoon3369 As it was stated, the new design, if clogged, would account for a 20% blockage. There is enough oil getting to the engine then. There have been no videos or pictures showing RTV on the sides of the screens.
@@brianb7844 I agree the blockage on inspected vehicles with low milage shows around 20% restriction, but that does not mean 20% is the maximum or upper range. When you consider time and milage in the equation, additional material can break off at any time, especially at higher milage after warranty has expired. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to inspect or clean out, and there is no gauge to monitor oil pressure! There are few if any New car buyers that want to purchase this liability. Instead of solving the root cause of the problem, XS RTV in internals, Subaru chose the piss poor engineering method of increasing the size of a screen, and then further failed to install an inspection/clean out port. This is a no brainer. They screwed themselves.
In addition, thank you very much for the video. It was insightful as were many like it. I am canceling my order for the 2023 BRZ. Even though I love the car, this is simply an unacceptable liability and gives me concern about QC/management/engineering interactions and decision making.
My opinions; 1. I've witnessed RTV (lodged in the pick-up) starve and subsequently kill an engine at idle. 2. The dealer tore Blake's engine apart & the damage was due to oil starvation, failure has to be blamed on the RTV - it only had 14k miles. 3. I wouldn't buy this car after RTV fiasco, cancel orders & go see Miata. 4. Interesting oil pick-up design, it didn't seem to save Blake's engine however. 5. I hate boxer engines, I wish Toyota would have jammed an 8ar in there! 😁
Don't take a Subaru to a Toyota delarship to begin with. That's a Lexus/Toyota transmission and they can "rebuild" relatively well but that's just about. The rest of the car is pretty-much Subaru. If you think you can't take the 86/FRS to Subaru, then don't buy the toyota variant in the first place. But if you work on your own car, then it doesn't matter. Toyota mechanics are not know for boxer engines. Subaru mechanics work on them all day long. And for using a gasket, Inline and V engines have a mono block goin to the pan. There is insignificant issues with tolerance, expansion and micro shifts within the mating surface. Subaru blocks and most Porsche boxers as well are split right in the middle. So you have multiple mating surfaces around the oil-pan / dry-sump. RTV is a much better sealant in these scenarios. It's more pliable, corrosion and heat-resistant. That's my engineering point of understanding. I don't work at either company, I just work on my own car. They use a crap ton of RTV is because the pan is a thing sheet of steel, it literally bends between bolts. They have to use more RTV on the assembliy line to seal it right. The best thing you can do is get a cast aluminium (thick) pan and use a very thin amount of RTV on it.
@@TheBTRGarage how about adding air pressure on the oil line going to the oil filter I believe pump is in between....wondering about condition that can push buildup back to the oil pan and get flush with oil even used but clean
In my opinion, it would be foolish to buy a new car knowing that RTV will most likely restrict oil flow. Low oil flow can cause premature wear and tear on an engine no matter if its a daily or track car. It would be beneficial to have an oil pressure gauge reading off discharge of filter. Also, there should have been a clean out option/port to access oil pickup tube other than dropping headers and oil pan. From an engineer's point of veiw, this is really embarassing to know a fellow engineer signed off on this design.
They did improve the oil pickup design over the previous gen though, see 10:40 mark. I almost think RTV in the pickup is an expected side effect, and the new pickup accounts for that, allowing oil flow around the RTV clog. Just a guess anyways...
More bothersome than the RTV issues, new and old, is Toyota’s response. Complete denial of responsibility wasn’t something I expected from them. Ask one of the hundreds (thousands?) of people that got to pay for a new motor.
Where are you getting this hundreds, or even thousands, of people that had to pay for a new motor number? I can count on my hands how many people have come forth with 2022 engine failures, and probably one hand at that. This is hugely misleading...
Overblown in the internet? Many many have found RTV in the pan and pickup. Toyota should have recalled all cars by now, dropped the pan, cleaned out and replaced the pickup tube. Sounds like you are in denial because you own one. I for one will PASS on this car
Why in the world would Toyota recall all cars for something that has 0 affect on...anything? That is absolute nonsense lol. The truth is that there are thousands of these cars on the road, people have been racing and abusing them for well over a year now, myself included, and 99.99% of them are perfectly fine.
@@TheBTRGarage My anger is with Toyota, not you - sorry. I guess the more prudent thing for Toyota to do would be to provide an extended engine warranty to put owners at ease. I agree that actual proven damage from RTV has likely affected an extremely small percentage of cars. However the incidence of finding RTV in the pickup tube is high. We may not know the full impact for some time. I am reminded of the Porsche IMS bearing weakness that to this day hangs over affected models.
Cannot believe your telling people to not cancel there orders I’m not gambling on it what ever reason if it failed and there denying warranties which is Toyota Mo not sure about Subaru latent design flaws oil cavitation you simply have a deeper larger oil pan baffled if need be there Supra’s big money wasted bmw engine with timing chain in rear of engine ridiculous design if only on paper
