@@DavidBallpianist Why should every pianist listen to this particular performance Mr. Ball? Because you were invited by Zoltan? So what? I played and performed with Vilmos Olah, star student of Laslo Denes and protege of Tamas Vasary? So what? This particular performance is no doubt a tour de force but certainly not on a par with Volodos or Leif Ove Andsnes..Void of the big lyrical lines, sacrificing immense beauty for the sake of speed. Rachmaninov played it also fast because HE HAD TO! In that time analogue recordings and putting it on the famous grammophone struggled with time issues. Rachmaninov NEVER intended it to be played that fast.Even Walter Gieseking was forced to speed up the tempi during his Ravel Integrale recording because of this particular issue. He was a close friend of my father so this is first hand information.
If you understand Rachmaninoff , you cannot discuss the tempo. This Concerto must and should be fast !!! If you can do it as a performer. Because Rachmaninoff composed to play that way. Zoltan perfectly understood Rachmaninoff.
Not to take anything away from Zoltan, but don't we have a recording of Rachmaninoff playing this?, and I don't think he played it this fast. Ok, I listened to Rach. playing it. Zoltan overall still adds 2 minutes compared to Rach. However, it seems that Zoltan plays the fast parts somewhat faster, and the slow parts more slowly than Rach. So I guess I'm saying that Rach. is more mid-range in his tempo. Maybe Zoltan just likes seeing the orchestra struggle ;-).
Hát ez valami egészen elképesztő! Igazán ritka kincs Fishert és Kocsist együtt látni dolgozni, zenélni! Mondjon bárki bármit, mégiscsak a magyar zene utóbbi két-három évtizedének a legnagyobb alakjait látjuk itt!
A bárki bármit mond nem mérvadó...akinek füle van, meghallja amit kell...Kocsis korának világszinten is egyik legnagyobb zongoristája, a magyar zenei élet utóbbi 40 évének legnagyobb jelentőségű alakja....
O my world , what a cadenza I,m so emotional and speechless , he gone too soon. His death is a huge loss in classical music , why all the brilliant ones go too soon
Another great loss to the music world--Kocsis was and still remains a pinnacle of pianism through recordings and legacy and I am sure through teaching. No histrionics and pretentious emoting-honest and believable.
The Only Pianist that Plays This Concerto At RACHMANINOFF’S Desired Tempo ! KOCSIS PUTS TODAYS COMPETITION PIANO WINNERS TO SHAME !!! He was on Par with Horowitz. His passing is a Huge loss to the Music World.
It's great that you know this! In 1928, when the composer and Vladimir Horowitz first met and played the Third together in the basement of Steinway Hall, SVR said "Gorovetz" was playing the first movement too slowly and told him to speed it up. This account was passed on by Steinway Artist Manager, Alexander Greiner (who was present at the occasion), to a young composer named Emilio Fuchs, who in turn related it to me. Regrettably, Van Cliburn 's 1958 Tchaikovsky Piano Competition's slow first movement and Brahmsian ossia (alternate) cadenza spawned an erroneous tradition which has typically persisted ever since, and even Horowitz did not fully follow Rachmaninoff's tempo wishes. But yes, Zoltan Kocsis has performed the whole thing at the proper tempo and right!
Finally, a modern player that does it at speed. His first movement (SFO, deWaart, 1984) is within seconds of Rachmaninov's. To play it slower sounds like a fanciful dirge--and it's accepted by most modern, lesser performers and conductors. Moog also plays it near R's tempo, and probably the best overall quality recording available. Since ZK died in 2016, Moog is the best living interpreter of this wonderful gem. Although much slower, I rate Ashkenazy, Previn, LSO, 1972 the 2nd best for recording quality and sheer expressiveness. Worth a listen. Argerich and Lugansky deserve honorable mention.
Many of todays pianists play it like a syrupy hollywood B movie soundtrack. Kocsis has plenty of emotion but it never becomes sentimental. His tempo in the outer movements is excellent.
I've heard more than 100 versions of this concerto, and this might just be the most exciting one of all. What an incredible performance. A rapid tempo, to be sure, but in Kocsis' hands it doesn't feel rushed at all to these ears; perhaps we're just accustomed to hearing it at slower tempi. Anyhow, I like this version even better than the one Kocsis did with de Waart. Thank you so much for uploading it.
His speed is impressive, but the 1st movement sounds rushed. I admit I've been conditioned by other recordings, but I do appreciate hearing that opening theme at a more deliberate pace. Lightning speed doesn't make for a better performance necessarily. Yunchan's version was very satisfying.
You are absolutely correct. I have no idea why so many pianists take this concerto way too slow. Stephen Hough and Zoltan Kocsis are among that few who (1) have the technique to do the piece justice and (2) take the proper tempi in all three movements.
Rachmaninoff's recording omits 66 bars of music. This unabridged performance with Zoltan Kocsis is outstanding in that the pianist does not treat the music like a syrupy Hollywood movie soundtrack as 90% of the competition and he also adopts the composers same dynamics, tempos and phrasing. I have 45 recordings of this Concerto and this performance ranks among the top 10.
avocatdenis Arkadij Volodos and Emil Giljels presented different and softier tone quality in 3rd movement than Stephen Hough. Mr Hough Plays Like Sergei Prokofiev. Vladimir Krajnjev in Belgrade 1998 played Prokofiev-Like version of Rah2,c-minor concerto . I do not like these trancriptions.
And the composer himself when he heard Horowitz said to him: you play this concert much better than I do. They were very good friends, and Horowitz visited Rachmaninoff many times playing for him.
@@lorenzley1324 Indeed so. Moreover, in 1928 when Horowitz and SVR met at Steinway Hall, Steinway artist manager Alexander Greiner watched while Horowitz played the solo part of the Third Concerto in the basement for Rachmaninoff. And something unusual occurred when VH began the first movement. SVR said, "No Gorovetz," as he pronounced the pianist's name. "You are playing this movement too slow!" VH countered, "But you marked the tempo, 'Allegro ma non tanto.'" SVR reiterated, "You are playing it too slow!" and the composer then demonstrated on the keyboard. Horowitz, however, never did heed Rachmaninoff's remonstrance, at the first-movement speed heard in SVR's own recording of the work with Eugene Ormandy conducting. So what a joy to see Zoltan Kocsis perform everything right!
The best ever and forever is and will always be Horowitz. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kYAS0GlY810.htmlsi=iTRw0TNsgbaDyMpV And that's without any discussion.
János Pálúr very good pianist, but I preffer Alfred Cortot or Leopold Godowsky-Neigauz - Kempf in most Chopin’s works Rahmaninoff was also best Chopin-player
Zoltan Kocsis is one of the most prolific technical pianists - EVER, but personally I prefer certain passages a little slower - especially the beginning. My favourite, by far, is Arcadi Volodos - also because he plays the Ossia Cadenza - and because he plays the whole concert with the tempo that I believe is the correct, and because he has the FINEST TOUCH of ANY pianist, past or present!
No, this is the correct tempo, the tempo that the composer himself played. These days, the more famous the pianist, the slower it gets, unfortunately. Koscis was also on another level completely to the likes of Volodos
@@jeremyd1021 The composer is NOT always the best to play his own pieces, something we have witnessed COUNTLESS times! I agree that it must not be played TOO slowly, but the tempo Volodos exhibits is MY preference!
@@kimrsns7363 I think when the composer was one of the very greatest pianists in history I think you should just bow and say amen. Rachmaninov was known to detest pianists who over sentimentalised his music and dragged it out.
J'avoue que le jeune Kocsis m'étonne dans ce concerto, veritable Himmalaya du répertoire ! D'abord le tempo, très vif, comme Rachmaninov himself, et surtout la clarté du jeu ... ON entend tout ... Et cette cadence Ossia : la plus difficle ! Une superbe interprétation. Je ne crois pas sue Kocsis ait enregistré ce concerto au disque ... Dommage ! Bravo !
@@Zerox029 Il s'agit d'une double confusion. Ce qui, dans la partition, est écrit comme ossia est la version originale, succéssivement remplacée par l'auteur avec ce que l'on écoute ici, plus léger et en style de toccata. Rachmaninoff et Horowitz considéraient cette deuxième version préférable afin d'éviter une redite du thême principal. Maints virtuoses s'en accablent.
This piece should not be anything specific. Each performer is responsible for their own performance. Rachmaninoff’s speed does not mean that is the only way everyone should play it. That said, this is an amazing performance.
If Kocsis could just bring the first movement down from warp speed, this performance would be perfection.. The second and third movements were heartbreakingly beautiful.
More like the rest of pianists play it at molasses speed, this is perfect, tons of musicality despite the "warp speed". Rachmaninoff's pieces usually suffer from lethargic tempi and exagerated rubatos, because people have tried so hard to categorize him as a romantic, while he was an unique voice on his own and an early 20th century composer. Pretty much everything he wrote after his Op. 27 gets farther and farther from Tchaikovskian Romanticism, without losing that characteristic Russian passion.
The best ever and forever is and will always be Horowitz. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kYAS0GlY810.htmlsi=iTRw0TNsgbaDyMpV And that's without any discussion.
I have Rachmaninoff's recording of this and, although he plays fast, I don't believe he plays the first movement as fast as Kocsis. Rachmaninoff gets ahead of the orchestra around the end of the cadenza in his version though and I haven't heard another recording where this happens to the artist. As far as the conductor forcing faster tempi on the soloist, it was my impression that this was set either by the soloist or mutually agreed upon between soloist and conductor. Don't know.
@Kim Ørsnæs To propose that the composer isn't the best performer of his works may be true when the composer is not an extraordinarily gifted artist. In Rachmaninoff's case, IMO one must admit that his pianism is equal to the challenge of the Third Concerto. Who is a better interpreter is a matter of taste, especially when the composer is no longer alive to give his opinion of someone's performance. Though tastes may cluster around an interpretation, an outlier may be closer to the composer's intention than others' interpretations. What are we looking for (or more precisely "listening for") in a performance anyway? That which comes closest to what we understand to be the composer's intention(s) or that which for some other reason satisfies us most? IMO, again, the ancients had it right: "de gustibus non disputandum (est)"
1983. 12. 26. A fellow compatriot of mine uploaded the whole concert which is available here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Sftdepswy3w.html
@@Kris9kris Unfortunately this longer video is not accessible today. :-( It was one of my FAVOURITES. Budapest 2023. May the 13th, Saturday. Csaba Orosz
@@bicsak96 Valószínűleg a csatorna tulajdonosa valami copyright strike-ot kaphatott, és le kellett törölnie a videóit. Én is sajnálom, mert rengeteg minden csak nála volt elérhető online, például a MÜPA nyitóhangverseny. Rendszeresen előfordul. Az MTV múltkor nekem is leszedte egy videómat: igaz, hogy sehol nem elérhető, sem megvételre, sem bérlésre, sem sehogy, de attól még szedjük le. Nevetséges.
But -- I'm guessing here -- the conductor may slow the soloist a bit, right? I mean they obviously have practiced for the concert so they are supposed to be on the same page. If they are not, then they have had weeks to get on the same page in the first place.
What about the tempos the composer himself takes in his recording? No doubt the orchestra is behind him too often. But I do not think that this is his fault.By the way: I've heard this concerto a couple of times with Kocsis' conducting and never forcing the actual soloist for faster tempi.
Is there a recording of Horowitz 1943? He recorded the piece in 1930 with Albert Coates and the London Symphony Orchestra, but I didn't know about a 1943 recording.
Ok, he can pull it off as a performer at those tempi. Kocsis is great. But I am having a hard time pulling it off as a listener. Sounds like a garrison desperately fleeing. The music is almost completely lost in the melee.
v=eG1SKAKRlrA Not saying this guy isn't good, but the last part of this cadenza is not easy. Horowitz accelerates during it, that is really a sign of virtuosity and perfection.
@@mirkojorgovic I don't know I think Argerich played it as well as Horowitz Had all the technical brilliance and a little more poetry in spots.... I can figure out why she dropped him from her repertoire....
I don't mean to barge in, but you should really at least have the inclination to try insulting performances with greater variety and imagination. I hear the "too fast" trope at least half a dozen times for every performance I watch that is played at a half decent tempo. Is that a kind of ideological idée fixe for your kind?
Kris9kris He gets away with at this tempo but the 1st movement has passages lacking in crystal clear articulation. My piano Professor graduated from the Franz Liszt Academy in Budapest Hungary and the message always was "make music and make it sing" and "every note had to speak". When I have time to listen to the remainder I will see if Kocsis settles down and makes music. What I have heard,,,(and I have only listened to parts of the 1st mov't) opening tempo is very fast ,,,skip to development and he is getting faster and the alternate cadenza starts in a blur and then the big chordal frenzy is on the edge of being a vulgar rock concert with the volume too loud which results in a banging distorted quality. I repeat (it on the sage of just bashing) but he survives intact. Maybe when I hear the complete performance I will point out other parts that are rushed and out of control. I wonder if Kocsis was happy with the performance?
Apologies for some auto spell check errors,,,they are obvious,,,that is technology ,,,Type a simple word and Americanized spelling takes over. I do my best.
And I have had a long tiring day. I don't mean to be rude in my response ,,,just honest. Listen to the CD of Horowitz live with Sir John Barbirolli 1943 ((I think) and you will get the idea of what is close to perfect. Very few performances are perfect ,,we are mere humans.
Imagine leaving such a patronizing, pretentious and self-important, yet completely meaningless comment on one of the most memorable pianistic performances ever recorded. I especially love your last sentence. "What a pity, with such great talent". As if you're some kind of seasoned master, qualified veteran talking down to a mere beginner. Get outta here...
Strange, I feel it is really 'noble' and dignified, which is quite a feat at this - correct! - speed. When performers take it slower and languish in parts, all the nobility is sucked out. In Kocsis's hands, it's dignified, emotional (there are many beautiful lyrical moments and peaks of drama), and really driven. Love it.
Misguided, discontinued after the first statement of the main theme. There was no story being told, just a rush to get to the sixteenths. I would have flanked him in my class for the first theme only. Fortunately, he wised up with age. 🙂 His later performance of Bartok's No. 2 was spectacular.
"I would have flanked him in my class for the first theme only." Mate, don't take this the wrong way, but have you taken a good look in the mirror recently? Second of all, it's flogged, not "flanked", and discontinued doesn't mean what you think it does. If you're going to insult and threaten somebody with corporal punishment (especially somebody who can't defend himself anymore), at least do it properly.
@@Kris9kris My bad, my bad, "flunk," not "flank," I was too drunk while writing the comment. And yes, I would flunk him, for gross bad judgment. As for your other question, about that mirror, yes, I have taken many good looks there. You can too, just search for "Eat Your Heart Out, Martha . . ." , it's the fifth video from the top.
