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Ranking the BEST Machines in The Binding of Isaac 

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This is a tier list debating the absolute best Machines/Beggars in The Binding of Isaac Repentance. This is NOT a list based on fun or what we think fits best, but rather what machines are the most useful between all kinds of runs. Hope you all enjoy!
Check out my twitch -
Twitch - / latermanner
Also Check out Turtier who debated the list with me -
Turtier - / turtier

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5 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 126   
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
WE KNOW ABOUT SAFETY SCISSORS WITH BOMB BUM! I didn't mention it just because it's a pretty rare scenario and we are trying to rank how everything performs on average, and on average you will not have the scissors. Timestamps (0:00) (and extra thoughts / clarifications below) Slot Machine - 0:47 Shell Game - 3:09 Blood Donation - 11:46 Fortune Machine - 14:57 Donation Machine - 17:52 Regular Beggar - 20:34 Devil Beggar - 24:11 Key Master - 28:12 Bomb Bum - 30:36 Battery Bum - 34:34 Rotten Beggar - 37:15 Dressing Table - 49:47 Confessional - 52:18 Crane Game - 57:53 Hell Game - 1:01:41 Restock Machine - 1:04:50 Final Discussion - 1:08:49 Just to clarify the criteria, we don't deduct points for things being rare. It's based on how much expected impact you get each time you see the machine. Machines that are extremely common get a small boost because being able to consistently run into them when you need them is quite useful, and you can sometimes plan around using them before they actually show up. For example, Eve and Samson can plan to find blood donation machine and maybe get IV bag from it. This is a perk that is only possible due to it being extremely common! I forgot to bring up that slot machine has a 2% chance to explode so it's more likely that it just blows up before you get ANY pretty flies. Shell game however stays around for as long as you want him (he leaves when he pays out with skatole, but if he shows it as the payout option, you can just leave the room and come back to reset him). I actually think all I would change personally for this list is crane game above devil beggar (barely), slot machine at the top of Ehh, and rotten beggar at the bottom of mid behind shell game. I do honestly think shell game is just way more consistent than slot machine if you ever need actual consumables (24% chance for slot machine to pay out, but 33% for shell game to pay out, AND shell game gives 2 consumables on a successful payout, so it's way more efficient) and beezlebub isn't too hard to force, I'll usually do it with a fly item I got from item rooms (there are many of them), then jar of flies or hive mind from the shop, and then skatole. Meanwhile every time I play a slot machine I either spend all my money and get nothing back or it blows up before I get anything. So worse early game and needs to high roll to give just a mediocre orbital? I don't get use out of this very often I think. Just some clarifications for the sake of accuracy, devil beggar is 6-7 (usually 6) hits guaranteed for first payout, not all payouts. In a way this could technically be seen as a bad thing but his payout rate for the item is good enough that it feels like you can view the devil beggar as "6 hits and I probably get an item", usually not too many more to actually get the item unless you low roll. And also whenever we talk about bombing beggars for devil chance, it's only once per floor, but it is more than the shopkeeper devil chance buff. It applies to regular beggar, battery bum, and rotten beggar. The 10 coins for donation machine angel chance is only the first 10 coins too.
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Having rotten baby in the same tier as regular beggar is so wrong in so many ways
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
@@latermanner I mean I was arguing for reg beggar for bottom of rly good too :P but also if I haven't bombed a beggar yet that floor then I'm probably bombing regular beggar, and in that case he's identical to rotten beggar. He's def better than rotten beggar since I don't NEED to bomb him and I can get benefit from actually using him, but still the first one I see each floor is identical to the rotten beggar, not crazy that they would be in the same tier.
@SpireTheSlay
@SpireTheSlay 2 месяца назад
@@latermanner ngl saying you wouldn't spend 11 bombs for a devil deal you wouldn't get otherwise is insane. (Yes its only 1/floor but that is basically what it works out to.) The boost is significant enough that trash just aint right.
@yonko_Z
@yonko_Z 5 месяцев назад
Slot machine is goated because gambling is based
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
truuuuuuuue
@Nullbound
@Nullbound 5 месяцев назад
truuuuuuuue
@Za_SliVky
@Za_SliVky 5 месяцев назад
Genshin impact player detected
@Darwidx
@Darwidx 2 месяца назад
Slot machine and portable slot machine use almost same pool. And let me say portable gambling addiction is the funniest thing to spend 0,99$ on in the game.
@JoseNeto-fi5hu
@JoseNeto-fi5hu 5 месяцев назад
I usually don't comment on stuff but felt compelled for this one: -Slot Machine: One of the most underwhelming machine in the game IMO. Bombing it is kinda fine, but actually playing it is just a no. I feel like the pretty flies are literally not worth the time of my life playing that machine. Pill will be Tears Down and if you legit play for dollar you might as well go to Vegas to become a millionare. Ehhh tier -Shell game: Belzeebu is fine if you can get it, it can save you if you need pickups but that's about it. Mid tier -Blood Dono: Easy Busted tier Fortune telling: Good for fishing for a decent trinket, can save your ass with soul hearts, can give good cards, etc. Just such a good machine. Lucky foot is completely insane with this one. Rly good tier -Dono: Can give you a way stronger start, and you can technically use for luck. Rly good tier -Regular beggar: This little guy is one of my biased fav machines. Judgment gives you a free pedestal and the super secret layout with him and the blood dono is common enough to be semi-reliable. Even if you can't reroll the item, HP up can be handy a lot of times, the mapping stuff is really strong and it can pay crooked penny. Rly good tier --Evil beggar: Just a really solid beggar, his pool has a few troll items but some really strong ones. I just hate the devil room layout with 3 of them. Rly good tier -Key bum: Ppl on the comments seem to hate him. I feel like keys are the most disposable pickup, and if I can trade them for red/golden chests that's really good. Besides the fact on dark/chest room he's busted. Rly good tier but like at the bottom of it. Bomb beggar: "Bu-But do you know about le scissor??? 🤓🤓🤓🤓" Scam tier batter beggar: Feels like the game breaking scenarios are more specific and rare, usually he's just for bombing. Mid tier Rottem beggar: Man I know the guy in the video is super soy about the devil chance but bro this is literally the most scummy beggar in the game. When I did second and third dead god I was intentionally avoiding unlocking this beggar, because he replaces key bum on a lot of layouts and key bum is significantly more useful. Scam tier Mirror: Tears Down. Health Down. Amnesia. Speed Down. Ehh tier Cofessionary: This machine is literally the only way besides using genesis to get rid of broken hearts, which means it makes Magic Skin even stronger. Asides from that, it's pretty good, does a lot of shit. The item is rare and it will usually be Redemption. Rly good tier Crane Game: The machine where you pay to dream. Has a lot of insanely broken itens on the pool but yeah it can really fuck you over. Honestly one of the funniest machines in the game, just hardcore gambling. Rly good tier. Shell beggar: "Wanna spiders?" Odds for everything are kinda atrocious. Eh tier Re-stock: Ultra giga insane busted. Best machine in the game Greed dono: Fuck this dogshit gamemode tier. Technically busted because you need to donate to it to progress in the game and for Lost to start with Holy mantle.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Completely agree on a lot of these, especially slot machine, shell game, and key bum (I still think he's mid but the point about keys being disposable late game is very important). I do legitimately think that people underrate rotten beggar devil chance only because you can't tell when it made a difference. I nearly 100% guarantee that if it instantly teleported you to the devil / angel deal when bombing him (assuming you would have got the deal at the end of the floor but wouldn't have if you didn't bomb him) then everyone would appreciate him way more, probably even more than I do. Everyone would justify spending the bomb and people would be talking about all those times they got brimstone or sacred heart from rotten beggar. I mean it, I GUARANTEE this would be the reaction. The only difference would be that it's obvious when it mattered.
@dragonfish5729
@dragonfish5729 4 месяца назад
Battery beggar is busted. Especially if you have the d6/ed6 or red key. You can get items from ultra secrets and you are allowed to get red libraries or other types of special rooms. Or with the d6 you can roll until you get a good item. Long stort short, this beggar has a lot of potential, i would put it in very good tier.
@marcelreucki2958
@marcelreucki2958 Месяц назад
I agree with everything except the cofessionary the only time it is even ok is if you get magic skin and even then it doesn't pay out often enough to be Worth the hearts
@benro6564
@benro6564 5 месяцев назад
Fly and battery beggars have a 0.0000001% chance of paying out I SWEAR. Also I've noticed a lot of Manner's arguments are just "trust me bro" LOL
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
LITERALLY
@slimeykayu4091
@slimeykayu4091 5 месяцев назад
30 seconds in and boss rush is mentioned. i'll never escape it
@sammcgarry5822
@sammcgarry5822 5 месяцев назад
Cant wait to see you combine all the items from every tier list youve done and rank literally everything
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
We plan to do all items for a stream
@atpsoldat6108
@atpsoldat6108 4 месяца назад
God help you.
@jaydeng.9506
@jaydeng.9506 5 месяцев назад
I don't know if you guys take suggestions but a unique tier list would be the tainted characters unlocks from mega satan. (stuff like fools gold, crane game, black sack).
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
We considered this one a while ago and then forgot about it. Definitely one we might do!
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
I like this idea!
@sashakucher261
@sashakucher261 5 месяцев назад
turt is soo right about belzebub from shell. It's the most accessable form of flight. The slots are a one time bomb begger.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
THANK YOU. It's pretty relevant because both hive mind and jar of flies are available in the shop. You won't always get them obviously, but shop is a smaller pool, and it's easier to generate many shop items thanks to restock machines, so the chance you find one of the two isn't as low as other things. And there are SO many random fly items in the game, you probably have one from an item room. Since shell game is so common, it might be valid to buy jar of flies specifically to hit 2/3 knowing that you'll probably soon get an arcade that you can use to get skatole.
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
I've never even thought about it, but if it really is more than a 20% chance to get beelzebub then fair enough, I'd take two pretty flies over flight anyway tho so doesnt change my placement lol
@sashakucher261
@sashakucher261 5 месяцев назад
@latermanner I get where you are coming from, but that takes everything in a vacuum. Breaking it down by situation: If have 2/3 belzebub, it's at best comparing flight versus a pretty fly. You are crazy if you think fly is better. This will make up about 40% of endgame situations If you have less than belzebub, you are comparing getting more pickups to getting a pretty fly. This is the remaining 60% of endgame. Playing slots is only marginally better than she'll only under very specific circumstances. (Mostly time machine mod) If you just want pickups from bombing, yes it's better. But the cases where you want to spend that bomb are deceptively rare. If you want early money, the dono machine is your best bet. If you want health, the bloodbank, and since bombs are on average the most useful pickup, often it makes no sense.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
@@sashakucher261 There's also a point I forgot to bring up which is that the slot machine blows itself up on 2% of plays. Pretty fly rate is 0.79%. Objectively speaking, the majority of slot machines are IMPOSSIBLE to get a fly from. Definitely extremely unlikely to get 2-3 like Manner says. And even if it doesn't blow up, you still don't have an amazing chance to get the fly even with the entire money cap. Shell game on the other hand, if you don't want skatole you can just leave the room to reset him, so the only chance to lose him is if he troll bombs himself. Need to be careful about that but it's usually avoidable if you keep it in mind as a possibility. To be fair though, we do need to consider the scenario where you already have flight, which makes beezlebub much worse. Although it's still actually useful specifically if you are going to beast, since you perma charm the tainted pooters, which is pretty cool.
@djnateblastoff8320
@djnateblastoff8320 Месяц назад
You guys have an awesome energy I love putting these on in the background
@monty5405
@monty5405 2 месяца назад
Hearing the screaming about pretty flies and shaking my head knowing how much power a single item pedestal gives from Shell Game 🙂‍↔️ the reroll or black-rune potential to extract killing power from my coins in the late-game has saved quite a few of my runs 🥊😤🥊 not mention Skatole spins down into stat-ups after Brother Bobby!
@dog7676
@dog7676 5 месяцев назад
i love shell game for pickups, childhood classic machine for me
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Yeah after this list I'm starting to think it might be the most underrated machine in the game. It's over twice as efficient at generating you bombs, keys, and hearts, compared to slot machine.
@dog7676
@dog7676 5 месяцев назад
@@turtier when i played cain alot as a kid, i would use this to generate what felt like infinite blood bank plays to get an iv bank or blood bag in the womb. It leaves you with alot of pickups for whatever else you would need
@nugget42069
@nugget42069 5 месяцев назад
this is my opinion about ranking and every machines/beggars slot machine: i can get pretty fly with 10 coins with luck 0 so the argument is good for me, ranking it in mid is good ranking cause it doesnt give to much but gives you something better than just pickups, it dont know if it spawn in normal floors.i would rank it the mid of mid shell game: he is so bad i see the item when i want it he gives me enemy fly but when i want pickups he gives me item and he leaves. item he gives is every mid.one thing that he is better than slot machine is he can spawn in womb without arcade which is great when you have money, when he is in arcade i would spend on slot machine then if it explodes then on game shell or bomb him. i would rank him in ehhhhh cause he is annoying but where he can spawn is only good thing about him. blood donation machine: i love blood donation machine it gives you money and it can spawn everywhere. it can give you two items both mid but still two items is better than one. with invicibility you can minmax every easy.some characters are easier with this machine. i would rank him in low busted pearl machine: can give you soul hearts eternal hearts and trinkets. can spawn in super secret room which is good can save you. give you item which is another point. but bombin it is a option when you dont have money at the end of a floor. i would rank it low rly good donation machine:can give you luck angel chance and unlocks. bombin gives you coins and spawns every shop, so when you dont have money for a item in shop bomb it.and if donate you feel good. i would rank him busted beggar:he can spawn everywhere can give you items and pickups. health items and map items.bombin him gives you money and devil chance.i would rank him in top of mid devil beggar: he cost health but when he gives you items he give worst crap he can but atleast he pays out not like others. invicibility gives you free item.bombin it gives you angel chance. i would rank him in ehhhh. key beggar:he cost keys he is special but is it worth? you need 99 keys you to give you an item but you can see him in dark room or chest and when he spawns a chest he gives you a free item but probably you are already busted in the end game so this is just for showcase. i would rank him scam bomb beggar:you cant bomb him. he cost bombs. he does give you crap of items. another scam battery beggar:he cost money can overcharge your active item and he is very useful. you can bomb him but is it worth?i get sad when he give you item and leaves. i would rank him busted rotten beggar: he is just better normal beggar.i would rank him in low rly good mom's dresing table: it is useless until you bomb this.but when you bomb it this give you mother shit items which is only good when you want mom transformation.i would rank this in scam Confessional: it isnt bad it is just worse blood donation but still i would love to use it when i can. it can give you soul hearts and can give you redemption. i would rank him in rly good crane game: it is great and fun. gives decent items but costs much. i would rank him in rly good hell game: it is just worse shell game. scam restock: this is the definition of busted. greed machine: it is the same what normal donation machine. it cant give you money in shop but the unlocks are worth it p.s. sory for less arguments in the last machines i got kinda lazy
@nathamiell
@nathamiell 3 месяца назад
Key Masters absolutely never pay out for me (it takes like 8 keys for them to give me a chest of any kind because they just hate me I guess) so rotten beggars replacing them is an upgrade imo. Also rotten beggars are good money sinks for right before you go fight Mother. The flies they give don't do much alone, but getting a whole swarm of them after giving him a full stack of 99 coins is a good amount of free damage at the start of the fight.
@phgumerr646
@phgumerr646 5 месяцев назад
Never heard more emotion in a tierlist video this is amazing
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
We decided to do these because we had a debate about whether tainted lazarus is good in the comments, and thought it would make for good video discussions. Might be the best idea we've ever had LOL
@vyekas
@vyekas 5 месяцев назад
i am living for the shell/slot machine debate LMAO
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Shell game >>> Slot machine, not even close, if anyone tells you otherwise they are lying and you should stop talking to them XD
@zaperzero
@zaperzero Месяц назад
Slot machine vs 3 skull monte is so close it's wild. I use 3 skull if i need a lot of one consumable (hp, bomb, key), and slot if i need a variety in smaller quantities. Otherwise, save the cash for a beggar (or shop if ealrier on).
@TtronX
@TtronX 5 месяцев назад
I love your content bro. A card tier list would be goated FrFr ❤
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
We recorded runes / soul stones and cards is probably next!
@TtronX
@TtronX 5 месяцев назад
@@turtierawesome can’t wait for that to drop
@jirachi7346
@jirachi7346 5 месяцев назад
"Ranking the best machines in Binding of isaac repentance" Begger:Can you spare a coin sir? :D
@AzazelAlice
@AzazelAlice 2 месяца назад
my main problem with confessionals is that it feels like they never pay out and also they're harder to abuse since most of the times you find it it's on an angel room, meaning you can't go back to pick up health, apart from that based list.
@Ne_Ne_Vova_UA
@Ne_Ne_Vova_UA 2 месяца назад
11:26 not counting belzebub is just unfair, i did get it a lot of time thanks to it, even if it's other items, fly utems are pretty common
@duck7464
@duck7464 4 месяца назад
Normal beggar is good if you have rerolls because its a item pedestal on command for 7+ gold
@BossHogLive
@BossHogLive 5 месяцев назад
I swear every time turtier brings up the exact percentage chance for something rare Later always says he always gets it anyway so it has to be higher than that
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Manner is great but damn sometimes I think he just wants me to suffer XD Payout chance of flies is actually lower than what I said too because I forgot to mention the machine blowing up 2% of the time. So it's over twice as likely for the machine to blow up and give you 0 flies than it is to give you 1, let alone 2-3.
@nocthemedic2951
@nocthemedic2951 Месяц назад
Literally, as I was watching this video, I got two pretty flies from 7 cents
@Hehecats
@Hehecats 4 месяца назад
Rotten beggar has two uses outside of bombing 1. Chance for bone heart for bethany or t. Cain and rotten hearts for t cain
@homedepotfetus
@homedepotfetus 5 месяцев назад
I haven't used a slot machine or shell game (unless you count bombing them as using them) for about 700 runs.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Slot machine I agree, every time I use it because "well I have money and nothing else to do so may as well" it ends up just breaking before I even get 1 fly. Shell game is also kinda situational but I have found in some runs that are really low on consumables that it consistently comes in clutch for me. The beezlebub thing is a thing I legitimately do look out for too and I get it to happen fairly often. I think shell game is underrated tbh but its one of those things that many runs will actually have 0 use for.
@OldandAbandonedHarcorte
@OldandAbandonedHarcorte 5 месяцев назад
Honestly Bomb beggar is only a scam if you play him when you're not supposed to. He isn't a common play but if you have some excess bombs he actually pays out for me quite frequently. I usually only play him when I have 20-30+ bombs and He pays out within the first 10 almost every time. And this isn't a single instance this has happened literally over a dozen times as I've been going through my 2nd save file recently. Also you didn't mention safety scissors giving you infinite bombs since bomb beggars are a renewable source of trollbombs. Niche interaction sure, but it basically turns 1 trinket into pyro for free a little time at most if you want to count that as a "cost" Honestly I think he goes above rotten beggar and vanity. Rotten beggar is unironically useless. The Devil Chance is neglible, He NEVER fucking shows up to begin with, and when he does I've probably already beaten the boss because outside of corpse he only appears in the SSR and Arcades occasionally. And Guess what, if he's in an arcade there are probably better beggars to blow up for deal chance that don;t also spawn enemies. He also doesn't fucking help at all for mother because she has boss armor, so the flies cuck your DPS until phase 2. 3-4 cents for like 1 blue fly. Absolute fucking scam. I actually feel similarly to the hell game as the bomb beggar. He doesn't pay out quickly I understand that much, but if you find him before womb on a red health character he can give you a couple of black hearts or some resources for the red health on the stage. I don't think he goes above Ehhhh but he's not as bad as people think he is. Just like bomb beggar the scenario's the play them don't arise very often but when they do they are pretty damn good.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Thanks for the comment. Hope you don't mind my long responses LOL. Rotten beggar is actually way better to blow up compared to other beggars, because other beggars are better to play. I'll blow up a beggar for deal chance once each floor if possible, but it's sometimes sad having to bomb normal beggar since I sometimes want to play him out instead. But with rotten beggar there is no opportunity cost beyond the 1 bomb, which isn't much anyway (unless you are extremely low on bombs). I also think the deal chance is one of those things that is very easy to underrate, because you can never tell when it actually matters. But it is once every 11 times you do it on average, and an average devil / angel deal is good, and its for such a minuscule cost. Again I still think he's either top of Eh or bottom of mid at most, but I do think it's given a bigger impact to my runs more consistently than all the entries below him. Far from completely useless. As another note, the rarity of the beggar isn't relevant for this list. We are more judging how often the machine / beggar gives you an impact, and how big that impact is, each time you see it. So for rotten beggar it gives you a devil / angel deal 8.8% of the time for one bomb, that's all that should be considered for that spot (besides playing him, which we all agree is very low impact LOL). I've thought out the criteria quite a lot and I could explain in detail but I'll spare you from that, it's just something to keep in mind. I've seen a lot of people think rotten beggar is bad, and a lot of people saying hell game is better than we gave it credit for. I'm honestly quite sure that rotten beggar devil chance is being underrated, but hell game I do think we might have underrated a bit. I still think it's very relevant that it's in direct competition with blood donation and sacrifice room, which are very likely to be on the same floor as the hell game, and are a better use for your hearts, however I will acknowledge that I might be a little biased and therefore haven't played it enough. I'll give it more of a try and see if I'm still disappointed with it or if it actually was better than we gave it credit for. As for a note with the safety scissors interaction, we both know about it, and I didn't mention it because we are ranking how good everything is on average, but safety scissors is a rare scenario. If you are going to consider safety scissors as a high roll potential of bomb bum, then you need to consider getting an S tier devil / angel item from a deal that you would have missed if you didn't bomb the rotten beggar. Both of these are high rolls. I prefer to just ignore both outcomes. You usually won't have safety scissors, and you'll get an average devil / angel deal every 11 times you bomb the guy. Just makes more sense to view things that way imo. Would be different if safety scissors was more common. That's why I did consider beezlebub for shell game, because there are many fly items, and 2 of them (jar of flies and hive mind) are in the shop pool, so you actually have a decent chance to get 2/3 fly items, it makes the fact that shell game can finish it off a lot more relevant.
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Tbh i agree with all you said lol, Turt just loves rotten baby too much i couldnt win
@OldandAbandonedHarcorte
@OldandAbandonedHarcorte 5 месяцев назад
@@turtier I know you say ya don't take rarity into consideration but the circumstance matters a lot when it comes to something dependant on something else like whether or not you've killed the boss. I'm not gonna go any further with this it's just not that complicated, but the quantity of times you do blow up a rotten beggar to begin with is very low which means that 1/11 on average is not very impactful because it takes place over hundreds to thousands of runs. I understand where you're coming from but when rotten beggar is that rare with such low impact it makes him just not very useful. 1 bomb also is a lot to spare when you consider he usually shows up in that SSR, and deals only take place during the early and mid game, where consumables are typically much more scarce. Sure by say the Womb you can probably spare a bomb to get that extra deal chance, but considering you usually only see him in that SSR you already spent a bomb getting into, he just isn't worth 2 entire bombs for a small increase in deal chance. I also hope I made it clear that people use bomb beggar wrong, Like he's not a beggar you play for the item at the end like most of them are, you play him for the consumables he gives you, because his entire pool is just bomb items which arent that good to begin with, and bombs are a valuable resource you get to choose when you conserve. Maybe you wouldn't hate the guy so much if you weren't so stubborn you were willing to give him all your bombs which we all know is the most powerful consumable in the game, useful for accessing more consumables, secret rooms and dealing dmg. Bombs aren't easily farmable, so he isn't designed to pay out most of the time you're playing him. The only scenario you should be playing him out is when you already have something like Dr fetus, and bombs are no longer useful for anything other than piercing boss armor. Pretty funny that I am arguing for the beggar that assumes you have a lot of bombs, and against the one who you will usually only bomb one time in an entire run, but I think they are about even in how often you get real use outta them, when you either have a lot of spare bombs or want extra deal chance.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
@@OldandAbandonedHarcorte Ultimately rarity comes down to a criteria difference. I don't think it's wrong for people to consider rarity on their own lists. But for this list it wasn't considered, that's why for this discussion in particular I'd want people to not consider the rarity of the beggar, but rather just what they get when it does show up. Not going by that criteria just means you are talking about an entirely different list, so of course the placement won't match. For slightly more detail on the criteria, I do think it makes sense to give a small boost to things are are extremely common. Basically if it's common enough that you can plan around specifically getting it, such as getting IV bag on samson, then I think thats bonus points, but most things aren't common enough to specifically plan for so bomb beggar and rotten beggar are viewed equal in that regard. I was going to talk about how I agree that I shouldn't be giving him all my bombs and that maybe the sunk cost fallacy argument is more my fault than his, but I did some testing in debug console because I wanted a better idea of his rates. And to my surprise, I kept getting super fast bomb upgrade payouts. Not a super thorough test but in like 10 of them I've only had 2 that refused to give the item in 10-20 bombs. Average number of bombs for a regular payout seems to be 2-3. Heart payout rate seems fairly similar to coin payout rate actually, although blood dono is so common that it may as well be money. Even if you count the hearts as money, you are still getting less than 1 coin per bomb, which is pretty sad. So if anything, my testing shows me that playing for the bomb upgrade when I have excess bombs is actually the right idea, because the money conversion isn't worthwhile. Sunk cost fallacy is still my fault but I only really do that in runs where I'm winning anyway, so it didn't actually effect his placement on the list, I just thought it's a funny occurrence that happens a lot. Despite this, I still think rotten beggar is better. Before the comparison wasn't close to me, it was easily rotten beggar. And I was fairly certain that it's not me who's overrating rotten beggar, but rather just that rotten beggar devil chance is underrated. I'm near 100% certain that if rotten beggar was replaced by a beggar who asks for a bomb, always leaves after being given the bomb, but has an 8.8% chance to teleport you to devil / angel deal (only on floors with natural deals and only if you would have missed the deal otherwise), then I think everyone would see the value similarly to me, if not more. General consensus would probably be that it's almost always worth risking because it's only 1 bomb and everyone would pog when they hit the deal from it, it would happen often enough to seem significant. I legitimately am almost certain of this. So I thought it was crazy that anyone could even compare to bomb bum. But it's not because I'm overrating rotten beggar, I'm just underrating bomb bum, so the comparison is actually closer than I thought. Still, getting money in a situation you actually need it from bomb bum is way too situational. I think it's pretty rare for a run to have a lot of bombs but not also have a lot of money. I think blood dono far outclasses it in terms of money generation and since blood dono is so common I do think that's relevant. Any runs where you have so many bombs probably have a lot of consumables in general meaning you probably already bought a bunch of things from the shop and you'll win regardless, the bomb bum money won't help you save a bad run, it's just win-more. There are of course runs with specific things such as safety scissors, or even just having dr fetus meaning the bomb bum has no downside, but I think less than 1 in 11 runs that see bomb bum will have that stuff, and even if they do have that stuff, the benefit might still not be as good as the average devil / angel deal, hence why I still believe rotten beggar is better. In 1.5k hours I only remember 2 runs where I NEEDED the money from bomb bum, and one of those runs I just needed 5 cents and still missed it with 7-8 bombs. So yeah I do actually think the best use for him is just trying to get a bomb upgrade on runs with lots of bombs, but not going below 10-15 bombs. That scenario is more likely to help your run I think. My test was pretty short, so maybe I just massively highrolled, but I'm willing to say that I probably do just have some negative bias where I only remember the times when he never pays out, not remembering all the times he pays out in 10 bombs. Funnily enough I think manner has the opposite issue. He seems to have a positive bias and only remembers the times when he high rolls. The pretty fly rates he says he has for slot machine are practically impossible. There's no way you can consistently get multiple, you would unironically need dream luck. The math actually suggests that the majority of machines will give you no flies at all. After thinking about slot machine vs shell game even more, and now seeing that I might have underrated bomb beggar and hell game, I actually think it's possible that slot machine is the worst machine. I'm honestly kinda tempted to do a massive in depth test on all the machines and make my own revised tier list where I have approximate numbers for everything, see once and for all which machines give the best payouts. Sorry for the long comment again :P
@Adfynnture
@Adfynnture 2 месяца назад
I’ve genuinely gotten dollar bill more than beelzebub.
@parme8344
@parme8344 Месяц назад
bro, you get 3 pretty flies so much more than beelzubub
@Nullbound
@Nullbound 5 месяцев назад
The slot machine gives out pretty flies like Kendrick gives out diss tracks...
@Limequat
@Limequat 5 месяцев назад
demon shell game gave me mega blast last game while i was judas so i had pretty good damage, so my biased opinion it’s a S+++ awesome best thing in the game.
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Must be nice
@breadit404
@breadit404 5 месяцев назад
Yoooo great vid! Love watching these, since you want ideas; possibly a special room tier list? Quick mention of my opinions; Slot- High Mid. I feel like I sink so many of my coins into these things with fairly ehhh payout. They can provide a spare key or bomb but I feel like its almost always smarter to play a beggar or shop, which are usually easier to find even. (Also ur in fact crazy abt the pretty flies, I only get 1) Shell game- Low mid-high ehhhh. I feel like the fact that these spawn an enemy on not procing makes them slightly tip down for me since it’s actually cost me some health in some of the blindfold challenges. Skatole is also just not super great for the amount of money you typically have to invest to get it. Sure Beelzebub is fine, but I feel like flight is so attainable its not as easy to say its like a guppy part or something. Though OML you got heated abt beelzebub lmaoo Blood dono!!- Mid-High Rlly good! Guaranteed money comes in a fix a grand lot of the time, making it nice when you’re a couple coins short of that champion’s belt sitting in the shop or something of the line. Not to mention the amazing drops from an item payout, especially with the reroll ability of using one of these. Think even when placing it within a secret room through a temperance card, easy secret room item! I’d say it’s not quite busted though simply because there’s a couple machines that are so good that blood dono can’t be in the same tier, also given the whole deal of it being something that damages you making it often unviable on many non-red heart characters as well as early floors. Fortune teller-busted. The ability for what this machine can actually give you is hardcore overlooked sometimes. Trinkets got a gigantic buff in repentance, now there’s so many good ones! I can’t even begin to name the amount of times I’ve rolled cancer or blessed penny from a fortune teller. Not to mention the ability to generate soul hearts and cards is unmatched. I still think this is even better than blood dono because it has a more immediate payout that enables it to be used on all characters as well as give all characters benefits, as opposed to blood donos which have about 7 or 8 characters that don’t mesh with them. Dono machine- High mid. Mostly because I feel like a big cheater when I utilize the bomb on it trick, not to bring feeling into such a ranking though. Though to mention it requires significant investment to actually make worthwhile. Coin Beggar!- Rlly good! Buddy’s great to me. He’s like a better blood donation, where I usually only have to invest about 12 coins for a pedestal item that can be easily rerolled or simply just taken! Usually he drops an HP up, which has saved quite a few runs for me given there’s seemingly loads upon loads of Sheol and cathedral layouts with these boys. Also note the easy spawnability of one of these given all that’s necessary is a judgement card. Demon beggar!- Lower rlly good but still really good! I think this is like a nice way to invest excess health and can honestly pay out with some amazing items! My main gripe is it simply comes with many of the issues that plague damage machines, given the issue of alienating early floor runs and loads of characters. However if spare health is laying around, these are wonderful gambles to make. Key Beggar- Blatant Scam. Buddy consumes the most rare pickup, and has no minimum offerings for items. Not to mention his payouts usually require MORE keys. He’s just so useless, and he’s rare too. At least the other ones come from a common tarot. Bomb Beggar! - Ehhhhh…. I mean he’s FINE. I think my problem with bomby boy is his rarity and the payouts he gives. Honestly he’s saved a couple of my runs by providing keys but I feel as if even compared to key buddy he’s SUPER reluctant to pay out with items. Couple that with his rarity and I think he suffers quite a bit. Still playable though, so not in scam. I would put him very low mid for that, but I think the inability to be bombed for deals is sucky. Charged Beggar!! -High mid or low rlly good! He comes in handy every once in a while, and has a good payout rate. My main thing that holds him back is his reluctance to provide a pedestal as is such with the non demon/normal beggars. He’s alright though! Rotten Beggar- Low Ehhhhh… I just think his payouts are not good enough for his payout rate. Sure I love the bone hearts he provides, but the flies are ehhhh and ill be honest, I think rotten hearts are pretty crap. Not a fan of this guy. At least you can bomb him for deal? He cant even be found easily at all, given he only appears in arcades and a very select few secret room layouts. Mirror-????? Its a thing I guess?!??? Confessional!- High ehhhh…! I REALLY wanna like this thing so bad. Soul heart version of a blood dono fixing my one crucial flaw within it? Sign me up! AND the ability to heal broken hearts? YEAH Aaaaaand its rare as can be. Confessionals have so much USE and I love their premise but they’re just far too rare to even justify putting in mid. This is absolutely the machine ive seen the least in the whole game. Crane Game!!!- BUSTED!!! Oh LORD I love these things. 3 pedestal item potential? I find these impossible NOT to play usually. Their item pool seems to be full of absolutely great items that usually only cost maybe slightly more than a shop item. Sure you need quite a bit of money but the power of a crane game is unmatched. I pivot towards arcades JUST for crane games. They are amazing for transformations, pure offensive power, rerolls, EVERYTHING. Best machine imo. Demon Game! -Low mid. Honestly like confessionals I REALLY wanna like demon games. They have amazing payouts. Black hearts, runes, REVERSE CARDS? I think they just really suffer from being a combination of 2 machines, and getting the negatives of both. The difficulty of use of a demon beggar, and also the fact you have to gambles said health makes these such a difficult sell unless youre running on a serious health surplus. Restock!!- BUSTED! These are SO Good. Need I even explain? The ability to create an instant reroll is absolutely AMAZING. The low cost high effectiveness nature of restocks makes them absolutely peak use most of the time. Not to mention that they’re EXTREMELY common, being in about 30% of shops and even select Treasure Layouts! The ease of access to one as well must be considered, given reverse judgement AND the pay to win trinket. Absolutely amazing! Greed dono machine- This machine caused me so much frustration I won’t dignify it with a ranking Sorry about the novel. LOVED the video!
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Thanks for the comment! I love seeing other people's thoughts, i will say that we have a lot of differing opinions, but i like a lot of your points
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
We surprisingly didnt talk about blood dono being bad for non red heart chars, which is a very fair negative, that being said i still would keep it in busted since it basically difines minmaxing for red heart chars
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
We weren't factoring in rarity too much. Regular beggar, blood dono, slot machine, shell game, restock machine, and donation machine, probably get a small boost for being common, but otherwise it's less about how common they are and more about how impactful they are when you actually see them. I honestly think shell game might be the most underrated machine in the entire game. Rotten beggar arguably is more underrated, but I don't even rate him for the beggar, I rate him for being able to bomb him LOL. But shell game people legitimately underrate the usefulness of. Skatole is bad on it's own but it's very easy to force beezlebub for it on a number of runs. But even besides that, I find that any run I'm struggling with consumables, he has me covered. Slot machine as 76% chance to pay out with nothing, so in other words its 24% payout chance. Shell game is 33% chance for payout. So shell game payout rate is higher, however slot machine gives 1 consumable at a time, but shell game gives 2 at a time, guaranteed. So shell game is just way more efficient for actually getting consumables when you need them. You can easily avoid skatole by leaving the room if you don't want it, too. Need to be a little careful that he doesn't blow himself up with a troll bomb, but otherwise you have full control over how long you use him for. Slot machine has a 2% chance to explode on use which is more than twice as likely as the chance of getting even 1 pretty fly, so that's an even further point against the pretty flies from it because even if you have infinite money, you're more likely to get cut short before even getting 1. And yeah, key master is a scam early game, he's only good late game when you have more keys than you have any use for. It happens fairly often for me though, it's usually just free value late game. Bomb beggar can't give you keys, I think he could in AB+ though? It's only 1-3 coins, sometimes a heart, or a bomb pedestal now. Pretty useless imo.
@breadit404
@breadit404 5 месяцев назад
@@turtier For me I think rarity is a significant factor for some of these machines since they can be simply created by tarots in the case of the 2 beggars and blood dono. But I feel as if I can’t give praise to a machine for being common but then turn around and ignore how rare something like a confessional is. Shell games and Slots both have the pitfall to me of simply just shops existing, like id much rather spend 1 key and 10 coins for exactly what I need instead of 20 coins for a decent chance for what I need. I also realize that dollar and Skatole are so obscenely rare that I barely even factor them in these machines like I do iv bag or crystal ball/tarot cloth. Key beggars even feel like a scam late game, since they have no minimum amount for payout ive had key bums eat like 12 keys before paying out with a single normal chest. Wait rlly? If bomb beggars dont give keys anymore then that’s absolutely a scam lmao. Still above key beggar imo
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
@@breadit404 RU-vid has refused to post my comment multiple times. Really annoying lol. I'm going to see if editing this comment is a workaround. Factoring in rarity definitely makes sense. We personally don't do it because of what our specific criteria is, but it also makes perfect sense to me as to why some people would want to take rarity into account too. We probably should have clarified our criteria better at the start of the video, but I'll give an explanation as to what I was personally considering for this list (I assume manner has something similar). My criteria is essentially "how impactful is the thing on the runs I see it". So I don't care if I see confessional way less, I'm just looking at the runs that specifically found the confessional, and then trying to judge how much that confessional improved my run. For instance, for the sake of this list, I'd say that my expected impact from a devil beggar is higher than a confessional. There is a little more to the criteria than just this. I like to factor in if things are very common, specifically because this allows you to plan around them. For most items, I'm never going to plan around specifically finding it. For example, if I don't have razor blade unlocked and I wanted to have a plan for how I'll stay in babylon form as Eve, I'm not going to plan around finding birthright, because the chance of getting that specific item is too low. But I WILL plan around getting IV bag, since blood donations are so common that I can probably force it. Since all the regular arcade machines are so common, it means they can get a little nudge for being easy to plan around. For example, I might have 1 fly item, and I see my shop has jar of flies. I might decide to buy the jar of flies specifically to get to 2/3 fly items, assuming that I'll probably get an arcade in the next 2 floors that I can convert to flight by playing the shell game for skatole. It isn't even that rare either, I do need to set aside some money but it's usually not too bad. And I can plan a way to get that money through blood donation machine, since that's probably in the very same arcade! Basically, shell game and blood donation are getting bonus points for being so common that they can be planned around, it's not unreasonable for them to have some impact on my run before I even encounter them at all lol. Confessional won't get those bonus points since it's too rare to assume I'll find, but it won't lose points. I'll just judge it based on what it does when I see it. Even though I see confessional less than shell game, I get use out of confessional a higher % of the time when I see it compared to shell game, which I see every run but only actually use occasionally. For the record, if we end up doing a tier list on everything the tainted characters unlock for mega satan, confessional placement might be entirely different. The reason is that in this list, we are ranking the actual machine, but the mega satan list would be ranking the UNLOCK. And for the unlock itself, if you are unlocking something that doesn't show up often, then it's less worthwhile to do that compared to unlocking something that happens often. For instance, you will get more value from unlocking jera than you will from unlocking rock bottom. Rock bottom is better individually, but jera is way way way more common, so if you had to pick only 1 unlock to have, you'll get more value over the course of your runs by unlocking jera. So if we do that list, then confessional being rare would definitely be a factor against it. Hope that all makes sense lol.
@KristenStuffs
@KristenStuffs 5 месяцев назад
When I was watching this video i had 250-odd cents and walked into an arcade Dumped 70 coins and got 1 pretty fly and then all 3 slot machines blew up I do think on average you get 2 per arcade that has a slot machine, only if the arcade has multiple slot machines otherwise they blow up most of the time before getting pretty fly That being said, it is infinitely better than Shell Game (most of the time), when I play shell game its usually to reroll Skatole
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Shell game is much, much better if you are low on bombs / keys and need multiple. I don't use either slot machine or shell game that often, but I use shell game semi consistently on guppys tail runs. And the math on slot machine is unfavourable to give you any pretty flies. Slot machine is better to use excess money on in womb but it usually won't matter, shell game is less spammable but actually impactful in way more situations imo.
@KristenStuffs
@KristenStuffs 5 месяцев назад
@@turtier Honestly I think I agree thinking about it, like I've definitely had more runs that needed shell game than slot machines I do get kinda annoyed by it sometimes due to how slow it is, so I wish it was sped up and I've definitely had runs where I play shell game 10+ times without getting anything I can think of only one run I had which was negatively impacted by playing shell game
@panfoo7718
@panfoo7718 5 месяцев назад
i love watching you two fight
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
That's why we make them XD
@santiagovidelaleiva
@santiagovidelaleiva 5 месяцев назад
I dont remember demon shell game being so bad, its pay out feels basically the same as scatole wich isnt that bad. I havent check the actual percentanges but being at the bottom feels crazy. Everything in the video i agree 100%, even when you disagree on one topic i can find myself flip flopping between the arguments the two of you make. Hell game is for me: bottom of mid. Its crazy how so far better than fck rotten begger it is. You are talking about some bs 8% devil chance versus a little bit of time and an actual devil deal. But for a real argument, the black heart payout is the most important one, wasting a couple of hearts for only just 1 black heart is worth it. You can also apply the same arguments of key bum (usuless most of the times but crazy highs), if you have health to spare, like that secret room with tons of hearts this is literally a free devil deal. Sorry for being so agressive, i just like the little demon buddy. He might be a little bit of a scammer but dont compare with the rotten ones or the dirty ones covered in ash, hes better.
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Honestly...youre really not wrong lol, id take the devil skull game or bomb bum over rotten baby any day, but i gave rotten baby to turt lmao
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
I WON'T TAKE THIS ROTTEN BEGGAR SLANDER! Nah I think the main dif is that hell game has so much other crap he can offer you. I'm not sure if his payouts are equal likelihood but I'll assume they are. He has 7 payouts, 4 of those are the blue spiders, pennies, keys, or bombs, and I really don't care (I'd just play a blood donation or the regular shell game for those, and spider payout may as well literally be nothing it barely makes a difference). Card or rune is an ok payout, black heart is good too, and devil deal item is definitely by far the best payout. But that's 1/7 for devil payout and then 1/3 to actual win it, so 1/21. That's 10.5 hearts and you could still also low roll and have it be more hearts. You can also low roll the actual item offered, if it's brother bobby then you aren't getting anything from this. It's the same every time which is both a good and a bad thing, I'd say probably a good thing because if it's bad you can just stop early and if it's good then you can justify playing for it more. I think it's important to factor that if I have 10.5 hearts to spare to maybe get a devil item, I'm probably just better off playing a sac room instead to try and get an angel item, and even if you miss you have a 50% chance to get 7 soul hearts to make up for most the health you spent. Hell game is competing with other good ways to spend hearts such as sac room, devil beggar, blood dono, and even maybe confessional, so it further decreases the situations where he is worth playing. Meanwhile rotten beggar is 1 bomb to get an extra devil deal on every 11 rotten beggars. Extremely low cost and non committal, and it secretly helps more than you might realise.
@santiagovidelaleiva
@santiagovidelaleiva 5 месяцев назад
@@turtier Your logic and argument is completely sound but also flawed. You are comparing this little demon dude with all the top tier machines and beggars. My argument isnt that he is the best, far from it. My argument is that is the very bottom of mid. Honestly, a sac room is the perfect example of how to use this little guy. You have to commit fully to the gamba. Everyone quits before hitting big!!! Compare to the sac room: 12 hearts = tons of money + consumables or 7 soul hearts + consumables (A posible angel deal if you didnt already get it after the boss) (idk but it seems kinda lame...) Vs Chad devil gambler: 10.5 hearts = 2 black hearts + a sick devil item or 1 pog rune + a sick devil item. I guess its hard to compare to the non commitment of 1 bomb, they are very much different things, but if devil gamba is bottom tier then by the same logic i think key beggar should be lower it too. Pd: this is probably bad gameplay, but you know what i do with when im presented with a sac room and devil gambler in the same floor... All in baby!! Soul hearts are just more fuel!!! Leaving the floor proudly with half a soul heart and the power of God and Devil by my side. I rest my case.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
@@santiagovidelaleiva I do generally agree that something being outclassed does not merit it being of a lower tier. For example, there are many flight items in the game. If you take the most basic flight item, transcendence, it is objectively worse than the rest of them, and completely redundant to have it alongside the others. However, the base value of the item is still good. While it does technically compete with other flight items, you won't always find multiple flight items, so it's better to mostly judge it as if it's your first one. Imo this logic doesn't work for hell game, which is why I think it being outclassed does lower it's ranking. The difference is how common the competition is. You aren't guaranteed to find another flight item, but you are extremely likely to have blood donation or a sac room on the same floor as hell game. The instant you encounter the hell game, you already have access to it's competition. Using hell game directly means you are not using the blood donation or sac room, since the amount you can use them is limited by how much health you have available. If blood donation and sacrifice room were a lot rarer, making it unlikely that hell game is on the same floor as them, then I'd treat it more like transcendence, where I believe it's worse than the other options but still useful for what it offers. But in reality that situation is very rare. Key master actually both benefits and is hurt from this. It's hurt by it early game when your keys are valuable for opening shops and item rooms. But in womb onwards, keys become a lot less useful, and key master ends up becoming one of the only good ways to use an excess number of keys. He has practically 0 competition so he's easier to use despite his rewards not being amazing. I definitely understand your point overall, and it can be difficult to decide whether stuff like this should count for the criteria. But I do think it makes sense for this list in particular, since I consider it important to consider how much value you are getting from your consumables from the machine / beggar vs how much you expect to get from them normally.
@JohnDoe-JohnDoe
@JohnDoe-JohnDoe 5 месяцев назад
i dont think you guys mentioned that beggars are THE GOAT of rigging if you have a reroll. Especially if you have a judgement card and put down a coin beggar in secret room or other good item pool, you pay him like 10 coins, reroll his mid item and you get possibly a really good item. That's why i would bump him up to low rly good, because he's the easiest beggar to pay out and spawn on demand.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Definitely did overlook that at the time. I knew it felt a little wrong having him at top of mid, I knew I wanted him bottom of rly good, but I couldn't think of the reason. I'm actually not sure if spawning him with the card would work with our criteria, but if it counts then yeah this is definitely a reason for him to be in rly good tier. It'll def be something we talk about in the card tier list soon though, I often bring judgement cards to my next floor because I can either use them for extra devil chance on certain floors or if I get a perthro then it's an easy secret room item.
@artsyvids2563
@artsyvids2563 3 месяца назад
I guess random normal beggars are mid, though card spawned and jacobs ladders one are definitely better because of dem rerolls. I think the red arcade should be Ehhhhh though.
@Corrupted
@Corrupted 5 месяцев назад
Man, I get WAYYYYY more fly friends than skatole, probably a 10:1 rate for me lmao
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
A few people have said this, but the numbers just... don't add up. Like you need dream luck to get as many pretty flies as everyone says they get. Using the numbers it's actually OBJECTIVELY more likely to get payouts from shell game in pretty much every scenario. I think the reason is that shell game takes a lot longer to play so people play him less. Or maybe because the time takes longer, people think they are getting less payout, when actually they are getting more payout per coin, it just doesn't seem that way. At the very least I'm certain that there is an explanation for the bias because yeah this isn't even a debate, shell game is better mathematically speaking, it's one of the rare times I feel like I can make an objective conclusion between 2 things here.
@benro6564
@benro6564 5 месяцев назад
Idea: ranking bosses by difficulty
@Reactivity760
@Reactivity760 5 месяцев назад
I was saying to myself today.. okay i watched half the character buffs im finishing it today and now this appeared
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
My b 😂
@snowgrindur2
@snowgrindur2 5 месяцев назад
If I’m putting 99 coins in a slot I better be getting 3 pretty flies
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
I forgot that slot machine blows up when you use it 2% of the time, which is over twice as likely as getting a single pretty fly. Even without the chance to blow up, you still have a decent chance to get no flies with 99 coins. Manner must only be remembering the good slot machines because this is a rare case where my argument against slot machine is literally objectively backed up by math lol, the majority of machines will blow up before you get a single fly.
@snowgrindur2
@snowgrindur2 4 месяца назад
@@turtier that’s a fair point. I think I might also be blinded by the few runs that I’ve snagged 2-3 flies off of one machine. They were probably luck foot runs
@DhopaDoi
@DhopaDoi 5 месяцев назад
Waiting for the ultimate all 716 items tier list
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Thatll be streamed at some point
@pumkinswift8263
@pumkinswift8263 5 месяцев назад
Gonna leave my thoughts here as the video goes Normal slot machine - Pretty bad. You can hit it if you're desperate for a key or have nothing to spend your money on in the late game. Pills are sometimes good. I think the chance of getting pretty fly is pretty low imo? I get like one every other time I dump all my money into them on womb. That's when I'm at close max money or at max money. I think Manner is tripping when he says he gets multiple pretty flies from slot machines, that's literally never happend to me unless I have a pretty fly pill lol. Playing it for a dollar bill is super unrealistic imo. Shell game - mid af, about as good as slot machine. I prefer slots just because they're easier to play and better to bomb. I do think Beezlebub is a legit point in its favor, you should always keep an eye on your transformation progress. It's not unrealistic to see two fly items, see the skull game and be like "oh I could try for beezlebub here". Super practical use cast that honestly I'm going to try to introduce into my runs now. Still, I'd put them both in ehh tho. On average, they're just too low impact on the run. Temperance - Easy S tier. I don't always use them because I don't have the health to spare, but in that case you can bomb them and have a good chance at getting health. Always nice to get, sometimes game breaking, and often super good. also, spindown blood bag into brimstone goes brrrrr Fortune telling machine - also goated imo. I'd put it into S tier. Extra soul hearts can save your ass late game, getting a better trinket is also amazing because you see so few of them. Crystal ball is also a pretty cool active item. Fortune telling machine has saved way too many of my runs. dono machine - tbh I'm actually super conservative with bombing my dono machine but it can give you super strong starts. I think its waaaaaay better than slots or skull guy, you get it every run. The consistency of dono machine makes me want to put it into rlly good honestly. normal beggar - i'd put him into really good just because he has so many uses. Gives you payouts super easily, bombing him for deal chance is goated. I do it every floor if I can Devil beggar - just as good as normal beggar. slightly worse to bomb but has better payouts if you can play him. Also really good. Key beggar - scam, I never play this idiot. I feel like I never have the keys to spare, and he never pays out. I can't remember the last time I had the keys to spare that I didn't just get skeleton key. bomb beggar - for some reason I have better memories of this guy, but I'm probably jsut tripping because of dr fetus runs. looking at the stats for him, he's awful lol. def a scam. Charge beggar - honestly? Maybe goated as well just because of how broken he can be. Literal game breaks with d6, though not having an active item you can abuse off of him every run makes it a lot harder to argue for. Probably just really good tier, but on isaac he's legit S tier. I don't know why you guys are so down on him, on isaac specifically he's always insane rotten beggar, confessional, crane game, hell games - Gonna be super honest here, I don't have dead god yet, so I have no idea how good these are lol. I literally jsut unlocked rotten beggar, but I haven't played enough for me to know how good he is. the others I just don't have. restock machine - easy goated. reverse judgment or whatever it is is such a gamebreak. definately s tier
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Thanks for the comment! I love these long debate ones, i will say that i only brought dollar bill up only because i think its as common as getting beelzebub imo
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
We both agree that battery is Sss tier on isaac, but the list is considering ALL characters, which makes him have SUPER high highs, but only about 10% of the time
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Someone agrees that bombing for devil chance is goated? Yes, someone might finally understand why I like rotten beggar! Basically, his payouts are super bad, I've only ever done it when I'm right at the end of a run with nothing else to spend money on (he usually just gives a lot of blue flies, so it's good for the final boss ig, they are common in corpse so its relevant for mother runs sometimes). But the real value is that you can just bomb them. It's unfortunate bombing a regular beggar sometimes because it means you can't play him, but rotten beggar is so bad that it's easier to justify the bomb every time. Basically I consider these as "1 bomb for devil chance" which I think is usually a good trade, and now if there's other beggars on the floor I can just happily use them lol. He's obviously on the lower end of the list but I think bombing for devil chance alone is more relevant than the other low entries. And yeah slot machine pretty flies are even less relevant now that I remember that 2% of the time the machine explodes when you use it. That's more than twice as likely to happen than getting a pretty fly. So literally according to the math, most machines you play will blow up before you get any pretty flies, let alone 3. I also thought shell game should be in eh but after thinking about it more, I think it's underrated and it actually belongs in mid. I'm glad you agree that beezlebub is a relevant factor. Considering that hive mind and jar of flies both exist in the shop, it's fairly often that I'll get a random fly item from an item room, I get 1 from the shop, and I finish with shell game. Hive mind is good to buy in general and I'll sometimes have floors with jar of flies in shop and a shell game arcade and I can literally force beezlebub despite having only 1 fly item. And shell games payout rate for consumables is a lot higher than slot machine (slot machine is 24% to pay out, and it does 1 consumable at a time, but shell game is 33% for 2 consumables at a time, so it's way more efficient for any run that is low on consumables). Overall this just means I never touch slot machine early game and I'm disappointed by it late game, while shell game doesn't always do much but when I do actually use it, it's quite a good help.
@empiretoast1820
@empiretoast1820 5 месяцев назад
Confessionals can remove active curses
@benro6564
@benro6564 5 месяцев назад
AB+ reroll and donation machines would be in god tier
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Literally
@haellm9192
@haellm9192 5 месяцев назад
Demon shell game is really good, it gives black hearts on better rates than dark bum
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Does it? I don't know the rates for hell game, I assume its an equal 1/7 for any of the 7 reward options to be chosen (spiders, coins, bombs, keys, card/rune, black heart, devil item), meaning 14% for any particular option, and a 1/3 chance to actually win, so on average 1.5 hearts per payout. Dark bum is exactly 1.5 hearts per payout too and it has 40% for black heart. It definitely could be a higher payout rate than dark bum if the hell game options aren't equal though, so I'm curious if anyone has the exact numbers.
@haellm9192
@haellm9192 5 месяцев назад
@@turtier i seem to be getting dark hearts most often, maybe like 3 out of 7 inputs
@braketbro2318
@braketbro2318 5 месяцев назад
Rotten beggar is the definition of scam no questions asked. Playing him is absolute garbage and he actually replaces regular beggars not key beggars so the devil deal chance is irrelevant even if its good. Unlocking him literally makes the save file worse. While I'm at it putting regular beggar bellow charge begger is insane. Fuck the highs if we are giving charge beggar the edge becous of d6 and other op activities why are we ignoring the regular beggar being an extremely easy pedestal spawn for secret room rigging.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
The criteria for this was "when you encounter the beggar, how much impact does it usually have". So the factors are only the chance for it to do anything, and then how big that impact actually is. So for rotten beggar, playing him with coins is definitely a scam, but bombing for devil chance is 1 bomb for it to do something on average 1 in 11 encounters (which I think is more likely than I'll get impact from bomb beggar, for example) and then the impact when it does happen is fairly good, since the average devil / angel deal is good (which I also think is higher than the impact I'll get from playing bomb beggar). Since this is the criteria, both his rarity and the fact he replaces key masters isn't taken into account. I WOULD take these things into account if we were ranking the UNLOCK itself (if we did a list on what the tainted chars unlock from mega stan, then I'd take those factors into account too. But for this list, it's just the beggar itself). By the way, it definitely does only replace key masters specifically, I know from experience, but it also is confirmed on the wiki too. I think rotten beggar is being underrated only because it isn't obvious when the 8.8% actually matters. If, theoretically speaking, text saying "BEGGAR MATTERED" appeared when the devil / angel deal spawned from the extra chance, then I almost guarantee that everyone would appreciate it way more and way fewer people would think it's scam tier. Regarding regular beggar being in rly good, I do agree. I reroll the pedestal all the time and for some reason it didn't come to mind during the vid. I'm actually not entirely sure if it works within our criteria, since that's more a function of the judgement card rather than the beggar himself? Not sure, I can see it counting, but I could see it not counting. But it was a legitimate oversight that it wasn't at least brought up. EDIT - Just remembered, we talked about using reverse judgement cards in the angel room for restock machine! So for consistency, regular beggar spawning from judgement card would need to be considered too. So yeah, it was just an oversight, it probably should be in rly good and possibly above battery bum!
@braketbro2318
@braketbro2318 5 месяцев назад
​@@turtier as far as rotten beggar goes doenst he replace the regular bum in the secret room with a blood donation machine and a beggar. The wiki technically says that the key bum replaces him so its still possible. The regular beggar also increases deal chance and its alot more common then the rotten variant. Overall i wouldnt say rotten beggar is better than bomb beggar but hes definetly still a scam. Still im sorry if i came off as rude. i was only trashing the beggar itself not the video.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
@@braketbro2318 You're good, dw. I just like preaching about rotten beggar LOL. I WILL defend my underrated man! Or... I will defend the act of blowing him up..? I guess that technically makes me his biggest hater XD There's 2 super secret room layouts that contain a blood donation machine and a beggar. The one that contains the regular beggar has the beggar a bit of a distance away from the blood donation machine. I think it's still possible to hit both of them with 1 bomb but you need to be fairly precise (easy to do if the room entrance was on the top or bottom wall, but hard if it was on the left or right wall). The one with the rotten beggar has him right next to the machine, its very easy to hit both of them with the bomb. This layout is the one that has a key bum before you unlock rotten beggar. Since the secret rooms are fairly similar it makes sense that you might have seen the rotten beggar one and assumed it was the same as the regular beggar one. Actually, turns out the wiki has the room weightings, I didn't know that! Assuming the weighting probability works like I think it does, I believe that the room with the rotten beggar is a 1/16 (which is as common as any individual layout seems to be, the regular beggar layout is also 1/16). There are 6 floors each run where the devil chance matters (floor 1 is 0% and floor 2 is 100%, so we can ignore those). So if you are hunting for super secret rooms a lot, you'll see the rotten beggar one every 3 runs, and if we assume you aren't finding the super secret room every floor then it's still probably every 3-5 runs. These numbers make sense to me, I knew they weren't as rare as people were saying, I see that secret room often enough that it feels relevant to me. Either way, this doesn't actually matter, because as I said earlier the list criteria wasn't taking into account the rarity of the beggar anyway. It doesn't matter that the regular beggar is more common, since that just means you can get away with bombing the rotten beggar and actually playing out the regular beggar instead (in the situation where you have them on the same floor). All that matters for the sake of this list is that you get a devil / angel deal every 11 encounters, which I think is reasonably impactful. The criteria was done this way because otherwise we would also have to bring down other beggars or machines that are rare, and that didn't feel useful as a comparison (for a different example, you are much less likely to find R key on a run than you are to find something like breakfast. But the rarity shouldn't matter, all that matters is that R key is basically a guaranteed win, I don't think I've ever lost a run with it, therefore it's top of S tier). Extremely common things still got a slight boost (eg blood dono) but if it's not something you can expect to see every run, then you can expect the rarity to be ignored. You could make bomb bum appear every 3 runs and rotten beggar every 1 million and by the nature of the criteria I would still say rotten beggar is better because imo he has more average impact on the times you actually do see him.
@marty13612
@marty13612 3 месяца назад
The Skatole vs. Pretty Fly argument is crazy haha, who plays the machines for those, I will only play them if Im low on health, keys, or bombs, and I feel like Shell game pays off way more. Otherwise I will save coins for a coin beggar. Also your 3 pretty fly's vs. beelzebub argument was so terrible given how adament you were that it was somehow objectively correct or something lmao, its a 4.3% chance to get >= 3 pretty flies with 99 coins, but again, thats not really the point of the machine. Getting a dollar from bombing it is a better argument.
@turtier
@turtier 2 месяца назад
Dollar is only from playing it too. And the numbers for playing slot machine are terrible. Especially because I forgot to mention the chance that the machine blows up when you play it, which decreases the chance for a fly even more. Skatole is good to go for only at 2/3 fly items and when you don't already have flight, because in that context skatole just directly gives you flight and that's worth playing for, the context isn't super unlikely either. But yeah, otherwise you just play them for consumables, and shell game has much better value for money, makes slot machine completely irrelevant.
@panfoo7718
@panfoo7718 5 месяцев назад
ngl shell game sucks and never pays out when you want/need it to, and is only ever good if you have a surplus of coins + ran through the other machines on the floor already + searched the shop and don't have more shops ahead of you or have the means to generate more coins easily besides that, shell games is only good when you blow it up for pick ups
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
I think it's the same for slot machine. But shell game actually isn't bad at catching you up on bombs / keys if you are really low. It's definitely not completely consistent but the majority of the machines aren't, you can high roll or low roll on most of them. Forcing beezlebub with shell game is deceptively easier than you would think too.
@hristomir-zw6bg
@hristomir-zw6bg 5 месяцев назад
Bomb beggar maybe is a scam but have a higher potential then the zombie beggar. If you have the scissors trinket and you bomb him you can farm infinite bombs with him and then trade this bombs. Eventually you will get a item which will make your bombs better + you already have 99 bombs so you can use them on the bosses and do massive damage or at least search for secret and super secret rooms on every floor.
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
We do know about this interaction, I didn't bother bringing it up because it's too much of a high roll. In general, we are trying to rank how something performs on average, and on average you will not have safety scissors. It is definitely a powerful synergy though. In comparison to rotten beggar, I'd say the equivalent to safety scissors would be getting an S tier item from a devil deal that you would not have got without the extra chance for blowing him up. Both that scenario and safety scissors are high rolls, we can't expect either to happen. That's why I see rotten beggar as "I'll get 1 devil / angel deal in 11 rotten beggars", and devil / angel deals on average are good so that means the more I blow them up, the more likely I'll get a good run, it makes sense and it does feel meaningful enough, definitely not something that's super amazing though thats why it's bottom of mid AT MOST for me.
@mellowrath4217
@mellowrath4217 5 месяцев назад
I forgor if the shell game dude gives you a better deal chance % or not?
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
Unfortunately he does not. Although tbf, since he spawns in almost every arcade, it would be a little too powerful if he gave devil chance.
@june9914
@june9914 5 месяцев назад
He is affected by luck foot though
@Paweu240
@Paweu240 5 месяцев назад
3 skulls are busted Blood bum busted Magic one is mid, Normal bum is rly good And bomb bum is rly good free money in mid game Claw machine is ehhh Blood 3 skull is scam yep I will change only that
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
I like to see the shell game appreciation!
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
​@@turtierfor once 😂
@june9914
@june9914 5 месяцев назад
The chance of getting at least 1 pretty fly from 99 Pennys is like 50%, and that’s not accounting four machines paying out with money. I don’t know why your friend is calcing the odds of fly and crystal ball as 1/probility when you stop when you get your rewards
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
I'm aware that there's more to the probability than just the expected value of 1/probability, but for the sake of simplicity it's a good enough metric to say that it takes on average 128 coins. Even from what you are saying, that's still a 50% that you give 99 coins and get nothing. It's true that the coins you get will let you play it longer but it's also true that it's more likely that the machine will explode (2% chance) before you get a pretty fly. My point was basically that you are spending the entire money cap for a chance that still isn't guaranteed for a single orbital which is nice but not super relevant. You can say you might high roll the good reward and get it cheap but I think that's a pretty bad argument because most the time that won't happen. Meanwhile shell game is better value for money early game when you might need the consumables and it's much higher impact on any runs that get 2/3 fly items (which happens often enough to be relevant, especially since jar of flies and hive mind are shop items).
@kinglyknight
@kinglyknight 3 месяца назад
Rotten bumb is scam
@bartoszmadycki9807
@bartoszmadycki9807 5 месяцев назад
I think rotten beggar and bomb bum should be swapped. There is a specific game break that involves safety scissors and bomb bum that 99% of the time gives you 99 coins and unlimited life. I think it is situational, but even potencial of having infinite bombs, coins, hearts, restocks in the shop is WAAAAAAAY better than devil deal chance
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
We do know about this synergy, but in general specific item synergies won't have too much weighting because it's rare to get it to happen. Safety scissors is the main limiting factor here, but even bomb bum isn't super common, so sometimes you get the scissors but don't see him anyway. Meanwhile the devil chance from bombing a rotten beggar, even if we only assume the 8.8% increase, that's an extra devil deal every 11 rotten beggars. So I can say that in 11 runs I get an extra devil deal and I... get the safety scissors combo maybe every 50 runs? It might be more. And sometimes I get the combo and I already had high bombs and money. I don't think it gives infinite life because he will probably pay out with the bomb upgrade before you get a significant amount of hearts, and it's probably just red hearts. If you told me I could have the safety scissors bomb beggar combo, or 5 devil / angel deals, I'm taking the devil / angel deals, I don't even think it's particularly close. I can't even put the bomb beggar over hell game for the safety scissors combo because I think hell game will have more times to shine on certain floors that have a lot of spare red hearts.
@latermanner
@latermanner 5 месяцев назад
Agreed 😂
@humanbloger5533
@humanbloger5533 5 месяцев назад
Omg turt hiiiiii
@turtier
@turtier 5 месяцев назад
I've been spotted...
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