Ranking the BEST Runs in Isaac Repentance 

Even i as an fast player, not skilled but fast enough while picking the most amount of items i come across (playing normally but not minmaxing at all), i only make it to boss rush if i have an dumb broken run that pulverizes everything in sight around depth 1-2, which means everything during boss rush get deleted without it mostly blinking unless is bloat and adversary, so its boring every time i reach and do it. or unless i start to skip treasure item rooms which is extremely unsatisfying and makes me feel like an worse player for doing such an thing when i end up loosing around depth 1-2, or forward if i did not make it intime.

I think Boss Rush is good to have in the game, but I do think keeping in mind that it's a completion mark is important. I think Turt is exaggerating how hard it can be to make boss rush if you play fast. You do have to get a bit lucky sometimes, but if you try to go fast and bomb out of bullshit rooms you can almost always make it. Still, I think having a few ways if you're going fast to get it easier would be nice. Maybe making it so that you never get cursed if you did the last floor fast enough or maybe making the map or the compass spawn more if you're going fast

THANK YOU! You get exactly where I was going with the argument. I really appreciate variety in a roguelike.

I definitely am looking at it from a completionist angle, but I think that makes sense for isaac in particular. It's a game that tracks your completion next to each character before you start a run, and I haven't seen a single person play isaac and not try to finish all the completion marks on everyone (they don't always finish it all, but they at least start on it). In that sense, boss rush IS something that pretty much every player will think they have to do. I'd vastly prefer if there was just an achievement to beat boss rush 10 times, maybe even requiring that its 10 different characters, rather than it being a completion mark for each character. Cause I agree that it's good to have the mode in the game, but I don't think having to do it so often is very fun for certain players. This would also get around the issue of it actually being poorly designed for certain characters (tcain and tlaz. You can fault the characters here, and there is some merit to that, but it's also kind of a problem on boss rush that it makes it possible for future character design to conflict with it). I also think it existing but not being a completion mark would still drive certain players who enjoy it to do it on every character anyway. I've been playing slay the spire, and you only have to beat the secret boss in act 4 ONCE on each character for 100%, your ascension level will increase even if you only beat the normal ending in act 3. Yet, I'm still choosing to not go to the next ascension level until I beat act 4 on the current ascension. In the absence of the game requiring that, I chose to do it anyway. A player who does not want to does not have to. THIS is choice. Boss rush being a completion mark on everyone does not feel like that. If it existed but not as a completion mark, players would still be able to choose to do it anyway. That's the better way to implement it IMO.

@@pumkinswift8263 THIS! I do actually say in the video too that I don't even think the timer is that harsh and I make it most of the time too. It's more that my boss rush runs are consistently my most bland and uninteresting runs, followed by what literally feels like waiting simulator when I'm fighting the actual boss rush waves, and then paired with semi frequent frustration of missing it because I took the wrong initial direction as I started the floor, paired with enemy rooms that take a while to complete and having a low number of bombs so I can't bomb through all the problematic rooms. Small fail-safes like you suggested would definitely make it vastly more enjoyable for me.

The thing about boss rush is that its not really that hard for people who are more experienced its just really really long and can take a long time to complete for mediocre rewards aka two items, it can sometimes be worth it but it'll always take a long time to complete even if you're able to beat the 2 bosses in seconds due to having 15 waves Had it been 3 bosses at a time it'd significantly up the challenge and make it less waves in total maybe adding actual challenge

You actually get 7 floors for beast, since you go to mausoleum 2 from depths 2, which does contain an item room and a shop, but no boss item or devil/angel chance. But even despite that it definitely is the earliest, since the ascent floors honestly don't really count. Thing with the gauntlet is that since you get healed and given a mantle after dogma, it makes his part feel irrelevant sometimes. Like sure, you might have less health than you had before, but you know you'll always have 7 hits minimum for next section, which is still a fair amount. The harbingers are good, the attack patterns on some are a little basic but they generally are pretty good and will still hit me occasionally. But then beast... when I said in the video that I died the first time I fought beast, that wasn't actually accurate. I died to one of the harbingers. I didn't actually die to beast for ages afterwards, I felt near capable of no hitting him pretty much immediately because the attack patterns were so basic and the hp wasn't high enough. Even the first time I fought him, the spectacle was brought down a bit by how easy the boss was. I mostly find it a shame because phase 2 has some unique attacks and you never really get to see them, meanwhile phase 3 honestly offers nothing. A small change such as removing phase 3 or making it trigger later would give such a massive boost to the boss in my eyes. There's just a few small things holding him back A LOT for me so fixing any of those issues makes a big difference imo.

@@turtier yes, I do in fact still forget you get a Mausoleum floor for Beast having 1000+ hours in Isaac, I'm just built different like that. Anyway, I don't think HP buff is ever a good thing for a boss design. Making something harder by making it more tedious is just bad. What I think would be a better solution is simply making it run in a straight line less so it would actually get to it's attacks faster and be fast enough to cycle through them rather than rarely being able to even use two. Or maybe actually lessen the HP but only make it targetable during the attacks interested of charge, like put a hitbox exclusively in its open mouth. But then again, the reason I like Beast is because I feel like I can beat it even with little to no items. I think I had multiple times where I only had a single tear up or small damage up as my combat items and I still was able to pull through and it felt really satisfying, like I really did this with my skill, not item RNG. All attacks feel fair and dodgable and it's less of "dodge this hard attack twice and ur good" and more like "dodge those easy attacks 50 times in a row", which is why I really like it. Even Hush (which is my second favourite boss) can get really bad if you don't have good items to quickly kill blue things and enemies he spawns or have some effect that screws you up on a laser beam, while Beast feels like a pure skill check all around.

@@MilesProwerUA I agree than unnecessary hp buffs aren't good and can just make things more tedious, but I think beast is legitimately a problem of him not having enough hp. I mean, in 1500+ hours of repentance, I think I can say with confidence that I've seen beast use an attack in phase 2 less than 10 times. It might even be close to 5. I joked to someone in a different comment that I only see a phase 2 attack every 300 hours, but tbh that might be true LOL. I wouldn't even be that surprised if there is a phase 2 attack I haven't seen before. Mother has some rare attacks in phase 1, such as the dead gaper one, but I believe that attack is intentionally rare and I've still seen it more times than all the beast phase 2 attacks combined. Never have I played a game before where it is this easy to skip an entire phase of a boss and never see it's attacks. That to me indicates that he needs more health. All that being said a better solution probably is just to lower the threshold for entering phase 3, since phase 3 is so easy. Literally easier than phase 1, it's just dodging between the stalagmites, the same as phase 1 but without any additional attacks. I legitimately think I get hit a higher % of the time fighting larry jr than I do against beast phase 3. So even if beast had the same amount of current health, but they made phase 2 last longer and phase 3 shorter, it would be much better I think.

I agree, one thing people need to realise you're dealing with a lot of new attack patterns all at once, though it is helped by being souped up versions of previous encounters with similar styles

@@MilesProwerUA I'd argue that Mother can also be beaten purely based on skills consistently. That's a "hard" boss done right. but let's say, for cinematic purposes, the first time you face Beast, they want you to win and make most attacks sight-readable (except ultra death skull attack), it's still possible to make the beast fight harder after beating him once.

Thanks! Hope you enjoy

Rupty!

I just about died when he said he had an objectively better argument than me LOL. For this type of discussion its about game design so it's more subjective than the other lists we do (other lists are obviously still subjective, but it's easier to make objective arguments). I think boss rush can be good in concept, as shown by Hush, and by speed achievements in other games, I can still have fun with speed challenges even though I'm a slow player by default. I thought that boss rush being so frustrating for me is a sign that it's badly designed in the sense that it doesn't account for appealing to one of the two big player archetypes (fast / speedrun players vs slow / minmax players, and most slow players won't like the mark, I consider that bad design, you need to tweak it a bit to make it more fun for the slow players).

@@turtier I completely agree with that. It’s become one of the more annoying marks to complete as it forces me into what I feel is typically a bad run. Most of the time I end up going through the rush and then die shortly after since I was skipping so much and prioritizing time. It does feel like a polarizing mark for players that enjoy to play the game differently. I actually like Hush since it feels more fair in terms of time but I agree with all of the points you made in the video about boss rush. Easily dog water tier

The actual boss rush room itself is something that you will get better at with time, I'll get hit occasionally but generally I'm not worried about dying in there unless I'm a character with extremely limited health such as the lost or keeper. However it is consistently boring to fight every single time, it's too long and too easy so it just feels like I'm waiting for it to finish. Actually making it there is still something that I find inconsistent even with 2500 hours in the game. I disagree extremely with Manner saying its a high skill mark, I think out of every completion mark in the game, this one is the lowest skill, by far. It's out of your control, if you get bad items / keep getting active items in every item room, then you won't have enough power to make it in time. It's that simple. This is only really true for boss rush (and kinda hush, since it also has a time limit), for every other completion mark in the game I feel like you can still win even with really bad item rooms, just from your skill alone, which I think by default makes boss rush the lowest skill mark. And there are extra luck elements than normal, because now the floor generation matters. You might go the wrong direction, and miss boss rush just because of that. And even the enemies and bosses you fight on the way matters, because some enemy rooms or bosses just take waaaaaaay longer to fight than others, and there isn't much you can do about that.

I never died to boss rush, because the only times i make it in time is due to an overpowered run, rushing to it will always lead to an bad run due to skipping items and wasting other stuff, and mostly being at low health due to poor damage from not getting items or deals

I want to as well! But it's going to be hard to figure out the format or even just the time to record it. It would be a project we eventually do but I have no idea when.

Just a difference in playstyle. I did say during the video that some players can make it naturally, Manner didn't think it was possible but I know that some players just play a lot faster normally. But I really take my time and I will minmax everything possible, you bet I'm running across my floor multiple times, so I'll never make it in normal play. I've made it in time playing normally on some naturally really fast characters, like azazel and tainted samson, but even as those characters I won't make it most of the time unless I try. I actually find mausoleum boss rush harder to make, although I haven't attempted it in an extremely long time so I'm not sure.

Thanks so much for the support! And yeah i like the light beam idea for enemies spawning in, its definitely a major issue with the mode. P.s.s - Beast absolutely SHOULD BE HIGHER

We didnt make boss rush what can i say 😂

@@latermanner haha my pleasure mate, keep up the good work

We didn't just miss boss rush while talking about boss rush, we missed hush too! Enemy spawn telegraph should have existed a long time ago in general. Enter the gungeon does it perfectly. Isaac needs that for greed mode, challenge rooms, boss rush, etc. Although I guess I forgot to mention it because rep fixed some of the issues with it. It definitely still does get you sometimes though and telegraph would be nice. And yeah, we do have very different opinions! The origin story behind me becoming a guest for these lists was because I left a detailed comment on his character tier list and then we ended up debating in the comments. Was pretty healthy debate so we thought it might work well as live discussion and here we are lol.

​@@turtier That's really cool! And yeah it's great that you guys have those debates because the most interesting points get brought up during them

There's several characters that I think are very hard to do the speed run completion marks for. Tainted Lazarus is probably the hardest for me unless I get Mama Mega or get the blue key trinket to cheat my way into those areas. Tained blue Baby, Tainted Eden, Tainted Cain, Tainted Lost and Jacob + Esau are all also quite difficult because they either are really under powered, really fragile, really volatile, or basically require min-maxing as their core gameplay mechanic. Also I can't tell you how many times that I have been on schedule for boss rush, and I get curse of the fucking lost on depths 2 (which in addition to taking away your map it also makes the floor bigger). And I've missed boss rush as a result.

@@FirstLast-mn4re You said the floor gets bigger and I thought "nah you're confusing it with wrath of the lamb curse of the lost" but I fact checked before I corrected you and... WHAT SINCE WHEN I DID NOT KNOW LOL I mean it's only by up to 4 extra rooms so it's extremely minor but wow. I always find it amazing that even after 2500 hours I still find out new things occasionally XD (also this is why it's good to fact check before correcting people because I would have looked real stupid LOL)

I already consistently hit 1h+ for runs. That mod would make me take like 3-4 hours LOL.

Yep! I think mother is the most difficult FAIR boss. We don't talk about the real most difficult boss XD

FACTS

Thank you! I was going to eventually go through the old videos and include the time stamps in my pinned comment. Do you mind if I use these for my comment?

@@turtier it's fine use it

EXACTLY! I think under normal circumstances, there are an extremely low amount of unwinnable seeds (the majority of them would probably be eden tmtrainer starts with an instant death early glitch item or eden starts with abysmal stats and the champ rag man that spams health regen), I personally don't think I've ever played a run where I lost in a way that felt unavoidable. But boss rush... that happens fairly often. I think if you have knowledge of what the map looks like then a lot of the seeds are winnable, but under normal circumstances you can just walk the wrong way in depths 1-2 and lose boss rush just from that. In a normal run, the main RNG factor is what items you get. In boss rush, bad item RNG can screw you over even more since you don't have time to minmax to something better, but you also have additional RNG factors that normally don't matter, those being which direction you go and the types of enemies or bosses you encounter. Because some enemies or bosses take way longer to beat. Legitimately if I start in cellar and I get a 2x2 room full of spiders, it sometimes already feels like I've missed boss rush, it's not game ending but it sets you behind quite a lot. I find that I have a fair number of boss rush runs that have really low dps that the mum boss fight takes a while on it's own.

@@turtier i was running for boss rush the other day with an early epic fetus in a treasure room which should be a free win, so I cleared most of the floors asap to get the boss rush door- but got red mom which takes forever to kill with bombs as the leg disappears too fast to hit, so it took me 3 minutes of waiting for eyes to appear in the fight so I could kill it which put me over 20 minutes and I had to restart. I get Manner’s point that it’s a different and challenging way to play isaac which is a good thing, but it’s not good if the run relies so much on pure luck and not the player’s skill.

@@BossHogLive Fully agree. I'm not against the concept of speedrun achievements, I've liked them in other games, I like the Speed! challenge in isaac too, and I don't mind the 30 min timer on hush. I mean, I still prefer the runs where I can take my time, and the hush boss fight is really good so I think it's a little unfortunate that the timer prevents me from fighting the boss more often, but in terms of a speed challenge it isn't at all an issue if I'm trying, it's more likely to be my own fault that I missed it. So boss rush definitely could have worked, either as a one off achievement, or as a completion mark with a bit of an easier time requirement. I've heard some suggestions such as being immune to curses or making mapping items spawn more often if you are going fast, and I think small things like that would help a lot. Personally, the suggestion I'd want the most is to remove the requirement to beat the first boss in 1 minute for mums shovel to spawn (maybe keep it for the first time when you unlock the forgotten, but remove the requirement afterwards). On my most recent save file, knowing that tcain boss rush is difficult, and not wanting to rely on finding a mama mega recipe, I decided to try getting my boss rush mark with mums shovel (I needed to unlock the forgotten anyway, so 2 birds with 1 stone). It was probably more difficult than just trying boss rush normally, and there was a little frustration sometimes since the foot hitboxes are a little jank, but damn, if the 1 minute requirement wasn't impossible on most seeds and characters, then I'd totally do this more often. It still forced me to play differently, I couldn't minmax as long because the longer you stick around, the more opportunity you have to accidentally screw up and get stomped. So it encouraged me to play faster or differently, but without putting a hard 20 min timer on me. The mums shovel tcain run was significantly more interesting than any other successful boss rush run would have been (which usually just involves getting lucky with crafting an S tier item early). For most characters, it would still be much easier to just make the 20 min timer, but the option to forego the timer in exchange for giving yourself a harder run overall, I think that's purely a good thing and would make boss rush less polarising to different playstyles.

Not entirely relevant to what I was saying but I would prefer it if boss rush was always open but there are five items in the room and you can take all the items except for every minute above 15 you can take one item less or one of the items just disappears maybe make the items min quality 3 or something like that. Idk.

THIS! I wish I worded it this way, it's basically exactly what I wanted to say. As I said in the video, I don't mind boss rush existing, I like it as a reward that encourages fast play. But I don't like it as a requirement that punishes people who just want to take their time. I'd also be fine with it if it was a challenge that we didn't have to play so often (as I also said, I actually like the speed challenge, its fun as a one off challenge, but I don't think it works well as a completion mark that has to be done 34 times).

I said this in the video, but since Tainted Cain came after boss rush i think its more of a negative towards the characters' game design, rather than boss rush

@@latermanner that's a misunderstanding of my point so I'll use normal cain as example instead cain incentivises using pills and bloodbanks because lucky foot makes all pills good and bloodbanks pay out with more coins. You're not forced to use pills or bloodbanks you want get punished for leaving a pill behind but they do provide a benefit for playing that particular way. Boss rush does not do this as you are not rewarded for playing fast but instead punished for playing slow hence my suggestion in the second comment. I was doing tainted Jacob for dead God while watching the video and got to boss rush in under 15 minutes for its mark believe me I don't have an issue with the timer in and of itself but a binary yes or no to getting boss rush is what I take issue with. Though I don't think boss rush as a whole is a negative for the game nor do I think it should be removed I do think it should undergo some adjustments to make it more rewarding to fast players but less punishing to slow players. Tldr: tainted cain was a bad example my bad. My point was that rather than incentivising a playstyle by rewarding a player for playing that way, boss rush punishes players for not playing a certain way.

Craft mama mega >:)

Thanks for the comment, I like to see big comments on several placements like this. I also like boss rush in theory as a reward for playing fast, as I said in the video it's only the fact it's a completion mark that you have to do every 6 runs that makes me not like it (manner says thats not a lot but I disagree). Also it feels way worse to lose a boss rush run from missing the timer compared to actually dying from a boss or enemy while doing a different mark. I think holding R is generally a bad idea because it won't help you get better at the game (the moment I stopped holding R back in AB+, I started to improve considerably), although I agree that boss rush is an exception because if you don't get enough dps items then you actually just won't make it for no fault of your own. Although if I did it for boss rush I'd still think its dogwater or eww tier. For me, I can summarise boss rush runs into 2 categories. I either miss the timer because I wasn't able to minmax my way out of bad luck, which always feels terrible, or I get enough power and I make it but the run is very simple and boring. If I hold R I'll just get more of the simple and boring runs, so it doesn't actually solve the issue, I'd still rather be cursed to do only delirium runs for the rest of my life. Only boss rush runs I find fun are one's where I got mama mega because I can take my time afterwards LOL. I actually wish that the mums shovel piece had the 1 minute first boss requirement removed after you have unlocked the forgotten already. That would mean that almost every run can bomb the starting room to forego the boss rush timer at the expense of having no active item and being stomped on constantly. I did this to get tcain boss rush on my last save file, it was probably harder than just getting boss rush normally, I died a few times, it probably took longer, but it was way, way, way more fun and unique than every other boss rush run. I'd unironically do this every time I had a bomb on the first floor. The reason I can't is because most seeds physically cannot beat the first floor boss in 1 minute as normal characters (Azazel probably can on most seeds, although azazel boss rush runs are free anyway). I also like void floor and delirium in concept, it's just not well executed. I was really looking forward to the void update that kilburn said he might do. I do think it has potential and I would have trusted kilburn to do something great with it, so it was unfortunate that he didn't have time for it. I really think beast only needs some small changes for me to find it much better. Such as not getting a heal after dogma, or beast having higher health, or phase 3 honestly just being removed so we get more time in phase 2. Because based on what I've seen, phase 2 is actually interesting... but I've seen what feels like one attack from it every 300 hours. Everything else is so good but the beast segment itself honestly feels like it was fumbled and that is really really hard for me to ignore. Tiny changes would honestly go such a long way. Greed and greedier I do think need a rework. The concept is cool and I like that they exist, but every time I do the marks I kinda just feel like I'm getting them out of the way so I can play the actual game. It makes sense the side mode isn't as fun as the main mode, but I think considering that a majority of people aren't a huge fan of it, it indicates that it needs changes. That's why we ranked it low despite it being a very unique mark. I personally ban d20 breaks in greed because it would be too repetitive and boring for me. I did it once and then thought "that was fun the first time but I need to never do it again" lol. I actually don't mind greed mode but I do feel my strategy is almost always the exact same thing. I buy half price keys if I see them to cover myself for all the future floors, and I try and only buy items on a half price boss pedestal (or a treasure room pedestal if one spawns), unless I see an item that is super good and I can justify buying for 15c. So I definitely get what you mean by there not being much minmax potential. A lot of the fun I find in minmaxing is trying to take the current floor and current run and figure out the best decisions to make in the current context and try and get the most value out of everything offered. Greed mode is definitely much weaker in this regard considering I can just follow my same strategy every time regardless of context and I'll probably win lol.

@@turtier I still really disagree about boss rush. I don't think that hiding R for a good star5 is a bad idea, that's what speedrunners do and I don't think you could call them bad players as a category. Again, I think I just find speedrunning more interesting and think that Isaac is a fun speedgame, so I think that's where the disagreement comes from. I do think the game could do a bit more to make it enjoyable consistently like I mentioned somewhere else though

@@pumkinswift8263 I think you misunderstood what I was saying about holding R. I actually agreed that holding R for boss rush makes sense, I just said that I personally don't do it because I'd find the run to be too easy and boring if I did, so it wouldn't change my opinion on the mark at all. And I wasn't commenting on speedrunners holding R, I was talking about regular players. Holding R for speedrunning is completely different than the main reason people hold R, in speedrunning you have to do it because having a bad start just isn't viable for getting a good time. But the majority of the reason that people hold R is because they just don't want to use bad items. Generally I've found that new players do this, and it leads to a cycle where they get no experience with bad items, or even good items where the use cases aren't as obvious. It means the pool of items they can make good use out of is a lot smaller and it makes them reliant on good items rather than being adaptable to everything. This I say just as an observation of what happened to me when I stopped holding R, as well as what I've observed from new players who do hold R. I don't think that holding R means someone is a bad player, but I do think that players who don't hold R will improve at the game much faster, hence why I wouldn't recommend holding R in most cases. Again, speedrunners are entirely different. They are likely already experienced players if they are choosing to speedrun, but also it's just literally a viable strategy. I'm actually a bit unsure of what your stance of boss rush as a completion mark is. In the other comment chain you said "I think Boss Rush is good to have in the game, but I do think keeping in mind that it's a completion mark is important". I made the distinction in the video that I'd like the mode as an optional challenge but don't like it being a completion mark, so I thought you were agreeing with that, but are you actually saying the opposite, that you prefer it being a completion mark rather than an optional challenge? If so then I'd like to hear why you think it's better for it to be a completion mark rather than just being an optional speedrun incentive.

I agree with a lot you said here, although i will say that greed is the most minmaxable run in the game BY FAR, that being said it has other issues which make the marks lower for me

@@turtier I like it more as an additional speedrun challenge than a completion mark, but I like it as a completion mark ok. I find it can be a bit frustrating as a completion mark so I wish there were some systems like I mentioned to make it more consistent (ie: if you go fast enough several floors in a row, you don't get cursed or have an easier time finding compass/the map). Hush I really love as a completion mark because I think the half hour timer is enough to make you need to play somewhat differently, but not harsh enough that you have runs that realistically should have made it but you got unlucky. I find that happens more with boss rush. If Boss Rush had mechanics that made it more consistent and it was a run that you just had to play very differently, I'd really like it, but the inconsistency makes it really frustrating for me. I wouldn't go for it like I sometimes go for Hush just for fun because it's not my playstyle, but it would be something I like doing as a change of pace. Right now, it's something I appreciate and don't super mind having to do, but it's really annoying to get screwed on a run to Boss Rush and it happens slightly too much for me. I'd probably rank it as a mid Run right now, because it offers a ton to the game but has a ton of things that drag it down as a completion mark. I hope that makes sense. Basically I really like the idea of Boss Rush as a compeltion mark but I wish the implementation was a bit more consistent so it was less frustrating, and I love boss rush as a thing in the game aside from it being a completion mark.

❤

Thats what i thought too but i had also previously thought lost was in flash so i kept my mouth shut lol

In AB+ I definitely agree, but in Rep they gave it a lot of boss armour which is effectively health and I think it has enough now. Doesn't die nearly as fast as in AB+

I agree, audio balance was a lot better in secret room and character buffs tier list but for cursed room and this one it got unbalanced. Next video it should hopefully be fixed.

You kinda need to just get lucky with crafting something very good early on. Or managing to find a mama mega recipe. Alternatively, if you can try to beat the first boss in 1 minute (which will require a few resets) you can get the mums shovel piece. You'll be stomped on the entire run but the boss rush door will be forced open as long as you hold the shovel piece! I did this on my most recent save file. It's arguably harder than just getting enough luck to make the timer, but it feels more skill based and consistent to me, so it's worth a shot if you are crazy like me XD I once had a hush run where I had a first floor library and I discovered that 7 coins and 1 bomb gave me fates reward... an ok familiar being that cheap was insane, I spammed that recipe the whole run which allowed me to make the timer and I fought hush with like 5 of them lol. So if you don't mind holding R, then a starting library is very useful, and finding a really cheap but useful recipe is good too.

@@turtier well just did it last night and ngl it was miserable ☠️ and I'm finally done with tainted cain

Part of the reason why Tainted Cain is a terribly designed character

@@LaterMannerVODsDump He arguably is badly designed in general, but rush marks existing is not one of the reasons that tcain is badly designed. Rush marks are badly designed on their own and the flaws of rush marks are highlighted more when combined with characters that require minmaxing. Both are the problem.