So, a hard list to put together, but I can only work off what we have been shown in the books. It's not enough to say "such and such was a great general" only for every campaign we see to be a disaster. Remember this when you get to Horus, or Alpharius, they aren't S-tier for a reason. Additionally, the best generals are the ones who win wars, with minimal losses, and leave a compliant civilian population in their wake. If you win but it's an irradiated hellscape after, and all your troops are dead, did you really win? If you "win" but 5 seconds after you leave, the world turns around and rebels against you, you didn't win, you didn't subjugate it, you just cowed the enemy into guerilla mode. AKA you created your own Afghanistan withdrawl. These are all things to keep in mind when looking at the list, and adaptable leaders, who conquered and retained worlds, with minimal casualties and kept their eye on the big picture will rate VERY highly.
Doesn’t that description disqualify Lion from S-tier though? He very much wantonly eradicated xenos species and humans while taking the heaviest casualties in the great crusade. And then his own planet rebelled against him. And Guilliman banished him for using some very questionable strategies to hunt for Curze. Then he almost got killed by accepting mano-a-mano with Curze (saved by Corswain) and the Luther (took some 10k years to recover).
“For every campaign we see to be a disaster”. Alpharius operated the Ghost Legion hidden across the Imperium for two centuries - the whole point of the way of warfare he taught his Legion to use is to be skilled enough at influencing events in order for the enemy to collapse without a major military attack. But when Alpharius does lead a campaign that is a direct military attack the enemy is ripped apart with ease. You can’t say the Lion is S tier when his primary way of warfare reduces planets to ash and then say Alpharius isn’t because he also left planets in ruins 🤦🏻♀️
@@Azikarak Alpharius would go to a world, blow up their water, power grid, food supplies, and kill all of their government officials, accept the surrender and leave without leaving behind a garrison. Alpharius doesn't conquer, he showboats and does things just to say he could do them. Look at Paramar, he's told to take it for Horus, and does exactly that, takes the planet, and then leaves with zero garrison. The Lion, to hear you tell it, goes to every world and says "Dreadwing, go". Why does he have 6 wings that range in tactics if he just leaves everything a ruin? He is even shown in Russ's Primarch novel to conquer the worlds swiftly and even captures enemy ships, rather than just blowing them up. Then you have his reconquest of Thramas and Ultramar, followed by the burning of the traitor homeworlds in order to draw off assets. Alpharius didn't come near to achieving that level of destruction, and his "plans within plans, Alpharius could be anyone" is cringe and tired as a meme.
Corax stats and rules in 2.0 do not reflect how he was portrayed in the lore. Meanwhile, Dorn should have WS 2 to reflect his sword skill outside of Mary Sue moments (i.e. completely none).
cant agree with perturabo placing, i think he carried about 50% or more of the heresy on his back and basically carried all of the siege of terra on his back. not to mention him clapping dorn and the imperial fists cheeks at the iron cage. idk i think his wins speak for themselves but yes he is a spiteful prick, but dorn is also a brick so idk. the only time the imperial fists had one up on perty and his gang was when dorn wasnt even present but that felt weird and out of place i think think that was just inconsistent writing cus of the million different authors
Hot take: Lorgar achieves almost every personal objective, save for succeeding Horus. He’s deserving of A tier, strong statesman, string tactician, strong (but not exceptional) strategist. His downfall is he’s fighting a separate war to Horus with differing primary objectives. I rate Perty as A also, he has issues cooperating with others, but is largely non-problematic when put aside several of the harder to utilize primarchs. Put him in charge of Mortarion+Curze+Angron, and he’ll achieve every primary objective on schedule, almost regardless of obstacles. He has failings with his methodology but his intelligence and logistical mind typically makes up for it when it matters.
@@DrippyWaffler It's a meme that he largely carries the traitor team on his back in the leadup to the siege, and the early parts of the siege of terra. He's a brutal commander, but that nature gets somewhat overstated compared to other legions. He's shown to be very good at holding and carrying a wide offensive on a scale that would make other primarchs shudder to think of. In Slaves to Darkness the Iron Warriors and Perturabo hold back the DA/BA/Ultras with basically no functional supply line, and are the only thing giving the traitors time to even reach Terra.
@@reidzalewski4563 it's the truth as writen in the books, not a meme. Now if you want to go full luetin and say theres no such thing as canon in 40k , then that's your prerogative
@@marceloantunes998 You did not look at the context of the statement at all, did you? I said it's a meme, I in no way implied that it was untrue. If you bothered to read the rest of the comment you might have realized that I was stating the exact opposite?
On a good day he stood up and survived and delayed multiple legions like Corvus, easily high C tactically… but from a strategic point of view, and his growing madness, it’s surprising he did anything at all himself
Roboute Guilliman looks like Greg Davies on that picture for some reason. Also regarding Sanguinius, I think the role of personality in a general, especially on the scale of the Heresy, is underrated - out of all the legions dropped into a trap by Horus, the Blood Angels performed the best in surviving it - while the shock of being attacked by supposedly loyalist allies took the shattered legions completely off-guard, The Blood Angels were literally assaulted by daemonic forces they'd never even encountered before. Despite this it was effectively the first outright defeat for Horus. The other thing to consider is the low starting point at which his legion came to him in comparison to other legions - While the First Legion were a hand-picked, highly trained, experienced and organised force when The Lion took over the reins, the Revenant Legion were basically outcasts amongst their fellow astartes - cannibal berserkers taken from whatever mutated scraps of humanity were available. By the time of the Heresy they were such a force to be reckoned with that Horus had them up there with the aforementioned Dark Angels as one of the few legions he feared to take on in an outright assault - and that is singularly down to Sanguinius.
I must contest Macca - Guilliman doesn't have a massive ego. He has pride, but doesn’t let it interfere with how he operates. Many of his brothers' own egos was Guilliman's problem - they assumed he was acting out of spite, or ego, or arrogance, but that's because they were so twisted themselves. I do otherwise think you're right on his tier.
Despite all the flak Guilliman gets (especially from pre-5th ed 40k players) he's actually demonstrated to have been one of the most self-aware and wisest of the Primarchs. Like that scene where he gets annoyed at the Dark Angels perfect parade formation and after some gentle ribbing from his mother, just sort of laughs it off and realizes that he's not annoyed as much as he is a bit jealous. Most of the brothers who he had genuine problems with were the shithead ones like Angron or Mortarion. He got along with even some of the more caustic but well meaning ones like Russ or Manus. You are also right about many of his brothers basically projecting onto him. Guilliman did have his pride, but he was the leader of the Legion with the single greatest number of compliances, the Legion that tended to leave the most prosperous worlds in its wake, and the one with the most successful fiefdom in the whole Imperium. Horus when he was dying actually revealed that he was more insecure about Guilliman's capabilities than those of anyone other than Sanguinius.
@@DeusExMachina10001 Being basically the only one raised in a more or less normal environment with an actual loving family goes a long way in forming character
I’m going to go ahead and contest the point on Alpharius for a bit. We can pin this on my personal bias as an Alpha Legion player but placing him that low on the ladder seems extremely unfair to the guy. He is clearly capable of conducting a successful campaign and the fact he was able to establish his own supply and logistics network, all under the noses of his brother Primarchs is commendable. Furthermore, his Legion’s purpose wasn’t to be the conquerors. He never set out to be as such. His Legion performs subversion and disruption, and in that, it’s unquestionable that they performed their task. The fact they managed to best the Raven Guard and sabotage their operations should be a testament to their competence. Personally, I’d place him in at least lower B tier. His showboating and overly elaborate plans are certainly flaws on a strategic level, and the fact no one trusts him is certainly a personality flaw. But as a general commanding an army, he is definitely not a person I want to be fighting against.
I’ll also add that the primary reason behind the self-sabotaging done within and by the Alpha Legion could easily be pinned squarely on the fact that Alpharius and Omegon disagreed on whose side to take during the Horus Heresy.
In terms of legion bodycounts, Horus still wins it considering his strategies all but wiped out IH, RG, Sallies, SW and TS and the Sons of Horus are among the most numerous legions at the end of the Heresy with some of the least expenditure in resources.
I highly doubt the Sons of Horus having any significant numbers by the end of the heresy, right off the bat they lose a tone of guys in the isstvan III massacre, they take more losses fighting the survivors, then there iss isstvan V casualties they take before the second wave arrives, id argue they was at half strength before they even left the isstvan system
One gripe: the goal of each primarch and how well they execute that should be one of the measuring tools for the quality of the general. Konrad was fighting a pinning war that kept roboute and lion at bay. Using terror to destabilize ultramar. Using bombs and traps and double layered traps to disorient and turn the lion and roboute against eachother. As a delay tactic I do not see anyone better than the night lords at disrupting ultramars efficiency except maybe the word bearers. (Whose goal is also fear and agony)
In the "War is politics by other means" sense, yeah Konrad absolutely did a phenomenal job pinning 3 very powerful legions down with basically a reinforced legion.
Macca kind of forgot about how Curze massacred 10% of a planet, took it earlier than Guilliman had calculated and reasoned that with his actions the critical infrastructure remained operational and was now under imperial control.
@@TheOuterCircle yes in 40k scale, Iraqis just couldn't appreciate FREEDOM! that US brought to them against their will. Fucking ingrates. But if planetary happiness post invasion is a factor then how happy are planets post-Mortarion, -Russ, -Perturabo?
@The Outer Circle the soldiers are not always the best builders. I have to deal with former military builders all the time in my hvac job. They are some of our best service guys, but they aren't good in general construction. They are the worst tenors and the laziest flex runners. (This is a Personal experience yours may differ.) I would prefer people who dedicate their lives not to warfare who may have obliterated my brother who lives 2 blocks away to do the rebuilding. I'd prefer the humans of a more focused persuasion be bussed in to offer the humanitarian aid.
I won't disagree that the Lion was one of the best tacticians amongst the Primarchs, and I'd even put him in the S tier. But he was not nearly as good at big picture strategy as he was at fighting individual battles. He got completely played by Horus and Curze with regard to the Thramas Crusade. Horus's only goal in that campaign was to waste the Lion's time, and Curze managed to keep him occupied for 2 years despite the Dark Angels having a far more powerful fleet and Dark Age tech. The Lion only managed to win when he did because of an actual plot device that Curze knew nothing about, and that was nearly a year after Curze completely gave the game away by literally telling the Lion exactly what he was doing and why. Mr. El Jonson was great at winning battles, but he had a demonstrable tendency to miss the forest for the trees.
Sensei Vince, thank you so much for being the human you are and keep up the wonderful teachings you give away for free. I agree with everything said 100%. You’re a godsend for me. 🙌🏼🌞❤️
18:33 There is the potato brain moment for Dorn when he attack Kurze because Fulgrim said he was having visions of the imperium falling apart and nearly dies because Kurze scithzes out on him, he also decideds he won't nuke mars because its too valuable but then is ok with sending a infiltration force to basically make the planet uninhabitable to even the mechanicum that just sounds like an exterminatus with extra steps and a greater chance of not actually working
Everything Dorn does outside his fanboy moments is "potato brain". Original Dorn was an obstinate and stubborn derp. Think about it. In little league soccer, where are the weakest and least skilled players? On defense. What did Big E assign Dorn to do? Defense.
Dorn didn't attack Konrad. Konrad confided in Fulgrim, who told Dorn, and Dorn just straight up bluntly confronted Curze, who attacked him out of feeling vulnerable. After that he was imprisoned and then broke out, killed a bunch of Imperial Fists and Emperors Children, returned to his ships and then went and blew up Nostramo.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 I've always suspected the reason why Perturabo was so fucking pissy with Dorn is because the time when Dorn says his walls would beat Perturabo's attackers, is the one time he lied out of spite. All siege specialists know that the besieged are generally fighting not to lose, while the attackers are fighting to win. The key to a siege is which side has the most time, resources and willpower. And in a galactic scale conflict, defenders are always going to lose to an enemy who can literally bring in resources off planet. This is why in the siege of terra books they've had to create the "The Ultramarines are coming" plot contrivance. Realistically, there is 0 chance Dorn could ever defend Terra on the ground. Realistically, he needed to take the fight into the void and try and destroy the traitors long before they reach the Sol System. Once they made planetfall, it was basically game over.
@@jamesespinosa690 - Good points. Dorn, being the master of inaction that he is (and only good at base camping) would never proactively engage the enemy in any effective way, as he lacks the strategic sense and creativity to overcome foes on equal footing (excluding the awful retcons in saying this, of course). Perturabo also got disgusted with the other traitors and withdrew from the Siege. It would have over before the Ultramarines arrived had he stayed, as Dorn has no ideas except "defend more!".
I understand it's your opinion Macca but I have to say I think you're wrong with Horus, well his dueling ability really. Just because the Lion can beat Russ and Russ can beat Horus it doesn't mean that the Lion can beat Horus. Styles make fights, you see it all the time in real life and I think that's the case here
It’s such a tragedy to see Angron as he is. You can see that built in empathy and natural connection he feels to individuals but the corruption of the nails just sees him turn into a lost guard dog seeking someone to defend as an excuse to fight.
I think it’s really telling how he loved his original slave army, inspiring loyalty amongst those strong enough to earn his respect and choosing to die as one of them rather then leave with Big E. I honestly think had he never had the nails he could have been similar to Sanginius
Agreed. The Tragedy of the butchers nails always leads me to make a special category off to the side for Angry Ron when tiering and comparing the Primarchs. He's just too broken.
Can’t agree with your insane take on horus. You are only talking about Horus during his chaos corruption. His brain was 100% mush from chaos but he still won basically every engagement he was in and they destroyed like half of the galaxy in under a decade, 3 legions, hundreds of world under chaos complaince, as well as convincing 7 of the other legions to betray the emperor in a few days/weeks (lorgar not counted obviously), and he basically killed the emperor. For 200 years Horus was a phenomenal general and had the highest compliance/conquest rate out of all the legions. Not to mention he was chosen as warmaster for his tactical ability, as time went on he obviously changed. Not everyone shares my opinion but your other points are valid. Although I think Konrad should be higher, terror tactics had an insanely fast compliance rate.
Macca quite literally stipulated at the start of the video, if you make a compiant world that is eager to betray you the moment your gone; you haven't done a very good compliance and therefore it's not a good job. Konrad Kurze couldn't even keep his home planet compliant through fear, hence why he blew it the fuck to pieces.
Boy, do I have good news for you, because I'm just now reading this comment and I basically made a video which is tailor made to respond, so that's neat!
Double post so everyone forgive me, but Macca doesn't seem to have Curze very well understood at all. Before he completely lost his mind, his Legion actually had one of the lowest kill counts out of all of them despite having a mid-tier conquest record. His whole schtick was to murder a few people so utterly horrifically that the bulk of a population would surrender without further bloodshed. He even states this outright at one point. Legions like the Space Wolves, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, and especially Dark Angels had kill counts that numbered into the hundreds of billions at the very least. It's even a matter of canon that the Dark Angels straight up Exterminatused far more planets than they brought into compliance, and they had the second greatest military compliance record of the Legions. It was only after he went totally batty that he just started butchering people with no purpose. Before that, he was actually incredibly effective. His Legion's whole purpose was to be a deterrent ; the Night Lords were the stick that you got hit with if you didn't accept the carrot. He won many battles on pure reputation before any fighting even needed to occur. On top of that, not only did Curze not get curbstomped by the Lion until after the Lion got his magic plot engine, but he actually won in terms of achieving the Traitors' strategic goals. He didn't "decide" to pick a fight with the Lion; he was sent by Horus to the Eastern Fringes specifically to keep the Lion away from Terra. That's exactly what he did, and it's all he was ever hoping to do. He even Told the Lion as much during their first fight. He also managed to hold the Dark Angels, who are probably the single most powerful Astartes Legion in terms of arms, ships, and tech, at bay for 2 years with an inferior force and no Dark Age Tech. So putting him in E when the Lion is in S doesn't even make sense; either he's a lot better than Macca thinks or the Lion is a lot worse.
That may be so but how stable would those worlds be? Nostramo itself is proof that ruling through fear and terror only works as long as you are constantly vigilant and once you are gone the fearful but hateful subject start getting ideas.
@@operkoi8954 It depends on the world, and on the people. The only two Legions that left genuinely stable worlds behind them as a matter of procedure were the Imperial Fists and particularly, the Ultramarines. Most other Legions, but particularly the Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Space Wolves, and especially Dark Angels left absolute charnel houses in their wake. It's a big part of the reason why so many planets joined Horus during the HH; a planet that had been subject to the attention of a Legion like the Dark Angels or Death Guard tended to be an irradiated hellscape with no ability to pay the Imperial Tithe. So they just said "fuck it" when Horus offered them a way out. You may remember when the Lion completely exterminated the entire Illyrium population on Macragge with radiological weapons? That was not an aberration; wiping whole civilizations off the galactic map was what many of the Legions did as a matter of course, and it's what they were designed to do. The Emperor was utterly brutal in his subjugation of the galaxy because he didn't think he had the time to be anything else. He thought that if he didn't take over as quickly as possible, ban all religion, and get humanity into the Webway to safely evolve into a species that could handle the Warp, then Chaos would win. Curze didn't leave behind populations that were any more kindly inclined toward the Imperium than most of his brothers, but when he took a planet, the vast majority of its people, resources, infrastructure and industry were left intact. After he got through with that one city where everyone was left flayed alive hanging from buildings or what not, everyone else often just went "Nope" and surrendered. After which the Administratum could come in and clean up the significantly less awful mess than that which a Legion like the World Eaters would have left behind. That also tended to make recidivism less likely. Everyone would remember what could happen to them if they stepped out of line but because their world was still intact, they weren't so desperate as to need a way out. Of course, if the situation called for it, the Night Lords would go just as scorched earth as the Death Guard but their ethos and reputation often prevented that from becoming necessary. The problem was that as Curze's visions got worse and worse and his mind and Legion slipped further into full on psycho territory, the Night Lords gave up their original ethos. After Curze destroyed Nostramo (a decision in which he was actually hoping to receive pushback from his Legion for), he quit trying to keep his Night Haunter persona at bay and went full-on Terrifier. After all, if humanity was unworthy garbage and his premonitions about 40k coming to pass were true, what was the point? Edit-run on cleanup.
@@DeusExMachina10001 I’d argue the word bearers used the build back better approach with the caveat that better meant joining the traitors once the heresy starts post monarchia. And there is one big advantage to the kill’em all approach of those legions you mentioned. Corpses don’t get up and start shooting you once you inevitably get distracted. Sure the infrastructure and population loss would sting compared to an ultramarines style societal restructuring but a clean slate populated by loyal colonists or nearly extinct local population made a minority by loyal colonists that would be able to police the resentful elements for you would be more stable and loyal in the long run then a powder keg of resentment and suspicion left by the likes of Cruze or Alpharius. Curze would have been far more effective if he limited his cruelty strictly to tyrants and their supporters while uplifting an oppressed underclass when he was actually crusading and not being used as the Gestapo.
@@DeusExMachina10001 it wasn’t just the fists and ultras that left stable worlds. Raven guard were noted for leaving stable intact worlds, with it being stated that istaven 3 revolting being unusual as they’d been brought under by the ravens. Word bearers were on the level of ultras in terms of post conquest support, if not higher, but because of their religious nature that was a no go. Sons of Horus were renowned for crushing opposition quickly with minimal collateral via surgical strikes. Hell, arguably night lords managed a fair few by traumatising them so bad they wouldn’t dare rebel, sometimes not even needing to set foot on a planet because they’d seen what happened to their neighbours and didn’t want that.
Kinda surprised Perturabo was not A tier. He is acclaimed for the strongest back out of all the primarchs due to his hard carrying. But I do understand the argument for top of B.
Honestly he should be S tier. His got the absolute toughest campaigns and ground out the difficult wins time and time again. Sure he racked up a casualty list but "I cannot spare this man, he fights". Winners win, it's what they do and he won, until Horus tagged him out and THAT ended well for him didn't it?
@@dzelman444The absolute toughest campaigns? You mean the Rangdan xenocides? You know, the one that shattered 2 other legions before the dark angels were sent to end it? The one that took the dark angels from being the most prosperous numbered above even the ultramarines Legion to sub 150,000. Perturabo and his legion would have ground themselves into rust in that campaign, If he had been sent. And the lion would have still been sent in to finish it.
@@dzelman444 do not think he should be S easy A though. his logistical ability to keep his legion at decent size and well equipped in the face of the amount of personal and equipment loss that they regularly faced is awe inspiring He is not the strategic web weaver that guillaman or the lion are nor does he have the tactical finece of hours or sangunius. But if you have a battle or campaign that is going to be an awful bloody grindy mess peterabo and maby dorn is your go to and peterabo does not have Dorn's rigidity. Peterabo's only real weakness lies in his inability to inspire he can plan, command, organize, and administer but he does not inspire thos under his command.
I mean, I’m prepared to admit the Khan doesn’t actually DO any big-picture strategy, but I don’t know if we’ve seen him be BAD at it, either; if anything, I think his interactions with Russ prove he’s capable of taking a step back and being clear-eyed about things. I mean, he was ultimately strategically incorrect not to aid him, but HE didn’t know that, and primarchs who didn’t take that kind of precaution usually had their legions shattered.
True. Love magnus. Too bad 90% of his plans end up as stardust. Prospero burned to ash. His men burned to ash. His spine is powder. The grey knights invading his dusty home. Magnus really does have it hard. It's like he has mitus touch for dust.
I super enjoyed this! Very well reasoned and thought out. I only have one critique, what about Omegon? I think it could be argued that he was the 'order' to Alpha's 'chaos'. Thoughts?
As the other person said, that’s the point. They’re not run by particularly competent generals, especially in these times, and they’ll often sabotage their own long term efforts in order to keep the crisis going (looking at giving equipment and weaponry to the very terrorists they’d later have to fight, just to destabilize a neighbouring government to put in a leader they liked more, which unfortunately happened). In our situation, war is a protracted racket and a financial decision far too often. It’s a bit bleak and stupid, but hey, the comfortable ones up in the safety won’t have to deal with any of the discomfort they leave in their wake, so why is leaving a stable country worth the extra effort and money?
As a sons of Horus player and decent reader of the Horus Heresy series I strongly agree with the rating Horus is given. I think often being the warmaster its assumed he will make smart tactical choices but truthfully he is the warmaster because he has the most ambition and charisma of the primarchs. He has had many victories including the capture of lunar(the moon) and Molech. But even in Molech it was very very costly and as the Warmasters forces he had the greater force. Often times i felt there was some obvious choice or strike he could have made but didn't' that would be less costly. The other issue is that the writers are not themselves brilliant tacticians. You can be a great writer and present good dialogue and story but grand military tactics can be hard to write in if you dont actually know military theory and I think that is one issue the writers themselves struggle with. Its also hard to present and provide extensive detail on how a battle field looks or how a battle is going. I play as the sons of horus and do love fielding him on tabletop when I can. An irony about that is when I got into 30k none of my friends at my hobby shop went SOH, so liking Horus a lot I decided to build that army. Now it seems SOH are very popular.
@@WilhelmScreamer Testify! I read a book years ago on some of the military engagements at the beginning of the Korean war, good Lord there was 80% dialogue on logistics and support and a great deal of the politics to get said logistical support. Obviously it's amazingly important but not exciting reading.
I would say that with the lion the big test he fails is choosing his subordinates. The way first legion was structured with all the brotherhoods the lion needed to have people he could trust and rely on in senior leadership. Luther was an incredibly poor choice to keep as a senior commander without oversight and the first legion paid the price for lions lack of social intelligence. I would also point out while he was admired by his brothers his failure to cooperate led to his admonishment by sanguinius and guilliman, a general has to be a form of politician not just a tactical genius
Hey Macca, solid list, love Corax and Dorn getting some praise. Question, the information you base this on, is it from the Heresy novels, from the Black Books or just being in the hobby forever? Just curious where your data is collected from
Do you think legion organisation and recruitment are worthy considerations for this list? It's a little tough if you're just dealing with the Horus Heresy, where it becomes a little more up in the air, and it's probably not gonna change much - maybe bumps Pert, Lorgar, Guilliman, and maybe Corax up a bit relative to others (maybe Alpharius too, if we stretch the notion of organisation).
Right! Stupid Dorn and Imperial Fist fanboy writing is the WORST part of Black Library. I want Dorn to succumb to Chaos - only way to salvage his awful character progression.
In all honesty one of the Emperor's biggest mistakes was not bringing Magnus with him post Ulanor, that and not finding a way to get Dorn and Perturabo to get along cause damn would they have been a good duo if Perturabo's discontent and hatred for Dorn hadn't been left to fester
Fact: It is really hard for anybody not to hate Dorn. I've never met the guy, and I hate his guts. Maybe the Emperor knew that no one could like an uncharismatic boring obstinate dork.
PERTURABO is S tier. He never lost a fight. One can argue he lost the fight against the imperial fists in space. But that was stroking the dick of alexis pollux. He Beats angron in an 1v1 fight. He can replenish his losses in an extremely short amount of time. And singel handedly held the Line against guilliman and hus forces. He carried the heresy, he orchestrated the siege of terra and one can argue that the only reason they lost is because PERTURABO called quits. Furthermore he Literally siege’d chaos. When fulgrim tried to sacrifice him, he sieged chaos from him and ultimately beat fulgrim in angel exterminatus. He has never lost a fight against another primearch.
I think I remember that Horus was unhappy with the brothers that were on his side because he wanted people like Sanguinius or Ferrus Manus but instead got Angron and Konrad who weren’t very great at tactics and were more bloodthirsty maniacs. Basically Horus felt that he was given the bottom of the barrel ones that nobody liked.
Not sure if you’re aware but the Blood Ravens chapter is heavily implied to be a Thousand So a successor chapter which is wild to me but makes so much sense at the same time
@@Wizley15 that's new to me but now I think about it, kinda works. Ive always had this silly idea of loyalist night lords, still looney buggers. Just going down that "criminal finds god trope" via emperor bothering. Loyalist traitors are fun
Well, as Sanguinius fanboy, I should note - that Perturabo and Horus is more capable strategist than Sanguinius. Sanguinius lost to Horus in Beta Harmone campaign. And admits that Horus overplayed him
Glad I started here, as this content tells me all I need to know about the content producer; they don't know their own subject matter. - Lion get's graded on his prowess as a warrior when the whole premise is "as Generals". BUT, then goes on to hedge that he could have been even more potent if only he'd not been sucker punched by Leman and Konrad Curze. He ends the fight with the former with a sucker punch and begins the latter by stabbing Konrad in the stomach in the middle of a parlay. TBH, he's got plenty of selling points, we're just going to skip them apparently and misrepresent other events instead. More in the Konrad section. - Dorn was caged by his own rigidity. His direct involvement leads to Phall being a loss for his Legion, rather than the victory it was trending towards. While this speaks to the very reason why he was made Praetorian of Terra, if he'd been willing to truly lead the forces of the Imperium rather than act as a macro-scale Valdor, he might have pitched for the abandonment of Terra or use of it as a trap. Preservation of Legio Titanicus forces for use on other battlefields. To hell with Emp's WebWay project, let Terra fall and the Traitors win nothing. Relocate the Emperor with a preserved fleet and effectively relocate the Astronomicon. Do you know what's further away from Istvaan than Terra? Everything below Terra on the map. Make Horus trudge further and bleed him out. - Konrad... I wouldn't put him in the upper echelons either, but what a massive overreach to flatly call him an idiot. He is the one who is sucker-punched by The Lion, not the other way around. The Dark Angels are also not at full strength either (not all together in one place - only 80K~ for the Thramas Crusade). While Konrad has "homefield" advantage, by virtue of being on-site first, and a slight edge in numbers, he is going up against what is nominally considered a superior Primarch and Legion (w/ a much better arsenal and fleet to boot). That said, he still ties up the Lion for several years until The Lion makes a "devil's bargain" with Tchulcha or whatever it's called. Oh yeah, Konrad is also strangling the Lion even after the latter stabbed him in the stomach to kick off their fight. The Lion only survives those events due to Corswain stabbing Konrad in the spine with his sword (see "Savage Weapons"). - Ferrus Manus' reputation for being wrathful is well known, but please do tell, how that had any impact on his death? He has orders to deploy to Istvaan, which he obeys. In what scenario do you see him leaving that planet alive absent the NL, AL, WB, and IW not committing an act of betrayal? Is he a perpetual like Vulkan? Can he teleport into the shadows like Corax? Oh, no to both... Tier is fine, the reasoning is just overused. Also Dorn didn't praise his men either and in effect, sent the Shattered Legions to their death. Maybe if he was more attentive he'd have better vetted the forces sent in the second wave. Alas, Dorn did readily issue order for/ accept the roll call of the NL even after their prior crimes against the Imperium. - Roboute - accuses him of refusing to change. What is the thing that he and his Legion most known for... constantly adapting. - Horus - Agree that he isn't a standout tactician (among his kin anyway), and while his reputation and that of his Legion is carved off of the backs of others (comes easy when you always book yourselves for the victory assault), you overly downplay his macro-scale strategic vision. He is running a galactic-scale war, all the while managing the "quickly" declining psyches and egos of both his fellow traitor primarchs and so many other rogue forces that don't necessarily "buy-in" to his vision. His victory at Beta-Garmon is masterful. - Lorgar's conversions of planets has nothing to do with his generalship. Forcing a population into adoption of religious and cultural practices is almost always bloody. Furthermore, for every triumph there is going to be an example of his role as an iconoclast. Calth also creates the Ruinstorm, but Kor Phaeron bungles a chance to kill RB. - Vulkan is simultaneously both too compassionate and too masochistic to be a good general. - Corax is great when he's focused (guess that goes for most primarchs though eh), but he also get's tunnel vision on vendettas that cause him to put himself out of the picture of "best place for him to be". Still, he and the Khan seem to do a lot when working against superior forces; they play better from behind. You speak of Istvaan III as a success story, seriously? Erebus didn't corrupt the planet. Corax failed to notice and remove the chaos cults on the planet (Choral City and the singers ring a bell?). Regarding his escape from Istvaan V, Ferrus was inside the Traitor lines when the trap was sprung and Vulkan did withdraw but was nuked by the Iron Warriors. Corax tried to stay behind, failed to kill Lorgar, then fled successfully because A) jump pack and B) his shadow-hopping shenanigans are kind of a big deal. What is the source of your claim for the RG to have killed more traitors than causalities sustained during the Heresy? - Alpharius - I don't know his plan and assume all worlds are the same (human population that Big E intends to preserve), so C. Sounds good. Enjoy your view, I wish I had.
Brother this was perfect and summed it up masterfully. I feel like this video was nothing more than who do I like vs who do I not like. Which is fine, but goes directly against the grading criteria of “generalship.” I’m starting to think this guy is a bit much of a complainer who learned his lore from memes.
I think one thing left out of this tier list is what happened to their legions after the Heresy. The Lion with all his might and dominance of warfare, his legion did not follow in its footsteps. Secretive, paranoid, and down right traitorous. I know certain legions would give their primarchs a worse grade, but a good general has even better subordinates.
How is it controversial to put g-man in S teir, the man is BUILT for the big picture. A general is meant for large scale strategic thinking and g-man is objectively the best at that. Thats his magic super power, his ability to strategize. He has ego sure, but unlike the other ego primarchs he never lets it blind him. You talk about stagnant battle plans but his legion is extremely adaptive, id argue the most. Cailth showed that when the legion quickly adapted to the situation and the different warfare. His biggest flaw, which has literally caused his own death on two occasions, is he has very human rage. When someone fucks with him he wants to punch that person for being a fucker. Even if they are demon primarchs
In terms of generalship, Sanguinius gets shafted because we're told he is one the best and a rival to Horus, but we never actually see any of that: writers always focus on the personal traits and moments. The writers are always too interested in the personal stuff to actually *show* us his command talents...and when they do, it's the awkward and rushed Beta Garmon stuff. Likewise, Rogal Dorn was a fantastic offensive commander: the Imperial Fists, under his command, had the highest tally of systems brought into the Imperium second only to the Luna Wolves/SoH under Horus himself. But every depiction of him wants to focus on the defensive prowess to the point of occluding his other attributes. Khan deserves to be higher, IMO, because the entire story of the White Scars is how the Imperium (and we the audience) always stereotype and pigeonhole them when in fact we are the ignorant ones. And despite that, perhaps because of it, Khan performs superbly. He's also a case of "know thyself." Perhaps better than anyone else he knows what and his troops are good at and finds ways to create and exploit situations for his guys to excel in, EVEN when trapped. That's very impressive, even if it's not as flashy as galatic-scale chess-playing like Dorn and Perturabo. I think Perturabo is better than Dorn. He is unparalleled when it comes to the "calculus" of war and especially that all-important-yet-never-appreciated thing called logistics. And Dorn *knows* Perty is better...which is what makes Dorn better because he can recognize and compensate for his own flaws while Perturabo is such a seething man-child he can't admit let alone adapt to his own flaws. And I say that as someone who kinda likes Pert.
I will 100% agree with the AL RG comparison When the AL are not showboating they work very much like the RG and that's how I play only with that AL flare of using more of training advising and augmenting local forces so while I play AL I use solar or guard with an AL attachment which suits me more fluff wise and also leaves more of the showboating out of the legion.
30:09 it’s explicitly stated in one of the best books of the heresy (Know No Fear) that Guilliman, of ALL his brothers had the least to prove. 500 worlds, entire interstellar empire (Ultramar) before he was even reunited with the imperium and his legion. And that said he has a much more practical, phlegmatic, just-get-it done approach than many. Hell, he founded a second imperium and placed somebody other than himself at its head. Sure he did this for practical and political reasons, but that’s precisely the point. An egomaniac would not have made such a cool-headed choice. In a sense he’s the *opposite* of Fulgrim ego-wise, who was all about over-compensating (Fulgrim having been saddled with a dramatically downsized legion and a proletarian upbringing.) Guilliman is not the most interesting primarch and I’m not trying to fanboy. But for such an otherwise insightful commentary, I’m surprised at how badly you get the lore wrong when it comes to the 13th.
I would make a petition Ferrus Manus to be bumped up to 'A' tier and here is why: Ferrus Manus handled Istvaan V perfectly and I bring a different perspective to back up my statement. So Ferrus has his thing with Fulgrim, then he finds out that 4 legions betrayed the Emperor at Istvaan III by treachery via viral bombing. He takes what he needs down to Istvaan V while the Salamanders and Raven Guard land in Legion strength. The Urghal depression is a very small area. Similar to how the battle of Iwo Jima played out, the Japanese waited for Americans to clog the beach with supplies and men before initiating their attack to devastating effect. So Ferrus Manus knows that Horus is a clever commander and that he's willing to use viral weapons to win. So why would Horus not use viral weapons again? Or some other treachery? Why would he back himself into a corner with no chance of victory? He wouldn't. So maybe Ferrus considered his options. Maybe he considered that the other legions reinforcing him could have doubtful loyalties, after all the Night Lords for some reason would be present and Horus had shown that even the most loyal legions could turn. But let's say he didn't go as far as predict other legions turning against him, what would have happened if Horus just decided to wait for the loyalists to regroup, like the Salamanders and Raven Guard tried to do and then initiate a viral bombardment? They didn't have adequate protection, they were all in a small place, it could have easily been a failed loyalist assault, resulting in the destruction of 7 legions. So with all that in mind, what's the reasonable thing to do? Well the reasonable thing to do would be to NOT take down almost your entire Legion, the wise thing to do would be to press the assault and not let off on the traitors, to get in their defenses, destroying ground to orbit weapons and ways for the traitors to shoot down gunships and landers. The traitors could not use viral bombardment if the engagement range was reduced to 0. So Ferrus went down to a battle he fully knew he was going to die in, even if he managed to kill Fulgrim, he was probably going to die either way and he was right, Vulkan died too, he just has magic and the only reason Corax lived was because he had the ability to become invisible. But what else happened after Istvaan V? The shattered legions continued to fight and they ONLY were able to fight because the majority of those escaping Istvaan V were escaping on Iron Hands gunships and to Iron Hands ships, with the remnants of the Iron Hands forming the core of the shattered legions resistance efforts. So that's my explanation of Ferrus Manus's secret genius. He preserved most of his Legion, he was wise to continue fighting the known traitors at the time and he made sure there would be a post Istvaan V resistance effort. He would have died regardless of whether or not he had his Legion entirely down there with him or if he turned back to the "regroup" with the other 4 secretly traitor legions
Most of the iron hands legion survived because they weren’t at istavan. They weren’t there because the fleet was crippled during his meet up with Fulgrim. It wasn’t a strategic choice, it was something forced on him. The idea of going hard and not letting up holds merit until you remember they didn’t have to go planet side. There was no traitor fleet present and the planet didn’t have the anti ship weapons to threaten his fleet. They could have easily sat there and waited for their reinforcements (as suggested by Croax and I believe Vulcan) and taken it from there. And if you are worried about traitors coming in from behind like you suggest, then the smarter thing would be to just leave and save your forces then to throw your force at a superior sized entrenched force and wait for another superior sized force to hit you in the rear given there’s no way you’d do more damage then your take (as seen by the dropsite casualties on both sides, traitors took way less damage then the loyalists). The whole thing was very badly lead by Ferrus. Which is a shame as it makes him seem kinda stupid. I think it’s probably due to it being included initially as a smaller general idea that wasn’t given much thought by the writers and when they came to actually fill out the details of what happened they realised they’d accidentally written themselves into a corner and the only way out was to make Ferrus do something foolish.
Cool video, my fav legions are night lords and world eaters. I like the messed up characters and I find it funny that they aren’t very good at doing their job.
Dorn is not above Pertuabo, he’s never managed to counter him, Pertuabo maybe cruel and emotional but he’s a much better strategist than Dorn even after the Iron Cage, also Pertuabo carried the Heresy, if not for him Horus would’ve never reached Terra.
If it's one thing I've learned about The Lion recently, it's that the Heresy did wonders for his personality flaws. He started out very rough, but as he saw his brothers fall into utter depravity, he checked his own worst qualities in response. By the time he reawakens, he very much has the measure of what his arrogance and callousness could cost the people around him.
The Night Lords had one of the best records during the Horus Heresy, often pacifying worlds faster than Guilliman expected possible. He should be much higher on the list.
I dont think Ferris should be above fulgrim. In the book fulgrim he needed Fulgrim's help to take out the xenos allied humans after failing to deal with them for months. During Istvan he also charged wrecklessly ahead consumed by anger allowing him and his legion to be cut off and he was allowed to be isolated and killed by Fulgrim
Agree with this list nearly completely. The Lion being S is spot on (best Primarch IMO). Also agreed with your points on Guilliman. Corax in S tier is 1000% spot on. He was one of the best tacticians and generals as you stated and he and the Raven Guard are by a country mile the most underrated Primarch and Legion. I slightly disagree on Rogal Dorn, and yes he made some tactical mistakes but being responsible for the entire defence of the Sol system and Terra basically solo should bump him up to S I feel. That being said his conduct after the Siege of Terra would drop him to C or lower....lol. Dark Angels and Raven Guard are my 1 and 2 in both 30k and 40k, just to show my bias....lol
I think you missed the point with Konrad, his goal was to destroy his own legion because they lost their honor. Hence he destroyed the primary recruiting source, the planet that purposely provided him with criminals and psychopaths for recruits, and purposely picked the fight with the Lion because he knew they could not win - less scum of the galaxy to deal with in the future. Remember Konrad killed his own when they went away from terror for victory's sake and to terror for the fun of it. If according to your standards, through terror Konrad's legion saved the most lives, won wars with minimal losses to his own forces, and left compliant populations in his wake, then he would actually be up there with the Lion on your general scale. Konrad, although nuttier than a fruitcake, had good strategic foresight in the case of destroying his own legion.
>Perturabo mid low tier of Fighters >says hes nothing compared to Angron and Fulgrim, one of which he beat down hard while he was a Deamon Primarch and Perty was dying Because Fulgrim used Perty's soul to ascend to Deamonhood, but Perty is driving by pure spite. Nah I will not stand for this Slander, Perty is High Tier. Dude had a better showing vs Deamon Angron than the Lion or Guilliman did *while he was dying*. Nowhwre near Sanguinius, but on par, or just a bit better than the Lion. Definitely a solid 3rd Place after Sanguinius and Horus, Followed by Konrad and Lion. Also as for Prospero, Leman spent hours in orbit sending down messages Magnus ignored, so he was aboht as polite and patient as he ever has been, and Magnus blew him off. So yeah 100% Magnus's fault
Jagahtai's point is effectively shown to be nonsensical in Path of Heaven in the fight between Lord Commander Primus Eidolon and Fist Captain Qin Xa, Eidolon isn't sure who Qin even is while Qin knows exactly who Eidolon is. And even with that Eidolon beats him and mortally wounds him.
That… doesn’t refute the point in the slightest, as it’s not even the same dynamic you’re trying to prove. His point isn’t that ANYONE or anything whose fighting style isn’t known is going to have a winning advantage, as a guardsman with a special, unseen boxing style isn’t going to be able to punch a marine to death. The point, quite correctly, was that Jaghatai is a horrifyingly good *and quick* duellist who could probably match or outmatch Fulgrim, AND that no one knows how he fights- which, in a blindingly-quick sword fight, even for a Primarch, is worrying. If you’re crossing swords with someone to the death, often fights are over very quickly due to a misread move- which includes, but is not limited to, having no precedent as to whether Jaghatai is *feinting* or *committing*. That, in a genuine sword fight, as any decent instructor better than me will tell you, is a very, very bad choice to have to make on the spot against an equally skilled combatant. So… in short of all that, the point isn’t ‘shown to be nonsense’, because you equate one thing to another without thinking about either. It’s not a big deal, regarding the subject matter itself, but if you go around calling peoples ideas nonsense or stupid before you stop to think about it, you’re not going to be taken very seriously when you DO have something valuable to put forward.
@@tomgeytenbeek2207 The Khans statement isn't I'd have an advantage because of he knows more of Fulgrim it's that he WOULD beat him because of it. I'm not comparing some mortal guardsman to a demigod marine I'm comparing the two heads of a legion squaring off with one knowing nothing of the other and the one knowing very much who the other is, in Eidolons case literally shouting it out as the Khan figuratively claimed Fulgrim did.
Yeah, that S tier ranking isn’t surprising in the slightest. C for Alpharius, however, was. Same for some of the others. Honestly I expected to see a wider spread as well but, I’m not gonna rag on it too much. The explanation was pretty well thought out.
I'd put alpharius as a high b. Yes he does show boat, but only to confuse his brothers and make them second guess him. He leaves conquered territory to build themselves back without a rigid structure, allowing them to evolve into the imperium using their own beliefs.
I am not sure showboating is the best way to say it. I would say alpharius is not even a general but more the head of a rogue intelligence agency. Granted the scale is all wrong but the approach to gaining compliance just seems to be coming from a entirely different point of view then any of his brothers.
Lower end of A? Sanguinus belongs at mid S level. No one else is running the gauntlet like he is. His team play and ability to mediate and hold together a team, certainly makes up for any perceived lack of strategic mastery. Similar to how The Lion is an S tier because of martial prowess, strategic mastery despite lack of trust and being a team player.
My only objection to Dorn's sword prowess is he's rigid but that's very in keeping with a lot of the old masters of the Italy and Germany. Everything was geometry. I don't doubt deamon fulgrim and alpharius were garbage but credit where it's due, he killed two enemy primarchs.
Dorn should be MUCH lower, because outside of Mary Sue moments added to the lore recently to help turn the lame Imperial Fists into boring poster boys, he did nothing.
Hm I’m not up to date with the HH books I think I’m around 35 in. I don’t rate Dorn too highly but I think you have to give him credit for organising the siege defence.
My only objection is that this listing underplays the ability to get people to actually listen. I'd tip Lion down to A and nudge Horus to the front of his tier (but not uptier) him. Otherwise I enjoy this much more focussed metric of comparison. Its fun.
well i dont think we should put Conrad Curze on E tier becuase of one little detail you missed: he HATES his own legion and he admitted it, unlike puerto rico who just calculates his way through victory. his legionis is what he hates the most and i wouldnt care for such a legion if they win or loose and niether did Curze. He just didnt get the legion that would suit HIM. so i think conrad is the dark unfortunate shadow of Corax. hehas the capabilty of being like Corax because lets face it if their sides were swapped they would do the same reversed roles if things turned otherwise. imo Conrad should be higher B tier
Curze was actaully really good at hit and run campaigns. He was able to entirely frustrate the Dark Angels and was only caught out because of bs ai archeotech that allowed the Lion to teleport his entire fleet on his head with no warning.
I like Russ. He's somewhat like Batman, he has a flamboyant, outrageous self centered, drinking, eating, good times had by all, outward personality, who doesn't ever really settle down. However, it's all an act.
I regretted not mentioning this when this came out so here it is. Not a complaint or criticism btw. I don't think it's fair or honest to compare (privileged) primarchs like Roboute who had an empire handed to him and had the easiest time except for maybe Magnus to the mentally/ emotionally crippled primarchs like Angron or Mortarion. Also having to take the crap writing into account to judge the primarchs is unfortunate. Obviously I like the video/ discussion (I'm rewatching it after all) I just felt it should be pointed out. Also the arguing and salt in the comments is pretty pointless considering this obviously isn't an objective list.
