I think this is actually one of the most level-headed approaches to a GOAT tier list; thinking of it from the point of view of if the game ended right now who would be considered the best of all time. I definitely agree that older players tender to get artificially bumped up higher on other lists because people don’t consider they were strong in a time of weaker competition etc (although obviously this is hard thing to compare). Think it would be cool to see you discuss with Chillin.
When you think of GOAT you can't say right now who's winning. Example Michael Jordan the here and now doesn't dismissed what previously people did. It's all his opinions with no facts if we go by facts let's look at records. Ken Isai M2k/dominated every smash game except ultimate Armada/ definitely better then hbox If you want facts look up tournament results and head to head matchups. GOAT imo means most dominate in his/her era
@@smoothviper9687 armada is definitely not definitely better than hbox. Hbox at this point has been best in the world for 3 years undisputed which is longer than armada.
haven't finished the video but i 100% agree with you on why the 1st gen aren't around. they didn't go into retirement, they got retired by the new kids :/
After melee is dead and people are looking back on the best players they will compare armadas reign with the inevitable reign of Zain. If you ask me, if Zain can be number one for only 2 years but during this era he could be the goat just because of how hard it is now
Maybe if Zain is hyper focused during that set while Armada is already a bit tired, similar to M2Ks summit win. On an average day Armada would mop the floor with Zain and this is no disrespect, we're talking about Armada after all
@@Killerbee_McTitties Nah man, Zain has gotten a lot better since their early sets. He's a beast against peach and fox, armada would struggle for sure.
@@sujetonormal3399 Disagree leffen clearly caught up and proved that peach almost just loses to fox, it got to a point where armada only play fox against him accept on FD.
I'm always happy to see Axe getting the love and respect he deserves. I feel totally ok with him being top 10 right now and I'm expecting to see him climbing to top 5 in the future.
There is so much I could argue in this video, but the one that makes sense is Zain > Ken. Ken dominated at #1 in the world for years and years, being dominant in the first 2 eras, still able to compete in the 3rd generation. Zain is a recent player who has not proved himself nearly enough to be as goated as Ken.
LMAO honestly when I saw the thumbnail I was sooo confused when I saw Zain/Leffen>Mango and Wobbles top 10 but this is the best clickbait I've ever witnessed lmaoooo That fake list is the easiest way to get Mang0 and Armada pissed haha
PPMD was the last god and hasn’t been one of the greatest since January 2015. I love PP and his contributions to the game, but it’s been too long. So many other names keeping up at that level now.
The reason most people rank Ken in the top 3 of all-time is because people also take into account how long they were dominant. If you look at the criteria for Pikachu942's list (the one you were referring to). You more took a perspective of if the game ended right now, who would be the best. This isn't an extremely bad idea for a criteria but many people would use recency bias as the meta obviously developed over time. You have a unique perspective on the scene though.
The case for Ken (which is the real controversial part of this list imo...) I think he should get a pass on the longevity argument, and should at least be in the top 10, if not top 5. The main reason being is there was little incentive for him to continue competing at a high level. Melee entered the dark ages. Compare him to any of the other 1st gen and 2nd gen (Mew2King's the only 2nd-genner to become a top player) he DID have longevity. When he was trying, he was the best or close to it. He's the king of smash, pretty much the star of the doc and the whole early era of smash. I'm 33, up there in age with some of the old-timers. idk, I just think it's totally understandable for him to want to move onto other things and not have to prove himself in the post-Brawl/doc world. Having him outside of the top 10 doesn't do justice at all for what he did to smash and he inspired a lot of people to want to get better and take the game seriously. Love you Hugs, that's just my take and I think he deserves a high spot on a legacy list.
The problem with this argument is that his last 6 majors he attended from 06-07 he placed 5,7,3,4,1,7. This was DURING the MLG era, so the dark ages did not happen yet and he already fell off.
@@skozy3 "Ken possesses the highest major tournament win-to-loss ratio of any Super Smash Bros. Melee player from 2003 to 2007." He won EVO 2007. The placings you mention still average within top 5, and they were during the period Melee began its decline. It's not falling off when you're arguably the best player of 2007 as a whole. It doesn't make sense how a player can dominate for 4-5 years and not even make a top 10 legacy list... the longevity is there, unless you choose to look past it.
I think Hugs bring this argument about : "His era of dominance was not the hardest one but the easiest one" Players currently are so good right now that even "unranked" players can go back in time and would destroy all Gen1-Gen2 players. Then again, what Hugs is trying to point out is that if he never quit and stayed to challenge the Gen 3 and Gen 4 players, perhaps he might be rank Top 10 by "Hugs standards". Personally for me, Ken pioneer Marth to the very top, he should be at least in the Top 10. It took 4-5 years for people to catch up to him !
Henry Returns yes, and I’m aware of that argument... it’s jut an unfair standard imo. In sports newer players could go back and dominate older players because of better conditioning, strategy, etc. Obv newer tech skill didn’t exist during Ken’s reign. Respect to players that persist through different eras. But an argument could be made it wasn’t easier then because no one had access to newer tech skill... ken found his own way in a different time. Imo an arbitrary barrier is being put up where Ken backed off from the game. It shouldn’t take away from all he accomplished, and like you said being a pioneer for Marth. Like... his combos were sick at the time, it’s not like he was button-mashing his way to victory. Just respectfully disagree for how some of these other players outrank him on a “legacy” list.
@@nathanieldonley5502 While Ken was innovative and dominated the very early era, he was definitely not the best player of 2007 as a whole. That honor belongs to M2K and there is very little evidence to support Ken. Ken's dominance was from 2003-2006, but you only mention 2007. Anyway, it can make sense to not have him top 10 for a number of reasons. Most importantly, the competition he faced during his early years was simply not as strong. When tougher competition started to come around his dominance ended. It would be relatively easy to chalk it off to having weaker competition. Also, if the game had been going on for hundreds of years then a 4-5 year span would not be so impressive, but mostly the number of years don't matter as much as the number of tournaments and the competition at those tournaments.
I feel like Axe's longevity really gets disrespected. dude has been a top 10ish player since 2010. Mang0, HBox and M2K are literally the only other 3 players who can say that. Especially Plup and Chu over him, I'm not sure I agree with those.
@@jijmotorp3079 i said "top 10ish" which is entirely accurate. in the smash history lists they did he was an HM for both 2010 and 2012, and ranked 12th in 2011. that's the definition of 'top 10ish'. also in 2009 he had already beaten Jman and PPMD.
Damn I can't not keep commenting on the voodoo Ranger sponsor. Thats the hypest sponsor of all smashers period. I know BTS has weed maps but that's literally just a tech company riding on the shoulders of weed.
How tf is Chillin supposed to be above SFAT, westballz, hax, amsa, Wizzy, lucky and S2J Also captain jack seems too high and I don't even know who jman is P.s. I love how Isai is on here, he's always been my favourite player... Edit: wow u took him off and put yourself above him fml
You can't call this a legacy list and put Zain at number 10, he just hasn't been around long enough to argue that. I genuinely think he has what it takes to reach top 3 all time, but not only does he not have the full and broad experience considering he's only really been popping off for a bit less than 3 years, his reign has also been in a relatively dry era for the game with so many top players falling off. I think Zain needs more experience going up against some truly amazing players to solidify himself as a top 10 player. I'll say that he does have some impressive wins such as Wizzy in his prime, Hbox in the current era, Plup, etc., but the roster of good players just isn't the same such as how Mang0 and M2k haven't been trying during pretty much the entirety of Zain's prominence, Crush quit, you rarely see sfat and pewpewu, etc. I think if Zain is able to beat Axe at least like 3 times I'd be slightly more convinced, but not yet.
1. Bobby Scar (love the commentary) 2. Ken (he played the game at one point) 3. Dave (dude in my neighborhood, plays young link and i can’t beat him) 4. Armada 5. Professor Pro
Solid list (the real one). I don't think an era without Armada can be considered the hardest. Maybe once offline tournaments start happening again, and with Zain at his current inzane level, and Mango and Leffen both playing at their best again, then maybe it can be considered a new hardest era and a true test for Hbox. That said, besides the Armada stats that convinced you he's #1 all time, there's several more that just add to the argument. IMO his GOAT status is so strong it's set in stone.
Europe didn't record its early smash tournament records nearly as well as America did, so unfortunately it makes it kind of hard to gauge what level players from there were at during eras like gen 1 and 2, and exactly how dominant certain players were in their primes at the time. It's the same sort of thing with regions like Japan, which we KNOW were super strong, but have very little hard evidence for HOW strong. Players like EK for example are talked about as being incredibly dominant in Europe during their time, but very few recordings or even tournament results survive from his era, so how does one measure what is essentially just a legend in Europe to the cold hard data of the legends in the US? That's why most people often place Armada's entrance into the scene at gen 3, since that was around when his results in Europe began to be recorded (2007) and when he finally came to the US and began competing with and beating the players who statistically people KNEW were good (2009). I have been playing melee since 2016, but if I became a top player suddenly this year (2020) no one would consider me a 2016 era player, cause let's be honest, no one cares about the tournaments I entered back then. Almost none of them are recorded or archived and didn't have any impact on the scene at large. Same thing goes for Armada's 2005 & 2006 tournaments, which aren't recorded anywhere. I know Armada likes to throw around that he is a Mew2king era player, but it took him longer (3-4.5 years) than M2K to make an impact on the scene at large, and 2 of those years are arguably completely inconsequential. wall of text yay, lol
My 2 friends (linksterjake and grabfest bowser) played against Ken in doubles. And they actually took 4 stocks from Ken in a match, but couldn't beat isai.
I think it would be very interesting if you made a list ranking the top players not on legacy, but just the pure skill of their peak. And I don't mean like their peak in terms of their era, but ignoring time and looking at who truly was the best given a 2020 lens (which obviously gives bias to recent years since we're much better at the game now/the gen 1 people would NOT be included). I guess a good question that would be answered by that list would be: how many people have surpassed Armada's peak skill level in current day? (It's not the sole reason to do the list, but an example of what to consider when making it)
I feel like HBox should be given some credit because he thrived in an area in an era where the most common character he ran into was his most difficult matchup, and he was still #1
I mean hax has definitely left a bigger impact on the game than shroomed. You think of melee, you think of hax WAY before you think about shroomed. He was also top 10 for a while too, is top 10 NOW, runs tournaments, produces video content, produced his own controller, and innovated a radically different style of play for the best character in the game.
Hax definitely has left the bigger legacy, but if you look at results alone it is hard to argue with Shoomed's legacy too. Hax has a legacy of personality and technology, but Shroomed has a legacy of results that people sleep on. Hax = Eric Lindros & Shroomed = Ron Francis tbh I would still place Hax above Shroomed tho if it came down to it. Hax has got sick results in his career too.
@@nobody-pq5cw Skillwise it's the hardest. Competitive wise its not. A lot of the top players aren't competiting seriously or quitted the game which led to the best players winning more consistently
The game is absolutely harder even with armada gone. I was good enough to make it to bracket at larger events between 2010-2015 but the average level of the player base is astronomically higher than it was during my prime lol.
I like Hugs putting Mango under HBox, I think it's something a lot of people would find absurd but there's a valid argument. With that said, Zain above Ken is comical. Zain is an incredible player but I don't know if he's even above Wizzy. Give him a couple years and he could be top 10, but I don't think he has a supermajor win, just doesn't have that many top 8s.
personally i can't see sfat about Wizzy and Zain four spots above Wizzy rn. Wizzy and SFAT have equal years in the top 10 with Wizzy's being more recent. Wizzy also got the super major win and eight match wins on hbox since mid 2016. Beating the #1 player counts for a lot to me as well as winning a super major so I gotta put Wizzy over sfat. also been a while since sfat's picked up a god win. Wizzy also debuted as a top 30 player in 2014 where Zain debuted top 70 in 2016. Given that and their comparable peaks at majors and similar consistency I think Wizzy is above Zain currently. Still a good list though. I was gonna be UPSET if you put hbox over Armada lol 😆
No way its the hardest level of competition ever without all the gods. Even some top players like plup and leffen aren't taking the game that seriously right now. Wizzy is barely competing. Right now its Zain vs Hbox with some not consistent mango performances. The era with the rise of leffen, the end of ppmd and the peak of armada is the strongest era ever.
I know you weren’t 100% serious when you asked what has the 1st gen done, but I don’t think it’s about what they’ve done, more what they STARTED. Also when you said Azen and ken were scared of the new gen coming, yeah that may be true, but you also have to remember they were getting older and that was a time melee was NOT a career. Not everyone had the guts to keep going like chillin and you and even m2k. No one knew melee would be what it turned out to be. If they were 12-14 years old in 2007, you don’t think they would’ve adapted to the meta like the later generation did when they started with melee? Don’t get me wrong, I think there are much much better players now(obviously,) but their spot in the top 20 all time is kind of solidified for a LONG time.
Putting Armada ahead in head to head even tho recently Hbox began to have his number. And going off recency bias that would mean that Hbox should be higher. We would have seen more wins for Hbox
That head to head vs Armada is strong, but Armada quit when Hbox was really starting his peak. That head to head would have flipped if Armada stuck around. He was gassed out and Hbox has had the endurance to stay #1 for record time, and it started before Armada quit.
1. Hbox 2. Armada 3-4. Mango/M2k 5. Leffen 6. Plup 7. Axe 8. Zain 9. Wizzy 10. Ppmd 11. Sfat 12. Chudat 13. Ken 14. Amsa 15. PC 16. Amsah 17. S2J 18. Westballz 19. Lucky 20. Hax So my reasoning, the top 10 is pretty solid for me. Ppmd is lower than axe zain an wizzy because of inactivity. Cain might be higher in the future, but axe has a great legacy along with plup. M2k is virtually tied with mango, but I give the edge to mango. Hbox get the #1. Armada has been gone and hbox continues to cement the longest concurrent streak of dominance in melee history. I put amsah on the list because he was the best player in Europe for so long.17-20 are highly contestable. Basic criteria is have you beaten a god/gods and how long have you been solidified as a top player. At one point westballz was top 8 and top 15 for even longer. S2j top 10 and top 15 for a similar time. Lucky has wins on hbox, mango and other top players on top of also being top 15 for multiple years. Hax used to be top 10 been fell to inactivity, but rebound is enough to justify his placement. Azen and kdj don't make the list. Neither was ranked 1, neither have that significant of a legacy. They were top 3 in their time and exclusively in their time. Pc makes it pretty much exclusively because he beat Ken at mlg.
Ken isn't mj at all. He's the Wilt Chamberlain, someone who will be rank anywhere in the top 11, literally can be at every positions. I prefer m2k's take on the question. If you say that its hard to be good right now, it was really hard to be good back in the days, where the level was clearly lower so the results were clearly a lot more inconsistent.
Honestly if u consider the fact that armada isnt competing then u can say that its actually not the hardest era for hbox. If armada was still around it would be a lot harder for hbox to claim no1. While armada had claimed no1 many times with all the best players active. Especially since armada had a favorable recors vs hbox
im a huge M2K fan but honestly i would rank PPMD just barely above him and Leffen. i think Zain should be above Leffen too actually, maybe even above M2K and PPMD AND HBox at this point.
NGL I actually skipped all the way to the end because I wanted to see the list and saw the fake list. I was so confused and was like "oh god i gotta see how he justifies this. Only to find out when i went back to the beginning that it was fake. WP Hugs86 WP
I feel like maybe a year or two hbox will have it but mango sounds like he won't stop for a while so both of them have the potential to be 1 and 2 idk order if armada comes back then thats a whole can of worms
The Hax$ disrespect. Unbelievable. Mans made a new fucking controller just so he and others with hand problems could continue playing, then rose back up. You missed, Hugo.
I think eventually Hbox will be number 1, as much as people will hate it. He'd be the first player to be no. 1 for 3 straight years if the year ended right now, what will it look like in 5 years? I far prefer Armada and would have him 1 as well but even though he does have the head to head, Hbox finished above him in his 2 years. Hbox has more grand final sets at EVO too...
Armada has an incredible legacy though. He is positive on everyone except silent spectre and Captain Jack and never lost to anyone outside the top 6 for 7 straight years. That's a pretty strong legacy if you ask me.
How that head to head gonna matter when it’s counting their eaaaarliest matches 😩 come on hugs I’ve have a cup signed by you that I keep in my closet lmao
Imagine trying to argue that the player that has been #1 the longest, won most supermajors, winning records against all gods, dominated in the most competitive age of Smash, isn't the best player.
I don't see official ranking as absolute truth. Here is how I see Melee number one player: Ken 2002-2005 2006 - Up for grabs 2007-2008 M2K 2009- Mang0 2010 - Mang0/Hbox (Mang0 was better, but did not take it seriously) 2011-2012 Armada 2013-2014 Mang0 2015-2016 Armada 2017 Armada/HBOX (HBOX finished big, but Armada won EVO amd Genesis and had a crazy early year). 2018 Armada/Hbox -Armada had a better year before he retired 2019 - Hbox 2015 Armada was dominant 2014 Mang0 was dominant 2007 M2K was dominant 2005 Ken was dominant Hbox is great and is incredibly consistent (still less consistent than Armada though) but never won 2 of the top 3 supermajors in a year. (Armada won EVO, BIG House and Genesis in a row in 2015-2016.) Hbox only dominant run was late 2017. Armada went to 8 straight Grand Finals in 2015-2017 in Super Majors and won 5 of those. During HBOX reign (2017-2019) he went to 4 Grand Finals out of 8 and won 3 of those. He is great, but Armada in on another level.
Does he explain why PPMD isn't on here? I actually think people like Amsa and (even) people like say Marth1 / Ryuto138 / Syrox for Technical Developments
