RE: THE PROBLEM WITH "PROGRESSIVE" MUSIC... (PunkRockMBA) 

What if Real Prog was the friends we made along the way

All that matters in music is actually blast beats.

Thank you for making this!

Finn's a marketing guy so generally, his critique of any genre kinda boils down to the same thing: strategies for bands and genres to expand their audience. Because of this, he tends to approach genre talk from a "dumb guy" normie perspective, which is fine, but I'm not gonna lie, I found myself getting a little cross with some of his observations in this video.

The real problem with Prog (and every genre) is its lunatic fanbase simping over a genre and fighting everyone in a different camp. Music tribalism is for the weak.

I think this is the first time I've ever been quoted third-hand before hahaha. I'M FUCKING FAMOUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSS

Dude. Thank you! I have had major issues with Mr. Punk Rock MBA on nearly every video he puts out. He's a huge fan of taking broad swipes at stuff he doesn't know anything about, and an even bigger fan of his own opinion.

What I love about you man is that you seem to always argue in good faith. You accurately interpret and establish the person’s intended premise and _then_ construct a rebuttal against that; instead of arguing a strawman premise that wasn’t even conveyed by the opposing party. People, especially in politics, have a tendency of doing the opposite and it infuriates me to no end because it’s ultimately a waste of time trying to rebut an argument that wasn’t even made in the first place.

Me: "Oh, progressive music is problematic? Ok." *goes back to listening to Opeth*

Just off the top.of my head, "ROUNDABOUT" by YES is a perfect example of a prog song that simultaneously showcases A Class virtuosic musicianship, while also having great melodies and catchy hooks. You could make a case for bands like ELP, Genesis and King Crimson doing the same thing.

I think Rush is a perfect example of what a prog band should start out and develop as. When they got to Hemispheres they realised that they were burning themselves out with the long songs and complex arrangements, do when it came to Permanent Waves they made a point to shorten the songs and focus on more of a direct approach. While they abandoned the long song format (mostly 😂) they never sacrificed musicianship, they were playing just as busy as they were but limiting their approach to shorter songs gave them more focus on 'catchy' chorus' and made them better songwriters and gave them a leeway to more experimentation within the pop format while still being prog. You can have your cake and eat it too.

Sitting here trying to picture Lorde restraining herself from including a million of odd time signature beats and guitar riffs and face melting solos in Royals.

I absolutely disagree that prog is strictly a guitarists' world. Geddy Lee, Linus Klausenitzer are only two examples of phenomenal bassists that shine just as brightly as the axe slingers.

You should go on the Punk Rock MBAs podcast. It'd been cool to hear you guys actually discuss this stuff

this dude really said any lorde is better than any dream theater 🤦‍♂️

Once you mentioned the "sandwich analogy" i instantly thought of "This Is Not A Song, It's A Sandwich" by Psychostick and i laughed quite a bit lol but otherwise i agree with all you said being an aspiring musician, I notice both sides of the coin and its always been difficult to define but i think you somewhat defined this issue quite well.

PunkMBA: “Prog totally lacks song craft.” Steven Wilson: “Hold my beer, mate.”

I don't get the MBA guy's fixation on writing catchy choruses and vocal melodies. There's genre that does exactly that all the effing time. I got into prog because I got tired of just that. I got into death metal because I was tired of pop punk bands all doing the same thing (writing catchy choruses and vocal melodies). Art is subjective. While I agree with some of his point, he fails to understand that people who listen to prog value things that the mainstream crowd probably don't. Nothing wrong with either. I enjoy bands like Green Day that are all about catchy riffs/melodies but I also enjoy bands like Pain of Salvation that delve into aspects of music that Green Day won't/can't.

There’s a reason why musicians of every genre have an appreciation for prog (not exclusively prog metal), because they understand that it’s not just difficult to play but it also aims to challenge the norms of music by doing something different. It’s like saying classical music fans only care about technique when they actually care about melody and composition. Not that there isn’t bad prog.

Chord progressions, Pop: I-V-vi-IV Prog: 💥-🔥-💔-💢-💯-🔄

Mike: “sing Beethoven’s 5th” Me: *”Dun Dun Dun Dun”*

I think the underlying issue is semantic. When someone says “prog” there is no way of knowing if they mean good shit like Porcupine tree or Devin Townsend versus everything in the Djent genre tree. It’s true that us Djent bois are in a very reductive time music wise and I think the heart of Finn’s critique is based on that, whereas you see prog for what it is because you are integrated in that ecosystem. To a common listener and the general perception of the public Finn is right, but also as someone in the ecosystem I see where you are coming from as well. I think you’re both right you are both just looking at a picture from different angles. The biggest thing I got from Finns original video is a critique that really resonated with me. After I discovered the Polyphia’s and Periphery’s of the world I have had an immensely difficult time writing music that I consider worthwhile, and consequently putting more focus on the simple hooks and melodies rather than how fast or how complex might be a better answer for me in my journey, but also I can see where a prog “purist” would critique his position as well.

I do love how Finn goes on about “wankery complexity” yet he uses video clips from one of the most straightforward Dream Theater songs which was an accidental radio hit with a great chorus.

you got my sub with the mr bungle snippet. lets be honest, no other metal band in the world could recreate Mr Bungle - Disco Volante. Not only a prog masterpiece, but a truly jarring noise music featuring 40's classical and even spanish elements amongst the litany of other influences.

I like how the camera goes out of focus to indicate suppressed anger inside.

Sounds like Finn has never had some good slow-cooked BBQ. Jokes aside, Finn is a business coach and he is looking into marketability as the most important aspect. While it is important for market success, it is not what most musicians look for in music. This is definitely a difference in world view.

This video response cannot be more perfect! Everything that I wanted to say has been already been said by you. Thank you for making this video!

People tend to confuse technical music with prog. That is the core of the problem

Grabbing a Big Mac on the way to a Green Day concert sounds hella fun tbh

Woah. A channel with the name "PunkRockMBA" has grudges against prog? Now THIS i gotta see!

I think a good point to make when talking about Drean Theater is fans of them can't imagine people NOT liking them. If someone just doesn't like them it's always because they aren't skilled at their instrument or they don't understand music. Not saying you feel that way but your reaction to when Minn Fickminty said the thing about Royals reminded me. Nice video dude.

A civil, well thought out discussion. This is wonderful. I applaud you for not going the caveman route. Would love to hear you two together. Well done.

I think Finn sometimes knows what he’s talking about, especially in the punk sphere. But most of his videos that branch away from that consist of opinions based on general, usually incorrect assumptions of something, then acting like he’s an expert. He tries to simplify things down, but he does it to such a degree that he’s misrepresenting it

Thank you for making a rebuttal video. I felt like Finn's video was really narrow minded at times and came from a place of baseless opinions and not actual facts or evidence. So many of his complaints with prog actually originated in classical music which you refer to a lot as well. Wish he titled his video "MY problem with modern progressive metal" but that wouldn't warrant as many clicks, but it would get more validity. I also started his video the same, kind of agreeing he's making some good points but then lost me at the end. Oh and those were great examples you used at the end, Leprous - Below, Dirty Loops etc. And my song of choice that goes against Finn would be The Dear Hunter - A Night On The Town

As a metal head that grew up on 80s thrash, when DT came out I instantly loved it. Blew my mind. It was honestly exactly what I was craving and hearing in my head. I had only been playing for about a year at that point so I couldn't touch it. Lol Great video. Almost 100 percent agree.

As someone who owes prog rock for being my greatest inspiration and obsession back when I was really starting to get into music after hearing The Mars Volta's Inertiatic ESP, I can't help but to now think about something Robert Fripp said about prog being an attitude and instead of style. What I consider truly progressive is music that mixes the aesthetic challenging nature of Art rock along with the experimental song writing of Avant Garde music. The prog bands of the past like Pink Floyd, Yes, Frank Zappa and King Crimson did exactly that whether it be through the production and composition. Especially the last two considering Zappa being Zappa and King Crimson also following their contemporaries down the rabbit hole of 80's new wave but with their own highly experimental take on the genre. The Mars Volta is also another band I would kind of point to as truly prog. The influences they took from old school prog was just one of the many sounds they took inspiration from which included Latin music, Post-Hardcore, Kraut/Space/Psychedelic rock, Electronic music, Jazz and Blues, creating what I would consider a pretty one of a kind sound for its time. If there's anything I picked up from your video, it's that what we consider progressive music is progressive, but not for the reasons we think. We've become so fixated on the qualities associated with prog that we basically forgot what it truly means to be progressive and as a result, we have a vocal minority that champion these quality as the number one defining characteristic of a music worth and end up celebrating bands that we call prog for ironically recycling attributes of the past that used to define early prog, rather than pushing the envelope.

the czech republic gonna be mad about this one

I just don't think every song is meant to be a hit song, and that's okay. Some music is made for more niche audiences than others. Lorde and Dream Theater just have so little in common it feels like a really weird comparison. Why is it a bad thing if prog appeals more to other musicians and music enthusiasts than your general public? Some people enjoy dancey pop music, some people enjoy 15 minute prog epics, some people enjoy jazz, some people enjoy the 0-0-0-0-0-0 in djent,some people enjoy the riff salads, some people enjoy EDM... And it's okay. There's never gonna be a song that's for everyone. I think Mike's CCM videos made a very good point about why it is not a good thing when music is made to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Man I was hoping you'd use three or four examples from the song Octavarium itself, but I'm honestly pretty damn satisfied with the amount and variety of the examples that you gave. The scope of the album Octavarium is insane dude. Some of DTs greatest work to this day imo. Images and Words, and Awake are probably my favorites tbh but that's beside the point. DT is certainly guilty of the aforementioned riff salad and masturbation at times, but their variety of material and style over the span of their career is astounding and sort of shoots that point in the foot. On the whole I'd say their focus has almost always been on songwriting vs writing things soley to blow your mind. It'd be easy to argue the other way based on their inhuman level of technicality, but it's my genuine opinion those parts almost ALWAYS still serve the song, and that is by no means the only thing they do. Periphery and many, many other bands in the scene started from a place of "look what I can do!" in attempts to garner attention from fans and record labels. And it completely worked imo. Though they're fewer and further between, I can think of tons of older songs from them and their contemporaries that absolutely contain super catchy hooks and unique, memorable song structures. I'd argue that they've pulled back a ton after P2, and even a bit on P2 to leave room for vocals and focus on writing cohesive songs as opposed to hyper technical riff salad. They've mentioned that was a problem in older material. The songs were already very much established, and Spencer had an insanely tough time fitting anything in that could compete with the hella layers of instruments and achieving cohesiveness. All that said, dude. For myself and many people I've talked to over the years, often times all it takes to make me give a shit and pay attention to a band is a riff. I grew up loving video game sound tracks which snowballed directly into my love for metal. I just fucking loved catchy, powerful riffs, whether they were impressive and technical or just plain impactful. I was even fairly turned off by screaming vocals at the start. Over time though, I grew to FUCKING LOVE just the general aggression and energy, and the song structures of metal and other heavy types of music. The passion in good and genuine heavy music is palpable and to me, that is the real magic. Tldr: I understand the distaste for riff salad, but sometimes all you need is that big dick riffs to bring things together. It has its place in prog too. Thank you, good night.

I'm quite late to the party on this one, but a perfect example of a prog song that flies in the face of Finn's criticism is Inmazes by VOLA. It begins with an eerie staccato synth and continues in the same time signature while the rest of the instruments play in a different time. Near the middle of the song after the first verse it changes to a more calm and melancholy sound with the staccato synth changing to soft xylophone notes, and all culminates into a beautiful ending crescendo. No wankery, no shredding, just simple heavy guitar riffs in the style of Meshuggah but with a much softer overall feeling.

Personally, I find the compositions of progressive music to be interesting, and a breath of fresh air. I like many genres, but I dont just hear technical prowess in progressive - the unusual structures make me feel unique emotional experiences that other genres don't make me feel precisely.

Of all the prog bands to dump on regarding “riff salad” he could have found way better examples than DT, Rush, and Pink Floyd. They have entire albums that qualify as compositional masterpieces. Yeah, they feature sick riffs and solos, but they absolutely qualify as “songs” instead of a confused tangle of disconnected and unrelated riffs.

I'll be the first person to admit I don't know that much about prog outside of the huge bands like Rush, Dream Theatre, and Pink Floyd, but this was a really great rebuttal and made me want to dive into the genre a bit more. You sir, have a new subscriber.

Some of the songs that have moved me more than any other music I've ever heard: Echoes by Pink Floyd Supper's Ready by Genesis 2112 by Rush Octavarium by Dream Theater Close To The Edge by Yes A Day In The Life by The Beatles Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen Karn Evil 9 by Emerson, Lake & Palmer Larks Tongues In Aspic Part II by King Crimson Lateralus by Tool Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield This isn't even close to the amount of amazing songs that have touched me more than say a lot of Michael Jackson songs, and Michael Jackson is my favourite artist. This misguided view that Prog fails in making songs is just inaccurate, unless of course you're just talking about modern Prog which I largely avoided so maybe that's accurate. But since he didn't exclude older Prog in his video despite mentioning it, it sounds like he blatantly disregarded the fact that those bands were also Prog. Overall, I think it's obvious that he hasn't listened to enough Prog to really have a valid say on the genre. I don't like what I've heard from a bunch of artists, but I won't make a whole rant video on "The Problem with X Artist" video because I don't have a fair grasp on the genre. I can criticise Rap and Hip Hop because I grew up with it played in my house and my dad's truck a lot as a kid and I have listened to many albums recommended by friends who do like the genres and say these are the albums to check out. But I can't criticise Post Malone because I've literally only heard about 4 songs from him, 2 of which were Ozzy Osbourne collabs. I don't have enough grasp on his sound, but the bits I've heard from him in addition to the albums I've heard from Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West, and Eminem and a bunch of other artists give me a wider picture of the genre and I can more easily tell what is pushing me away from liking certain aspects.

The fact that dream theater can have a piece as complex as dance of eternity and as simple as Through her eyes , even the spirit carries on (or take opeth's ghost reveries for example) is what's amazing to me. The guy in the video ( no not you mike ) has definitely NOT done his research properly. Prog musicians (most of 'em) surely know how to restrain themselves. I find it funny when people who only listen to "billboard's top 10" comment on how all prog sounds the same , the hypocrisy is just unreal .

Bohemian Rhapsody is the most popular and catchy prog song of all time

Thank you for clarifying and pointing out that technicality and efficiency all around trying to be good at your instrument and how it has not come from prog but classical, then into Jazz etc

Riffs are totally a song. Nothing wrong with that. Just as valid as just strumming 3 dirty guitar chords in a punk song. There is nothing wrong about having an instrument as the focal point, that it is practically what happens with any genre. Vocals doesn't have to always be.

Not necessarily metal, but a lot of stuff by Rush is progressive while being mega catchy. I mean, YYZ has no lyrics or singing, and people love it, that beginning part is super catchy. Also a good amount of their hits have fairly standard structures, but they weave their musicianship into these catchy, almost poppy tunes in a way that doesn't sound weird or out of place.

Anyone can pick apart any genre. Art is subjective and hopefully will stay that way.

Windowpane is great example for a simplistic prog song.

Thank you with all my heart, man. You just you just turned me on to a whole new list of bands I knew nothing about 🔈🔉🔊

Keith Emerson once said "What some people call self indulgence, I call ambitious". Prog has got to stand in line behind jazz if you're are going to point the finger of arrogant self indulgence. A know a ton of "punks" that feel this self importance of "keeping it real" (rap is king at this) and feel like musical prowess is a lack of soul. There is no such thing as "pure rock"or pure music for that matter. Although I will say that prog fans bring alot of criticism on themselves.

Prog is amazing when its combining inspirations into these beautiful combinations like Rush and Metallica making Dream Theater, or Messhuggah and pop making Periphery. It's not beautiful when people look at previous prog and think "that's great because it's complex." It leads to absolute flavorlessness complexity for complexity's sake.

So I really enjoy these response videos you do, however, I would be very interested to see a collaborative video between you and whomever you may be responding to. Maybe just a split screen video of a zoom/Skype call. I would like to see the other party’s rebuttals to your points, and ultimately just see a productive conversation of the topic at hand with two opposing viewpoints. Nonetheless, still love you, and your content! 🤘🏼

Thank You Scientist bois. Some of the BEST progressive prog rock/jazz fusion out there. Progressive music for me is music that changes its sound as the song moves forward. It's like 2 songs in one, so much so, you sometimes wonder if you are listening to the same song, until you hear the chorus again. I like songs that change and don't keep the same formulaic process as most music does, however, there is a place for that kind of stuff, I usually prefer the more complex. Kansas is more prog than all of those bands that you stated in my opinion. but it is easy to write a hit song....now writing a hit album...that's the true art. So hit songs are played in bars with intoxicated people, you only need make a beat that is easy to follow and something that you can get lost in your inebriation, just like techno and dub step. A simple beat will bring more people to the yard, especially ones that are drunk. Pink Floyd makes simple sounding music, but it has meaning and impact more than others like it because of the technique that Pink Floyd used. 19:58 that was a great analogy, yes, the taste has to come through for it to matter. 23:07 There is a time and place for everything and it's about finding where and when that time and place is in a song. Rock is the most fluid of genres so I don't know what that guys is talking about.... 24:50 again, time and place. Also restraint can create some amazing work as well, but again time and place. Also simplistic can sound amazing, just go listen to From Indian Lakes: Absent Sounds. One of the most near perfect albums I have heard in my life (in my opinion). But complexity does not equal wankery, it can be sophistication. Just as simple doesn't have to equal trash. Though both can be either or, it depends on how it all is used which then comes back to technique. You know what's interesting about Andrew W.K.? He writes all his work first in piano form...just a cool trivia. 25:56 and that right there is one of the stupidest things I've heard someone say...I already stated that a more simple sound is easier to bring in the masses because it is easy to digest. A good steady beat with a catchy tune will in fact please the masses more, but that is because most people's ears are not attuned to sophisticated sounds. I'd say that there is a lot of prog that I myself don't like that others do. I'm sure that if I kept listening to it and getting used to it, I would be able to appreciate it at least, but I don't want to. We all have our likes and dislikes. We also have certain amounts of fucks to give about things and trying them out or continuing to try to understand and for music, I don't think too many7 people have enough fucks to give to explore the complexity side of music...unless of course they were already into classical music. 31:04 I'd argue that Polyphia has different sound depending on which album you are listening to. If you listen to Renaissance, it's a totally different sound to The Most hated which has R&B inspirations. You could argue that the same sound is within each album more or less, but that's the theme of the albums...to say poliphia all sounds that same...that just makes you sound foolish. 31:36 Really dude? YOU think that Rush's songs were easy to play and memorize? Oki... 31:40 well spoken

Bleak by Opeth is one of the best examples of a prog song that's still very accessible. Granted the first 3 or so minutes are definitely not gonna be everyone's cup of tea but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can't get down with the chorus section onwards. Hell the song doesn't even really have a solo despite being 9 minutes long yet it does so much without ever going overboard

19:32 - dude's mind gonna get blown when he finds out fine dining is a thing that exists lol

I enjoy both of these guys. I think they both have a better grasp on music and how it works in culture than 99% of youtube music channels. I'd like to see a video of both of them discussing a topic together.

Progressive Metal is also such a broad term in and of itself. It can be used to refer to everything from Dream Theatre and Queensryche, to Meshuggah and Primus, even through to bands as extreme as Deathspell Omega or Imperial Triumphant.

Finn’s videos tend to fall on both extremes of “fucking yes, 100% agreed” and “no you fucking idiot” simultaneously. Never a middle ground, always one or the other

I think Opeth discography just show how wrong his take is. Take a song like Blackwater Park: tons of riffs, great songwriting, memorable, technical while sounding organic, all of this without a vocal hook or melody. You want restraint ? Fine ! Go listen to Hours of Wealth on Ghost Reveries. These are only two exemples among many others.

The Dear Hunter. All of the acts I through V. Literally flies in the face of everything he talked about.

Thank you for being able to articulate my thoughts better than I could on this video.

Basically anything by early Haken invalidates his points. They were entirely focused on composition over riffs. That's a little less true on recent albums, but they still have amazing moments of composition (Host comes to mind).

"Too much emphasis on being good at your instrument" What??

Love your channel. One important basis of Finns channel is very much a down to earth way a lot of people who like Emmure/hardcore/beatdown type music talk. Many people I know in the scene have an extremely deprecating self referencing humor which is funny to watch. Very tongue in cheek. Definitely not hateful or dismissive. Also it’d help most prog fans to realize his entire channel is on marketability and selling points for a larger audience.

My man dropping the TRUTH! I gave up on Finn after that whole Black Metal debacle... In response to your question: 1 - Somebody - Haken (It's got emotion and memorable vocal lines) 2 - Oceanrise - Caligula's Horse (catchy hooks, superb instrumental interplay) 3 - Shattered - Axon Neuron (perfect example of complexity that works and isn't jarring) 4 - Snårdom - Anglagard (just fucking bonkers, like how can you write music like this?)

First I saw Punk Rock MBA's video, I thought "Mike's gonna have issues" and here we are

Love the Leprous shoutout at the end. They're one of the best progressive bands out there right now. Their song castaway angels is another example of fantastic prog while also having many pop elements

Actually dreamtheater is the first prog band i got into in then90s and fell in love with right away they changed my life as a bass player watching John Myung play under a glass moon on live a Tokyo was a mind blower ,

17:50 One interesting point to this is that I think many pop songs nowadays have a lot more work (and thus time) put into the mixing. I'd argue that it takes longer to mix an average pop song today than your average prog song. So even though it may take less time to write the simple pop song, that might be made up for by the longer mixing process and the creativity that needs to be poured into it to keep the simple song engaging the whole way through. The appeal has shifted away from composition to sonic colour, I think. And if you follow that thought: There's so many cool synth sounds you can just access by browsing through a couple of presets of any of your synth VSTs. But the people programming those spent a lot of time on them. So, standing on the shoulders of giants, in a way.

But what does Corey Taylor think?

Honestly his arguments are really disingenuous and it just feels like he's kinda sour. Also wtf is that sandwich argument? If someone puts more effort and time into making a sandwich, it'll probably be a damn good sandwich and I absolutely would pay more money for it.

I've been to Prague a couple of times, and I must say that I haven't noticed the problems you are discussing here

I like the feedback loop of you reacting to Finn and then Scale It Back reacting to you. Keep this going.

I was 100% sure you were gonna respond to this video after I saw it

Finn always seems grossly misinformed in most of the videos I've watched of his. Sometimes his points are right on, then he'll make a point that makes me think he has no idea what he is talking about at all.

I fucking love you. Thanks for this. I really felt like he crossed the line several times throughout that video. This was an appropriate response my anger wouldn't allow me to make. To answer your question... Everything by Opeth.

Yo thanks for the Dirty Loops rec. That shit is amazing.

The problem with Finns takes is that he's right as often as hes wrong and it makes for pointless viewing.

This is Mikes thesis defense: now he is the ProgRockPhD! Congrats!

I'd posit that most of what Sokoninaru has been doing the last five years is a great balance of prog foundations mixed with accessible melodies, and catchy hooks. Hell, they even recently did a pop-rock song as though to say, "yeah, we can do that too; and, can do it just as well as the crazy technical stuff". Also, there's Thank You Scientist who have been doing catchy, melodious, and extremely technical prog masterpieces since "Maps of Nonexistent Places".

Mike I really wanna see you make a video explaining your thoughts on King Crimson, I think it’d be really interesting to hear.

Honestly probably Tom sawer by rush. Super catchy riffs, vocal lines, and even drums, everybody knows the song and it didn’t sound like anything else at the time it was released. And I find it Ironic that he put that as an example in the beginning of his video

The Pot by Tool has some of the most memorable hooks and melodies i have ever heard

Your comment about the Dance of Eternity is on point. The complicated instrumental’s DT does (Hell’s Kitchen is the exception) does not appeal to many, myself included when I am listening to the CD. HOWEVER, to see and feel it live is a whole different beast. Those songs are awe inspiring live. Just my 2 cents.

Forget prog archives' retrodefinitions. I witnessed the emergence of progressive music first hand and one of its key defining elements was that the sum of its varied instruments exceeded the whole. The failure of some groups to continue observing this characteristic led directly to prog's first extinction event. The problem wasn't over-complexity or too much focus on technique, it was solos (usually organ solos) that lasted too fucking long, like half an hour, and without even the gratification of a climax.

As Mike eluded to at the end, I find it funny how MBA's closing statement is to challenge yourself to both creatively/technically, and write catchy hooky songs that appeal to everyone. A solid message overall. Yet public enemy #1 for his video was Dream Theater. A band who, since their inception, has written BOTH highly technical songs AND more accessible, hooky ones. This is a big reason DT has become arguably the biggest prog metal band over the last 30 years. Here are just some DT songs that focus more on strong vocal melodies, OR are straight up pop songs/ballads: Another Day Surrounded Pull Me Under: (Definitely has technical/proggy elements, but it was still a radio smash. That doesn't happen without some form of catchiness.) The Silent Man Lifting Shadows off a Dream Hollow Years Take Away My Pain Anna Lee Burning My Soul Home: (Again, very proggy. But he claims DT doesn't focus on catchy hooks, and this is one of the most infectious hooks I've heard. Friends of mine who hate prog even love it) The Spirit Carries On As I Am (Proggy and riffy, but still has a very accessible metal sound and focus on the hook) The Answer Lies Within I Walk Beside You The Looking Glass You Not Me Along for the Ride The Enemy Inside: Again, proggy, but still has a more standard song structure with a catchy chorus Paralyzed Untethered Angel Out of Reach Build Me Up, Break Me Down (as Mike mentioned) Far From Heaven Beneath the Surface Forsaken Wither A Rite of Passage That's 25+ songs off the top of my head that cannot be boiled down to a soul-less wank-fest, or have catchy, memorable melodies, and I am definitely missing some.

The other dude kind of had me on board til he said “Royals” is more impressive than anything Dream Theater has ever done. That is objectively incorrect. 😂

That pop punk dude lost all credibility when he brought Rush into this fight. Lorde could never fill the Stadiums in their entire career that Rush packed in their last one.

Great vid bro. I like the punk rock guy, but it was nice to see some one set him straight on some shit that i didn't jive with that he says.

Whaaaaat, sir? Did I hear that correctly? Someone needs to have this man eat a charcuterie board with real sourdough, cured meat, and some nice aged cheese. And good wine. As a chef, that hurt my soul a little. I won’t lie. 😂

I understand the criticisms, I find Suppers Ready to be an incredibly catchy, memorable prog masterpiece with amazing solos and songwriting. I jam out to that 23 minute song like a 3 minute single. Some prog rock songs excell in both categories.

Funny how you were mentioning "Dance of Eternity" and then comparing that to writing a great and memorable hook, I instantly thought of "Fatal Tragedy"s hool, which for those that may not know, is from the same conceptual album "Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory. Dream Theater is the best at pulling off both of the aspects you compared there.

Man, I can NOT say this enough... THANK YOU!!! Thank you for posting this. You really did a great of of explaining that "Prog" is not a type of music, it's a philosophy. And, thanks for being so intellectually honest about all of it. It's so refreshing. I am a prog guy... right on down to my instrument (7-string basses). I am so vilified for saying being half-assed and intellectually lazy is not the same as constantly learning, practicing, and progressing.

Had a feeling you'd respond to this one. This video of his didn't piss me off as much as his trap metal video and there were parts I can agree with, but I did feel he took a bit too simplistic of an approach to prog, especially when he was comparing it to pop. Along with saying things about it that can easily apply to pretty much every genre of music. Not to mention, I feel prog plays a very important role in keeping rock from becoming too typical which is a key component for it to not be dead, which I think is something Finn should respect about it.

Orwell warned us in 1984 about the over simplistic songs with easy melodies and always the same tempo and harmony, easy for the "citizens" to understand, memorize and consume... Depriving them of what music should bring... Reflexions, questions, hope, growth... Just stupid melodies to occupy your mind and prevent you from wanting better. Basically what we have trending on RU-vid everyday. Absolute crap. Great response btw! 100% 👍

I agree with both of you on some points, some of the time. What Ive always said about prog metal technique and composition is that "Its sounds impressive, but it doesnt take make me anywhere"

"...I think [simple melodies in popular music] has a lot less to do with making a song good or bad, and a lot more to do with the fact that people don't like being challenged, and people, musically, are not very educated today. Liked and subscribed.