Good Prog vs Bad Prog | Mike The Music Snob 

Where can I find this original song that you mentioned in the intro? To you, it is named? Didn't find it, I'd love to hear it, though! Edit: Ah, fuck, it's called Won't be saved. I got that now XD

Can’t wait to hear how much mike hates dream theater

So progressive bands are bad at being progressive because the are only progressive and so do not progress from being progressive? Wait, what did I just say?

Using this, one could argue early 80s thrash was "progressive" as it was a totally unique mix of British heavy metal and punk

I feel like he tried to avoid saying King Crimson in his prog examples.

Wait... did you just clickbait me with the beautiful Petrucci?

So... good prog: Beatles bad prog: Dream Theater, Periphery

Periphery have just come into their own and are just making refined songs based on their tastes. One thing you didn’t mention, is how not only did Periphery push musical boundaries but they also have influenced mountains of musicians/bands in terms of production!!!

You're spot on with Periphery just making music they love. In an interview about Hail Stan with Jake and Spencer and they basically said they aren't trying to fit into a genre, they are just trying to make music that they are proud of. That's why there were songs like It's Only Smiles and Crush on the album. Personally I really love the fact that each album they put out is a little bit different than the last. I can listen to large chunks of their catalog in a row and not get bored.

Mark Holcomb is one of the best rhythm guitarists of the past 15 years

Mike: I always talk about prog. Everyone else: He never mentions Tool in the discussion. Me: I thinks Mike does not like Tool.

Totally agree on the Beatles. Although I would say King Crimson took prog to a whole new level

2:24 I didn’t come here to be personally attacked

I am the Walrus as the greatest shitpost of all time LMAO

The medley in abbey road gets me going. Just like when you hear “oh look out” and then “she came in through the bathroom window”

What I love about this channel is that you seem to be constantly rethinking everything. You don't let yourself fall into a place of basically just selling out for views. You're constantly evaluate what you're doing, and make sure that you keep the passion in it. I seriously appreciate that.

I though Hail Stan was incredibly inspiring and some of Periphery’s best, most genuine work. Reptile is the best, most adventurous song they’ve ever done in my opinion and the entire thing is phenomenal.

Essential prog collection: first King Crimson album, Genesis 'Foxtrot' and 'Lamb Lies Down on Broadway', Yes 'Close to the Edge', every Pink Floyd album from the 70s.

Hail Stan is a freaking masterpiece, wtf.

I’d have to disagree with what you said about hail Stan.

Mike: **Says Dream Theater is bad prog** Me: *IT'S THE SIGN OF THE TIMES!!!*

Alpha and Omega as an album concept was quite interesting, and from my perspective quite unique. Most likely similar stuff has been done before, but I think it took concept albums to the next level. How each album had the same songs not quite mirrored, but either derived from each other or simply different interpretations, different "genres" for the same lyrics, changing the meaning of the words via context of the instruments and performances themselves. I considered this style of meta-writing quite "prog", but I don't know if you will agree to that.

Love that you mentioned Mike Patton. His influence is soooooo disproportionate to his actual popularity.

Really dig your new song! The growls fits in really nicely and it flows really well altogether

Personally, I think periphery has gotten better over the years. 3 and hail stan in my opinion are their best works. Very groovy and melodic with some pop moments that somehow work for me. Yeah they definitely aren't as proggy as before but they've honed in their strengths and written some great songs.

To me the best prog is when they can paint images in your mind. "Close to the Edge" or "And You and I" by YES is a prime example. Many other prog bands can do the same in their own ways.

I need a video with 10 Reasons Why Power Metal Never Dies

Great one. Quite an interesting theme that, I believe, deserves a second part... I'd just love to hear more of what you think on good prog vs bad prog.

Seriously. I slowly become obsessed with this channel. I sacrifice my high speed, instead of waiting an hour... I have to

Bad prog? BLASTPHEMY! 11/16

Progressive rock/metal are my favorite genres too. This was a really good video, thank you for making great content Mike. I was surprised you made this. Right after I learned writing riffs with polyrhythms I saw this and was excited. You do bring up some great points, prog isn’t just complex instrumentation. It should be literally progressive, pushing music in new directions. Thanks for your videos Mike! Ps. What do you think of King Crimson (dumb question)

As some one who found Periphery a while back I enjoy most if not all of their albums and they were my first experience in prog though admittedly I didn't know the proper criteria till this video.

I found your channel recently and I've literally watched 20 of your videos. You're awesome. 💪💪💪

Next video: *Good Psychedelic vs. Bad Psychedelic*

that was such a great and fascinating descriptive breakdown of the Beatles. No one has ever described the Beatles in such a great way.

super video dude. made my day

My favorite theme of progressive rock/metal is the genre blending. I feel like this was the definition of prog rock when it started. ELP playing a classical russian music piece with a fender jazz bass and distorted organ is an amazing creation, like who knew it would work so well? One thing that i have come to love is the very sudden change in genre, not just blending them like King Crimson and Rush, but completely 180 the song into a completely different genre mid-song. Haken and The Dear Hunter do this well, and as they are my biggest modern musical influences, this is something that I have been trying to perfect because it has such a mesmerizing effect on me. Needless to say, when Devin Townsend released Genesis, i probably listened to it back to back about 40 times the day it released because it really was a perfect example of the sudden genre change aspect.

Huh, always kinda thought experimental/avant-garde to be a better classification for bands who try to push boundaries constantly. Prog can be experimental, but it seems best to use the colloquial use of the term, as people wont necessarily fault a prog band for not experimenting. Experimental bands tend to be held more to account for not pushing boundaries. But that's just my layman's two-cents worth

I totally agree with you Mike, once again. Great video!

Strawberry Fields is an absolute masterpiece.

Look up David Maxim Micic's "Who bit the Moon" album Id argue he fuses genre flawlessly

Opeth has not stopped exploring new sounds, in fact the last few albums have been a testament to their will to actually change. There is no doubt in my mind that they are the best prog band right now.

Great post Mike. I like your take on the beatles.

Superb analysis Mike! You are spot on in regards to The Beatles. Before 1967, songs like "A Day in the Life" just didnt exist. The only other mainstream artists that were experimenting to the level of The Beatles was Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys with "Pet Sounds". Well done man, I got goosebumps 🤘

Some of these definitions are a bit snobby and inaccurate. I see Prog as any music within Popular Music that expands it's structure beyond formulaic verse-chorus-verse. There is so much genre bending and innovation in all genres - the only difference is their structure and capacity for complexity. For a prog artist to be great IMO they just have to have their own sound, own identity, and produce great music. Dream Theater qualifies. The Beatles were proto-prog and definitely influenced early Prog Bands by their exploration of structure and complexity. But their biggest influence was on all popular music as a whole - the more verse-chorus-verse type.

I’ve always just defined it in my head as “rock but more intricate or odd and not conforming to any mold just for the sake of it.” It’s always interesting to hear othere people’s interpretation of the term.

Love how honest your channel is

My two favorite people who inspire me to look at everything is Stevie Ray Vaughan and Bill Steer. I love looking at all genre's of music and ask myself "What do I like, and what do I not like". It really has broaden my perspective on music, in general.

The Beatles didn't invent prog but the were at the top of the world's rock scene at the time so they would very quickly get into everything new presented in music. Albums like The Mothers Of Invention ‎- Freak Out! 1966 The Nice ‎- The Thoughts Of Emerlist Davjack 1967 The Moody Blues ‎- Days Of Future Passed 1967 Pink Floyd ‎- The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn 1967 and probably many others were fast enough to ride the prog train. It was the time the gear for making prog was becoming available and experimentation was inevitable. Prog was bound to happen anyway. I am a Beatles fan myself but there were so many thing happening at that time they could not be out (or could they?) What you can admire on that band is their decision to slap society who wanted them to be a pop boy band and changed the game becoming a very non-mainstream friendly group as well as an influence to other prog bands that followed. The basis for developing prog was already in progress though, pun intended :)

Good workout music (Through the Fire and the Flames) vs bad workout music (Let’s Get Physical) (I’m pretty sure it’s secretly about someone else entirely)

This kind of video has the greatest qulities of SSF in my opinion, which is showing some of the criteria you use to judge music, and you can go further in this format, showing how does this criteria applies successfully and how it fails. To me this is important because it gives me linguistic tools to discuss music in a more objective way. Thanks a lot and keep it up, man!

Thought provoking and informative. Thank you for creating the content you do byway of offering sustenance through substance in a generally otherwise hyperinsulinemic inducing sugar-crash platform of non-nutritive offerings.

Video about progressive Rock, without mentioning the most innovative, most evolving and changing Prog band, King Crimson, isn't really right.

I think you're mixing up evolutionary music and the progressive genre. Just my personal opinion.

I'm not generally into the genre, but Won't Be Saved was truthfully fantastic. Great work dude, I cant wait to hear more!

You raise very interesting points. I see your logic there. I would love to hear your opinion on more heavy styles of prog in metal. Cheers!

Notification squad!!🤘🤘 Love ur vids Mike🤘

I completely agree with what you said about Periphery. They are my favorite band and P1 and P2 were monumental in regard to being progressive and influential. Doesn’t mean that the rest of their discography isn’t great, and as you said, it’s not the bands goal to be progressive for the sake of being progressive, but rather make music they feel like making.

Won't Be Saved is awesome. Really, really well done 👍

Enjoyed your perspective, Mike! This is a very intriguing angle of approaching “progressive.” One could look at the career trajectory of numerous influential bands and argue that many started out progressive in the broader sense of expanding the horizons of a given genre merely as a side effect of trying to find their own sound. Once that signature sound is honed and established, the torch is effectively passed in a way.

Thank you for mentioning Steve Vai and Opeth in the good prog category, they’re two of my favourite artists: Steve Vai is my guitar hero and one of the best and most progressive artists, and Opeth has made some of the best Progressive Metal I’ve ever heard. But let’s not forget Porcupine Tree... oh my god. I discovered them recently and I’m never turning back. If you haven’t listened to them, please do. Steve Wilson is a musical songwriting genius. Listen to the album In Absentia.

love how everyone thinks Periphery were the first of that style when Periphery themselves state they got so much of their influence from Sikth. But this review is like someone stuck in time always wanting a band to sound like two albums before people grow as does their music.

Omg,Just the Mellotron alone gives me chills on "I am the Walrus" and when Lennon comes in on the second part of the song "sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun"For me, pure bliss.You really start to see George Martin's production at work...I forget who it was,I think the guitarist of Jefferson Airplane that said "everybody at that time would wait to hear the new Beatles album sounded like to see what music was gonna sound like for the next 3-5 years" Lastly,when they recorded "Abbey Road" they had already made plans of dispersing.They said that was there attempt to make the best/perfect album that could incompice them at that time...oh yeah,Lennon has said at the time of recording "White Album"he was on Heroin which had a lot to do with 1.Him recording one side and Mccartney recording the B side and he told George Martin he didn't want any of his arrangements,he just wanted to keep it simple...thats the reason in the Album sleeve Lennon's looking left away from the band in there solo pictures.lol Sorry for the long rant comment and Love the Channel and respect all your views and opinions.👍🤘

Lolol. “Good” Bad vs. Just Plain Bad would be interesting. 😂. 💜

Hey Mike, find it interesting that you mention the Beatles having given up more by Let it Be than Abbey Road - Let it Be was (mainly) recorded before Abbey Road. I agree that Let it Be wasn't as great as what came before it, it just felt messy (even if fun). I mean, "I Me Mine" sounds killer but unfinished and I wish they'd worked more on it, for example. But Abbey Road is magical to me, in very many ways. One of my favourite albums of all time, just always an experience with each listen.

Beatles, mostly agree but they did some nice technical and theory implementations. Mr. Zappa, way agree. Mike Patton is underappreciated. Dream Theatre, agree and someone had to say it.

I applaud your talk of The Beatles. I have always said the same thing.

Thank you scientist is amazing.

To me, progressive music has always meant music that is focused on progression, not music that is progressive in a broader sense of the term. In this respect, structure is the defining factor. Songs which deviate from the standard verse-chorus format and are instead focused on theme and variation, the use of leitmotifs, contrasting various chord progressions, modulation, changes in tempo and time signature, the use of movements in the way a classical piece does, the use of formats atypical of the genre (like a fugue, for example), etc. are progressive. Bands that write music primarily in this style are progressive. Innovation or fusion is not necessarily inherent, although it's quite common for progressive music to be innovative and fuse genres. Music focused on creating a new sound would be what I call experimental and if it winds up being unusual or bizarre, avant-garde. Again, a lot of progressive music has these attributes as well. This is all very subjective and I'm no expert. That's just my way of differentiating and defining those terms. I respect your opinion and it's made me think. I've always thought of Dream Theater as the kings of modern prog and of Periphery as progressive metal before any other subgenre (imo djent is not a true subgenre, it's just a style of guitar playing). I guess that all depends on your perspective, though.

For the record, Let It Be was recorded prior to Abbey Road.

It’s nice to listen to someone try to explain prog, I think that prog is a blanket term for the most part more sophisticated music, but prog can also just mean different, changing, so while it’s hard to explain I think everyone is progressive in there own little wau

İ think these formats are fantastic,because you can show in direct comparison,how a song of a certain genre is made good,and bad.İnstead of just talking about a good or bad song,like most other RU-vidrs.

Good VS Bad ALT ROCK EDITION!

Coheed & Cambria's 2nd and 3rd albums are very prog.

So well spoken 🤘

Also you mentioned on the stream you would talk about the Beatles, I was like "What the Hell?" when you posted this.

"The Beatles were the first to be prog and their melodies are some of the best" The Kinks: "Am I a joke to you?"

What if progressive rock is just regular rock, and we all just haven’t progressed enough?

I totally agree with your Beatles argument.

I really felt the passion in that one. I could feel that what he was saying was thought out because he cares about this particular aspect of music. I liked the vibe overall.

I've been arguing for years that The Beatles were the ultimate prog band. It's nice to see someone who agrees. Disagree with your take on Abbey Road though. I think it's their best album. The magic may have been waning with The White Album and Let it Be (both still great albums), they managed to pull it together and knock it out of the park for Abbey Road. George Martin had a lot to do with it though.

There’s a little irony in progressive music having these guidelines lol I understand why but I think people should just listen to a song for what it is, cause genre labels don’t indicate the quality of art by any means, but there’s people out there that really believe it to be that way. Genres are like races of people, there’s good and bad in every single one of them

That's a weird way to pronounce king crimson

Awesome video, Mike. Would've loved to see more examples of "good" Prog bands to really understand why Periphery and DT could be considered "bad" in the prog hemisphere

Can you go over Gothic rock/metal? Like Evanescence, Laguna Coil, within temptation, we are the Fallen, etc

Could Black Sabbath be progressive since they are technically the first metal band therefore progressing the genre of metal/rock?

When a musical form becomes a formula or a blueprint, that's a recipe for trouble.

Dude your video made my day. I have been going crazy with this shit and i am so happy to see someone else actually call it as it is. You and Anthony Fantano seem to be the only people on the internet that actually get this! *EDIT* : I agree with most of what you say including most of the beatles stuff, except I dont think they were the first. Personally, i think you're leaving out artists at that time who inspired them to be more progressive, as in the Beach Boys, Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, and Jimi Hendrix. Yes the beatles (and the beach boys) were the band most known for drastically pushing the boundaries of rock, but most of those ideas they took directly from these four groups. I'd say the beach boys were the first actual prog group and were more prog early on than the beatles, California girls is definitely the first song to push boundaries in the way you are talking, but its even more evident on "Pet Sounds" and a track like "Good Vibrations". The Beach Boys are very neglected in this discussion in my opinion. So you are somewhat neglecting those groups when you say the beatles were the first prog band, because these four artists got the beatles interested in experimentation, so they would be more appropriately considered the first prog groups. I am happy you bring Zappa up afterwards but i wish you would have given him more credit when discussing the beatles. That and i would say Jimi Hendrix was also a driving force in the beginnings of prog and I'd say he could be considered one of the first in it too. He was constantly pushing the boundaries of the genre, and even after making some of rocks most progressive albums he was at a point where he grew bored of what he was making and was desperately trying to find new ways to experiment, and before he died he was contemplating a LOT of experimental ideas for his next albums including both collaborating with Miles Davis, and making an orchestral rock album. He already had changed the face of rock forever but he would have probably rebuilt it once again had he not died. He could also be considered a pioneer of prog, in fact i think its so evident I'd say anyone that denies that is an idiot even.

With this definition, you need a new name for the genre in which bands and song uses certain elements generally recognized as prog !! That's what people think of as prog, and now we want a comparison video of that genre !!

Good vs bad pop punk please

Dope vid. +1 sub side note: I actually really love Periphery IV: Hail Stan. Every song on that album made it on to my all time favorite playlist and I could listen to songs like Reptile all day. But that´s just how it is. Everyone has their own taste afterall. Cheers from Germany, Dominik \m/

This is, in my opinion, one of your most interesting ever videos! You completely changed the way that I think about Progressive Music and what it actually means to be progressive. This new definition of Bad Prog and Good Prog could maybe be changed, although "True Prog" sounds kind of worse. I think most bands that start out as explicitly Prog almost always move away from that sound. Look at Yes in the 80s and Genesis with Phil Collins (I think the major exception to this is King Crimson, who were always fucking mental). But yeah, Progressive as being moving the genre forward is an interesting an idea. I think some more to add to the Bad Prog list are: Mastodon (I love them but they don't really do anything new) Gojira (I mean, I fucking love them and you could argue their riffs were kind of revolutionary in terms of Death Prog, but meh) Muse (if you could call them Prog at all, they really only had one proggy album, Origin of Symmetry) Rush (my favourite band, but they were really just Led Zeppelin combined with Yes and Genesis, I supposed they added more of the harder edge of Prog but that's about it) Two more for Good Prog: Porcupine Tree (just Steven Wilson in general) Tool (completely changed the game in terms of Prog Metal, I know you don't like them as much as others, but they were something completely new and fresh). I'd say that Dream Theater with Images and Words and Awake (my two favourite DT albums) were way more progressive by your definition. Anyway, loved the video, love you, etc. Long live Prog!

This definition makes it untennible as a genre. You would never know what to expect this way. It would share the problem found in power metal.

To me Prog is just an advanced style of playing and writing.....that’s it.

Just subscribed today, great video man! Being a huge fan of prog myself I have always argued The Beatles were the true first. One band that no one seems to ever mention in prog metal is Death. I think Chuck knew he was creating something special and it all comes together and shines in The Sound of Perseverance. I think he did what the Beatles did and melded two genres together in a way other bands were afraid too. Now he is legend.

@Become The Knight : What about Tool ? What do you think about them on this topic ? And btw, thank you to put Mike Patton on this list of good prog. From far, my favorite artist and, even without being influencal, he is really one of the most versatile singer and artist. Keep up the very good work and analysis you make ;)

What’s the difference between binary code and periphery tabs? This isn’t a joke I’m asking a legitimate question

Finally! A video that I can disagree on more than two points on! Well, not really disagree, just confuses me a bit. So, Periphery and Dream Theater are bad prog. Ok, that's fine, I guess, but they aren't bad bands at all, they make amazing content and such. So we shouldn't really call them prog, because they don't fit as well as Steve Vai or King Crimson in the spectrum. Ok, that would be fine, but what the hell am I supposed to call them, then? Should we add another subgenre to the already extensive list of metal/rock? Or should we literally introduce people to those bands like "Oh yeah, they're amazing, but they aren't good prog"? Or should we just adapt a new meaning to the term Prog to make our lives easier? It just all seems way too complicated to call amazing bands bad at their genre, or to create a new genre. And even if we did make a new genre, what should we actually call it? No, really, what am I supposed to call them without saying they're bad at their genre? It just seems a bit silly in my eyes to try and fit almost any band into a definition of "good prog" that won't eventually lose their actual identity/sound. If they keep progressing, they would theoretically have to lose their original sound completely at one point in time. Either that, or they quit before they hit that wall. Still, I enjoyed the video, as I do with all your content. Keep it up, Mike!

Mike, I like the way you think. Very well said.

I can really see the parallels between prog like "Yes" and the arrangements of the Ray Noble Orchestra from the 1930s, no surprise as many of these bands like Yes and Pink Floyd were British, as was Ray Noble.