Reacting to the $12,000 Stark Varg E-Moto! - Our Opinions and Technical Overview

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Hey everyone. In today's video we are going to be reacting to the new Stark Varg bike. It is looking to be the new front runner in electric MX bikes and we are going to share our opinions on it. Enjoy!
Checkout the Stark Varg here: starkfuture.com/en-us-US/prod...
Email: emotobros@gmail.com
Website: emotobros.com
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Опубликовано:

10 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 148

@jeanrenaut196 2 года назад

Hello and thank you for this information. Really interesting video but I would like to add some clarifications and information if I may. I would like to give the information that I have about this bike and coming from my experiences and the technical service of this company. To start with I have ridden on : -1 YZ 250 of 1999 - then 125 CBR-R - KTM Freeride E-XC 2019 and finally and currently on : - Surron Light Bee X 2021 I am now 38 years old, I am 1m78 tall and weigh 73 Kg I sold my electric KTM in December 2021 hoping to buy the Surron Storm Bee that I have been waiting for 3 years now... In the meantime I bought a Light Bee X to have fun in the woods. First of all I have to say that the Light Bee X has nothing to do with the KTM. The light Bee is clearly not a cross or enduro bike for me: It's fragile, I punctured the tires in less than 200Km, I broke the rear mudguard in a few jumps, and that without doing huge things: forest ride and bmx terrain... Let's not talk about the autonomy which does not exceed 40 Km and the maximum speed of 70Km/h... It's clearly a touring vehicle for those who don't like pedaling. Contrary to the videos you can see on the net, those who think it's great have never tested any other bike before or have added 6000€ to the initial price to add a BAC 8000 controller plus 72V 42a battery + handlebars, fork and suspensions (which means that it doesn't have much to do with the original and that the final price is finally equivalent to the KTM but with 19' rims and much more fragile. Don't expect to make jumps like in the Varg video lol I do not regret my purchase because this bike is agile, light and not too ugly and can pass for a bike in places where motorcycles are prohibited and especially it is approved. I am very interested in this new Stark Varg because it has almost all the points I would like to have for an electric enduro or cross bike but BEWARE! The list of disadvantages for me: - Not homologated so only on circuit (a homologated version should come out in 1 years... so + delivery probably not before 2025 minimum) - Small company with no local support in France - Battery not removable (see emails below from the technical service) - The price : almost twice the one of a 2T thermal cross ! - no real test or proposal of test before being able to order it 13000€! - The battery capacity is only 1/3 higher than the KTM 3,9Kw vs 6Kw which offers at most 45 KM of autonomy or 1h30 in forest mode 1 and 2 so I don't see how we can ride with the Varg 6h or do more than 60 Km especially if the power is more important, it will consume much more. - the delivery times which seem to be getting longer - The economic crisis with the political and economic stories that will not help things You will find below my exchanges by mail with the support of the Varg The Storm Bee suited me better but : -The design is really ugly I think - The autonomy is identical to the KTM according to the few people who could test this bike - It is heavy: more than 120 Kg - The chassis is not at KTM level - The support in France is really average - Many problems on the first available models - Not sure if it is suitable for cross-country riding as there are few videos showing really good jumps... -Made in China The plus - It is homologated - It can be ordered - The price is reasonable < 8000€ - eco bonus - the battery is removable - The company is known for more than 5 years - the reverse gear -The abs - the many modes : rain, turbo, eco, ... - The Max speed of 110 KM/h According to you, should we buy this VArg ? Waiting for a homologated version even if you are too old to enjoy it one day ? Buy the Storm Bee ? Or pray that a big box like Yamaha or Honda as it was the case, offers something really serious and competitive like the late Alta ? Exchanges with Stark Support : Hello, I'm contacting you again because I have a lot of questions before buying a vehicle at this price: - What kind of license do I need to use this vehicle? I would like to take the version: 80CV Currently I can drive a KTM E-XC equivalent to 125 cm² but I don't have the big cube license so as it has the power of a 450 cm3 if I understood well -Is the presented version planned to be homologated? The one I will receive in September 2022 would be a homologated version? - Will the battery be removable? Because if I want to charge my bike when I'm at work, I don't have an electrical outlet outside and I have to remove the battery. - Can the battery be changed? If yes, at what price? And how long is it guaranteed? - what is the size and weight of the charger? - Will there be a reverse gear like on the Surron Storm-Bee? - Will it be possible to put your own Android phone to manage the display and the configuration of the bike? - What is the maximum speed for driving on the road? - Can the delivery time be met? Why the price is not the same in the US and in Europe ? 13 000 $ is not equal to 13 000€ ? - Will this machine be eligible for the ecological bonus and if so how much will be paid? - Is the suspension adjustable? Because you have to choose the weight of the rider when you order. ==> answers : Dear Jean. Thank you for contacting the Support Department. - You won't need a license since its a recreational off road not street legal version. - The presented version is not homologated, and you will recieve the current model presented. - The Stark VARG is not designed to remove the battery since it's an structural point. - The battery can be changed (price not available yet) - Size and weight of the charger not available yet. - The Stark VARG do not have reverse gear. - Yes, you will be able to download the Stark App on your own device. - Top speed with stock gear ratio is 140kmh/87mph - We are working according to plan so delivery should met the target. - It is not the same due the currency. - Unfortuantely we can provide you the answer for that. Since it is unclear. - Yes it is, we are using KYB fork and rear shock. Please if you have any questions, comments or concerns during the process, let us know. Thank you. Kind Regards. Mike Lorenzo. Customer Service Manager ----------------------- Hello, I would like to know the top speed of the bike, if the battery can be recharged outside the vehicle, if a homologated version will exist? What license will be required to drive it? Will the delivery deadlines be kept for September 2022? The conversion rates between dollars and euros will not be respected? 13100 $ is not equal to 13000€. is the delivery in France possible? if yes at what price? Thanks Answer : Thank you for contacting the Support Department. We will work for an Enduro version (homologated) for the future. Deliveries starting in September 2022. We will ship worldwide. Shipping price is added at the check out. Please if you have any questions, comments or concerns during the process, let us know. Thank you. Kind Regards. Mike Lorenzo.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Wow thanks for the very detailed comment. I'm going to pin this comment so everyone can see it at the top! We are definitely on the same page that the SurRon really shouldn't be compared to other offerings in its stock form as it's a far cry from being effective as a dirtbike and you have to throw thousands to even make it competitive on a track and even then it's no gas bike. As you mention though, it really isn't meant to be. I think it serves its purpose well and at $9,000 invested (including bike price), I enjoy it more in the trails than any full size bike I've ridden, gas or otherwise. Does that mean it's better? No, but we are in it for the enjoyment, not competition. I had no idea that the current model isn't homologated until you and another comment mentioned it, which explains why it won't be used in sanctioned races anytime soon so thanks for clarifying that. I would've thought for sure that a bike going for the top spot in the MX market would've made that a prioritry. Do you know if there are rules about how long the bike needs to be in production before it can be considered homologated or can the governing body (FIA?) homologate a first generation assuming it passes whatever criteria they have? My pro con lists look very similar for both the Varg and Storm Bee. For me, they both feel so close but are just missing a few things. The Storm Bee really is not a great looking bike, the handling seems pretty bad, and the weight as you mentioned. I think that if you are going to offer anything electric with current generation electric technology it is absolutely critical that the battery be removable and frankly there is no good excuse for it not to be. Having a battery that isn't 'meant to be removed' basically is saying 'you need to buy multiple bikes if you want to compete with them'. So basically best case scenario you can hopefully switch the battery in under and hour and hope you make the second quali/moto/practice or you have to spend $26,000+ and get multiple bikes. Then again, a spare battery (or two) isn't going to seem much better economically. I'm always weary about giving advice about what people should or shouldn't purchase which is why I like to make videos in this format that kind of just lays out the pros and cons and allows people to decide based on the information the company has provided and the information I (hopefully) added some insight to. If I must though, I haven't put down a deposit on the Varg and we've had oppurtunities to buy the Storm Bee and haven't which I suppose says all it needs to about our plans to get either bike. I'm not sure that I'm saying one of the 'Big 5' will make something better but we are in no rush to spend so much money on something so untested. As I mentioned in the video there were so many oppurtunities to prove the Varg is better than other offerings with data and they didn't - this makes us nervous. If it was so obviously better why not be more transparent? We've often wondered why any of the major manufactures haven't released anything yet and my best guess is that it is because they've gotten deep into it and realized that the technology isn't quite there to be competitive with their other offerings. Stark says in the video 'we want to prove electric is better in every way' and I'm sure that's what everyone whos making them wants. However, at the end of the day, no one has proved they are better in every regard and developing cutting edge tech is not economical unless you're the ones who find the breakthrough everyone is after. It's a good sign that these companies are starting to release kid's bikes in electric forms and I personally believe that is the perfect place to start. There is simply no reason to go for the top dogs right out of the gate. Get the younger generation into electric and the rest will fall into place. I truly believe the best place for E-Motos to make their mark with current tech is in the 160-180Lb light moto division. So much potential and so little competition...

@jasonschwartz9481 2 года назад

@@emotobros thank you for pinning this and your in depth thoughts. I'm now 45 and, though I'm still a competitive athlete "somehow" lol... I'm not necessarily looking to pick competitive moto back up. Playing hockey is enough for me lol That said, I do have a 2013 RMZ250 that I use for multiple types of riding. None of my buddies have ever raced motocross before so they're all about single track and trail riding. I love that stuff, but also enjoy hitting the motocross tracks for a day and just throwing down laps. I have a CRF250f too, but don't really take it out much. So, for someone like me a bike that has the ability to be adjusted on the fly is GREAT! I feel like the 250 class motocross bike has served me well since they still have plenty of torque and, IMO, are more fun on most tracks than the larger 450's. But, yeah, I'm not going to spend time setting the bike up for trails in most cases. And, in certain areas of southwest Pennsylvania, the power on those just wears you out to control. And, like I said, I don't really like switching out which bike I'm using or hauling two around especially since my 13 and 11 year olds now ride a bunch lol Anyway, for me, the Stark Varg looks like a dream come true with the ability to DRASTICALLY change the power output on the fly. The battery life is a huge concern so I'm going to wait until next year when there's a ton more riders who've had 1st hand experience. And, without the ability to switch batteries that's a huge let down. But, I could definitely see this replacing gas bikes for me due to my usage. That said, I'm thinking about getting either a Sur-ron X or a Talaria. Or, well, just building my own lol. But, I do agree they're a totally different animal and their own category. I look at those as a BMX that can hit trails like a mountain bike. With my kids, that's actually perfect. I was even thinking about the Segway x160 for my two sons, but then I saw that it only gets about 1.5-2 miles before the battery hits that low power mode. That's just not worth the $3500 in my opinion.

@paulcherry474 2 года назад

Sur-ron has zero support . this Varg will hurt feelings please. i raced a sur-ron 2 times and walked my last lap. ill wait for that specked out bike .

@martinfoster5163 Год назад

@@emotobros I've owned the Storm Bee for 10 months now. Aesthetics are subjective and I happen to like the styling. However, it's a low priority for me. I've got the enduro and I ride 95% off road, almost daily in the mountains of Mongolia where I live. I have no experience with motocross bikes but I came from dual sport/adventure bikes. I suppose if you come from motocross or Light Bees, then the Storm Bee is heavy. I came from adventure bikes (600-1150cc) so it's light and nimble for me. I feel no need to modify it, although I may buy a second battery one day and get the 104v/55Ah battery they now state. It was previously reported as being a 90 something volt and 40 something Ah battery. They claim 10 more km for range and speed with the new battery. I'm extremely happy with my Storm Bee. No, I absolutely love it. It puts a smile on my face every time I ride it.

@michaelwessel6969 2 года назад

Man really appreciate the great video!

@davestevens4263 Год назад

Great review, you guys are on point, as in sharp , smart , easy to understand.

@johnandjuli 2 года назад

Thanks for the video guys! I have two pre orders in that are due in September. Since I'm in Oregon with you, you may need to come down and ride my Vargs or invite me up to your trails! Can't wait!!

@emotobros 2 года назад

Oh we definitely will want to see what they’re all about!

@integra8502 2 года назад

A modified Sur Ron can cost up to 10K..so 12k seems Very reseanable !!

@emotobros 2 года назад

Totally agree, I don’t think their pricing is out of line, especially if it’s better than a 450.

@mendo_cat7075 2 года назад

Great video guys. Keep it up! I just got a controller from your latest drop. BTW.. I need that green hoodie...

@emotobros 2 года назад

Hopefully we have some more soon! Appreciate the support!

@pinaero 2 года назад

Extremely great breakdown. Thank you for such an excellent reaction video. A lot of your curiosities and reactions are in-line with how I felt. As someone who owned a Zero DSR for 3 years, and currently owns a Segway x160, I am watching the market for my next bike. Of course an MX bike like this won't have the best range but it's still something I would consider. Respect to you for professionally recognizing the "marketing verbiage" without calling them liars LOL.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Glad you liked it! And thanks for appreciating where I was coming from. Obviously they aren't outright lying but for those who are new to the industry, we think it is helpful to shed some light on what the specs actually mean.

@davidzelkowski9948 2 года назад

The expected delivery date on my bike is November 2022. I can't wait much longer. I'm turning 70 years old this year.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Have you gotten any email updates on it since ordering?

@davidzelkowski9948 2 года назад

@@emotobros Not a word.

@MotoAlias 2 года назад

@@davidzelkowski9948 you got anyone in your will already?

@rayheppner8391 2 года назад

Wow that is early what day did you order?

@bikeninja956 2 года назад

Great commentary here, your comments and questions are spot on. This is a seriously nice project 4 shur. A few things tho. Like you've mentioned, they're range numbers don't add up. Otherwise, I think they've mostly hit it on the head, The UI integration is going to be a massive game changer.....HOWEVER, notice how they don't have the magnesium battery case protected by the frame cradle. It looks like they're just using a bumper....I think this design choice will come back to bite them unfortunately, maybe not so much for MX but more so for enduro and trail riding where you need to hop over big fallen logs....

@emotobros 2 года назад

Glad you liked it! I did notice the same thing about the bash guard and really hope they're right. Magnesium is very strong but obviously it's hard to know it it'll be able to hold up to hard impacts till we see it. I thought it was interesting that they said Stark Varg stood for wolf, meaning king of the forrest, but didn't show any shots of it riding in the forrest on trails...

@bikeninja956 2 года назад

@@emotobros yeah, actually thinking about it, I wonder if they're even intending it to be used in trails.... "wolf" makes more sense, I heard "bull" at first...was like wtf..haha.

@falcosparverius1 2 года назад

If your split the charging circuit to enable multiple off board chargers, it is possible to charge even quicker.

@rayheppner8391 2 года назад

I am looking forward to this bike and am real curious about the range for PNW woods riding. The 6hr riding time must be with a light rider and include a lot of stops because a standard 450 won't go anywhere near 6hrs riding off road. I wish the pegs folded back instead of up, I can see some broken feet in woods riding applications especially with their claimed strongest pegs. The price is right in between the Honda, Kawaski and Ktm special editions which does not seem out of line, and looks like you save pdi & documentation, etc., no need to swap springs, not to mention all the other performance upgrades and guards that riders will add to an ICE bike. Would be nice to know how much the Stark subscription costs.

@Gr8tsoundz 2 года назад

I asked Stark about the power, they said it’s adjusted via software. So if you choose the 60hp and then later decided you wanted more power, you contact Stark to make the change via software most likely at a dealer..

@emotobros 2 года назад

Would you like mind forwarding the response to our email? Would love to read the exact wording. I would have expected the type of battery cells to be the source of the price difference and a software change to match what they can output.

@JoeMartinBikes 2 года назад

Good comments in the video. Doing some back of the napkin math, if the battery has 6000Wh of storage density and you said you use about 100Wh per mile on your bike and accounting for the fact that this bike weighs 100 pounds more so maybe say 150Wh per mile the bike should get 40 miles of range when trail riding pretty hard. Thoughts?

@emotobros 2 года назад

If you’re just accounting for the weight, maybe. But I think if you add in the fact that you’ll likely be using a minimum of twice the power of the SurRon, I was thinking it’d be closer to 250-300Wh/mi. Definitely hard to say. I guess if we knew the length of a typical MXGP style race we’d know the answer. They ride for 30minutes straight but they’d have to be averaging 60MPH to go 30 miles and they definitely aren’t averaging even close to that. I was thinking even an average of 30MPH would be generous, so 30 MPH for 30min would give you 15Mi. Granted those are pretty gnarly conditions so again, hard to say. That’s why we need data!

@recklessox7091 Год назад

I wish I could afford a stark varg. It's sad that all the tracks here in Minnesota closed because of noise.

@davidzelkowski9948 2 года назад

It was posted that the power increase is software only. I've got a deposit placed.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Oh man, that's an expensive software only option. Like they say though, better to have it and not need it.

@05rc51ryan 2 года назад

I hope to get mine by March 2023.

@danamarti2311 2 года назад

Truly immaculate

@CmdrTigerKing 2 года назад

is there after market chain blocks or anything similar that was advertised... I want flipping auto clicking chain block tensioners wtf...

@Zackattack94 2 года назад

A surron style bike would be awesome. The talaria looks good but still has a lot of similar parts to the surron that would need to be upgraded like suspension and wheels. The small class size bike surron/talaria are in is awesome. But using mtn bike parts scares me lol

@emotobros 2 года назад

Yeah I was really hoping the talaria would come in at around $7k and it’d have some of the stuff the surron should’ve came with (for more serious riders). The problem is that the bike gets really expensive when you have to upgrade parts and the old parts have little to no resale. For example, it’d probably only cost SurRon an extra $1000 to spec a better battery and controller and sell it that way, but the end customer it’s like $3k and you get barely anything for your old parts…

@MrNobody_1618 2 года назад

@@emotobros you are totally right that why I sold my sur ron. I was considering to upgrade it with New controlor and battery but when I've Seen the price and the fact you need also to improve the suspension and brake it's was like at least 8000$ and was not ready to spend such money because I will still be limited in term of range. Why sur ron dont upgrade their bike with 72v setup and better fork and suspension the motor and frame of sur ron is really great but all the other parts need to be uograded. I Hope I will have enough money tonne ready to spend almost 10 k in a sur ron.

@Adampage69 2 года назад

lets go

@bc4901 2 года назад

Oh hell yeah

@pinaero 2 года назад

My eyes are watching this video so intensely they are burning a hole in my screen!

@mxoudi 2 года назад

So if you go to your local track, can you plug this thing into a small genarator and get it recharged in 2 hours?

@emotobros 2 года назад

Assuming you have a 4kW generator then yes. Most commonly people have like a Honda2000 which still should charge it just not in 2 hours. Also, would be somewhat ironic to buy electric then have to burn gas to charge it 😂

@mxoudi 2 года назад

@@emotobros HAHA it is ironic when you put it that way. But seeing as there are no charging stations and I really want an electric bike I see no other way 😂 😂. Honestly i shouldn't burn through the entire battery at my level of riding but even something charging slow should help.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Yeah I’m with you. If the bike is truly better than gas bikes then no reason not to get it if you’re serious about racing!

@mxoudi 2 года назад

@@emotobros Agreed, I love the idea of just twisting a throttle and going with hardly any maintenance or noise. I get mine in December so I'll have a 4 month window of opportunity to see how others like it when the first wave of people get theirs incase I decide to cancel due to bad reviews. Hoping that there's no serious recall one year in.

@cossiedrifter 2 года назад

Apparently they got like 5000 pre-orders in a week or so. Really hope they have the manufacturing capacity to build all of them.

@emotobros 2 года назад

That’s awesome! Roughly $60,000,000+ in pre-orders is a great start and hopefully is enough for them to profit.

@cossiedrifter 2 года назад

@@emotobros They weren't expecting that many orders, so they have started building another factory.

@martinfoster5163 Год назад

This looks like a potentially awesome bike for professional motocross racers. For my casual, off-road riding (trails and enduro), I'm very happy with my Surron Storm Bee. Yes, it's heavy but I do get adequate range (3 hour of trail riding, I'd guess), fantastic speed and acceleration and when I drop it, and I've crashed it several times, nothing expensive breaks. The reason for its weight is the heavy duty components. Also, the battery is hot swappable and removable. I can upgrade from the 90v/48Ah battery that I have to the 104v/54Ah battery directly from Surron, when available. It gives about 10% greater range and speed. I've owned my Storm Bee for almost a year and it's fantastic. I don't feel I need to mod it much. Maybe just the battery upgrade for a bit more range one day. The Varg looks amazing but the lightness and speed comes at a high cost in money and vulnerability. I'll assume the battery weighs 30kg, so the rest of the bike is only 70kg. That's ultralight and I think highly susceptible to crash damage. Furthermore, it's not even out yet whereas some countries have been able to get the Storm Bee for a year or more.

@WildStyleWorks 2 года назад

befor the video was released it was july of 2022 delivery time

@VintageEngineRepairs 2 года назад

Looks lovely, and it will be the future, but not yet - the distance of what would be equal to 1 tank of fuel and then requiring 6 hours of charging? Yeah, no…

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

It'll be a different motor and controller unit. The 80bhp motor is mainly to increase range but the 60bhp motor will be pretty much all you need.

@paulhope3401 2 года назад

Its rumoured to be a software only upgrade.. Don't know real full truth but I can see that being a real possibility... one/two less different things to design, build and develop?

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

@@paulhope3401 if it's just a software thing, they'll have sacrificed efficiency on one of the two.

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

@@paulhope3401 I was drunk on Saturday so I ended up ordering one 😂

@paulhope3401 2 года назад

@@craigrobinson1234567 You got that price increase after 31/5 email too? Lol. Nice... I'm still really tempted. I saw on the interview with Starks CEO that the 80hp version is 100% just software, and so a future upgrade if you buy the base version. I'm thinking base 60hp, enduro 18" wheels, grey, footbrake and kickstand. What spec did you go for?

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

@@paulhope3401 full Mx spec in red but with a side stand as I want to make it road legal

@falcosparverius1 2 года назад

Being able to quickly hot swap the battery would be a plus.

@rodmoreno7843 2 года назад

Battery would be very expensive though and heavy

@larrydwyer8034 2 года назад

Why would you compare the Sur Ron and not the kTM Freeride? The Freeride is much more capable and similar to the Stark Varg.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Couple reason. The first is that we’ve built this entire channel around the SurRon, most of our followers are familiar with this bike so it made sense to us. Another reason is that I don’t feel comfortable comparing it to a bike I don’t own. Then we’d just be comparing marketing vs. marketing. Sorry for not making that more clear.

@Softopper1 2 года назад

E-Moto Bros Thanks for responding. I can understand that. Was just curious. Great job on the Video. I have two Freerides and Two Stark Vargs on order. I got in on the 1st day so I hope to see them this year. Thanks

@lboughto 2 года назад

I have a Freeride and two Segways X160/X260. Super excited to get the Varg (early Nov 2022). My Freeride get ~2hrs trail riding Mode 2 in Colorado Single Track. I highly doubt the Varg will get 3 times 6 hrs of trail riding at least on a mode that's safe/fun to ride. If my KTM E-XC got 15/20 miles more range and weighed 15/20 lbs less it would be my only bike. Until then I need my Beta 300RR/RE. Hoping Starks claims are true.

@falcosparverius1 2 года назад

6 hours at 2 mph or 65 mph? \

@jimic111154 2 года назад

With 80hp, why can't it charge itself?

@69HRC 2 года назад

Looks like great engineering but it doesn't look like crashing has been taken into account. That carbon upper frame I would be worried it may crack like a husky rear subframe that came out to one up KTM but failed after crashing. Also the rear suspension frame handel looks like great but could easily bend. The magnesium battery case couldn't have a protector over it as its part of the air cooling as well. Hard too put money down without more reviews of a prototype.

@emotobros 2 года назад

I noticed that a crash looks like it’d be extremely expensive considering the lack of modularity with the plastics.

@Logan-tf6nk 2 года назад

At 24:50 they show a distance range next to the time range and it is 178 kilometers

@emotobros 2 года назад

Nice catch! Surprising they’re claiming a 110mi range 🤯 and that’s at 67% charge.

@tristanmenut7981 2 года назад

@@emotobros I would be rather cautious about the range because we don't know if the values displayed are at full power and speed. Or if it's at moderate power and speed. Sorry if my english isnt as good as your, but I'm French. Have a good day / weekend :) ! Thank for the react, I was looking to make a choice between light bee or anythings else.

@JFred2 2 года назад

I know pros run bigger gas tanks for outdoor nationals so if it will do a full MXGP style moto then it would seem to be roughly equivalent

@emotobros 2 года назад

What is stock and how much bigger are the pros running? I was unaware they did this outside of enduro stuff. A 1.8 gallon tank (stock 450 sx-f size) has 128MJ of energy (on just regular octane so likely much more on race gas). Assuming 35% efficiency of gas engines, that’d be 44.8MJ of energy that is usable. If we look at the Varg’s 6kWh that’s roughly 21.6MJ, less than half of what is useable in a gas bike even assuming the electric bike is 100% efficient - which it is not. I guess our point is that something about the numbers don’t add up and we just wanted to mention that without too much math.

@emotobros Год назад

@@LuckyPause3d Generally speaking, every study I've managed to find shows that efficiency is inversely proportional to engine size. Basically, the smaller the engine the more efficient it'll be all else held equal. Of course there are other factors at play but I don't think it's a bad assumption to assume it is equal to a passenger car. Fuel useage per mile isn't an adequate measure of energy efficiency in this situation given the vastly different application of a car vs a dirtbike. Sure they may get similar MPG in their respective applications, but you aren't riding a 450 with the throttle at 5% gently accelerating like you would in a passenger car on the highway. The studies on dirt bike fuel useage I've seen show that for supermoto converted 450s you would generally see around 55mpg at 55mph on the free way which would be a more apt. comparison to a passenger vehicle application.

@emotobros Год назад

@@LuckyPause3d That's precisely what I said in my reply - "Fuel useage isn't an adsequate measure of energy efficiency...". We've collectively taken 2 years of thermodynamics courses - no confusion on engines and energy efficiency here. The amount of energy used (fuel used) in relation to power produced vs. heat waste defines the efficiency. MPG can be a way of measuring that though it's fairly poor for the reasons we both mentioned. There are numerous other factors - too many to discuss, which is why I used the verbiage "all else held equal". You were using those MPG figures in your original comment to relate to efficiency which is why I used them in mine. Freeway miles not being the same as trail/track is exactly my point as well. Wh vs realtime watt useage scales mostly linearly at low power but has an exponentially increased draw in power per watt expended to the wheel as is the nature of lithium technology. I was trying to make my case using idealistic figures for both gas and electric. As I've said in other comments, I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong - our entire company is based around the idea that electric is better and is the future after all. That being said, I see no way in which a new dirtbike company has figured out a way to make an electric bike that goes further than a gas bike at what is basically the same weight. That'd basically be saying that Stark has figured out something that none of the major billion+ dollar auto manufacturerers have figured out. I hope they're right!

@emotobros Год назад

@@LuckyPause3d I believe I wasn't clear about the statement that no manufacturer has done it before. What I mean by that is no manufacturer has made a equivalent weight EV of the same class that had better range - that's what this whole discussion is in relation to. We are talking about performance motorcycles after all - which I think this coonversation has strayed too far from. Bottom line is that professionals who make money from winning are going to ride what is fastest. This bike is being marketed as being the fastest AND having better range. That is the statement we are doubting. Sure you could strap another 70 lb battery to the back of the bike and go almost twice as far but I think that goes against the spirit of the argument here. In the same vein I could easily say well I can add a bigger fuel tank and go twice as far with only 10lbs more fuel and the bike will still perform almost identically. Again, that's not our point. The original comment was comparing an MXGP style bike to the Stark Varg saying the range would be equivalent - we just disagree. Beyond the fact that the actual battery in the FXE is 7.2kWH which is 17% larger than the Varg, you likely would never see even 50miles of range out of an FXE unless you were quite slowly motoring around a city. Most reports show less than 40 miles at 55mph. Beyond that, you have to remember as well, when electric bikes/vehicles get low on charge, they lose significant amounts of power, meaning you have to demand more and get less. The same can not be said for gas - where in fact the performance improves as you use more gas and the vehicle gets lighter. A Honda 450L for example, which weighs less than an FXE, can go nearly 100 miles at free way speed based on testing, not just the word of the manufacturer. So more than twice as far as the FXE, likely close to 2.5x that of Varg and never loses power until you are sitting on the side of the road. The point is not the efficiency, it's that fuel is SO MUCH more energy dense then lithium, that you will never get the same range to weight to range ratio as a gas bike. Remember the whole point of what we are saying is these weigh the same as a gas bike and claim they can go further. Lets look at the F150 gas version vs. the F150 lightning. Same body, same chasis, same wheels and tires. The Lightning weighs 1000lbs more than the gas version (for super heavy batteries) and gets 250mi less range compared to the gas version. The range to weight ratio is so skewed in the gas vehicles favor and sure in a car that doesn't matter. But remember, we are talking about dirt bikes here, weight is huge. Circling back, this is my point that no manufacturer is making a lighter electric vehicle that goes further than its gas counterpart - Stark included in my opinion.

@emotobros Год назад

@@LuckyPause3d This will be my last comment for now. I see your point, but again it is missing the spirit of the argument. We are comparing things that are in the same class MX bike vs. MX Bike, F150 vs F150. Comparing a Lucid (what is basically intentionally designed as the highest range sport sedan) to one of the heaviest luxury coupes ever made is not a valid comparison in anyway. I was responding to the original comment who claimed that MXGP riders MUST run an extended range fuel tank to complete an MXGP where the Stark can do it on one charge. Therefor the Stark is claiming more range than a stock 450 bike without the extended range tank. Your statement again somewhat proves that EV companies are inclined to mislead consumers about true range and make it look as good as possible. Them feeling the need to mislead about something as trivial as the capacity of their battery only stands to prove our point. I understand the freeway isn't a good comparison which is why I was confused why the FXE was brought into this - a bike that is sold with slick tires and marketed as a around town commuter when the original discussion was about dirtbikes. I then compared it to a honda 450L, which is meant to do the same sort of thing - mixed highway and city. Regardless, I haven't seen any range numbers on the FXE around town that were remotely close to the 100mi claimed range where there are countless examples of a 450L going 100 miles on a tank. I think we can both agree that a 450 race bike offroad is getting around 25-30mpg - call it 25. That would be around 45-50 miles of range or so depending on the exact model. The FXE, in comparison to the Varg, still has a bigger battery, much less power AND is optimized to be road ridden (which uses much less power than racing offroad) and is barely scraping 50-60 miles of mixed riding on Eco mode from what I've seen. With these numbers alone, I don't see how the Varg does 50 miles off road riding like it is advertised to be ridden - again I would love to be wrong. Regarding the Alta, again this is a fallacy in the main argument. Ride time means nothing as stated in the video. I've ridden well over 4 hours on my 3.3kWh SurRon battery and did an all day 8 hour ride on a 450. Time means nothing because of how vastly different peoples ride styles are. I also found it quite interesting that during their press ride day they didn't let people keep track of battery useage and range by giving everyone a display that wouldn't show capacity. I think it's comical that they claimed the range couldn't be looked at because the display was in beta mode. That is simply bs. I've designed and wrote the code for an entire app that monitors data on SurRons and it's very simple to display the battery voltage/percentage. Beyond that, they were charging the bikes after only 15 minute motos and was not letting any pro do a full 35min moto balls out. If they are so confident in the range claims, I don't understand why they wouldn't just shut everyone up and make a nonstop video of someone riding at MXGP pace until it dies. To be clear, I think the Varg is better than a 450 in everyway but one and that is the range. The ONLY thing I think is too good to be true is the range.

@MrNobody_1618 2 года назад

For it's worth every penny when you see that if you tuned a sur ron light bee with controlor upgrade battery new suspension and brake it's almost 10k it's sûre have less power and range than the Stark varg so 2 k more it's not overprice

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

Just ordered one. Loving the denialism. Can anyone let me know the capacity of a 450 tank and I'll quote the range caparison.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Denialism from who? Our entire channel and business is based around e motos. I thought this was a fairly objective overview

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

@@emotobros all of the comparisons are to the Sur-ron which is like comparing a Bentley to a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower. I've never seen the channel before so if you're legit, feel free to ask away and/or keep in touch and I'll give you info on my bike when it arrives. But they've opted for intuitive units rather than SI units for ease, avoid comparing the Sur-ron to this as the bike could potentially offer 2x the output Vs a cheap system due to anything from cell voltage drop to RMS of the motor etc. I'm still rewatching this video but yea, from an engineering perspective, you come across like you're trying to compare van Gogh with a kids art competition 😂

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

@@emotobros also... Not seeing electric surpass fuel in terms of range won't age well. Energy density in battery tech is currently on par with floppy disks atm.

@emotobros 2 года назад

@@craigrobinson1234567 I hear what you're saying about the comparisons, but I was simply comparing the range, power, weight and suspension. Something that'd be totally valid to do even between a luxury sport car and a family sedan. Relating things to the most common products makes it easiest for the majority of people to understand. There wasn't any point where I even said they're competitors - they're quite obviously in different leagues when one is 3x the price of the other. Most our content is SurRon related so we figured it'd be the most apt comparison for those who regularly view our channel. I'd love to read some studies you've seen on energy density and battery tech as far as the future goes. I can't possibly see what elements you'd use to create a big enough electronegativity difference that a 1lb battery would ever have the same energy density as 1lb of fuel while being safe for the everyday consumer/moto application. Currently, the energy density of fuel is about 100-150x that of the most dense lithium ion batteries. Even solid state batteries wouldn't come close to this. The main issue is that sure, you could get more range out of electric than gas, but it comes at the extreme sacrafice of greatly increased mass. For example, and extra 10lbs of fuel could double your range on a gas bike. On the Varg, an extra 10lbs of cells would get you ~15% more range and that's if there was even room for more cells -- which there didn't seem to be. In a daily commuter (car or motorcycle) maybe the added weight doesn't matter too much, but on a high performance race bike, 10lbs is very significant. Most the major players in battery tech self admitedly report that the major gains in battery tech are going to come in the form of charge time rather than capacity gains. With our whole brand being electric, I would love nothing more than to be wrong about what I just said!

@craigrobinson1234567 2 года назад

@@emotobros a Tesla gets 2x the range per kWh Vs a taycan so there's a fair bit to chemistry. You can have X kWh but if the voltage crashes under load, you might only be able to access 60% of the capacity. I'm too drunk to read all of your response but... Brap! 😂 Charging is technically irrelevant as if a ride uses X, as long as you can recharge faster than fatigue, you're winning. As a dad however, it could be crap and as long as it can charge off solar, it's still a win.

@LarryRichelli 2 года назад

About the same price as a maxed out Sur Ron if you change forks, shocks, wheels, tires, bars, brakes, battery, controller all at retail of course. We are not all the E-Moto Bros:)

@emotobros 2 года назад

Very true! The SurRon has such a weird little niche that I don’t think a full size bike can replace. Something about how easy it is to take it out is great.

@tbbainter777 2 года назад

It is a great deal. For the power it can unleash, it has alot of power that has to basically be tamed by the software. It is a real race built bike w quality suspension. Def blows away my alta redline , this seriously has power. It can easily compete w my 450f. Alot less maintenance.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Absolutely. I think the price is completely justified for what you’re getting.

@jeffreywalsh817 2 года назад

Talaria Sting next?

@emotobros 2 года назад

That's the plan! Unfortunately they don't have a great marketing video that I've found but we still plan to do something similar.

@MHF_H 2 года назад

easy way to measure its power, compare that bike to the current E motocross like sur ron storm bee, alta, ktm e freeride

@snowingpython8196 2 года назад

Or a dyno..that's usually the best way to measure a bikes power 🤣

@MHF_H 2 года назад

@@snowingpython8196 the bike still nowhere to be found, just compare the specs from its paper to the alta or storm bee or ktm freeride, so you could measure the actual torque per weight, distance, and others

@that_guy6116 2 года назад

13:10 batteries will become far more energy dense and have so much more capacity in the future

@emotobros 2 года назад

I'll believe it when I see it I suppose. With current technology I don't see how we could make any significant leaps.

@that_guy6116 2 года назад

@@emotobros yeah, we are definitely close to the limit of current chemistry and technology but there is lots of investment in the research and development of new battery tech which will change the world but also make my ebike faster 😆

@emotobros 2 года назад

@@that_guy6116 We sure hope so!

@MrNobody_1618 2 года назад

@@emotobros 4680 Tesla cells seem to be the way to go. Just wonder how great they can improve range on a bike !

@kamikazi5144 2 года назад

The bike seems dope but honestly the marketing seems a little bit tacky and they're hiding some info

@snowingpython8196 2 года назад

I hear this a lot and I get confused why and I think its people who haven't done a lot of research, then I say that and the other would flip saying "YoU dOnT know wHaT IVe DoNe" okay I'm not saying it in a mean way just they do give plenty of info the only reason you should feel they don't is if you haven't done as much research

@kamikazi5144 2 года назад

@@snowingpython8196 Lack of info is not necessarily the only problem, the marketing is a little bit weird imo

@kamikazi5144 2 года назад

@@snowingpython8196 cool bike nonetheless

@snowingpython8196 2 года назад

@@kamikazi5144 oh I also hear thay and how? If anything they had some of the best presentation in awhile and I see nothimg wrong with the marketing other then they can be lying but no one has proof for that, again if anything in a interview Anton said they did make one mistake in the numbers in the aspect where it'll actually be BETTER then their numbers say

@2daHLOo 2 года назад

rider is Josh Hill #75 total legit rider. Rode for ALta for a bit so he knows what an electric bike can do.

@DeltaCmndrElite 2 года назад

the 3.3kw charging is based on 240v outlets which is standard for most of Europe with a standard 13a outlet

@emotobros 2 года назад

I figured as much. I’d be curious what it actually draws. With inefficiencies it seems like it may pull closer to 3.7kW which in that case would it be drawing too much for a standard outlet?

@DeltaCmndrElite 2 года назад

@@emotobros I think the 3.3kw will be from the wall so probably be around 3kw into battery which would work out to around the 2hr charge

@emotobros 2 года назад

@@DeltaCmndrElite Well that'd be great if it can do that! I know the US sockets are a bit different so I'll be curious about the solution for that.

@jeanrenaut196 2 года назад

@@DeltaCmndrElite In France, the sockets are 220/240 Volts and to charge my KTM Freeride E-XC of 3.9KW it takes 135 minutes on a standard 16A electrical socket so for Europe it is feasible for a 6Kw in a little more 2 hours but I would like to see the size and weight of the charger. That of the KTM is huge weighs 8Kg and does not fit in a bag

@DeltaCmndrElite 2 года назад

@@jeanrenaut196 yeah if have a 16a circuit installed can go to 4kw

@shredmas 2 года назад

What's holding back say a AMA supercross effort from a company like this is the ridiculous AMA homologation rules. Yamaha had a hard time introducing four strokes into MX competition. The YZ400 with Doug Henry riding it had to get a special limited waiver. Even now only KTM 2 strokes all allowed, Maybe Yamaha

@emotobros 2 года назад

Hmm I wasn't aware of this. What allowed a company like Gas Gas to enter so quickly or was there more going on behind the scenes?

@shredmas 2 года назад

@@emotobros Joel Smets I believe did two seasons of professional Enduro Cross. He was in the 30 plus pro class he placed in the top three as I remember. Then you saw Josh Hill compete in the Red Bull straight rhythm on the Alta. But to be honest 99% of the people that buy this bike will be either trail riding practicing on tracks or racing at the local level even if it is pro racing it's not going to be on the highest national level. As far as them field in a team here's what the AMA says Read single cylinder engine only. Gas Gas is a KTM with different color and style plastic. "Homologation of Motorcycles Only motorcycles homologated by AMA may be used in competition. AMA will only accept applications for homologation from motorcycle manufacturers or their distributors. a. Once a motorcycle has been homologated, it may be used until such time that the homologated motorcycle no longer complies with the technical rules or a maximum of five years. b. Compliance with homologation requirements will not guarantee an AMA homologation. The homologation may be withheld or withdrawn for a just cause that the AMA and the FIM deems in the best interest of the sport. c. Minimum quantities that must be available through U.S. dealers: All Manufacturers - 400 units per model. d. Importation quantity deadlines: 1. Minimum 200 units March 1st of the current season. 2. Minimum 400 units June 1st of the current season. 7 e. After June 1st, manufacturers must maintain availability of models homologated for the current season to any AMA prolicensed motocross competitor until August 1st of the current season. This applies unless the manufacturer can supply documented proof that the units imported to the U.S. as the minimum requirement were sold to North American customers before June 1st of the current season. U.S. distributor team motorcycles are counted as part of the required units up to a maximum of eight units. Availability requirements do not apply on models homologated in previous seasons. f. The homologation procedure and information are available from AMA. 1.2 Engines a. Engines are restricted to a single cylinder. b. Engine Displacement Measurement Calculation. 1. Engine displacement shall be recorded in cubic centimeters. 2. Displacement = B² (0.7854) HX B= Cylinder bore; H= Stroke; X= Number of cylinders (bore x bore x 0.7854 x stroke x number of cylinders)"

@mre741 2 года назад

They did it wrong.. I feel.. .. Set out to build the most powerful bike in the market.. so why give it low power modes and try to boast range? It's to try to money grab ! The first bike they built was the wrong one.. if they wanted to show off there capabilities they should have built a bike more focused on range .. SurRon like.. because it gets it into the hands of more people! No one needs a track bike that's a job in a sense.. but a proper SurRon with range .. even a person that has no reason to be around a bike will want to give it a try

@emotobros 2 года назад

I think there can be room for both though you rarely see gas bikes boasting range numbers as it isn’t really a concern. I agree that they chose the most saturated dirt bike market to start in (MX) which as they say, they were trying to stir things up. I’m with you though, I wish they would’ve made something in the 160lb to 170lb range. You nailed it that someone who’s never ridden isn’t going to look at the Varg and think to themselves that it’d make a good first bike…

@BenWilson24 2 года назад

You should watch the gypsy tales interview where the CEO talks about the philosophy of why the designed what they did. The point was to outperform every race bike to make people want the bike to win races, not to complete the Dakar rally without a pit stop

@emotobros 2 года назад

Watched the whole thing! I definitely agree that’s what their goal was but at what cost? A normal day at the track would be practice, 2 qualis and 2 motos. Assuming you need one battery for practice, 1 battery for qualis and a battery for each 30min moto, that gets really expensive. Beyond that they’re not hot swappable. I just found the pitch a little disingenuous seeing how much it’d actually cost to race one of these.

@BenWilson24 2 года назад

@@emotobros the same cost tesla weighed out. They weren't going to make a mediocre product just to get more range. It has to be the bike people see outperforming the competition, not some compromise to go electric or it won't get widespread adoption. The normal day you described at the track is really just pros only - most riders are getting maybe a 10 min practice and two 10-15 min motos on race day and they're going nowhere near the pace of an mxgp rider. Most riders can't even last a 20 min moto at their own race pace, so as a track bike, I expect it to be more than enough. Also, running a lighter bike may mean you have to charge more often, but it's more energy efficient, so you'll use less energy in the end, saving money. On top of that, if the battery is designed to last about as long as a 450 tank, fewer joules of energy are actually required to be stored in the battery than in the gas fuel (much less than half) because of the efficiency of the motor compared to a gas bike. Even charging the batteries at the track with a gas generator would cost less than filling the 450 gas tank even if you were running the cheap gas you've got in the generator

@LarryRichelli 2 года назад

@@emotobros Unless a guy had a lot of money and was planning to put supermoto wheels on it like the surronster did.

@Ddoo614 Год назад

Only a racing pro. Should be paying 12K for a dirt only motorcycle. With the kits available now 7K you can put together your own silent machine.

@emotobros Год назад

Yep, 12k is hard to justify for most hobbyist!

@survivalishardstaystorng Год назад

I don't think you understand why they're listing certain things in certain ways 6 hours runtime they can't exactly tell you range here's why you have variables that come into play those variables are the weight of the rider the wind resistance of that Rider the wind direction and the direction you're going the day of and elevation Terrain which is the friction against the tires all of that comes into play so that's why they labeled it 6 hours run time that gives you your Baseline you're welcome

@emotobros Год назад

Precisely our point! They can't measure these things in the way they've listed therefor they shouldn't be advertised as such. 6 hours certainly isn't a baseline - it's best case scenario. As we mention in the video they should've got 10 different riders to all go and ride different terrains together and take the average Wh/Mi and list an efficiency number which would be FAR more accurate.

@ja-no6fx 2 года назад

The b In bhp doesn't stand for base bro

@emotobros 2 года назад

It just says HP in the specs not bhp. My point was that it says 'Base specs' but they weren't showing the HP ratings of the base model.

@ja-no6fx 2 года назад

I was just correcting you when you said base horsepower, not sure if u meant to say that or not.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Yes, base horsepower as in the horse power of the base model that they offer rather than the ‘alpha’ horsepower

@joaquinvandenanker8054 2 года назад

Great video! But actually fully charged batteries do weigh more a pretty big amount actually!

@emotobros 2 года назад

Hahah if by big you mean in the range of 1x10^-9kg of difference or so then yes. The amount a batteries weight changed between full charge and full discharge is is less than the amount of weight you lose each time you exhale.

@jacobevans18 2 года назад

drop my $300 phone. brick my $12k bike.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Hopefully there is some way to run the bike without the phone!

@chrissinclair8705 Год назад

Oh no, I lost my phone! I'll just ride to the store and get a new one...Oh...Oh dear.

@emotobros Год назад

😂😂

@kamikazi5144 2 года назад

Ride modes: More than 100 lmao weird flex but ok

@jandrews377 2 года назад

I think you are unnecessarily getting hung up on range/runtime. It says its runtime is compariable to a bike with a full tank of gas. Obviously, depending on how you ride, will affect how long a tank of gas would last. 6hrs light trail or 1hour MX sounds about right to me, for a tank of gas. If I am our riding a long-side a gas bike, it will probably run out before I do. Let's change the pychology to 'tank of gas', makes it much easier to wrap our heads around.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Maybe so. I just feel that range is by far the one thing holding electric bikes back and manufacturers know that and like to be very liberal with their numbers. My goal was to help someone maybe too naive to realize something about the numbers doesn’t quite add up.

@giomes3671 2 года назад

electric will be on top eventually. where there's a problem there's a solution.

@emotobros 2 года назад

Someone will figure it out!

@abi4510 2 года назад

how do you even know its not true about the range. at the point you watched this you have no clue what technology they are using.

@emotobros 2 года назад

We run a business in this industry so we are familiar with what’s out there. Stark didn’t invent some battery tech that any of the major EV manufacturers or formula E haven’t looked into and just based on that the claims seem high. We’d love nothing more than to be wrong!

@EssPhour 2 года назад

Per their website, Delivery has been pushed back yet again now to July 2023, I wouldn't hold my breath or waste my time studying this bike, their specs wreak of hype. Like mentioning the wet weight of the bike(fully charged), that just shows how stupid they thing their customers will be. The 80HP? that's a peak number, when dealing with EV's those who are honest list Peak and Nominal, Peak is always a max power output, but it has limits, like it is only available below a certain RPM, and it is always limited as to how long you can use peak HP, It is more like a boost feature available for seconds but then needs a cool down period. So this is a bike that weighs as much as a 450 and it has a consistent usable 40hp. I am excited about EV bikes, but this is more marketing hype than deliveable product,....They can prove me wrong, but that's over a year out from now, and maybe 2 years...3 years?...in 3 years of course there will be better technology out there.

@federico297 2 года назад

The delivery date on the website is the date you receive the bike if you order one now. I ordered it back in December and mine is going to be delivered at the end of November 2022 (right now, the delivery dates has been pushed back 1 month from the original previsions, mine was initially going to be ready at the beginning of November)

@EssPhour 2 года назад

@@federico297 That is actually great to hear, that would make for a nice early Christmas gift. I wonder how many people are ahead of you? Is your pricing locked in or do they reserve the right to raise the price?

@federico297 2 года назад

@@EssPhour i would like to know, i think there are about 1500 people before me (i ordered the bike on the second day the preorders were open). The price is locked, starting yesterday they raised the price by 1000€ for the new orders

@EssPhour 2 года назад

@@federico297 Best of luck, being in Europe should help with deliveries.