RE: 8-F Spikes Bismuth had mentioned in his analysis that if performed optimally, building momentum and sliding underneath is the best strat. It is true that the timing left on the P-switch makes a difference. I think that in Kuto's case, getting that jump over the rotodisc allowed ample time to charge up and make it just in time for the conveyor to start moving as he hits the ground. IMO, I still think that, on average, most incremental frames are gained/lost based on how we navigate past the remaining rotodiscs in the first room after pulling off the 2-frame jump, especially considering how awkward the angles to jump from can be in their respective positions. Huge congrats to him once again. Glad I got to tune in for a lot of that grind and his dedication is nothing short of inspiring.
One would think that the farther you slide, the quicker you will come out on the other side. The P-switch time is fixed and doesn't change to the best of my knowledge, so simply shortening the time you are idle on the conveyer after the P-switch would save time. Basically, if you slide, you don't have to ride the whole conveyer, just most of it.
6:25 "I've never really used a keyboard, so I don't know exactly how it works" Fantastic quote out of context, haha :) Great video and congrats to Kuto!
5:40 Bismuth talks about this in his video on your 10:44 record, and shows a comparison. Saving time or not depends on exactly how much time is left on the P switch, and it's only a few frames difference either way. It does look cooler though :)
Congrats Kuto, well deserved, what a grind it’s been. Kuto now has two first place positions on the leaderboards! Let’s go for Australia!!! “And by the way, some ra-- “new guy”, is right on his tail!” Never to be known as "some ra----- new guy" again :D
The sole reason I learned to play kaizo SMW on keyboard was accidental directional inputs. That is definitely the benefit to keyboard/hitbox over controller.
An accidental up press ruined a MK2 WR run for me. It was still WR, but I missed a special attack that costed me 2 seconds. I was lucky to still get WR, but I could have killed the cat. And the controller I was using was a PS3 one, so I can imagine how worse it can be with a smaller controller.
Not a speedrunner but from my experience you get an unprecedented level of freedom from input mistakes using a keyboard. However, specifically doing two directional inputs at once (diagonal) is very finnicky. For example doing something like a hadouken input is much, much harder than on a gamepad. Not even harder its more that doing it on a gamepad feels natural and intuitive but doing it on a keyboard you have to be very deliberate with your inputs. The second issue you run into is with modern games and movement since on controllers and specifically analogue sticks the keyboard can't hit the fractional range of movement to do something like slow walk. Hell I say modern games but even playing something like mario 64 will show a perfect example of the flaws on keyboards.
@@doublejesusful i meant that you said pressing d+r on controller happens easily and i meant that pressing l+r on keyboard happens easily, which if its banned will result in an input of nothing
You'd think there would need to be a separate category for keyboard vs. controller. Not to diminish the accomplishment but in general there are certain things/inputs that would be possible using a keyboard that would be more difficult on controller, and vise versa, I would assume.
It’s up to each community to decide, but for smb3 they’ve decided that unless you do something on a keyboard that you physically can’t do on an original controller, it’s allowed.
I have a hard time accepting keyboard times for retro consoles. The record is what it is but I'm more impressed when it's on the original controller. idc if it's a boomer take.
I also do not consider keyboard records to be official, but they seem to be accepted for whatever reason. Then again i find the "click track" method to be cheating, so it is all debatable. Really great runs regardless, congrats to everyone keeping speedrunning alive.
Yeah, for me, as someone who grew up with games like this, the most satisfying elements of watching a speedrun are (a) the runner’s facial reaction during the run and (b) the input on original hardware.
@@JakeRazorClawson Yeah I don't get it. It should at least be a separate category. Like, the original hardware category and then a category for keyboards and emulators. Seeing someone get an NES record on a modern pro-gaming keyboard just feels dirty to me
The part where you finish bowser with fireballs seems like it could be made faster if you use the "rolling" technique from NES Tetris. You can get very fast button presses by using multiple fingers pressing the back of the controller.
You’re welcome to think that, but the moderators of the Mario 3-community have decided that playing on non original hardware with non original controllers is fine as long as it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage. Emulator with keyboard is not considered unfair advantage, it’s just preference. Also, with original hardware and controllers becoming increasingly more expensive, it would discourage many players from trying if they can’t use their computer or Switch for world record attempts.
It obviously gives an unfair advantage. A very small one but everything matters in anything that is highly competitive. Why not just allow any controller then if original hardware is difficult to get?
@@lightfeather9953How is it obvious when the moderators of the Mario 3-speedrunning community (and mitch himself) have decided that it’s perfectly okay to play on an emulator with keyboard…
I DONT CARE EVEN IF IS THE GOAT SAYING IT; NES USES A CONTROLER AND THATS IT. THE REST SHOULD BE OTHER CATEGORY. whats next? neuralink perfect inpits at will? man the game is classic respect it using the original intended way of playing it@@mncdssctn9110
Keyboard use is janky because the arrow keys are on the wrong side and the ergonomics of keeping your hands over a relatively flat surface the whole run is cray.
Look at the video showing the keyboard. Runner has movement controls on left side (using what looks like A and D to turn left and right) and actions on the right (left arrow = run/shoot, right arrow = jump). It doesn't really matter if the physical keys are "on the wrong side" if you remap them anyway.
2:00 the reason why Kuto doesn't go for the tail swipe is because it's too risky with the four different patterns the boomerang bro can give: immediate backwards, delayed backwards, immediate forwards, and delayed forwards. If it moves backwards, you have to repress B late, and if it moves forwards, you have to repress B early. Because of the leaf grab from earlier, you can't reilably control the boomerang bro's pattern, so Kuto does the safe strat and jumps over it.
6:05 I think I can inform you that that is not possible. As an emulator runner, I've only pressed Up when necessary; or maybe most of the keyboard runners.
FINALLY somebody like mitch points out those accidental up presses with the D-pad,i had it sooo many times that if i want to press up like whem climing a rope accidentally do press right at certain moments,or sometimes when i want to walk down the stairs wich are close to the edge,i sometimes press left or right instead thus falling into a pitch instead, Especially the D-pad from the nes dogbone controller feels very stiff,however some after market thirt party snes controllers do veel very soft sothat if you whether press up or down etc,,, it will unsupposedly press more buttons, But using those arrow keys on a pc keyboard should not be a problem aslong those arrow keys are normal sizes with space between those arrow keys and other buttons,many laptops do have a keyboard were you cannot blindly feel were those arrow keys are,thus making it a pain in the ass to play emulated nes games or general pc games on it,ouch.
All great competitor never want to hold a record. They want they prowess to be surpass and respect the hard work that the next generation have put it to surpasse them
5:53 I haven't exactly done speedruns on a keyboard, but, I have used one for many, many games, and, unless your finger slips, you have to physically press the up button to look up Misinputs are still possible, just a lot harder when all the directions are their own buttons Edit: said controller instead of keyboard 😅, fixed
The thing I love about speedrunning is how healthy the competition is. I'm sure there's some assholes out there, but when someone gives out a bounty for having their record broken, that shows that it really is more about the game and the sport than the titles.
So, I guess you know more about the game and what’s more precise and fast than the moderators of the Mario 3-speedrunning community who knows the game inside and out and have studied the game down to the last line of code… If they have decided that keyboard doesn’t offer an unfair advantage, I’m not gonna argue with that. If there was such an unfair advantage to using keyboard, why aren’t more people doing it? Kuto is the only person out of the top 10 runners who uses a keyboard. The other 9 plays on controller. And it’s not because they feel like the game should be played on controller, it’s just because they prefer it and knows that keyboard doesn’t give you an advantage.
The experts decided and proven long ago that keyboards do not have any advantage over standard NES controllers. You are not an expert. You have never studied the ins and outs of this game. You don't even run this game. Opinion invalidated. Facts don't care about your feelings.
I know the rules allow for it but I heavily dislike keyboard play. Emulator is fine, but keyboards can be made and customized to be so much more precise and easy to play on that it makes me wonder why not just make custom controllers that don't technically break rules but make the game easier?
To elaborate, keyboards allow you to choose activation distance on the keys, how much resistance there is, you have fingers dedicated to each one, and it is 100% a situation where spending more money gives you an advantage. Given that these old games were designed for controllers, it really feels like the competition can only be fair if using a controller is standardized.
@@Accrovideogamesit's pretty hard to master as well, unless you've never played it with a controller before I expect it's really unnatural to play SMB on a keyboard
I imagine the keyboard users are using mechanical switches for their keys (most gamers have mechanical keyboards) so they're very tactile it would be kind of difficult to accidentally press one not to say that it doesn't happen but it would be a lot less frequent than accidentally pressing up on the Nintendo d-pad. I'm watching this on my phone but it definitely looks like it's a gaming keyboard with all the RGB on it; I think it's a Logitech.
@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her what are the odds of you hitting the up button and over the 2 frame window of you overlapping a door? It's like a 0.001% chance
@@Falkite A chance is still something. It was enough for this uploader, & other commenters, to have lost some great runs. Then of course there's other games where it matters even more, like tournament fighters.
The D-pad on an original NES controller is one piece and uses a ball-type joint as a mid axis pivot. You can actually accidentally press up or down just by putting enough uneven pressure while pressing the right or left buttons. Keyboards have their own separate buttons for up. Down, left and right. Though it happens it's still harder to accidentally press up or down while running forward.
@@Falkite yeah, no shit... he asked why some of the best speed runners use a keyboard instead of the controller so I gave him the answer. Not all of us are perfect button pushers like yourself.
That's BS. I've done it before, many times. And it's not about hitting them both simultaneously. It's about putting too much pressure one way or the other. It can be an issue especially to those with larger fingers. Have you ever played with an NES controller?
Very late to this discussion, but I imagine keyboard does remove the chance of accidental up/down inputs, provided your fingers aren't moving all over the place and the keys aren't too sensitive. In the FGC, keyboard or similar control schemes also offer SODC (Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Directions) which allow for left+right or up+down to be input simultaneously, which can lead to some unintended properties in older games that don't expect the simultaneous inputs - I assume that property also holds in something like SMB3
Loved hearing his thoughts on keyboard vs controller, as brief as they were. As he wonders, I think it's far less likely for a keyboard player to hit the wrong input in error. I also think it's "easier", or faster, for keyboard players to switch between L & R inputs on the D pad. Not to diminish anyone's achievements (Niftski, etc) but I do tend to give extra credit to those runners who use the original hardware.
you do realise there is L+R cancelling on emulator so the "Faster L And R Inputs" are much harder to do then on controller where you can just do fast thumb movement to get them and not worry about L+R cancelling by being too fast
@@Kurtangle2so you're admitting that there are pros and cons. It's like saying steroids have side effects so pro athletes should be allowed to use them.
In my opinion, once someone is using a keyboard the game is ruined for me. As you mentioned with pressing up, there are differences in handling a keyboard, and while that may not seem like that much of a difference, it might be a huge advantage to a specific user who would otherwise never have obtained the record. It's like changing a race from driving a car with a regular gear shifter to one with paddles, or vice versa.
I kind of agree with this. I’m not sure if it’s a popular opinion cause I got dog piled for asking if keyboard vs controller was a separate category once lol
@@_flex5k But what feels unnatural to you may be an advantage to someone who has a natural feel for it. It's like how fast can an individual type with a QWERTY keyboard versus one with a different layout. Different layouts do improve overall speed, but will obviously cause a slowdown for someone not trained with the layout regardless of overall efficiency. Most of the people I see defending keyboards do so based on cost of obtaining original equipment, but to me if someone wants to speedrun at the WR level, then they should be willing to invest that cost.
Keyboard has its own disadvantages. I can't speak for smb3 but in smb1 fast accels and other tricks are much easier on controller. Not to mention that emulator input lag is very annoying. For me it's a matter of preference. Besides, there's a limited amount of original nes' and controllers.
there must be separate categories for original controler and keyboard, its obvious the advantage keyboard has. also.....original nes dosent uses keyboard
@@Falkite Keyboards use separated keys, so pressure on one key can't accidentally transfer to another. D-pads are connected by plastic so force CAN transfer through. Keyboards have an advantage in this respect.
@@while.coyote I hate this point. The chance of hitting D+R/U+R on controller is very small. Even if you do hit D+R/U+R it probably wouldn't even affect the run. This point is so overused just because mitch brought it up, I'd like to hear more arguments than just this one over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
@@Falkite The buttons are in the exact same spot/size? Dude... Do you pick up your keyboard & type on it with your thumbs? & use some giant Nintendo controller with the d-pad & buttons swapped or something? OMG! 😆😆😆
As long as you don’t do anything on a keyboard that you can’t physically do on a controller, the community (the runners and the admins who knows every nook and cranny of the game) have decided that keyboard is perfectly okay. It’s very rare that speedrun communities bans certain controllers or emulator just for the sake of it not being original. As long as it doesn’t offer an unfair advantage, it’s allowed.
Simply because the community have decided that it doesn’t offer an advantage. It’s very rare that any speedrunning community bans non-original hardware just for the sake of it not being original. When a certain controller or emulator is banned it’s because it’s considered to give an advantage.
@@mncdssctn9110 Huh… I mean I guess that makes sense. I would just think that the community would want consistency. The only time I’ve tried playing retro games with a keyboard was back in the 90s and it was…. not easy.
There’s no reason for requiring everybody to use the same controller or hardware. The only thing that matters is if somebody uses something that gives unfair advantage. All speedrunning communities makes their own rules about when something is considered an advantage, and the SMB3-moderators who knows the game inside and out have decided that as long as you disable inputs that can’t be done on controller (left+right inputs at the same time for instance) you can use a keyboard since it offers no advantage, it’s just preference. Also, with original hardware and controllers becoming more expensive and rare, it would make it harder for everyone if you couldn’t use an emulator or a Switch, or a replica controller.
Out of the top 11 runs, only Kuto uses an emulator. There is no advantage whatsoever. The majority of players use controller. It's all down to preference. If keyboard truly had an advantage it would've been either separated, banned, or overly used by the community.
