Real Life Impossible Turn! Engine Out on Takeoff in Cessna 210 - InTheHangar 

Dan and Christy, thank you so much for having me on the episode. It was a lot of fun. One thing I misspoke about. I bought the aircraft in 2020 not 2000.

I said it on Ed's RU-vid video in the comments: I'd fly with him any time...the question of whether or not to turn back, regardless of altitude is something that can only experienced. Making a choice to go for the field to the left, then seeing the threshold and reassessing; the deliberate push over(s) to keep the aircraft flying are the real sign of awareness of the situation and (excellent) primal decision making. It's a great story that needs telling, and retelling over and over...

I remember seeing Edward - near the time - dealing with the engine failure and he was a good aviator that day, saved himself and the plane, lots of skill I'd say as it would be very easy for a.n.other to get such badly wrong. Okay there were a couple of errors, but they weren't fully realised and they were rectified quickly by quick thinking, reactions and training kicking in👍😊 I've met some pilots who've said to me "we are good to go it's just been serviced", at which point I'm thinking "do I want to fly with this guy?" Whilst saying "I think we will give it another check round". No matter that a mechanic is brilliant and done a good job, sods law states something that will go wrong. I've seen it happen on several aircraft and indeed cars, trucks and motorcycles, the former and latter such can be extra dangerous. It was good to hear you guys say that you're hyper alert after servicing and engine work etc, so many pilots seem lulled into a false sense of security at those times😲😲🙄🙄 One instructor my dad had, used to drive him almost to distraction, virtually every first take off with him, 300-500' "fire in the engine, engine out, what are you going to do now". The extra stress and workload that causes, stands the student in good stead. My dad has had two engine failures, both due to maintenance "issues", he saved the plane, himself and the px both times - thank God. BTW I think someone was watching out for Edward too 😇😇😇👍 Thanks for sharing guys👍😊

Pulling the prop knob full aft (assuming you can't feather) will definitely improve glide. ABS instructors often demo this on the "impossible turn" flight. Power to idle, trim to best glide, and then pull the prop back. You can actually feel the a/c accelerate. Retrim to best glide and you are now descending flatter, with more potential emergency fields (even a runway) in range. In my A36, we determined that 800' AGL was the minimum return to runway altitude in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. Below 800' you were landing somewhere else. That said, the only inflight engine failure I had was at 9000' over Danbury Connecticut. If anything, I had too many options. Once trimmed correctly with the prop full aft and circling over the airport (far below and notified of the engine out), I got involved in diagnosing the problem. Fuel? Mixture? Mags? No change. That's when the windmilling prop got the engine relit. I climbed back up to altitude, canceled my impromptu visit to Danbury and continued on to my destination a little bit down the road in western Massachusetts. Not a great decision. On those last miles the engine quit twice more, and then, as before, restarted after losing a thousand feet or so. My flight was sinusoidal. Level, down, restart, up, repeat. Turned out that when I landed at BAF (home base, car in the hangar and a good mechanic) I had one functional cylinder out of six. Altitude was money in the bank. But Danbury would have been a lot smarter.

That was NOT a 180 degree turn back to the runway, he turned back to an intersecting runway. BIG difference.

Great video. I saw Ed’s video and was amazed at how he handled it. So glad you were able to interview him to get the back story.

Excellent episode Dan and Christy thank you. This was a great topic and story. I really appreciate the content you all continue to produce. I hope with sharing stories like this it will help save someone's life. You all are awesome, keep up the excellent work. Safe sky's. 🤘🇺🇸🛩️

I think this is a great video. I think I may be a couple of videos behind on Ed's channel, but I'm glad to see his airplane restored and back up and flying. Furthermore, I'm glad he wasn't financially inconvenienced over this. It was great to see him I love the repartee between Christy and Dan, it's fun to watch. I wanted to say something else, but I had a phone call I needed to take and I forgot what it was. But, I think this was one of your better shows, and I'm really thankful that Ed was willing to come on and talk about his experience. Thanks!

Each engine out is unique. Knowing your airplane is the deciding factor for people that are going to attempt it. If you don’t feel the airplane is an extension of yourself and rather you are along for the ride; I would not execute the “impossible turn”.

The spinning disc thing is accurate. Twin engine pilots are supposed to feather the prop on an engine out to reduce drag from the dead engine. His preplanning saved his life and the airplane. He planned for a left turn, executed, maintained airspeed... In short did it all right. I wonder about putting the gear down but considering what little time I have in a retractable gear aircraft, 18.2 hours, I think I'd put the gear down too.

Have a plan. Practiced plan always. No BS.

Great to see Ed again. What a great story!

Great video, I really enjoyed this episode. I took a few things away from this that I will remember to implement and practice, Thank you.

The spinning prop issue is simple math. It takes a lot more energy to spin a motor than to not spin a motor. That energy is better used for extending your gliding distance.

Yeah I watch Ed's channel, been watching it for quite some time now, cuz I love the 210, cuz I'm a big guy too and, he did a great job getting that plane landed safely, good job Ed!

Hello from Minnesota! Really outstanding job!!

An amazing story, smart actions and the luck of the draw. STOL kits should come standard on all planes in GA. That would drastically reduce incidents and deaths in GA. Especially on take offs, low pattern flying, and landings. Keeping your speed conserved and as high as possible, and therefore control, for as long as possible gives a pilot time to think, decide and maneuver to a landing given the best available option known at that time. The extra 200', 400' 800' or 1500' of engine off glide before stall would have saved many GA pilot lives over the last nearly 100 years or since good GA data has been collected and available for statistics, etc. I appreciate your channel and varied content. Keep up the great work.

Windmilling props do not ALWAYS generate more drag than a stopped prop. As illustrated in "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" figure 2.19, the relative drag difference depends on the propeller blade angle. Since Edward's prop was set for a very high rpm, or low pitch, position when the engine failed, in his case the windmilling prop had far more drag than when the engine seized. If he had gone to low rpm on the prop control, and assuming that the blade angle would have been on the order of 30 degrees, he would have had less drag with the engine windmilling than if it had seized at that point. It's understandable that at low altitude he was too time-constrained to pull the prop to low rpm, but that's why in constant-speed props without feathering ability we should go to low rpm when the engine fails.

yeah spinning prop always creates more drag. Think about spinning it takes energy (or a force to push against the engine, like engine braking basically). Thats why twin props always feather the failed engine to reduce drag and get at least a little climb performance especially on smaller twins.

Great content thank you. Think that is the best answer to the impossible turn Ive ever heard and very logical, thanks.

Seeing him dump that nose made me feel good. A windmilling propeller absolutely causes more drag as it is driving the engine.

Thank you for sharing this.

Great job

Yes a spinning prop produces significantly more drag than a stopped prop, especially with the governor trying to maintain the speed despite the engine under a lot of stress. It was acting like an air brake.

Somewhere in the recesses of my brain - I remember a video that Trent Palmer did with some of the other Cowboys and they tested engine out with windmilling and stopped props (safe altitude, directly over the airport, etc, etc).

Wow you nailed it the spinning prop, it's it's wash and turbulence is what effectively creates the disc a proper diameter wall of air that creates friction on the incoming flow the proper stopped the effect is reduced dramatically if the prop is feathered then better still

Yes, and since I rent airplanes as a student pilot, all I can do is look at the log books, investigate how the flight school takes care of their aircraft and conduct a proper fre-flight and follow the checklists.

Way too many variables to make a blanket statement on the 'impossible turn ', every single situation, aircraft and pilot experience is different. Still great food for thought, Thanks for sharing!

What a cool video of a terrifying situation! At my flight school we are taught to always do a takeoff briefing: If we loose the engine before takeoff, we reduce power and roll to the end of the runway. If we loose the engine after takeoff with sufficient runway remaining, reduce power and land back on the runway If we loose the engine after takeoff without sufficient runway remaining, we land on a field or road ahead of the airplane (note approximate locations of good off-field landing spots)

Great interview. This is where preparation meets reality. Haven't been there (yet) but preparing myself mentally by "chair-flying" this scenario in a flight simulator (I recommend x-plane due to highly developed flight model). Simulating this situation as close as possible to real life (weight & balance, weather/wind) using the same aircraft you fly in real life will help you build a mental picture in a safe environment. Then go practice some impossible turns in flight and at a safe altitude.

Well, I'm an A/P and as I observed many times, many pilots right before getting into the runway, they hold the plane on the brakes, do the mags check, push throttle up and play with the prop level back to back about three times at least. I do believe with that procedure and the vibration it creates, that would bring up any possible engine problem, which would be an alert to cancel the flight.

An spinning non-feathered propeller will create a lot more drag then a feathered stopped propeller, any day, any time.

Well done on the flying. The impossible turn is very possible with the correct energy management. And yes, a spinning propeller creates more drag than a stationary one. To put it simply, when the blades spin they have a larger surface area against relative wind flow, versus just the face of a blade... Its all to do with forces and moments, just in reverse this time, no longer from a powered perspective but from a driven perspective.

Did a lot of training at Tracy, now flying out of Rio Vista which also has crossing runways. Last BFR my instructor and I did engine outs to every runway. I now know that I can make it back to one of the runways from 600 feet in an Archer or 172. At 800 I was doing S turns and slips so that I wouldn't land long. It's good to practice.

The below 500ft turn is not a single answer question. The airport config, like perpendicular runway (proof here) could change the end of the "impossible turn". The wind direction and force. No wind vs strong wind. Getting a strong tail wind can significantly help reaching the runway. Air temperature, density altitude, health of the engine, pilot experience, emergency procedure briefing reviewed prior take off or not. Touch the commands when reviewing the emegency procedure during the briefing to have all of these freshly printed in the brain. This latter point is crucial to execute instinct actions during an actual emergency. All those questions need to be addressed during the before take off briefing to build an answer based on the actual conditions. "Given the conditions reviewed, in case of engine failure below 500 AGL, I can or can t go back" This should be an active assessment before every single take off. On new airport, I used to check on google earth (not necessarily representative of the actual airport environnment but still better than nothing) the most favorable side I need to turn to in case of engine issue right after take off. Those actions need to be covered by the CFI. I learned this myself as my CFI never really insisted on this aspect. That s my 2 cents contribution here. Kudos to that guy. I watched his video some times ago on his channel and was amazed by his great reaction to face the engine problem. Stay safe!

Maybe Dan should talk to Austin Meyers about Xavion for a future episode. It runs a power-off glide simulator to determine glide range from available real-time data and navigates to the closest airfield similarly to Garmin's red button auto-land. We are reaching the point in compute power on-board to get a good determination of whether the impossible turn is available and where to go if it isn't. Austin made a video and I've seen a few things on the Garmin, but not enough to know if its nearest capability and glide range indicator are high enough fidelity help with LOTOT, I think Xavion is pretty accurate given the model is probably coming directly from X-plane and his test method is described in one of his videos as running thousands of random engine-out sims. There are probably other apps that would be nice to know about, too. "Episode 345 of Taking Off!"

A spinning prop absolutely creates more drag, and it will cause you to suddenly float down further down the runway.

Great video as a past glider tow pilot, past glider pilot followed by ownership of number aircraft last AC was a piper aerostar 600a what gliding and tow pilot taught is to always plan ahead to always look for best option in light of power failure, manage speed, ability to know glide ration L/D and ability to make respective calculation. had engine failure in my mooney at night however was at 8000ft made to near by airport and landed. In this situation just circled around close to the airport always keeping runway in sight on the left. In this case was a bit high so slide sipped to bleed of the last 200 ft ( this was one of the practices in glideing or towing) Yes I made it safe but loss of engine in first 300 ft a real is a real proble best option land strait ahead with gear up. Christopher Ottawa Canada

I watched this episode, and thought since no one talks about what occurs if you experience a micro downdraft on departure on a short runway and what to do if you are approaching the runway with a maintainable crosswind that changes to a full tailwind over the numbers…. During my nearly fifty years of flying I encountered both and to recover from both took instant action… if more interest I would be happy to share in an email. Both were very scary, downdraft caught me fortunately by myself with full fuel just starting my positive climb reaching for the gear switch…

Spinning prop produces more drag. It has the same wind resistance as the still prop, but it is also doing work by spinning the engine. That work takes energy out of the system.

You should do one on how to master the prop strike as well

A spinning prop creates a braking DISC that slows you down, but a stopped prop has less drag and you actually speed up a bit! That's why we FEATHER the prop when ever possible.

Me and my father lost a engine coming out of lake city fl over the swamps in a 150 we rented but we where at 7k feet when it went out do to the swamps. We went for US19 but there was a crop duster field that we made the engine was gone it had 1 cycender that had some compression but not a lot. The guy that owned it sold it to us very cheap and pulled the motor and but it back in for free. We least it to Vandenberg airport in Tampa fl and they used it as there trainer for a long time. We had Lycoming in Orlando rebuild it and I think I might have flown it 1 time after that but it payed my way through A&P school so I liked it.... lol

Spining prop provides much more drag because it is not stalled and creates lift. (push in this case) Just like spining blades of gyrocopter or helicopter in autorotation.

As he said his stall was at 45, with the 20 degree flaps. Situation aware.

THIS is why I always fly with a parachute and fire extinguishers taped to my ankles

New sub! Liked 😛😀🙏🙏

I removed my previous post claiming more drag for stopped props due to higher negative angle of attack with reduced prop RPM. However, autogyros do use wind to produce more force than simple drag. So much force, you can glide the aircraft quite a distance rather than just falling. This is due to Bernoulli effect over the wing and a positive AOA. Props with conventional airfoils are in negative AOA when windmilling and don't get as much negative lift which is felt as drag slowing the aircraft. I still opine propeller negative lift is greatest when not turning due to this being the greatest negative AOA and Bernoulli not in play, but some airfoil could easily be installed to make this reverse. Maybe that is why there is some controversy here, a symmetric airfoil perhaps could produce some negative lift while still working for positive AOA? I recall a Mark Patey video discussing this and some disagreement. Mark wisely did not comment on screen. For the record, I never doubted Mark is smarter than me; I just failed to make the most of the knowledge. Probably a further indication of the intelectual gradient there.

I thought it was common knowledge a windmilling prop was a bad thing. It's why in multi engine flying much attention is paid to CORRECTLY identifying the failed engine and then getting that prop feathered.

This is not an opinion, this is an aerodynamical fact: A windmilling propeller creates WAY more drag than a stopped propeller. That is why twins feather the prop when they have an engine failure, and that is why helicopters autorotate instead of letting the rotor stop. There is no possible discussion on this. Now, there IS discussion on whether an IDLING propeller (that is, when you pull the throttle all the way back to idle but the engine doesn't quit) has more or less drag (or even some positive thrust) compared with a stopped propeller. That is the condition how most engine failures are practiced: pulling the throttle all the way back. At idle, the engine still produces a very small amount of power so the drag created by an idling propeller will be less than that of a windmilling propeller. With a good grasp of aerodynamics and airplane performance in general (other than a PPL I am an aeronautical engineer), I strongly suspect that the idling prop still generates more drag than a stopped prop, simply because the power delivered by the engine at idle is almost negligible (it's not enough to keep a taxiing plane taxiing, or to make it start rolling, something that you can easily do by pushing with your bare hand). But I have no proof other than my educated intuition. I once (only once) practiced and engine out with a real engine out when the instructor pulled back the mixture because I had my hand firmly grabbing the throttle (we were practicing slow flight). The propeller remained windmilling throughout the sequence so it just took to put the mixture back t0o rich to have the engine start again. But the point is that I didn't feel any difference with the idle prop that I had practiced all the previous times so whatever difference there is, it is smaller than my detection ability which, again, makes me think that an idling prop has a somehow smaller drag than a windmilling prop (it has to) but still larger than the stopped prop. So if you have an engine at a highish altitude (say an altitude that gives you some time for planning, look up the nearest field, etc...) it can be a good idea to slow down to minimum flying speed to try to get the prop stopped and then pitch down again to best glide. That ca give you some extra glide distance.

I’m not sure if you realize this. But you guys are mentoring a new student pilot.

I bet the STOL mods were a life saver in this case. Gave him extra low stall performance. More time room for error. What he did probably would have been much more difficult without them.

I can often tell when Dan gets Christy's dander up, including this time. Makes me tense up a bit too! 😬 I'm still using my "dog is my copilot" line in the car, though.

0:47 "...or captain and..." Tennille! It's Tennille, isn't it. "...first officer." ...oh

Great show! I had a power loss on takeoff at night in my Cherokee 235 due to poor fuel flow because of lack of proper maintenance before I purchased the plane. Thankfully I was at 1,000’ and had just turned off my boost pump and reduced power. As soon as I felt the loss of power, I pitched for best glide and turned the boost pump back on and increased power. The engine kicked and spit and sputtered but was able to make it back to the runway. As far as the “impossible turn” is concerned, it all depends. Runway length? Airplane? Altitude? Winds? An attempt to return to the runway with complete power loss at KTUP in a Nifty Thrifty 150 at 700’ or so is totally different than one at 22M in a Cherokee 235 at the same altitude. For some strange reason, a 150 tends to remain in the air a little longer than a 235 🧐😆. Oh and let’s not forget that we take off into the wind. So, returning to the runway after engine loss will put us landing with a tailwind. Once again, great show! Love what y’all do!

Boom Boom!! 💥

Years ago, during takeoff in a C182 for my biennial flight review, the instructor who was also the FBO, intenionally cut the engine at just above 400 ft. AGL. I immediately got the nose down while he was asking, "What are you going to do?" I said, the book says land straight ahead, but it has been raining and the open fields are all muddy. I have enough altitude to make it back to the runway. He said, "Go ahead and do it." I turned 180 degrees and we made the runway with room to sapre. He restarted the engine as were rolling out. He then said; "Taxie in, you pass:" "I appreciate anyone who cares that much about my airplanes, and uses such good judgement."

Assuming that the the engine is not producing any power, then a spinning prop must produce more drag than a stopped prop. This comes down to a simple energy balance. The energy to spin the prop must come from somewhere. If it comes from the engine then it's thrust, if it comes from the air then it's drag. Better to have the prop stopped. This should not be controversial.

His video popped up in my suggested feed probably the first or second day after he uploaded it. I gave him praise LeAnne for putting it out there, because he’s one of the 20% or less that gets to tell that story. Another thing is that I would add to his story is another debate which is I think he is more likely to survive that because he was in a high wing Cessna. Those faster low wing planes I do believe it would’ve been a bad choice.

Great story, great outcome. I love the discussion of gross motor skills and automatic responses.

The mechanic we use on our Bonanza is a pilot and he test flies the airplane after all major maintenance. I think this is best practice. I’m not convinced that the pilot is the best idea for the test flight after maintenance. In the Air Force, I was a maintenance test pilot. We were specially trained for those flights. Once we tested the airplane, it was released for pilots and student pilots.

PO 180’s are started at 1000 ft. He was 400 so my question is was the engine producing any power?

I think in the time I've been watching Taking Off and following Dan and Christy, Lola has been in maintenance for 90% of it.

Dan unsure if wind milling prop is more or less drag then stopped?

Unload the wing. What happens to stall speed at lighter weights. What happens to your weight when you unload the wing?

I like the term co-pilot because it’s true. Airliners are 2 pilot airplanes. We airline pilots are BOTH co-pilots.

Why was prop not feathered ?

Just curious, would feathering the prop have helped in reducing drag before the engine locked up on landing?

❤️❤️❤️✈️✈️

I think his safe landing is the calls he made and the wing setup. He was fast as a stol airplane so he has speed to burn on his turn. But if he had the wing that came with the airplane I would guess he would have left a dint on the landscape.

windmilling prop generates much more drag.

Not being in the aircraft, that canal area looked like a very good place to land?👨‍✈️

I am a student private pilot and this happened to me. I did all of the checks including the mag check and all was good. In fact the aircraft was flown 30 minutes ago. I start my take-off roll, speed is alive, gages in the green oh then I guess I spoke to soon, the tach started to bob and drop, then I heard the engine drop a bit in RPM. Not good. This happened at 55 KTAS. , I did not rotate and was pulling the throttle to idle and said this is not good, and was going to say abort but my CFI beat me to the words and took over the airplane. After investigation, the right mag failed on the take-off roll. Yikes.

Where was the wind coming from and what speed?

That’s why you feather a prop LESS drag.

I can’t believe that a newly rebuilt engine gave up so quickly.

Chance favors the prepared. It's not always impossible and we need to know when. I submit that it's very plane specific, some can do it with ease, others like a bonanza is deadly at any speed. So we need ratings for every model. Owners should know how deadly their plane is. It could be an "impossible turn altitude" spec for a given speed. It could be specified for 3 speed, Vx, Vy and some kind of overspeed because a sharp turn can be speed hungry. stall speed goes way up. For certain planes, like maybe cubs/stol, it might always be easy at almost any altitude. Glider style planes might also be able to do it from zero altitude. Bonanza might not be able to return at any point. A good plane like a Risen might be able to return from 100km out. A nice capability if it's merciless tundra mountains. You can also kink to the side immediately after take off to have a natural loop back. Kink with the wind and turn into the wind. Mentally knowing the surroundings also helps. In his case there was flat land everywhere so even if your plane is poor you might be ready with an 80 degree option with zero hesitation. I figure a windmilling engine drains worse than a stopped one but as we see here, even from 370 feet it wasn't bad enough to not make it. If a prop can be feathered that is an advantage. Some suggest that for the tight turn back, flaps can be good and then release flaps for the glide in. His flaps and stol kit might have been key here. And one core lesson. Stall is not your friend. You take an option before it flirts with stall.

Two incidents at the same airport within a short amount of time. Did both get worked on by the same mechanic? 😦

Spinning prop obviously more drag.

A/S is your friend😎

When I was a student pilot I was practicing takeoffs and landings on my third takeoff 🛫 I was about 50 feet 👣 up at the end of the runway the engine suffered catastrophic failure 😨 with proper nose down and using the horizontal stabilizer in a porpoise 🐬 up ⬆️ and down ⬇️ motion I was able to climb to pattern altitude complete the pattern make a safe landing and taxi 🚕 to the mechanics 🧰 shop on the other side of the field. I swear it’s true LoL 😂. Any landing you can walk away from 👍

It makes more drag. It's how Gyrocopters work.

Great job by this guy.. very lucky.. I don’t think he was very proficient though, as he make the mistake of grabbing the mixture instead of the prop.. twice. Once in the run up, and again in the climb out. Also no checklist discipline.. Although I believe the engine was destined to fail anyway, I feel if he didn’t make the RPM reduction as early as he did, probably could have stayed running a little bit longer. Possibly grabbing the wrong knob may have bought him a little more time and altitude before the failure. Also seeing him pull the nose up when the engine failed was a bad move, as was throwing the gear out as early, but it did all work out, again.. very lucky!

Feathering the prop is first nubbies

With that type of break~in flight why bring the gear up? I mean it work so no big deal.

Engine out spinning prop a lot more drag

How about that, they finally finished resurfacing Hicks.

That’s not a matter of opinion, Dan. We don’t need opinion, we need science, and that’s exactly what the stopped vs windmilling Q is. 🤦‍♂️

I just finished a great training video from Captian Schiff's website on this very same topic. I would highly recommend watching and better yet going out to practice the maneuver for when this occurs. Here is the link if you are interested: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HMu-GdKZe_8.html

Your channel should be a solo flight, no f.o.

this isn't quite an impossible turn but it's pretty close- and Philip analyzes it very well. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0rFMH7V2oFs.html#t=18m45s

Bottom Line, Fly the plane!

Maybe get a new aircraft mechanic.

first time ever watching this channel, but Christy looks like she wants to smack Dan. Drop him and let her run the interviews. IMO. We'll watch more episodes and see if Dan grows on us. Right now he's thumbs down.

I'm not a pilot -- I loved this... But tell the chick that her woke attitude to naming conventions suck. Were so tired of people like her.

I literally want to throw up over this co-pilot crap and notice vs notice to airmen and this other idiocy we have allowed. Women can fly just as well as men we don’t need castrate all of aviation

This woke nonsense about which words can and can’t be used is far beyond ridiculous. Pilot and copilot are simple and descriptive terms and no reason not to use them.

Co-pilot is fine. Unsubscribing due to woke bs.

What's wrong with saying "copilot", is this another woke thing?

Love your channel, just found it. More books!! @book3311