This is correct. From the MMO space, the MMO genre suffered for so long because devs tried to make games for the super no-life raiders, who are only ever like 1% of the community. Make your game for 99% of the community first and foremost. Make hardcore content later.
@@djbubblegum9975 calling casuals evil is like calling a skunk evil. Sure they can stink sometimes but they're usually just minding their own business and not hurting anybody
@@freecomkcf I feel you. I wish more adults played fighting games, not by age but by mentality. Feels like 90% manchildren or actual children. What fighting games you play these days, if any?
@Doug Landrum I think one of the problems Fighting games, in my opinion, seem to have is that they seem REALLY bad at matchmaking at the 'ground zero' level once the game is nolonger brand spanking new. Lets say I leap in to [insert fighting game here], I'd done some basic shit, went through the tutorials, did the story mode if there is one and decided to go online and I'm getting my ass combo'd to the seven hells and back. I'm not getting put against other people who have just bought the game and haven't played a fighting game in so long that I might as well have never played one, no I'm being put up against people who are skilled BUT they're trying out a new character...which means their back down to the bottom rank. I know 'getting bodied and learning to appreciate' is the mantra and mentality of fighting games but getting constantly bodied with not even CLOSE matches just crushes peoples drive to push further because it becomes a "why the fuck should I even bother...this isn't FUN" and I know that a lot of people in the FGC are like "well the FUN comes from improving" but there is a reason why fighting games have the reputation of, as Max puts it, going to college because the FGC really puts out this image of that being the way to play fighting games. I mean how often do you hear people spitting on 'casual' players in ANY form of competitive videogame?
@@luketfer theres people who shit on casuals a lot. Its more encouraging to put up with the bs. I have played the genre for a bit and realized it requires the mentality on problem solving. Trust me you shouldn't force yourself to keep playing if u keep losing. It doesnt help theres fewer games with excellent netcode and have to rely on parsec/steam remote. It took me a while to appreciate things. However I must warn ya, Arena Fighter veterans are no joke. I played a lot of ninja storm and people can punish u hard for abusing your substitutions. Its fine to play other genres, theres a reason why i move onto other stuff because fighting games is a genre thats meant to be experimented with but not long hours unless you want to go pro. The trick is to not sweat the small stuff. It took me a while to resolve my mentality i used to have.
@@luketfer the matchmaking part is a playerbase issue. Not even a better matchmaking system (if such thing even such a thing) will fix that. The matchmaking in other genres aren’t that great either.
That won’t really matter much if the player doesn’t have the mentality or approach. There’s plenty of fighting games that are exactly that. It’s just that people have the wrong perception or focus too much on the things that they can learn later
I think this already applies to most fighting games. Most games are 4-6 buttons and stick. People get how to move around and that buttons relate to different attacks. Tbh IDK why the next steps (simple motions into a timed button for more specific moves) is such a large gap of understanding for some people.
How do I start learning how to draw well? Bad advise: "Perspective, detail, shading, staying on model." Max's advise: "Grab a pencil and learn how to hold it."
@@Agent719 problem is: you'll never find out about step 2, people only talk about step 1 and 3. ...BUT WITH COURSES... well, that's why people get paid for their art courses i guess.
I think that misses the point a little bit, at least as far as Max is saying. The first advice isn't bad. It's bad *beginner* advice. Learning is just relative(meaning peoples ability to grasp concepts are better when the lessons are tailored to their specific levels rather than using a one size fits all approach).
When I heard “Just play the fucking game” it was like hearing an echo of all the times I’d respond to my friends (one especially) complaints towards their skill in fighting games. That phrase RESONATES with me
Exactly. Acquaintence complains how fighting games are stupid because how much time you have to put in to get good. I say "If you're not having fun, play something else."
"Just play the fucking game" I think that's the best advice anyone's ever given when it comes to low level players, I've had so many players ask me and I say the same thing. Just play it to have fun, then take the next steps to get better. Have fun first, always have fun first.
But sometimes low level just isn't fun, their are exceptions but to some doing random shit can get kinda frustrating online, it's why I think the mid level is most fun, mainly full of competent players that still make many mistakes and it's generally faster paced experience, though that's just my opinion
@@1dayago843 I know after all I started against CPUs, but when you eventually learn how to block the CPUs become extremely easy and in general just have terrible ai, they get 3 bars and do raw lv 3 even on max difficulty setting
@@1dayago843 CPUs don't really act like humans at all, so it's kinda shitty practice. I remember getting good at beating CPUs in MVC3, went online, and immediately got demolished so hard I didn't even know what happened. That's really the big problem with fighting games. The gap between casual and even casual-tryhard is massive. Hell, I played a ton of fighting games growing up, and it wasn't until like SFV that I understood how exactly blocking worked. For reference, I grew up playing Street Fighter 2 with my cousins.
"And then he comes back, and goes I don't have any friends anymore" LMAO.... dude... This is absolutely true. I legit went from the weakest Fighterz player among my friends, to the guy that nobody wants to play fighting games with. I got started learning fighting games thanks to this channel.
Dude I get worked at 3rd Strike every time I play and I don't care because I made a black belt rage quit after pulled a Raging Demon Finisher. I got my 1 timer
Maybe you won't be… and maybe you will. I have this attitude regarding my workout routine - I may never become as strong as a guy like Brock Lesner, but I can become stronger than I am now.
honestly. this video makes me want to play fighting games again. knowing that its okay for me to just hit buttons and learn slowly makes me feel way better about my skill level. thanks max
I mean, you just have to be okay with losing. That is the core of the whole thing. If you can look at a loss as a net gain in experience, then it will make the journey much more enjoyable. If your goal is to win every game, then you are not going to have fun. It's just math, 50% all games played end in a loss.
@@charliericker274 This is like advice I would give, but that I also have an extremely difficult time applying to myself. XD I hate losing, even though I realize it’s just part of the game. Sometimes I remember this fact, sometimes I don’t and I get super tilted. I wish I knew how to change my point of view and keep it changed.
@@Pixygon I don't mind losing but if someone is being cheap about it I lose interest and basically let them win for the sake of not quitting. This is usually with people that have a bad connection and spam akumas moves with no logic. If I feel I'm the only one being effected by slow down I also lose interest.
From y'all honest opinions is it better to play the the d-pad for sfv or joystick I'm a bit late to the fighting genre but I would like to learn from other people
I like this video because he demonstrated everyone’s player level. Like when I was a measly teenager playing stuff like DOA and SC, I would just do the bare minimum and think that’s ok, then as I almost turned 18, I gotten the hang of it but still sloppy, 19, better and better, still could learn a few things, 20, play fighting games every day to improve, now that I’m 21, it feels good to see my progress from when I was like 14 to now. Max is right, you can’t speed run fighting games, you can only learn by time and trial and error
It's like learning an instrument, if you start young, you don't care that you suck. I started at like 10 or some shit. By the time I was old enough to care, 15-16, I already had years of experience just playing fighting games. If you start when you are older, and that age is different for everyone, it can be tough. Also you learn faster when you are young. That said, you can start when you are older, if you enjoy it you will still have fun even if you suck for a while.
Yes I remember playing DOA as a kid trying to do Ryu spinning air throw. You had to do a half circle to another half circle to a full circle. My brother lost his shit when I landed that on him. Now I'm so far past him in fighting games he don't even entertain the idea of playing them with me. And I suck!
@@timothyalexander7006 same with me and my brother. I sometimes ask him if he wants to play against me, but in the end he either tries some combos for his character of choice and we never battle eachother or we do a few matches which he loses even when i restrict myself and then he is done with the game. And I'm barely above average at sfv. Average being silver level...
This reminds me of when that one egirl was learning May in Strive's Beta, and her excitement when she figured out the quarter-circle/number notation system was contagious. She figured out the seal ball move and the dolphin, went online to try, and got her ass opened like a can of soup 🤣 she was kinda sad afterwords, because "she just wanted to do the cool seal move". I think that's a good highlight of the conversation. You go from new player, to casual, to experienced, to competitive. There's a lot of overlap between those tiers, though, that I don't think is talked about enough.
@@djhero0071 yes, I know. To clarify, I knew her name and remembered her attachment to the Zcandal. However, I didn't feel it was relevant to my comment as a whole.
Well, her name is relevant for people who want to find the clip (and hopefully Majima OBoomer’s INCREDIBLE analysis of it). As far as her reason for leaving, I feel it’s appropriate for why she left fighting games though I understand why you didn’t put it.
"And then he comes back, and goes I don't have any friends anymore" Felt that :'). People just want to have a bit of fun playing games for 60min of free time in the evening, not try harding a game for 2 years on end
I mean, there is plenty of middle ground. I'd rather play with someone who try, fails, and tries again than someone who doesn't consider learning the game he or she is playing to be important. I don't require an associates degree, just half the tutorial, yo.
I love the real talk sessions, and I know alot of this is secretly directed at developers since you know for a fact they sometimes (hopefully always) listen to you now
On the topic of casual players, I’d recommend watching the youtuber Bricky’s Guilty Gear Strive review. He is very forward in how he doesn’t play fighting games and that he loved Strive from his casual point-of-view 😀
Eh, he went on way too long about making sure everyone knows how much he dislikes anime and stuff like that at the start, kinda lost me with that crap and I couldn't be bothered watching the rest of the video personally. However I've seen plenty of other casuals share their experience and very much see how Strive has perfectly got newbies hooked and having a blast, and as an intermediate that couldn't have much of a good time in the games I liked due to most of the games matching me against players who could do nonstop 0 to death combos, I feel I've got a grip on most things and am actually being paired with players my same skill level finally and I'm having a great time.
@@leithazizpagy4699 you can watch return of the jedi and still have a good time. Strive's story did very little to reestablish the characters for this new part of the story.
@@leithazizpagy4699 I've always said the Same for Zato-1's theme in Guilty Gear X, Feal a Fear. It's instrumental progression from Zato being in control, then Eddie trying to overtake him in their partnership, Zato going crazy in the process, them him succumbing to it all and letting Eddie reign supreme makes it one of my favorite music tracks in any fighting game period. Also kind of helps that it was the first Guilty Gear song I had ever listened to, thus it being the catalyst for me getting into the series.
sucks ass being psychologically, from a medical perspective, avert to a mindset that allows you to learn things like that seeing how normal people do it all the time. kinda locks you out of being able to do cool stuff.
I used to be a hardcore player back in the early 2000s (custom fightstick, ranked, tournament regular, making nice side money off of my hobby), but after a while, my priorities changed. I graduated college and got a "real" job, I met a nice woman who ended up becoming my wife, I had kids, etc. Slowly but surely, I realized that I just didn't have the time or desire to play fighting games for like 4 hours a day. That's just my experience though; if being a hardcore makes you happy, then keep doing it! Everybody has their own idea of happiness, and they should feel free to pursue that happiness as long as it doesn't hurt others. The thing is though, "happiness" is a malleable concept that changes for each of us over time. As I got older and started having more going on in my life, I realized that life doesn't occur behind a screen. After a while I got so sick of playing competitive that I wondered how I ever enjoyed it in the first place.
i kinda follow the same system. i played doomfist at master rank, and i actually ended up wearing out the joint in my wrist. its not a huge issue, but now when i really roll my wrist there are clicks and pops in my right wrist my left doesnt have.
@@raidengoodman8754 Haha, I was just going off of memory; it's realistically been like 15 years since I last played competitively. There were definitely days when I would put in like 10+ hours, but it's not like I was living off of my tourney and sponsorship money. I didn't really try that hard in college, but I still had to put in enough effort to pass my classes. Realistically, 4-6 hours was what I was doing daily, and that was enough for me. Not trying to sound elitist, but a lot of pros don't play quite as much as a lot of people think they do. Practice is very important, but don't discount talent. If you don't have it in you, you'll never reach the top through effort alone, and that's a hard fact of life in all professions that people need to get realistic about.
@@rsotuyo8180 There's nothing sad about it, I'm happier than ever. I still play video games of course, but I don't feel like I have to play anymore, and on a personal note, the idea of these long gaming marathons is something that I no longer enjoy. I guess I used to think that gaming was my happiness, but I realized that they were simply one thing that makes me happy as opposed to defining my happiness. There's a lot of beauty in the world that can make us happy, and a lot of it can't be found playing video games all day :) Like I said though, happiness means something different to everybody. If somebody finds genuine enjoyment playing video games for 10 hours a day on a regular basis, they're free to do so and it's not my place to judge them.
It's happening right now with me. A couple of months ago I was finally able to buy MK11 (its banned in Japan, so I had to make an Italian account, and have a friend buying it for me) and me and my friend started playing it. I was NEVER good at MK, ever. We spent the first month just literally mashing buttons. But then we kinda started to identify which character we felt more comfortable with, and started to learn the basic special attacks. Then my friend (who is half my age) started to kick my ass, more and more, to the point I wasn't able to win a single match. So I decided to "study" how the game actually works. I went on YT and started analyzing combos videos and strategies for my character. And I started to practice, first in Training mode, then with the Towers. And now I have reached the point that I can kick my friend ass 95% of the time. I can do combos, I feel I have ACTUAL CONTROL of my character, rather than just mashing some button hoping to do some cool shit. It's very satisfying. Am I still a n00b? Of course! I'm sure if I go online people will open my ass like an umbrella. I'm in my mid 40s, the time of being competitive is long gone for me, but who cares. I finally reached a point where I can understand how the game works, and I can think of STRATEGIES rather than "oh I hope I can push the button faster than my friend" Feels good man
@@alkalinemk1588 am i odd in thinking learning is the most boring part? for anything i mean. like i don't mind in fact i APPRECIATE learning selective subjects and things, but when it comes to learning by slow practice and methodology like with fighting games, math, art, etc... it's just like... how can people put themselves though this much frustration? all that itme spent without knowing if you're actually gonna get good, all that time spent for uncertain things when you could have spent it on things you already know you're either decent at or will have certainty will come out good... how do people do that? how do they find it fun?
Knowledge without understanding is a low ceiling of success in anything in life. Happens a lot in gaming forums where a new player will ask for help, and others will give them a "here's what you do," and no "here's why you do it." The later takes a lot more time and patience, so most aren't interested. They want the big numbers, and the flashy flashy.
That reminds me of warframe, where almost all of the content creators show off weapons at maximum levels, which is usually against lvl 180+ enemies, with a whole bunch of engame modifications and perks. Most players will never see enemy levels get that high, and have no clue how to get those perks. It's just not helpful to them.
@Dante Toshiro64 It’s definitely a learning experience. The best way I started to learn is record the match and determine where I messed up and where I succeeded.
Ok, if you feel like a test dummy, then just stick to playing offline. If you play with the intent to lose but grasp ideas from those players and then apply it, then you are learning. If you do your "homework" [yes, research] beforehand, apply and hone the techniques, and then you strategize while playing against them, not only do you understand but you are also aiming to go in par with them.
Honestly, I just like playing offline. Mk11 really bummed me out that it was mainly a online game. There was some stuff offline sure, but a game shouldn't be locked behind a internet connection just to play.
I agree with you but tbh man gaming is heading in a direction where eventually all games will be always online, even the single player story games like god of war
So true. I rather play against the AI than Kombat League which is super toxic. It sucks that so much of the skins are locked behind online matches when I hate fighting online. It can be fun at times with the right person, but it gets boring after so much toxicity. Plus we need more single player content in fighting games!
@@mrmagichat7555 Yeah but I think he means (and I'm just guessing) that all games will definitely be required to be online to play. Even single player. Like what Xbox tried to do years back.
This is a meaningful video that transcends fighting games. With a swapping out of some of the vernacular here this can apply to games like OverWatch, your favorite MMO, or some other competitive genres. It's a healthy gaming mindset to be aware that there is a scale of levels with many notches along the way. The more that scale is respected the more people on either side of the spectrum are willing to work with the other.
4:55 this is absolutely true. I played FighterZ for a couple months, my first ever fighting game, but I found it too frustrating and stopped, despite my love for Dragon Ball. Tried Tekken and I'm still playing it 2 years later. I've enjoyed the old school SF: Third Strike but didn't like SFV. It's weird but sometimes a game just clicks with you where others don't.
Your Evo moment made me buy FighterZ. I play it entirely casually (since I don't particularly feel like learning it), follow the updates and patch notes, and watch the pretty colors on the screen as Bluegito goes Yosha. This video resonated with me, and I feel like you've done a great job helping casuals appreciate trad fighters.
I'm sorry, but as a casual playing fighting games for near 30 years, it's not what, or how, but why. Why am I going to take the time to "get gud" at any of this, when to get gud means I have to forego what is fun to me in fighting games. When the game demands I treat the damn thing like a job, to somehow make it be fun, the game is the problem, not the user. Like practically every other genre out there, fighting games and the developers catered to the hardcore base. The people that spend hundreds of hours on a game, that game and no other game. They studied frame data, which is programming thing, not the game itself, and hit boxes. That's no longer playing, that's exploiting the base design. And because they cater to that player, anyone else that wants to come in is met with nothing but a wall of unfun until they themselves do what the hardcore player does. Developers should have NEVER encouraged this. There's a reason the fighting genre is nothing but the same people involved in it over and over. The vast majority pick it up, ask why would they waste their time here alone, when there's tons of other games to play (non fighter) especially if to have that fun they have to commit so much of their lives to it, when they can just stop and never return. MMO's went the same route and that genre has bled tens of millions of players for it. If I have to spend the length of a RPG, just to have a middling grasp of one character in a sea of choices; you screwed up, and that's the bubble coming in this genre. Too much focus on the high end, you don't realize you lost everything you were tethered to.
Bro, I remember one time I went to a friends house and his two little bros were playing street fighter 2 and the both picked Blanka. They would just jump around and try to electrocute each other and man, that shit was so funny to watch. Legit jumping and hitting jab all fight. Miss those days.
Max just gets it. ESPECIALLY with that last point about reasons for wanting to get better. I downloaded fightcade for JoJo, but my little brother kept beating my ass (he has a knack for fighting games). It drove me to learn the matchup and my character's 1 combo loop and now my brother refuses to play with me. Sometimes all you really want to do is just show your brother who rules the house.
It's kinda universal. Playing Virtua Fighter with my brother and my father when I was a kid got me into fighting games. It also helps that I have a weird natural attraction to games with one on one fighting. Like, I'll probably jump on even the worst fighting games if it's on a cab at like a store or something. And I've always been like that. That and my family rivalry is what led me to this genre I hold dear.
That "I just want to beat my friend" mentality was how I got into casual competitive fighting games 6 years ago. I still don't fully understand how to utilize frame data or how to adjust after patch note releases, but at least I can show some of my more casual friends how I beat them and can follow along with most terminology when I watch FGC content.
Max, your main goal with this channel seems to be the sharing of your love of fighting games. Every time I watch your videos, it makes me want to pick up my controller and fuck shit up. Mission accomplished dude!
I started really playing fighting games with Fighterz, and I remember it clicking with me after watching that video. You literally are the reason I'm excited for patch notes, and that I'm actually labbing stuff I see now. It's incredible
See that's why i'm still playing smash to this day. Any time i get into a casual environment i start FFAs, putting items on like medium or something, and having final smashes on. Even if it's just me and like two of my cosuins my brain just goes plain 1v1s are cool however this game is way more interesting when the zany elements are allowed to thrive every once in a while.
FFAs, items on, all stages, is how I was introduced to Smash. I love casual chaotic fun and seeing the stages as they were designed. I separate it from 1v1s as a different mode of the game, which is completely fine, because I see how down the rabbit hole every character can go.
Even "simple" fighting games like SF2 takes time to really master. It's like Chess...it's easy to pick up but takes forever to master. The problem with many casuals is that we have families, full time jobs, and other commitments. The only way you can truly get good at fighting games is if you pick it up as a full time job.
I gotta thank you, Max, I started watching your videos and sending them to my friends over the past few years. Now I get to spend my weekends playing MVC2, and I got to watch my friends go from button mashing to starting to figure out combos and footies. Love the content you put out.
Been trying to break into the genre for a minute. Watching you has made me really fall in love with fighting games. Been absorbed in SF6 and I've gone from spamming healing items in Master fights to actually using parries, defense, and drive reversals. I'm just stringing supers together but I'm starting to understand things more. My last fight with Cammy was super fun and I was doing shit. I was keeping pressure. I just need to learn how to properly do combos. Then I'll have a decent foundation and can go from there. I understand doing cancels but I don't know enough to do it consistently. My highest combo count is still from just throwing out a super art. But I'm having fun and I want to learn more. I'll get there.
The story at the end just straight killed me 😆. It's the same with chess - what motivated me the most to improve was wanting to beat my friends, and those that were just the nearest in proximity to me, but beyond that - I can't say improvement is as fun🥊🎮
That's always gonna be the arguement ain't it? Do you cater to the hardcore, the casual or the middle ground. As someone who has been into fighting games for a long time at the middle ground it felt so good to be able to get a couple of my friends to even try a fighting game. They always saw it as the "infinite, TODs, 90% combo every time, every character is a vortex" & having them get their foot in the door. That was the hardest part, but when you get someone who's so so new to a fighting. And they land their first combo the amount of joy in their voice (or face if your playing couch coop) cant be beaten.
Honestly i think they main goal of a fighting game needs to be to be fun. If the game is entertaining and stays entertaining it will get an audience more so than if they try to make it competitive
@@addex1236 Agree, I get into fighting games like Guilty Gear XX or Tekken because it looked fun and entertaining. I don't care if I don't do 70% air combo, crossups or jail cornering my opponent as long as my RoboKy can KO you by being a helicopter or if my Devil Jin can laser the shit out of you, then I am fine with that especially if I do that shit to my friends.
@@addex1236 Yup. I got into fighting games not because of online but because of the characters, stages, music, and overall design. I could care less about online all I want is for the game to be fun and have some single player modes with variety.
I still remember the day as a kid when I first learned how to do the Shun Goku Satsu, and when I was able to do it consistently after like 2 hours of grinding, that joy is something I can count with one hand the times I have felt.
I remember learning Fighterz and thinking "Oh this is a neat fun game" and then I saw your how to extend combos video and now I have clocked in over a thousand hours into this game. Fighterz made me a fan of fighting games and its all because of you! Now im the "Fighting game expert" in my friend grouå and they all ask for advice even though I have no idea waht to tell them. So I just tell them pick a character you think looks cool and play the game.
Just started FighterZ and it's my first fighting game. I've watched a few of your videos of fights while scrolling through RU-vid but this video is what got me to subscribe to your channel. You are 100% spot on, I'm just starting to have things click and it's starting to get really fun. I've finished the boot camp and I'm a good chunk of the way through the combo challenge. Hopefully you've got a good video on making the most of the FighterZ training settings cause I think my next step is to practice combos from the combo challenge against a 10% CPU and slowly increase the difficulty.
Been watching max for Hella years now and barely got into fighting games this year. Combos are like a fucking drug. Been playing gg strive and when I started that game I was so shit. But now I've finally made it to celestial. Then got kicked down immediately 😔... anyway the gist of it is just have fun and learn
Thank you Max, I really love your Real Talk videos :) Especially the ones about casuals because that's me. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on casuals trying to enjoy and learn the game, but having to face smurfs or better players who purposely dropped some floors for whatever reason. These fights really discourage me in most fighting (and other pvp) games. Any Maxical advise would be very welcome :)
I’ve always had issues in trying to figure out mk juggle combos. I struggled for a while but after some time in practice mode and finding the right character for me I improved. I’m not as good as I want to be yet but I think I will get there eventually. Practice makes a difference
@@justyourfriendlypebble8943 Ikr. I’m in that beginning stage of trying to find good combo and special move mixes before I try to get into the run canceling. That shit can be difficult af
@@Rieman6000 yeah I practiced for a bit with a few friends on parsec with mkx since I don't own the game anymore and was able to string together corner combos but the run cancel freezes my brain
I think fighting games should take a few notes from smash and include some alternate party game side-modes. Fighting games are so fun, but they’re just too sweaty, and I’m not a very competitive guy.
agree but disagree honestly. alternate ways to play for sure, but not necessarily low stakes ways to play. like a tag team mode in a non tag fighter or something to that effect.
@@HighLanderPonyYT I mean sure if you wanna just press buttons but there are better games for that That like me saying man I wish moba had more modes that had more shooter aspects to them instead of just playing a shooter
@@jjsolo28 I just said it was fun buddy. I like the characters I like the music I love punching my friends and family in the face virtually, I just want more fun ways to go about doing it.
I want to thank you maximillian, because of that same video you showed about the extension of combos is the reason why I'm a fan of you and also of fighting games
I always admired people who were good at fighting games and always enjoyed watching people play and compete at the highest levels. I decided to finally take the plunge when Super SFIV came out. I went hard too. I gained a huge appreciation for those that are good. It took me at least 3 years to finally hit a point where I was good enough to hang with the hardcore crowd for the most part (not pro though) . It really does take dedication. I watched hundreds of tutorials and combo vids for my main and read tons of threads on SRK forums. I learned frame data , frame traps and matchups. You never think about all that stuff on the surface but it really helped to solidify and strengthen my abilities in the game.
I feel like I'm between casual and pro. Love a fighting game so much to be good at I start going against people that are extremely high level that I either go toe to toe with or just slightly scrapping the barrel. For me it's always fun to go up against people that are better than me to learn even more cool stuff to pull off and learn what to do in new situations you haven't been in from other players that weren't at this skill level. All and all I love both scenes of the casual fun to enjoy fighting game aspect and the serious, give everything you got pro scenes
Man, as an older fan I feel happy that more people are getting into Guilty Gear, but at the same time I kind of wish they didn't cut off our fingers to achieve that.
@@leithazizpagy4699 See, that's the problem. I cannot forget the rest of the series when I play Strive. I always get the feeling that I could do that cool thing or another, and now I can't. And Strive is technically the series finale, so I get twice as upset that we got a lesser game than everything that came before. And I'm not talking just gameplay. Literally everything got nerfed in Strive. Gameplay, aesthetics, visual design. The only thing that's better is the Online. All these things just pile on.
@@leithazizpagy4699 On presentation: look at intros and outros in Xrd, then look at the ones in Strive. Which ones look more fun? Looks at some character designs from previous games, then look at the ones in Strive. Remember the special VS themes? Those are gone now. Instant Kills? SUPER gone. Arcade mode? Barely has anything interesting outside the team-up and secret boss. Doesn't even influence the plot anymore. You don't even get a special artwork like in XX. "If you feel like the gameplay's became neutered, you might need to play around the cast and see who "avoids" this need to compare previous versions." Except I've been doing that this whole time. I didn't seriously play the new characters yet (I was going to start labbing Leo today), and I do like Nagoriyuki from what I did try, but the feeling doesn't go away. Also, Sol actually plays mostly the same. I can apply more or less the same tactics I did before, and most of it works. Actually, that's one of the big reasons why Sol is so OP right now, he wasn't nerfed as badly as other by the transition. His moveset is mostly the same without MAJOR alterations that would actively cripple him. It doesn't matter how much they nerf his frame data, he'll still get carried by his moveset. "Another thing to note is that we're pretty early in Strive's lifespan and as we've seen with the recent patch, things will only develop more overtime. Let's not forget that we are comparing Strive which is pretty new, to Rev 2" No, YOU are comparing Strive to Rev2. I am comparing Strive to every game in the series. And not even the first arcade version of XX, which was a buggy mess (there's a reason they called the second one "Reload"), had the same serious issues that Strive does. "Strive is the conclusion to Sol's story" Which is the series' main plot, so it IS the grand finale. And a very lacking one at that. Even Story mode, as fun as it is, has serious issues.
Fun fact, that DBFZ extend combo videos helped me win a little DBZ convention tournament 😃 ended up showing people afterwards the video and they adopted it so fast. Was so good sharing it with people who wanted to learn more the same way I learned
I'm very glad I caught this bit randomly on stream because after showing it my brother we had a good conversation. He realised that he went at fighting games the wrong way and that he may have more fun by just doing what you said and experience the game first instead of learning combos first thing. That's something I also often do. I have this feeling in my head that I first have to "study" before even going online which isn't true at all but I'm the type of person that likes to be prepared. He's more casual than me especially in terms of knowledge regarding fighting game lingo but I catch him up bit by bit.
I want to say thank you Max for making fighting games seem accessible to a newb like me. I'm multiple steps below casual FG player. (IE: played the hell out of Smash, but haven't touched a traditional Fighting game since Genesis Mortal Kombat until DBZF). Took your advice to get in early on Strive and while I haven't even played a real person yet, I'm loving the learning process (and it's a lot for someone like me!). Thanks for having such good and positive takes and caring about the little guys like me.
Max is spittin! Learning DBFZ with my college homies offline was some of the most fun I had when i started playing. We played MvC3 MK11 T7 and even KI and we had a blast. I cant thank him enough for just introducing me to the
My biggest problem with alot of modern fighting games is how fast they are. I get so overwhelmed by games like DBFZ that I just forget every single button, so i either just defend and hope to get my bearings again or just panic-mash buttons in hopes for... anything really. Which is why I really enjoyed the new SamSho simply because it lets me process things.
I once saw another content creator known as Argin do this one Super Baby combo in his Nerf Super Baby 2 video about 2 months ago, the combo itself didn't make much sense to me at first, but when I came back to the video after learning a bit more about Fighterz, the combo didn't look as impossible as it once did, so I tried to recreate what he did. Took about 20 tries, but I eventually did it. What I'm trying to say is, when you learn more about what works and what doesn't in a fighting game, it opens a world of possibilities. That's why I began to get into this fighting game stuff. It's kinda fun.
Many fighting games have general mechanics but when it comes to some fighting games those basic features are either abstract from the game or theirs even more stuff in top of those basic features to give it depth like auto combos, while they are essentially mash to play button later on you learn how to apply this basic features for pressure or just general mechanics like smash properties or drag down into which you can eventually learn to extend or create your own combos
nah max is the median because. one, he plays every fighting game. two he plays things that aren't fighting games. there are several levels above max of people that just play the one game all day everyday gaining thousands of hours of experience with a game that max doesn't normally get
I find myself crossed between casual and hardcore. I like the exploration and learning phase, but I don't really go much further. Personally because I don't enjoy playing to win, I enjoy playing to have fun. I love doing dumb strategies, using bad characters and bad moves because I find it more fun to play someone bad like a Q and have fun than play someone like Yun and win hallow victories.
I love your content, and I love fighting games. The last time I played against a human I was playing streetfighter when it came out on the SNES. I still enjoy them immensely regardless.
Before I found Max’s videos I dabbled in SC4 and Tekken Tag 2 when I was in high school, now I’m at Celestial floor in Strive looking forward to the new King of Fighters. I still can’t wave dash for shit and I forget I can throw all the time, but I’m having so much fun learning and sharing this thing now. Thanks for opening up fighting games to me, and now me and my friends get together on discord and fuck around in Street Fighter V and randomly pick mains on weekends
The more ppl that get into the hardcore scene the better. When hardcore players hate on casuals, it seems like gatekeeping. Hardcore players should want games to appeal to the bigger audience because that means more ppl into the FGC. Just my take tho.
Especially considering the fighting game community is (relatively) small enough as it is! The current gen of hardcore players won't be around forever, and if the next potential generation is scared away then who'll be left?
I'd say fighting games have very welcoming communities. Got into a couple of games thanks to that and they're always down to help you in any way possible, even making some time for you even if they seem busy. I rarely see any gatekeeping, but that's probably cause I don't have Twitter. My laptop is full of different Fighting games just so that I can find a game anyone can like. The more people to share my fav genre with, the better.
No. We actually find it funny how much you idiots cry. It's so hard to do this or that. Some games aren't meant for everybody. Some are to dumb. Have adhd. Lazy and don't want to work at it. Or give up. I say f all of them. Your weak minded anyway.
As someone who started their FG journey out of pure spite, I like this rant. My older brother used to kick the shit out of me in tekken 3. Spent a couple weeks getting good, he’s never won again. Should probably thank him someday; idk where I’d be without fighting games.
Yep. I thought I was decent and thought about entering a tournament to see how well I'd do. Got absolutely destroyed in the first round on stream. I was so angry I looked up videos and discovered tech exists. Then I had to learn how to think. All for a revenge match that would never happen.
I appreciate your advice. I've recently got into fighting games and I read so much conflicting information on where to start, what to do, how to do it.
Max, you have been giving me an itch to play fighting games so bad. I button mashed in Street Fighter 4 when I got my first Xbox and I had a decent time. You make me want to learn it all!!
I'm by no means a hardcore player, though I do kind of find some sort of motivation in trying to learn new things about the fighting games I play especially after watching people playing at superior skill levels and doing pretty sick shit. Max included, so I think this advice is pretty helpful I do think that fighting games should walk a better line between appealing to both audiences though. Games like SFV and Marvel Infinite rightfully got flack for lacking basic features that didn't just appeal to the competitive crowd our of the gate, or really half-assed them in the case of Infinite's story and general presentation, while some others throw disdain towards Smash for stuff like its mediocre online experience and lack of basic skeletal online features while it has a plethora of content for the casual player. There needs to be better balance, and certain studios like Arc System Works and NetherRealm understand this better than others to an extent even though I don't love stuff like the Krypt, it does help the casual player ease into mechanics better
I absolutely fucking agree. Granted, finding that balance is super hard. Not impossible, but hard. I believe that it falls on a few things to make it accessible to all: 1. Good Training Mode. Off the top of my head, the game that has the best Training mode is actually Them's Fighting Herds. It does 3 things right: Training mode explains everything; there's nothing to hide, Character Specific Training mode. Learn what they do specifically and what they do well in. And finally, pacing. They will tell you, "Hey, these are the basics of basics. If you think you're ready to continue with the training, press "text here" if you want to take a break, press "text here" You don't need to overload with everything they teach you. 2. Something to do casually (Story mode/Arcade Mode/Collectables) Like you said, "Fighting games should walk a better line between appealing to both audiences" Having a good story mode or arcade mode or anything else that we can still play the game and have fun is very important. They need a little motivation away from online. 3. GOOD Rollback and Competitive Unranked. For the people who want to play competitive, but aren't ready for the rankings and the like, There should always be a Competitive Unranked queue. You'll fight anyone online in a competitive setting but without the risk losing rank. It's Competitive for fun, basically. Oh, and also good Rollback Netcode cause COVID puts us in a situation where we have to rely on everyones internet to have some kind of enjoyment with online fighting games. Kinda explains why Smash is kinda in the gutter as of this point. (Like seriously, I haven't heard anything of Smash Ultimate in the competitive scene for months, not even including the cease and desists they send out.) 4. (Most important of all) Good community. Don't be toxic to new players. Because casual players just kinda wanna press buttons and see stuff go. That's all.
@@jinchuriki7022 I honestly disagree. I think stuff like arcade or casual modes actually help the audience not immediately willing to jump into stuff like online play because they get supplementary material both for their own enjoyment and also for helping them test out different characters since there's an incentive to do stuff like playing routes with different roster picks to either advance a story or unlock a character-specific ending. They'll both get some sort of enjoyment that encourages them to play the game more and eventually they'll get attached to a specific character in the process. Not everyone wants to play fighting games for the experience with other players, as surprising as it may be, so it's important for there to be resources dedicated to modes that create a bridge between the casual and the hardcore, and not just mechanical adjustments to suit both
1:15 that is the single best description I’ve ever seen to describe BUTTON SMASHERS! 🤣 Real talk though. I understand the concept of learning the characters and the mechanics of a fighting game, but just play the game to have FUN. No need to take it hardcore seriously!! I’m having a blast with Guilty Gear Strive!! And yeah, I take my time to analyze and understand the characters so that eventually decide on who’s going to be my main, but I’m not going down the rabbit hole into its mechanics!! I got the game for my Birthday because I want to have FUN with it!! Let the casuals have their fun.
I mean the thing is with fighting games, you have to put in so much time to be good at them and actually understand what is happening during the matches. I really never realized this until I started watching Max but fighting games have so much depth to them it’s insane!! Especially games that have 25 or more characters, it’s so overwhelming because the more characters there are the more matchup knowledge and frame data you need to know and a lot of people like myself just don’t have the time necessary to learn all that stuff.
You have definitely inspired me to get a few fighting games, we used to have an arcade in my town and we used to have all our friends birthday parties their and i would always go to the MVC2 cabinet, only fighting game i ever played on console was mortal kombat, but now i have samurai showdown (one of my favs) tekken 7, sf collection(ik its not the best version but oh well) and soul caliber, all are awesome fun times
Honestly as a super casual player, one of the biggest things that holds me back from wanting to play more is just that online random matchmaking is GARBAGE at putting casual players of similar skills together. While you do learn from just playing, when you get into a match and end up as nothing but a punching bag for player of a vastly higher skill level, where you're so out of your league you can't get a hit in, you're not learning much. You're just an easy win and it's incredibly discouraging because you're barely playing at all. And I'm an adult with a job and such, I don't have the time or desire to put hours into one game every day to really push for huge improvement. The rare times I do find a match where someone's just as bumbling as I am and we're actually pretty evened up, that's fun as hell because that back and forth and trying your best and clearly missing tons of shit because you're not that skilled is great. It's just really hard to get matched up that way.
The worst part is when that happens and your scrub instincts start to take over and you're on the verge of rage quitting, that's really the worst thing that can happen, as long as the matchmaking is out of wack you're not having any sort of fun, and if you're not having fun while getting bodied, you start to view the game as being not good.
Described it much better than I ever could've. I love how a ton of fighting games look and play but fuuuuuck trying to really get mileage out of them because, sooner or later, you probably wanna hop online to extend your playtime with it. But usually that ends with me "playing" for an hour or so against people who seemingly do nothing but play DBFZ, GG, Tekken or SF and it just frustrates me because you're not really playing the game at that point anymore. You're watching someone manhandle your bottom. And to me it's just not a real option to take Max's advice of "just playing" stuff at that point. I wish fighting games would at least try to do more single player-oriented shit again - - modes like the two beefy adventure modes in Smash are perfect examples, if not always feasible with how huge SSE and WoL are -- but shit like SF5 having basically zero 1P content just puts me off before I'm even trying to get into something these days... May have lost what I tried to say a bit towards the end but I think my point is that, imo, there's probably tons of people out there like me who actually keep trying lots of different FGs just like Max says but can't really get into anything because they often lack meaningful content outside of, y'know, just fighting to keep someone engaged while fighting bots and/or you can't really learn jackshit from getting thrown around by players with a hell of a lot more time on their hands for any given title you wanna play against actual people online.
@@dom604 Yeah that's a real issue with casual/new players to fighting games, because for the majority of them the fighting is literally it for gameplay. Maybe there's some single player, but even then it's just the core fighting. With other competitive genres like FPS games, there's usually different modes and team based things and such, where even if you don't individually do well you can contribute to a group win and have some fun. With a fighting game, it's all you, so success/failure is that much more personal.
Ah yes the classic "Can't learn against people better/way better than me" argument that makes little sense when you consider one detail about fighting games: You didn't literally start the round in hitstun or in the corner getting murdered. Something 𝘩𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘦𝘥 to get you in that situation either some you did/didn't do or something they did that beat whatever you were doing. How do you think people who got good got that way? By learning from the ground up like that, starting from wtf is getting them killed and what they can do differently to make it less likely to happen. Fighting games have never really been something you just play for 30 minutes irregularly and expect to see significant growth especially when you don't have your fundamentals built up from other games. Hence why its a better idea to focus on single player content that also helps teach basic things while still being fun (IE not just a tutorial but an actual game mode kinda like what VF4evo does in its quest mode) instead of messing with mechanics.
I'm just starting out with fighting games, and what has stood out to me, especially compared to team-based games like MOBAs or FPS, is how often it feels like I don't actually get to play the game if my skill is not >= my opponent's. I fumble an input or fail to block and my opponent punishes it continuously until I'm dead because they understand things about the game that will take months or even years for me to get down. With team games, there are ways I can contribute even if my opponents are much better than me - I can ward and ping objectives, I can stand on a capture point and drop health/ammo, etc. I can still add something of value while I'm working on improving in specific areas. With a fighting game though, there's nothing I can do or work on that doesn't involve directly interfacing with my opponent, so it's do or die. At this stage of my experience, my tier list for games I've tried so far is ordered by how many opportunities they seem to give me to participate even as a less skilled player: SSBU with it's dodges, parries, shielding, and recovery options; Guilty Gear Strive with it's wall breaks and psych bursts; SFV has been at the bottom because I tend to get combo'd into a corner and I haven't yet gotten the hang of reversals. I'm curious to see how my preferences change as I improve in the genre, and which games end up feeling more rewarding in the long run.
Honestly fighting games needs more single player content. Stop forcing these newbies to go online and getting their butt kick and inevitably getting super salty about a game or the genre in general.
Giving folks rewards for mastering certain stuff and taking on matchups with certain characters that have a gimmick will not only help them, but maybe give them some inkling of experience for when the possibly choose to go online. Making the game a fun varied experience for even those who aren't gonna buy into the arcade experience of getting bodied 10-1 vs other players.
@@ShardNetwork you're not wrong. Imo this experiment of "hey kids, Esports is popular now so go out there and get gud!" Has been a failure. The more passionate players don't want their games to continue to get dumb downed for an audience that doesn't want to put in the effort they want to put. The casuals don't want to get 10-0 by those same pissed off players and not know why they're getting mixed up and constantly whiff or block punish. Give em more game modes to build confidence and teach them the game so they know how to use their tools oppose to holding their hand by making every comeback mechanic in the book or overly simplifying a game.
Im confortable doing combos and understand games to some extent But with Strive, especially watching Sajam play Sol and Nago, who I mostly play He makes bodying celestial players look so easy and smooth When I do it, I just can't That's why appreciate it so much, and you really can get a feeling on how much goes beyond just knowing combos and punishes
i really loved playing dbfz for the short time i was super into it, i remember labbing a combo for an hour trying to get it to at least 70 hits because i wanted to get the 7 star dragon ball. i did eventually get it, that was honestly some of the most fun i had with fighting games as a whole. i never looked anything up, just got into it casually for fun and eventually took it a tad bit more serious. i love being a casual fighting game player :> anyways just wanted to say i really enjoyed this video, it resonated within me. thank you max!
I don't play fighting games. I love watching them, but I can't play them. What I do is write. Amateur writing, nothing that's been physically published. And this is super applicable to writing as well; hell, probably most crafts in general. 'The journey is the destination.' 'Maybe the real Kingdom Hearts, etc.' You have to do a thing before you can do it well.
@@mrmagichat7555 I'm in an area with a very bad upload speed, and I have difficulty concentrating. All of the variables even in something as relatively simple as Street Fighter get very overwhelming.
"I have to get a degree in frame data if I want to be good!" No, you really don't. You really don't. -----> Immediately compares learning fighting games to taking an entire curriculum of math classes up to geometry.
don’t think about college when you haven’t finished grade school. that’s more in line with what he was getting at. like the fundamentals of math are addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, which you must learn before you do even basic geometry if that’s where you want to be. it was a weird way to explain by using two school related metaphors to make two slightly different points.
For normal play, you really don't need to learn frame data. Simple observation over time when playing is sufficient to get a functional enough understanding of the timing to not get completely wrecked against anyone under actual 'plays for real money at national IRL tournaments' level. This is the thing, learning frame data isn't necessary unless you want to go truly pro. It makes things EASIER to learn the frame data, but simply playing consistently will let you develop some internal, instinctual timing, that lets you tell when something is scuffed or not, and often can let you see issues with moves that those relying on framedata don't actually comprehend because they are so focused on that specific aspect. That move might be 750ms, but if the first 400ms of it just looks like the character is blocking, than for the other party, it's suddenly a read, instead of a reactable 750ms attack. Another example would be a 500ms move that the first 200ms is the same as the startup for a 900ms attack. Another problem is the prevalence in fighting game communities to respond to people having trouble with 'just read', as if it's some simple thing that they can do just by knowing it's an option. They forget that they have far more time in these games and have developed instincts and specialized pattern recognition to let that be a viable thing for them. That and the insistence that reading ISN'T guessing, when that is all it is. Might be a more educated one, but it's still a guess. You've also got bad actors who purposefully tank stats so they can go sealclub, which it only takes one experience with one of those types to forever turn someone away from the entire genre. The only fighting games I've ever done true 'competitive' play in, are SC2, SC4, where I did some small local tournaments for the occasional non-monetary reward, and I got into FighterZ and Melty blood a bit, but never did any tournaments or organized play. I guess you could say 'for honor' but it's not really a normal fighting game, it's honestly further divorced than Smash. Smash I would have been more serious about if the online wasn't such a laggy and inconsistent experience. I also get quite confused by Max calling himself 'median'. He's not 'average' in fighting games. He's not the best, certainly, but he's well above average in most of them, even ones he is literally playing for the first time, by sheer virtue of experience with other games in the genre (and often earlier ones in the same series or by the same developer).
@@logandunlap9156 No, it's not. Observing through experience isn't 'studying'. That's kind of the whole point. You aren't going out of your way to learn the stuff, you are learning as you play. That's not 'studying'.
Max you’ve always been great at teaching fighting games. I miss your old tutorials. Even for people that aren’t casuals you always had some entertainment for everyone.
Lol I actually link that DBFZ how to combo video to every beginner. I think Max explains it so well and it was how i learned how to do combos in Dragonball way back when. Still stands up today, even in season 4.
This video really speaks to me because I used to suck at fighting games and get very discouraged when playing, but now I made that connection with them. All the intricacies are fun and engaging to me even if I suck and can't even perform most of them, but I know that I'm going to play more and really understand more, and that's what makes me excited.
Seeing that DBF MaxDood video felt nostalgic, that’s how I discovered max and have been a fan ever since, it’s helped me make it to God of Destruction in Fighterz and start playing strive
For me reaching the “I’m alright at this game” spectrum. I know which characters I like and know combos but I don’t have a full grasp of the mechanics or super combos. You helped me max. Thanks!
One of the coolest moments for me as a casual fighting game fan was, recently I got into the classic KOFs and I watched a tournament match. One of the players used Iori, who is my favorite character, and he did this 3 hit combo that I thought looked cool. After playing some, I realized that I could do it and that helped me learn some of the other characters who have simple combos, like Kyo's qcf lp combo that he get's in 96. I'm still not great and I accidentally cancel into supers at bad times, but I've learned a lot.
I honestly did what you said with Fighterz when it came out lol. I was trying do optimal combos without know how to do basic and auto combos. Fighting games wasnt for me anyway so i didnt think about it too much
5:38 is completely true, I find it hilarious that sfv was the first fighting game i actually got into for realsies like actually trying to learn the game, and yes, learning moves and just what to do in every possible situation just gets really really satisfying. When an opponent throws something at you they've done before and got you with and you dodge or parry or block or even anti-air because it happened enough times for you to know what to do, that feeling right there is the feeling he was talking about.
You know that whole thing about the want for seeing other people’s progress and going “I wanna do that” is so true, because while he was talking I repeated a 15 second FighterZ combo window in the video like five times because I went “Holy shit wait that can loop?”
I really appreciate these discussions on casual vs hardcore players. You can even transfer this over to anything like MMO's, Card Games, Shooters, etc etc. We have a group of 4 of us who like to play Magic the Gathering together. One of us has been playing for 20+ years while the rest are just now getting into it. The veteran is expecting the rest of us to be doing infinite loop combos, all artifact and enchantment decks, and crazy combinations of mechanics that we can't even fathom yet. The rest of us are just having fun putting down cards with cool art and socializing. I showed him your previous short video about casual players in fighting games and substituted fighting games for MTG. He started to get the picture. Thanks for putting these out there. Very helpful for any type of game. 😎👍
This is definitely what hold me back from playing and really getting into fighting games. My own mental of "I don't wana be a casual/bad". I get down on myself super quick for not being at the level I want to be, when in reality I have little to no experience with anything beside button mashing is smash and n64 Mc. I wish I had the mental to just be fine with being shit at a game for a while.
