Honestly Demon isn't that hard to input. Charged supers tho. Vegas, Blanka, and Guile with their downback, forward, back, up input is pretty tough. As well as grapple supers are hard to do without jumping as they require two rotations or two half circles.
When it comes to new fighting game series, I mean, do whatever you want. Experiment, push the envelope, whatever. Just leave the games that have classically had motion inputs as is, or at least include both a “simplified” and “classic” input option. I’m fairly certain that people would riot if they removed motion inputs from Street Fighter cold-turkey.
Yeah, even as a guy who does not especially care for motion inputs, I firmly believe it would be a tremendous loss for the diversity of the genre if games just suddenly dropped them altogether. That diversity of game styles is really important.
@@FretsonFireTracks yes they all have the same motions but it's deeper than that. How many combos do you drop because you missed qcf or dp compared to dropping a combo because you didn't press forward button? How many punishes you would miss with motion and no motion? Nobody would miss a punish if all they have to do is press forward button and i mean NOBODY.
@@FretsonFireTracks I disagree, on multiple points. While yes multiple fighting games have the same motion inputs, we still have some fighting games with motion inputs and some fighting games without motion inputs. If we removed motion inputs from all games, that would necessarily be a loss in fighting game diversity, and that's bad. Second, I go into this at length in another comment, but I actually dislike the whole "you can do simplified inputs but you get a bonus if you do the actual motion" thing because you essentially are introducing 2 versions of every special move, needlessly complicating the game from a design/balance standpoint. A game should decide on their control system *early* in the dev cycle and design their game around it. Smash gets away with it because a very small number of characters actually do that, so it doesn't balloon into this massive balance nightmare. The Fighting Game characters just have a few extra special moves.
Street Fighter will *never* remove motion inputs. It's too integral to the history of the game. Do I think all fighting games need motion inputs? Absolutely not. I am very excited about Project L, and think for that game it makes perfect sense to not have motion inputs.
Yeah, I could see Project L having one button inputs with cooldowns instead. That being said, a system where specials have cooldowns unless you do them manually could be quite interesting.
I feel like smash had the right idea when it came to putting fighting game inputs into the game. The simple input was easy but less damaging whereas doing the original input gave you the max damage of the move which felt very rewarding.
I feel like that’s a good way for Fighting games to appeal to newer casual players who just want to have fun and don’t wanna learn the motion inputs, without diminishing the older more hardcore players who spent years improving their skills. Not sure if every special move should have a simple weaker version and a harder stronger version, I feel a few moves should be completely lock as command inputs (Not completely sure about this though) not to mention we have to make room for command normals. Short version: Do what Smash Bros did with the FG characters but the whole roster with some tweaks so that the casual and competitive can mind their own businesses
I'm partial to the way that Smash handled it with Terry and the Shotos: simple commands are faster, but do less damage. Doing the manual input gives an improved version of the move that does more damage or has other properties. Like with Terry's Rising Tackle--up+B is faster, but charging the move does more damage and turns it into an invincible DP.
Exactly! Sakurai absolutely nailed it with Terry and the shotos. I also liked that they included the ‘shortcuts’ to the ‘hard’ commands for things like Buster Wolf. Fighting games should really look at what SSBU did and copy it.
Yup, this is actually the perfect balance for inputs and of course it's Sakurai that comes up with it. Let one-direction specials do like 75% the damage of full inputs.
Imo that’s not a good solution. What’s the point of even having an accessibility feature in the first place if it puts the player at a huge disadvantage competitively?
I think, as you do kinda address, "should fighting games remove motion inputs" is the wrong question to ask. Some fighting games, especially those with a long history of the things, should probably keep their motion inputs. It'll completely alienate players like me, who can't even do a basic DP motion, but that's honestly fine? No game is going to be for everyone. But on the other side of the coin, I think there's more than enough space for the genre to have more games that don't use motion inputs, especially since those inputs are such a small part of the overall difficulty of fighting games as a genre. Not having motion inputs isn't going to suddenly make combos trivial, or mind games a breeze. If we get more games like that, that means a better chance that I can find a fighting game that speaks to me, and which doesn't immediately turn me away with inputs that are impossible for me to get consistently. I feel like I speak for a fair number of people when I say I want to learn fighting games, but don't find any value or fun in trying to wrangle my fingers around the specific gate of motion inputs.
I think current fighting games should keep doing what they're doing. But man the untapped potential of a new fighting game without motion inputs could be huge, bigger than the entire FGC right now. And I think project L has the potential to do it. It'll lose some of the "identity" of fighting games, but it could push the genre to a whole new level. DOTA was a slow niche game with unintuitive controls before riot games sped it up and simplified the controls and the moba genre exploded in popularity
honestly a lot of the problems current fighting games face is that they have 0 leniency on inputs, motion inputs uuould be fine if db-d-df-f uuas accepted as a qcf instead of giving you jack shit for daring to use a gamepad
In SFV if you do forward, down, forward you get a DP, they were more lenient there. To be fair, you learn to do a DP semi consistently in like... 2 hours max.
Soul Calibur has been the best in between for motion and simplified inputs simply by adding the option for both, to do a simple imput you preform a double input and direction A+B -> it still gave you something cool, however if you put your time into a character and learn their motion inputs you gain access to even more options, it rewarded you for dedication to a character but also allowed you to enjoy the entire roster
Oof, I feel that. I struggled with learning how to do motion inputs when I was a kid too. Just playing SF3 on a PS2, hitting the commands out of frustration because I tried following the instruction booklet and the hadouken would never come out...even with the convenience of the internet today, I'm sure it's still hard as hell for a lot of newcomers. If fighting games want to keep traditional motion inputs, they need to communicate concepts *even more* clearly. Like explicitly say "hey, this button should be pressed right away after the directional input" or something.
I could never get the slang. Here in Brazil, people call quarter circle motion a half moon, and I never knew what they meant, cause a full moon was a half circle and my brain was like "dude, have you ever seen the moon before".
I remember playing MVC2 as a kid on my modded XBOX and losing my sh*t when I accidentally did a hadouken and trying to figure out what the hell I pressed
The way I feel is that these systems where both motion and non-motion inputs exist with different rewards for each are a half-measure to try to please both crowds that will not allow for a fully synergized system. I'm fine with non-motion inputs, but it should be them exclusively or the other way around.
Reality has proven the opposite to be best. In GBVS the choice between immediate action or increased reward is a keystone of the system and remains meaningful through all levels of competition. It ADDS game. Fantasy Strike and Rising Thunder meanwhile got solved immediately and the balancing concessions necessary to accommodate the simple inputs without creating a SSFIV3D situation were just lame. It SUBTRACTS game.
I mean I think this is kind of an odd take. Only having motion inputs for SOME characters works fine for a game like smash, for instance. Because there are other difficulties to account for that aren't motion inputs. Maybe you have to hit the sour spot of a move to kill confirm into a stronger move? Maybe you have to have a certain aerial drift to kill confirm or execute a combo? Maybe you need to hit with the sweet spot of a move to kill? Maybe you need to nail the timing down of a combo otherwise you'll drop it? I think there are enough ways to make it challenging to do combos and kill that we shouldn't exclusively rely on motion inputs anymore. I think we should reward other skills so that people can pick their poison rather than be stuck with just the one.
@@Stroggoii to be fair, one of the reasons it even works in those games is specials having cooldowns of some kind (aside from just recovery frames). Put that dual input style system in a game with no cooldowns of any kind and then the only real benefit you can give for motions is more damage, better frame data, and extra effects. At that point there's no reason to ever use easy version anymore
@@Stroggoii Granblue proves that it doesn’t work. Moves like Charlotta flash kick can be used while running forward on reacting. Simple inputs were meant for casuals but they are used at top level play because they break the rules of the motion. Charge characters can decide not to charge.
@@frothyslider253 That's literally why it's good. It's not a bitch mode system meant to make people who can't do the moves feel like losers for using easy mode and always being worse than technical. It's different properties that you chose to use strategically. And even at high level for each easy ex flash kick you use on reaction or to end a combo without having to charge there's one that got dodged and left you without your reversal for the remainder of the round. Again, it ADDS game.
I like motion inputs as ways of giving extra ways to add new moves, though I think games like Granblue Fantasy Versus and DNF Duel - even Smash - giving benefits to doing manual execution over shortcuts that offer a way for players new to fighting games to eventually get into crossing the barrier, as Max said, is great.
Honestly, I really wish those games, especially the upcoming DNF, would try to go completely without them/ no benefit for motion inputs just to prove it would work. There's always been the argument that one-button specials would be broken, but in DNF they're almost completely identical. I want just one good game to prove that balance isn't an issue for no motion inputs, since so many basically already have them. Not SF6 though. if any game should keep motion inputs, it's street fighter, just for legacy
the thing with smash is that since the movement is around the whole scenario and the fact that there is DI make it still challenging since you have to chase your opponent to keep doing the combo at all times, while in traditional FG there is no DI i believe so it can be more busted
@@loganalleman Well, smash has proved that you don't need motion inputs to make a competitive game. I've never heard the argument that it would be ok, but it's also a really bad argument. How can something be OP/unbalanced if everyone has it?
This. I do think some games won't need the simplified version in general and some may just not have motion input, and if those are made with the entire games design in mind, I see no issue. But games that do have a simple then motion version should give slight edges for doing the motion version. DFD has proven that the differences are enough to sometimes make a difference but it remains a game about skill. Games that do this option need to be built from the ground up with it in mind. How does it help the design? On a casual level? On a competitive level? Do they stomp on eachothers toes? Is there a reward for learning motion over simple? All of these questions should be appropriately answered and, if they are, it's all good from there
One important aspect is that if you allow both motion inputs and directional inputs for a special move, you're taking away options to have different moves there. So if f+P is a fireball, you can't have that input for a command normal. This puts a pretty distinct limit on how many moves a character can have, which limits how much you can vary your playstyle.
But it would make characters really interesting. You know your opponent has only 8 moves, once you know which ones he has, you can counter. Double inputs still exist, you know, like in tekken
I think I'm fine with a game with no motion inputs, but the depth and skill expression needs to be put somewhere else. Power Rangers is a great example, it has easy inputs but its combos are extremely intricate, they may not be the hardest to execute compared to some other games but at least you have that craziness somewhere else to keep it interesting. From the snippet we saw of Project L, it seems like that game is going in that direction too. Make the tools easy to use, but open ended enough to allow for skill expression and different applications between many use cases. Ekko's rewind and time bomb seem like promising implementations of this.
This 100% Make the difficulty based more on the mix-ups and ideas a player has to have to create actual combos and damage, not on using the moves themselves, there's so many ways to not use motion inputs on modern controllers after all...
@@jeppyjep Yeah, I mean all fighting games need easy characters, whether you're Power Rangers or BlazBlue. I'm fine having characters like Garen or Lux or whatever be easy execution, as long as there's a similarly large amount of characters that are more intricate. The best way in general is to just give every character a basic BnB that anyone can do, and put in freedom of tools and expression to allow for those intricate combos when you get better. Look at KOFXV as an example, most characters can do normal -> command normal -> special, and for a large amount of players that's really all you need to get going. But if you want to learn the intricacies of an Ash Sans-Culotte combo, you can. More games need to embrace this easy to pick up/hard to master mentality, and from what we've seen from snippets of Project L I think the Cannon bros have it on lock. Just look at the complex Darius sample combo they put in, that's the kind of skill expression I want in my games, regardless of whether or not there's motions.
"depth and skill expression needs to be put somewhere else" umm true but thats why it is somewhere else already. Motion inputs are one of the least difficult things about fighting games so can we just stop predenting like its some major thing? In Tekken you can choose a character that dont have them at all but that wouldnt make tekken an easy game. If someone cant overcome tiny barrier of spending 10 minutes and learning dp motion then i doubt if that someone would spent hours learning proper timing, punishes etc
@@cpt.hemorrhage4190 Hey man you're preaching to the choir here. But I have a lot of non FGC friends. You forget how hard it is to get new people into the genre. You have no idea how many people just put down the controller after I tell them to do a quarter circle. Yelling "it's not that hard just do it LOL" isn't too productive either. It might be a trivial thing to you and me, but there's a market for easier stepping stone type games. Smash isn't the most popular fighter in the world for no reason. Plus, no motion inputs is honestly a pretty unexplored design space. There exists a middle ground where both exist. I'll keep playing KOF and BlazBlue but I want to see other games explore new options too.
I remember as a kid the playstation version of VS games had the easy mode where you tap a button twice and a special would come out, it was easier for beginners but it also felt like it limited the combos so i played the normal mode because it felt like it rewarded you more.
I like what NRS has done where you have the option of using quarter circle forward to do moves, or turn off the directional inputs and just go with the Down, Forward motion. However you want to play the game has the option available
Nah bro, what's satisfying is seeing cool stuff on the TV screen, Motion inputs are there cause they have to be for balance, but if the game is built with simple inputs in mind then it can work and still be cool
@@justyourfriendlypebble8943 I could do a hadoken or something simple, and someone would be like “it’s too haaaaard 😭”. Like dude, doing half a circle or a quarter of a circle isn’t that hard
@@justyourfriendlypebble8943 I completely understand that, because I could never do those motion inputs when I was a kid. I get it, so I learned and practiced the inputs then I thought “why do people think this is so hard, and almost impossible to do?”. I’ve had the inputs not work for me depending on the fighting game, don’t get me wrong but the inputs aren’t that hard to do
As a fighting game scrub I actually like motion inputs, there's a feeling of accomplishment in learning a move and being able to implement it in an actual matches. If there's games that want to leave them out then go ahead. I just don't think that they should be removed from fighting games tho.
@@thebassconnection7226 I completely agree. Easier motion inputs will just result in more competent mashers. I played brawlhalla with a friend who doesn't play fighting games, and all he does is rely on special moves. When I punish my him for solely relying on his special moves, he started sulking and stopped playing. Motion inputs give special moves a reason behind using it, you don't just accidentally do it. It's also a natural way of telling players to not rely on it, due to it having a motion behind it, it discourages players to use it over normals. Imo single button specials don't get people into fighting games. If it was me when I started fighting games, I wouldn't quit just because my special was beaten by a normal. Cause I remember working for that move. I remember practicing for an hour to consistently get the motions right. I was glad to simply land it. I still vividly remember the game, on my first day, where I used my motion inputs perfectly to win a comeback. Even though it's technically artificial difficulty, motion inputs were what got me into fighting games. It feels great to see how far I've come, from being completely incapable of doing motion inputs, to doing full combos. I feel that if u don't have the patience to learn motion inputs, then u won't get into fighting games. Cause there's a lot more harder bs to learn after that.
I think the best thing, isn’t the inputs. It’s the timing of said inputs, I think something that guilty gear does really well is slow down time. The time slow down gives you the chance to do all your complex inputs and makes that execution ever so slightly easier
Man when Street Fighter 2 first came out, me and my brother stayed up all night learning the moves. A lot of sore thumbs lol. Learned some quick ways to do some of the moves. Zangief 360 was the hardest for me to learn. And some of double inputs for the super moves were extremely difficult
Nah, for me motion inputs are an integral part of high level fighting games. People dropping combos in the heat of the moment or nailing them in high pressure situations are important.
It's also pretty useless to even suggest that, even on "simpler" games people will find a way to make them complicated just look at smash in general and specially Melee those were intended to be "simple" fun party games
I think that's why DNF DUEL has been so incredibly fun to me. I don't have to worry about those times I occasionally wiff on an input. Also charge characters has always been tough for me to use (playing since the 90s) so there's a whole portion of the roster I can't even enjoy. Having said that, it's satisfying having the flow of inputs connect properly but I can see both sides. Especially after experiencing DNF for the first time
You say that now but will you be playing that game a few years from now. Part of the joy of fighting games is to play against real people and mastering your execution.
@@KillahManjaro smash is considered one of the best fighters of all time with no motion controls. There's no need to gatekeep. People can enjoy and feel rewarded by both.
@@PopularNobody It's not about gatekeeping. Some humans are just better than other humans at some task. I'd rather watch someone who put in the time and learn execution than someone just mashing buttons and don't have to worry about execution and missing an imput. As I said in a previous post. Game developers should put both easy and legacy inputs with easy having cooldown time as well as reduced damage.
i like that idea you had for having both easy inputs for things like dp and also having the original inputs but doing those makes it a stronger version of the move, that was one of my favorite aspects of playing the fighting game characters in smash bros
Setsuka in SC6 actually has this concept built into her kit. And not only does have both option available at all times increase the number of opportunities you can use her special moves it does reward more complex inputs
Call me a “purist” or “hardcore” but I just really don’t want this for fighting games. I don’t want motion inputs to go away. I don’t even have a specific argument or reason for it, it’s just that that’s how it’s always been and it just feels “right” to me and is what I’m used to. As someone who’s been playing fighting games since the early 90’s it would feel really weird if they suddenly just stopped having motions in fighting games. It’s part of what makes fighting games “fighting games”. It’s part of their identity.
I'm a casual who's new to fighting games and I agree with you completely. I can only really do quarter circles, my DPs only work like half the time. Removing motion inputs won't affect me at all but I still wouldn't want them gone. I can't imagine motion inputs being completely eradicated from the genre, it just doesn't feel right. I don't know why some people are so extreme about this topic. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We can have fighting games with simple inputs and fighting games with motion inputs.
I’m going hard no on this. If they remove motion inputs, and just have forward/backward/up/down punch/kick for Specials, that would completely remove unique inputs for Normals like Kyo’s 88 Shiki. Having unique motion inputs just allows for more creativity in the limited design aspect of inputs for moves.
I agree that the main objective should be that players should be using full inputs but I have no problem with them giving the option of both motion and simple inputs. Will bring more players to the game which can only be good and if doing full inputs gives you let’s say 20% more damage or some other benefit I don’t think in any situation a good player will lose to someone mashing buttons but it’ll only teach those players using the easy option to learn full inputs. Accessibility is good!!
That'd be something bad yes i forgot about command normals. Idk in my honest opinions games shouldn't go easier because they want casuals to play it. What's the point on dumbing it down if the casuals still gonna ragequit when he plays a fighting game player? There will be no point in making the games easy. Want casuals? Add more single player stuff for them to stay away from fighting other real players and crying about losing to "try hards" online.
@@hotzauhseFighting games could not exist today if casuals didn’t play them. I think you’d be really surprised if you knew majority of the player base of fighting games are actually casual players
@@tomlahood7421 but by that logic doesn’t that mean that harder fighting games still had casual audiences? Which then means what’s the point In making it even simpler?
I want something between 'lol press 1 button + direction' and 'draw the entire coastline of england + two punch to execute your super' That's the only mode I want.
The simple and technical modes in rev 2 and Cf were always interesting to me simple locked off some of the stuff you could do since it was auto combo but let people just jump in a play a character
I've been playing for about 5 years now. while I do see the point of simple motions, to me fighting games wouldn't feel like fighting games without them you know? not saying they won't be good. but that's just my take. just in case people ask I started with DBFZ then went to GGS and Now play GGS and KOFXV so my inputs have gone from just quarter circles to KOFs weird input system. still love it though
Started with Tekken 5. To me motion inputs are important but only really if the game demands it. I think you can trade motion inputs out for other things. But some games do need motion inputs, but not all of them. I think PotG is a good example, they got rid of them but traded it out for other things that are hard, I actually think PotG is fairly difficult at higher levels. Motion inputs is something everyone can learn as well, it's just a grind. Spacing, footsies, neutral and all that, can not. There are people who in time have great inputs but have a hard time understanding what actually has to be done other than that to win consistently at a higher level. Yeah, I think motion inputs are needed in some cases as mentioned above. Tekken for an example would simply not work without them I think. But let's say Project L? Yeah I think they can replace it with having other things to take its place and it still be just as hard. Another point is in Grand Finals for an example, no one ever loses because they missed an input, okay maybe not ever but *very* rarely. It's other things. You can make those other things more important and advanced if you build the game for that from the get go. But yeah, I love motion inputs. I think I could get into a game without them as well though. If it's *really* well done. Don't just take them away, replace them with *something else* that is hard. *Sorry for the wall of text people.*
If there's something I realized, going from dbfz to kof XV, it's that having more varied motion inputs gives more chances for a variety of moves. Dbfz only has quarter circles, so most characters have the same amount of special moves (about 4). But in XV, along with it's different button layout, characters can vary from having 3 to 8 special moves, possibly more (not to mention the variations of the special moves). I say this as a positive because while definitely more complicated, the inputs mapped to different buttons opens up for more moveset potential. Like imagine if smash WASN'T limited to only 4 special moves.
@@rodrigomorales563 There are forward, back, down, and half circle inputs in DBFZ, it's just not important to do every single time every single combo route. DBFZ also makes up for having not having redundant motion controls by having more execution needed.
The best thing I heard is your suggestion to have universal motions for supers, for all fireballs etc thats a really good idea ✌️ right now, so many people have “a main”. If there would be more universal inputs, people would try out more characters and be a bit more flexible (casual players). myself, I like doing a dp on reaction to anti air, it makes me feel I’m good (uhh not saying I am haha). It feels rewarding. They could give DP anti airs oki while 1 button anti airs dont give a great follow up situation. That would be a decent idea too I think. That also fits your idea of giving reward for meeting a certain skill barrier.
I’ve always loved to watch fgc content but never played until gg strive and I suck at all motion inputs but I feel like fireball and dp motion is fine even if I can’t get it out 40plus percent of the time. As long as any motion you can get after a couple tries in training it makes me personally feel like I can measure me getting better but all the supers seem harder and I wish it was just the same input but additional buttons would be easier. Thanks for your input Max
@@oussamagames4257 I'd imagine you'd get similar complaints if throwing a grenade in an fps was locked behind a 360 camera spin. Would it increase the skill ceiling? Possibly. It definitely affects gameplay. Grenades could be buffed to compensate for the increase in difficulty, so now the strength of this ability is balanced around the input difficulty. I imagine that when casuals start wondering why you have to spin the camera in such a ridiculous way to throw a grenade, we could justify it by saying that the ability would be far too powerful if you could just throw a grenade by pressing a single button. Perhaps some devs might wonder if their games would have a bigger audience if they removed the 360 motion for throwing a grenade. But the hardcore fps gamers really like the feeling of throwing a grenade by spinning the camera. Some might say that having a single button grenade is too powerful. Others will say that if a player isn't willing to spin their camera to throw a grenade, they didn't have the willpower to learn the rest of the game anyways. After all, throwing a grenade is just basic stuff, and spinning the camera isn't even that hard. Just a bit of practice and anyone can do it. Anyone who actually wants to get good will learn to spin. Spinning the camera to throw a grenade is the easiest part of learning an fps. So why are these scrubs complaining about having to spin the camera to throw a grenade?
The funny thing is, Street Fighter *did* have a history of at least once simplifying inputs, and it's in the mobile version of SF4; motion inputs still exist, but mostly for EXs. Funniest thing is, this actually became a significant gateway for me to Street Fighter, MvC2, and a whole helluva lot of 2D fighters that I eventually fell in love with.
Tbh, dbfz on the Nintendo switch has that option as an exclusive feature and no one took advantaged of it. But It's definitely not a good idea for everyone to do the inputs with zero effort or practice *(SCARY ASF OMFG)* , by then I'll and many others will quit playing the game cuz there is no kind of skill being used while playing it.
@@MetaGamingDojo Idk why inputs have to be this gating thing. If you like it cool but personally to me all fighting games should have simplified 1 directional inputs as an option WITH NO DISADVANTAGE. It is fucking lame knowing you get a dmg taken/dmg done disadvantage for a 1 button guarding or 1 directional input special. That isn't a fun experience. Fun is the main goal of games not dick waving because you can remember/press certain buttons better than most. Input like that to me is just a gate keeping them from fighting games having a much much bigger casual base.
What about doing inputs like Terry in smash? all specials easy input and supers are locked to harder inputs . That way casuals can play and do fun things but if they want to do bigger damage combos then it's time to learn how to do inputs 🐥
Something funny: don't know if it's true, but I remember reading somewhere that George Kamitani left Capcom and found Vanillaware in order to, among other things, demonstrate that it's possible to make deep action games without complicated motion inputs, and one of the first things that I noticed when playing the HD remaster of Odin Sphere was that they give you an option to map psypher skills, ie. special moves, to motion inputs such as quarter circles and half circles...
I love Odin Sphere Leifthrasir and will *always* recommend people to get and try that game out (it's actually currently on sale for $17.99 until April 28 on the PS Store) because there's so many great and unique ideas there alongside such a beautifully well-written story that it tells. I'm still waiting/hoping for the day that Vanillaware makes a fighting game, because I really think they could come up with something so special that shakes things up because Kamitani and his crew there really do just get it when it comes to intertwining art in game design via memorable character design and aesthetics that blow you away, but has fun gameplay (they take criticism to heart and vastly go back and improve anything that people felt could've been done better), and tell great stories. A fighting game--especially nowadays--could quite frankly thrive by using that kind of attention to detail like they pride themselves on. I don't even know if I'd want a Vanillaware crossover game or something original, which I think is the most exciting thing about their work, in that I actually wouldn't feel let down or something with one decision over the other, since both have the potential to be amazing.
To be fai, quarter circles are as easy s it gets, anything else from an outsider perspective in today's gaming landscapes and controllers feels just like extra steps to obtain the same result. I dunno, maybe it's just because the mo games i always played in my kife didn't take in account input as part of balancing but exclusively math, take any fps or hack'n slash, outside of frame perfect reloads and the likes(star wars battlefront, dmc, etc), i can't think of any game that has something akin to motion inputs other than fighting games, and especially none tat uses those as part of the balancing.
Having a game made around simple specials and/or adding depth in other areas (BFTG having advanced ground movement and open ended combo system) can be fine.
I'm sort of new to fighting games, but one thing that hinders me from going online or even playing certain characters is when I realize that can't properly do inputs offline on the d-pad of my controller. There nothing more frustrating that a jumping opponent, knowing that you can DP but doing the incorrect motion bc you fat fingered. Personally, I think easy DPs can work, bc there's air blocking and baiting the DP.
Chun-Li in SFV actually has a mechanic on her Hyakuretsukyaku where it has two different inputs, one being a qcf and the other being a piano input. I could see this being a solution to getting casual players in. Something like an SPD on Zangief could have an alternate easier input that lowers the damage or doesn't give oki. It's like giving a new player free samples of the moves on a character they like to get them interested in learning the actual move
Honestly, it's more of an issue that most fighting games assume you already know motion inputs. No, if you're a brand new fighting game player you won't know your quarter circles from your dragon punches. Very few games actually teach this. We can keep the more advanced inputs. We just need to teach people better and make it more accessible.
As a relatively new player to fighting games I think the circle motions and shrouken inputs are fine and I wouldn't really want it to be to simple it kinda takes away the fun. I would say for new players going into fighting games generally the problem would be at least in my opinion would be input windows from converting into stuff rather then the inputs themselves.
The only reason I'm not so keen on having both Montion and simple inputs in the game is because ~ even though games have tried this, it hasn't really gone anywhere. Even though they give people the added benefit of using the motion inputs, the reward is very small to where people don't even bother using the motion inputs And then there's the issue of motion inputs vs simple inputs when it comes to how simplified it makes the game in terms of things like an anti air Dp or fireball spam or even one button supers Because what usually made those things rewarding to land was how hard they were to execute, sometimes doing the dp motion or the quarter circle forward motion to react to something in a tough situation is clutch af
I like simple inputs, but with a few motions. Quarter-circles are easy enough to do, so I don't see too much point in losing those in particular. But because fighting games are about reactions, predictions, and positioning, I think simplified inputs let people focus more on the game itself than fine-tuning mechanical capability. As we've seen with plenty of fighting game characters, you can add complexity and depth without having to have crazy inputs.
This is honestly an interesting thing to discuss imo. Because I do agree execution is certainly a barrier of entry in fighting games for something as simple as a hadouken or shoryuken (I remember HATING SRK motions when I was a kid because I couldn't comprehend them at the time) But I think this should be for new games. Doing it for legacy games like SF or Guilty Gear would cause too much of a divide. But if it's a new game, it can be accepted more. However, the lack of motion input execution should have something else make up for it. I know some games tried to mix easy inputs with traditional ones like GBVS and DNF Duel. But one set of games I think are great examples of this are the last 3 set of Touhou fighters, "Hopeless Masquerade", "Urband Legend in Limbo", and "Antinomy of Common Flowers". They all have simplified inputs where it's just direction+button to execute, and it works well. Of course, this was done more because of the nature of the games being all airborne so motions would be weird in this setting. However, to make up for this, the combos are less on motion execution, and more on quicker timing. There was also still harder tech to learn like tri dashing which was essential for some characters and their combos, which still makes them hard. Think of anime fg combos but with the simplified inputs so you don't have to worry about dropping just because you didn't do SRK/623 motions fast enough. I think it's perfectly well done and you still feel great for landing combos. And casuals enjoy it because they can shoot projectiles and specials easily. It's basically like what Smash achieved of low barrier, high ceiling. Of course, there's other things to consider, like how projectiles are easy to get around (you can dash through them), DPs exists, but are either slow or even easier to bait. So yeah, I think simpler controls can absolutely work, as long as it's compensated in some way. And of course, not on legacy fighters.
Have you considered Smash Bro approach to mixed simple and motion inputs? Granted you don't need to keep the part about how hard you press the button but the concept is simple and should make sense to try on others. Simple will give a basic but viable move but motion will give you a stronger, faster move. Add variation with Low/middle/heavy or speed and range and you get a good mix of options even from a simple shoto.
@@ruga-ventoj That is an option and I'm fine with it, though my point was more on creating NEW games revolving around the simple inputs and having execution be elsewhere. And I don't mean specifically timed links either like SF4 had a ton of (a lot of people hated it because it felt like it created a ton of artificial difficulty, something SFV got rid of). I know Rising Thunder did this and apparently it was well received, and Max also mentioned Power Rangers Battle of the Grid. I think Power Rangers is another perfect example of still having hard to execute combos, while the ACCESS to your movelist is still easy to use for low level players. Of course not everyone will agree with this. It is a touchy topic. Some people find gratification on inputting the motions. I understand that too. But playing the latest Touhou fighters showed me that having "complex" motion inputs isn't needed to have fun with execution. I'm all in for it as long as the legacy fighters remain unchanged because they have too much legacy on them that it wouldn't be the same without their traditional inputs. But for any new fighters out there, go all out.
@@Gpop119 I agree, simple inputs like Power Rangers is great because it helps people explore the typically large cast a tag team game has. Like MVC3, simple buttons allow people to try others and find their specific combo for personal Expression.
@@Gpop119 the thing is people also think that hard combos are a barrier for newcomers. So should we get rid of motion inputs and hard combos? Should we implement one button for specials and supers and autocombos?
personally i feel like there should be extra moves that use one direction and a special button but also have the motion moves be the moves that do more damage and or allow combos to happen or have the motion inputs be the ex versions of the single direction moves
for me the normal inputs is that spicy that I like in fighting games, I like to mark the crescent, be prepared to mark the shoryu etc in GG rev 2 there was the simple command option and I tried it for fun with characters that I liked they were difficult to control, but I did not feel that satisfaction of marking the commands, it is like eating without savoring the food
I loved FighterZ approach of just making every input Quarter-circles. None of the insane single player thumb Twister like in KOF, and still satisfying to pull off. Makes it easier to remember move lists for different characters, too.
less motion diversity makes it harder to remember for me personally I have 200 hours in Fighterz as a Cooler main and I honestly tend to forget if his divekick is forward or backward quarter circles for a moment lol
I'll admit I'm a total noob/casual player when it comes to fighting games and to me, the biggest hurdle a lot of fighting games introduce is with how they label their buttons. Rather than having something like "half quarter circle + triangle", they have it like "half quarter circle + mp". I know that to people who've been playing fighting games for years, this is second nature. For someone like me, it really does twist my brain when it's time to recall inputs in a combo string. Looking for guides online is even worse. Some of them have that numbering system for directional inputs which is even more demanding for people who aren't that in tune with how they should be translating that into actual inputs. I literally have to sit down and transcribe what I'm seeing, at which point it just isn't fun anymore and I end up dropping the game entirely. It's fine to keep motion inputs, but there has to be a way to switch your LP, MP, HP inputs into the actual buttons on your controller. I know some games allow you to do that, but not all of them do.
Yeah, I don't get why some games do that. Though I have a feeling them saying imput+MP rather than triangle or something is to make the game easier to read across systems. because the game is on multiple systems and not everyone's button layout stays the same. Tekken thankfully shows you the actual button instead of words that don't match the buttons. However, people refer to the buttons as numbers online, which never made sense to me personally. Especially the ones for directions.
Not everyone is playing on PS, so they need to make terms that can be understood to all players. Literally just take time to learn them, it's not hard.
@@mr.soystein7849 I knew one of these comments would pop up sooner or later. The utter garbage of the internet that doesn't really add anything to the discussion. I'm not talking about eliminating what they already have. I'm talking about adding an option you can toggle on and off to show the buttons on your controller. That's all.
@@jidenshaotoko i did gave you an advice; take some time to learn and memorize them. It's not rocket science. You won't die or be hunted for life if you don't understand them for a month or so. If you can't even do that, then that says something about you.
@@mr.soystein7849 No, you didn't and I didn't ask for one either. "I'm a total noob/casual player" pretty much sums up the level of commitment I'm willing to dedicate to fighting games. People on PC play with a variety of controllers other than arcade sticks. Button overlays would help in those scenarios too. It's an extra option that won't take anything away from anyone.
part of the reason dp motion even exist is for balance, like, if you want to do a dp, you need to stop guarding and "go forward". the reward is not for the difficulty of the motion, but for the risk taken of walking towards the opponent.
It'd be interesting for a game to have some complex or hard to use but rewarded characters to use motion inputs while keeping basic characters with simple inputs
Something that I like about DFO, the rpg not the fighting game, is that when you use motions instead of hotkeys, there's always a benefit to it, such as a much lower cooldown, higher damage, greater AoE, etc. I'd like it if fighting games implemented something akin to this, so there's incentive to learn motion controls instead of single-button combos.
I can definitely get behind the idea of trying to remove the shoryuken movement, but I really don't know how they'd do it well. I get so many accidental DPs when just wanting to stop moving forward then throw out the fireball motion. When actual fireballs it's usually alright, but say Chipp in Strive? Rush in and apply pressure with his qcf and get DP? Literally had to drop the character because in the heat of the moment I can't wait between my dash in and my qcf motion to drop that original forward, and accidental DPs will lose you entire games on someone like Chipp. Same story with Cammy, getting accidental cannon spikes when wanting spiral arrow. Only really a particular issue if wanting to EX sprial arrow to punish a fireball or something, but when it messed me up, it messed me up.
I would take the direction of FighterZ just keep Half and Quarter Circles but scrap Z/DP-motion. but like Max said here, Simple inputs { example forward + B } can co-exist with motion inputs but give those inputs more reward { more damage, invincibility frames, speed etc. }
I feel like, as a noob myself, having something like sf5’s “shortcuts” for inputs, like 636 for DP or others, along actual inputs could be really helpful to at least help new players learn how to play and then decide if use the shortcuts or the actual inputs, especially for double qcf/qcb, I’m struggling right now, sure less and less but at the beginning it was a problem, in guilty gear but the way sf5 implements it, qcb k qcb k example for juri, really helped me
sf5’s shortcuts and simplified inputs are not even close to being the same thing. shortcut inputs just allow you to do the input faster and with more clarity. 232 is a faster input than dp on reaction. an input like 22 is designed to be easier to execute and understand than dp, despite generally having the same function. 22 scares away less casuals.
Personally I will always be on the side of more options. Include a simpler system, add a "Classic" lobby, whatever. If it puts the games in more hands that's a good thing.
Yes. I'm always on the side of motion inputs being necessary for FGs, but where I draw the line is when motion inputs have to be perfect to play the character correctly. I have a gripe with Tekken because there are some characters that require just frame inputs to be able to utilize them correctly, and it honestly just acts as a gatekeep for good players who just have a difficult time doing the just frames.
Give the option. Simple input for normal versions of specials. Traditional inputs have different characteristics. So it allows people to jump in and a learning curve for mastering. Bonus points if the simple versions have characteristics that provide benefits that the traditional doesnt have i.e less damage but more control/ more stun etc.
It completely depends on the design of the game. In smash it makes sense because of all the other variables at play, especially analog aerial control. Motion inputs would weigh it down in terms of speed, but also because you're constantly using the stick to fine tune your movement. There's other execution that fills the skill ceiling. Some tech ends up being like a motion input anyway. Like a shine turnaround back air in Melee. Smash attacks are also fine as simple inputs because there is delay built into the move and they're generally unsafe. Traditional fighters, totally different story. You'd have to balance specials to make them less useful in some way if they're a button press. I do think crazy pretzel motions and what not are just unnecessary though. I'm good with doing half circles on pad. But anything more than that just feels like shit to me even when I pull it off. The delay from starting the input to finishing it becomes jarring and makes me feel detached from my character in a bad way. But that's just me.
Obvious way is to just implement what Smash already does: differentiate between "partial tilt" and "full tilt", with corresponding increased delay on full tilts. On top of that, could also implement a small delay for "full tilt" to be registered as such, simulating the normal delay of doing motion inputs. The move wouldn't be changed mechanically between such for consistency, but could mean the difference between a weak and strong attack outright. EDIT: Yes I know in Smash a "full tilt" is called a smash attack.
@@sinteleon nobody wants a delayed Dragon Punch. It defeats the point of it being both an anti-air and an invincible reversal. This does not solve the problem at all.
They should always have it be an option. Removing them altogether almost exiles people who have been using them forever. It's like if you've been a driver for 20 years, using a steering wheel and pedals and maybe even a shifter, and then all of a sudden the car companies change controlling vehicles to joystick. You'd have to relearn it entirely and that muscle memory you've built on the old way of driving cars would hinder that. Because of this change, you'd see a large drop in sales of new cars. The same exact thing would happen with games.
well the difference between these 2 is that no motion inputs is rather easier then having them. it would more be all that hard work gone to waste. I'd say a better comparison would be you just learned how to drive and then like a year later all cars self drive. all that time you learned to drive would have been wasted but things would be easier
I think a better comparison is automatic and manual transmission for cars, especially hearing people complaining about new sports cars not having manual transmission. The thing about removing motion inputs is that it's supposed to be easy to pick up and learn, which will apply to skilled players as well. Same as automatic transmission, but car purists will still want to drive manual for better performance and control, on top of simply more fun factor. Casual players and drivers are going to want a smoother experience, and hardcore drivers/players will be able to pick it up just fine, but if that replaces the original, more complicated but hands-on experience then enthusiasts aren't going to be happy.
When Super Street Fighter was released on the GBA it had a simplified mode by pressing select, and you could do Sonic Boom just pressing forward plus attack button and it worked well especially for supers, on 3ds it worked well but as Max said that made Guile unbeatable, there has to be a balance between accessibility and ease of access IMO.
These are probably the only thing that keep me from getting into most fighting games. DBFZ had the right idea because I'm not fighting the controls because they're so consistent. Also I find motion inputs easier to do with a stick but I find moving the character easier with the d-pad on most modern controllers. Trying to move and do an input at the same time feels awful.
If command inputs are getting you down, I highly recommend Fantasy Strike. The movesets are definitely simplified even compared to something like DBFZ or GG Strive, but the moves themselves have enough depth that the game is still interesting and you can find multiple ways to use the same move. It's a great game to learn about stuff like spacing, setplay, and learning to recognize and deal with 50-50s. It's also completely free to play, so no risk if you don't like it.
@@webbowser8834 I've heard a lot of how GG Strive is easy to get into, but every time I play it I try to play it like Xrd so it just feels clunky by comparison. I understand that's by design but it's not quite my thing because I'm more into the crazy combo stuff, those are at least fun to play around with in training mode.
@@D1ab0lical Ah, yeah, then Strive and Fantasy Strike are probably not for you. Have you tried Power Rangers Battle for the Grid? I've heard that one is actually really solid.
It has a certain magic. If a serie is known with motion imput and you take that out... I believe you will ruin it's magic. No fun if a newcomer can execute all the high level stuff without really trying. The fun lies in the journey of getting good. So I appreciate the higher level of skills required to do some things. Feels more rewarding.
Allowing newcomers to actually be able to do the moves without additional learning beyond how to push a button is not going to make them able to "execute all the high level stuff without really trying." High-level play does not come down to being able to execute the moves - that'd be a pretty sorry "high level" if that's all it was about.
@@Zevox87 It’s less about executing the moves themselves and more about executing them under pressure. If you take away all the pressure of doing the correct inputs for a move then lots of things become way less exciting. If you could just press a button for a shoryuken it would be a lot less satisfying than reacting to the jump in with the full input and motion.
I think its very fun if a new comer can execute all the highly level moves, all that leaves now is actually knowing how to play the game and predicting your opponent which should be where the main skill lies. Artificially high skill floors feel pretty bad.
Absolutely agree. The two options can exist and Granblue it's the perfect example of making the motion rewards you. The good idea is this kind of progression, it has to be a level up skill stuff making you better when you step one option to another, like learning to personal improvement. Max I love your lasts videos.
Until it was cancelled, I was really looking forward to Rising Thunder. RT showed in a big way that you could 100% make a fun fighting game without motion inputs. I liked playing RT online because not having to do the motion inputs gave my inexperienced ass more room to think about what my opponent wanted to do and how I could outplay them.
While I like playing Smash for the simplicity of the inputs which makes me feel in control of my character, I started to respect motion inputs more while playing KOF XV. I do quite agree with the whole idea of rewarding motion inputs versus simple inputs (like Smash did).
6:31 Yeah this is basically Terry in Smash Ultimate, you can just do the special moves by pressing Special + Direction, or you can input the motions for the moves and they'll be more powerful.
Yeah this is how I feel but I actually feel this way with inputs like this in general. Symphony of the night for example has motion inputs for special attacks and I think they are fucking impossible to pull off consistently and it makes me frustrated. It really depends on the game and how they execute them, and I just personally don't like them as much
@@blackpants7385 yeah that's the problem it's game specific. I just would rather button combinations like what Rare did way back on the N64 for their games since stick drift is a bigger problem nowadays for controllers
No. We already have games with autocombos, no inputs, easy inputs, and characters with no inputs in games that have motion inputs. F2p and motionless input games won't rescue fighting games. 1v1 will always scare off casuals. Stop trying to pander to ppl who aren't going to learn the game no matter how "accessible" you try to make games. Comeback mechanics, RPS mechanics and even p2w DLC and none of it works. Stop trying to appeal to an imaginary audience that's hyper competitive but are afraid of motion inputs. They're going to get just as tilted when they get mixed up, block and whiff punish, turtled, space out and timed out.
@@TheMainAntagonist autocombos. Annnnnd still casuals get tilted and stop playing. What arguement is there to have left. Devs have tried everything and ppl are still getting salty, scrubby and too bitch made to stick with any game. Read my previous post. We already have games with autocombos, easy inputs, no inputs and no input characters in legacy games. Street Fighter has Ed and Falke. Tekken 7 has Kazumi and Shaheen as easy no input characters. They're boring, no one likes them but you know which characters ppl like the most? The more technical characters. Shocking i know. Enough is enough. That guy at the AT&T tournament clowned SFV, the genre and yall still want to pander to ppl like him. Pathetic. FIGHTING GAMES WILL NEVER BE MAINSTREAM OR A 6 FIGURE ESPORT PROFESSION. GET OVER IT.
@@TheMainAntagonist accessibility seems like it could be the slow death of fighting games if they focus too hard on bringing in a new/casual crowd. I’m never one to gate-keep or just be like “git Gud scrub” but there really losing the fighting game spirit if everything is simple motions. I remember first learning how to DP and the amount of achievement I felt in being able to consistently do it to anti-air
@@thatlonzoguy exactly. MK11 sells 12 million copies as is one of the top selling franchises period. Tekken 7 sells over 8 million copies and Harada said it surpassed Tekken 3 in sales. SFV is the most profitable street fighter game. Stop cucking yourself to an imaginary audience that's hesitant to try fighting games. THEY DONT EXIST. This genre is niche because the rest of want to work for our fun not because of our finger dexterity. Stop it.
This is just an aside but while some people had issues with DP motions I learned how to do DPs and 360s on a keyboard. I am fine with simple controls but not to the exclusion of motions.
If motion inputs were to be removed, the concept of the special move would have to be completely remade from the ground up. The reason inputs were created was so that more powerful moves wouldn't be spammed and abused without actual dexterity and skill. The people that call them barriers of entry are absolutely right, and that is a good thing. Imagine if Guile can do a sonic boom or flash kick whenever he wanted with a single button press. It would be great for the Guile player and hell for everyone else.
So even with an A.I. bot like speed, a sonic boom can only be thrown out after so many seconds of charging. Lets say, one sonic boom every 2 seconds for example. So then if a sonic boom was a one button input, it would need a 2 second cooldown (or whatever the devs deemed fair), almost like a League of Legends skill. I can see that working tbh.
So if you wanna see what single button flash kick feels like, try out Geiger from Fantasy Strike. He's definitely strong to be sure, had to eat one of the bigger nerfs in the game's history in the form of a full super rework, but I don't really find him overbearing due to the way they implemented the charge mechanic. The fact he can't just walk forward and flash kick you gives him an actual weakness that you can exploit, making him very different from SF 3DS Guile. In fact most of the game's DPs have glaring weaknesses. Grave's has a ton of startup, Jaina's causes her to take non-lethal damage on use, Midori's is grabable, 1 button specials pretty much required the game to be built around the fact that a special can be thrown out with the same ease as a normal. Personally I like that, and Fantasy Strike was one of the things that got me actually playing fighting games.
It'd be hell for everyone else because you get rid of the charge time that keeps Guile in check. A single button press is not that different from any one of the thousands of players for which DP or QCF is 2nd nature (i.e. Shoryuken spam). These "barriers to entry" matter less and less to balance as players go up the chain and what ultimately matters is frame+hitbox data
The only problem I've ever had with motion inputs is sometimes diagonals dont read, but games like MK dont have diagonals, so i rarely drop an input. For me id say just get rid of the diagonal inputs. Fire ball becomes 2>6 P Instead of 2>3>6 P. DP would be 6>2>6 P From 6>2>3 P
Most fighting games already have that. That's the reason why most pro players will tell you to find how much you can shorten your inputs while still getting the move.
Each button usually serves a purpose. With less buttons some of the will have to do several things(button + detection)that will actually make things harder
this is exactly what's wrong with fighting games right now. companies try to cater to casuals, to get a new audience, and the casuals don't even know that there are other options than street fighter. there are plenty of games with 4 buttons, there are a handful of games without motion controls. why mess with existing games (which a lot of people enjoy the way they are) when there are already games with these options and casuals still don't play them?
I think the best compromise would be to include both a motion input and non motion system. Fighting EX Layer did this with allowing the player to select between classic input and progressive input so its completely up to the player how they want to play it.
I think motion inputs are part of the appeal of fighting games. It's part of what makes them special. Please keep them, and I would say to designers to experiment with motion inputs more, like Goldlewis' in GGST.
Any core design feature of a game is "part of what makes it special". I get you like that special, but replacing it with a different kind of special, still keeps it special. And also makes it more playable on something like a keyboard. Any game designed around it can keep it, and it makes sense to keep making games like it. It also makes sense to make some games different. They aren't less special because of that.
I think it could work if they did it like ken and ryu in smash ultimate where the motion input specials do more damage and give them slightly better frame data from the simplified specials
Vesperarcade has an amazing video, that's surprising Short, that indicates why we need inputS. At the end of the day, besides autocorrecting and other effects, inputs create a system where higher rewarding moves take a little bit longer to come out. It's not to make the games hard, it's to make sure that there's isn't a gane where a dragon punch is always the best option when you are faced with a short jump and have 2MP.
I was just talking about this yesterday. I think they need to make Casual inputs and Competitive inputs in the same game. Because a part of the prestige of being a top tier competitive player is mastery of a character's complex moveset. A part of being a casual is being able to pick up the game and play without committing your life to the time investments required for motion based inputs. So by offering two separate inputs they can open the door to both casual and competitive players. Naturally with competitive input being a prerequisite for tournaments etc. There are characters that can become totally broken and imbalanced when their high damage inputs are too simple. A part of the risk/reward dynamic for some characters is lost when the inputs are made too simple. So I think both should exist.
While I see the point you're saying, I think it's up to the discretion of the developer, and not EVERY game will be for every player. I don't like souls games. I don't wanna get stress acne from playing a game, but I won't demand that they make the game easier for me. Just like how I wouldn't demand Robert Eggers or Ari Aster to make less cryptic weird movies so I can understand them better.
That's what I think as well. give the player the option to choose inputs like CVS2 grooves. They just have to make sure motion input players deal more damage because of the harder excution. 20% more damage.
@@daynieldeguzman4044 But fighting games aren't like Dark Souls games. Dark Souls games are made to be beaten, and most people just play it once then drop it (not that that's a bad thing, I love Fromesoft games). Fighting games are very community based and need a constant interest since they sell so little compared to other genres. Allowing more people to enter by starting with a casual mode could be a good thing. I can easily see a group of casual friends playing on casual mode, getting hooked in a way they wouldn't have otherwise, then eventually switching to competitive when they feel they've got the basics down. This could be a really good way of expanding the community.
Actually I’m pretty sure Fighting EX Layer has the option to either play using a simplified move set without motion inputs and one with motion inputs. I’d still prefer motion inputs though. To me, motion inputs are kinda necessary. Especially when it comes to damaging moves, like when I learnt how to do the raging storm or flash explosion, it felt like the damage was earned with the motion inputs, if that makes sense.
@@JadeyedGrey Next people are going to want Akuma demon by pressing 2 punch and one kick buttons. I'm not the greatest at excution but I love doing the hard imputs, makes me feeling I'm doing something.
I've been playing fighting games since I was a kid (I'm 31), and I never had any problems with inputs...up until the Dual Shock 4. The Dual Shock 3 was the last controller that I could use easily without a problem, never miss a dp, a double quarter circle, or whatever. From the Dual Shock 4 onwards, it's hot garbage, I miss inputs with a frequency that I cannot accept, and it's so frustrating. I now play on PC and the best I could get was the Xbox Series X controller, and that's still hot garbage compared to what dual shocks 1 through 3 were like. So it's been years since I felt I could enjoy fighting games to the fullest, because it's so lame knowing that you should be able to do the stuff you're supposed to, but you can't because you now only have shit tools to work with. So I ended up picking up Fantasy Strike and that is the only game that I can play right now where I feel I'm not having an artificial barrier to my abilities before I can even dive into the game. And in case someone is wondering, no, I didn't stay a long time without playing or anything that could justify my difficulties, it's the damn controller. Case in point, I remember playing SFIV with 2 different friends back in the day, one had a ps3 and the other had an xbox 360, I played fine on the ps3, and would miss stuff all the time on the 360 because the controller was so much worse. Does anyone know if there's a PC compatible controller that has a d-pad as good as the ones on the dual shocks 1 through 3?
Get a fight stick? Then you won’t have that issue anymore. Now if you have no desire to learn fight stick then I guess there is no true solution other then adapters.
Btw, I kinda got lost along my own train of thought there, but I was about to make a point that random motives for different people can justify "easier inputs" to at least exist in some capacity. That was just my personal one.
@@Junuman1 The only problem is I live in Brazil, we have draconian import taxes, a high end fighting stick ends up costing like the equivalent of roughly 1400 dollars. About 7.000 brazilian reais, that's like almost 6 times minimum wage around here. I bought a Qanba Drone for relatively cheap but I haven't yet got the time to try it out properly. Let's see if I get used to it. First impressions weren't that great. And I did learn to play fighting games and motion inputs on arcades before I learned it on the d-pad waaay back, so it's not that I'm completely unfamiliar with arcade sticks or anything like that, not at all actually.
@@DiegoDeschain that is unfortunate. Though I think with the stick you have, you just gotta play with it for a year or so and get comfortable with it. Once it feels second nature again, you can really work on the fine tuning of things and find you might enjoy it more then d pad. I learned playing with stick as I got more use to it was a blast and had a lot less hand cramping or finger injuries.
Well what if fighting game simplify its controls light how it was showed in the league of legends fighting game? That way it works out for both fighting styles?
A big part for me in fighting games was that it was fun pulling all sorts of combos or conversions with all sorts of inputs. So I would definitely rather playing a fighting games with the "technical inputs". I can accept the simple inputs though, But a by product of this is just something that I learned that I will never accept, And really kills my mood on a game is 1 button DP (or reversal). Every person I know who plays fighting games expressed grief about the matter, it really sucks that DNF has that because other then that I really liked the game :( I really hope that concept will never show light again in any fighting game again. FYI, im really down with Ed and Falke in SFV, Because I know that its just "their thing", And that does not dictate the entire game.
I think motion inputs are fine if they serve a good purpose. For me, the two main reasons to have them are: 1) To give certain special moves restrictions. (Example: Most charge moves cannot be used moving forward.) 2) To allow for more moves without adding extra buttons. Adding motion inputs just for the sake of "tradition" seems very shallow to me.
This is a good post because it goes into specific and good reasons to have motion inputs for some moves. Many of the comments I'm seeing here are about motion inputs providing an execution barrier for new people but not explaining why there should be one. I think the fact of the matter is, most motion inputs are probably one of the easier parts of most fighting games. Getting the timing, spacing, knowledge of frame data ,etc. - that's much harder than being able to do a half-circle input. I feel like an input should be an input for an actual reason beyond "it is harder to do and therefore more rewarding." Like, I could strap a dumbbell to my controller and it would make games harder but I don't think we should all do that, nor do I think just because folks have been doing it for 20 years that it's a good tradition. I think games have different ways of handling points 1 and 2. It's very strange to see folks talking about some sort of fighting game apocalypse if someone new can sit down and throw a dragon punch in their first game. A lot of fighting games that we all know and love have been simplifying what the game recognizes as a valid input for these moves on the backend for years (or decades) now and things have been just fine.
From a person who plays both traditional fighters and smash, both have their strength and weaknesses. I think motion control there is an execution barrier for beginner, but if we are being honest for most specials they are not that hard execute for most people. You can drop combo, or not execute the special if you miss the inputs. The great things about motion controls is it rewards more for practicing in training mode, it gives you more precise control of your character, and you might get advance options with motion control like option select or negative edge. Non-motion/simple inputs are great for execution especially for beginners and can make combo easier. The problem with non-motion is that in high levels miss input is still a problem and can be worst because the input for special is too simple. The amount of specials a characters can have might be limited. Depending on the game design it might game too controlled/tight and bland.
My position is that they should keep motion inputs but also have an option to use one button specials at the cost of meter, so if you have an issue using something like DP you can instead use meter to use it, or if a super cost half a bar of meter with the input you can make it cost the full meter or 75% with a one button super.
@@RuhabDabeer yeah and then nobody would even worry about trying to learn. Shit im gdlk because i can do 80% by just pressing >B vC vvC and >A and the person been playing the game for 5 minutes. That's one of the reasons i don't like Power Rangers every character can do a TOD out of just ANY HIT and all you do is jump A >B and repeat till they're dead. I want to work for my wins. Maybe im too old school.
I feel like there‘s a place in fighting games for no motion inputs, but not every fighting game has to abandon motions. Maybe some inputs like 360 motions can be phased out supers can have mostly-standardized motions, but that’s about it. Specific characters with no motion inputs like Ed & Falke would be cool, too.
I hate that we have to cater to the entitlement of this generation of gamers. “I want to skip straight to the doing cool looking stuff in fighting games without putting in the time it takes to learn how to do cool looking stuff”.
