I am rewriting this as it is buried in a reply and wld love an answer. This is late. I love your videos. Your love and passion for all things Leica comes through and as a non user it is very relaxing and fun to watch them when I have time. Thank you! Now my Q; I love the soul of the Leica M system, the small sizes and quality of the fast M lenses and the whole process of shooting and focusing. I learned on an all manual Pratika film SLR camera and shot B&W as a teen as it was cheaper and I had no money. So as an adult, the M10R was the obvious camera for me to try. But the light metering when using the rangefinder (the whole point of the camera IMHO) and constant highlight clipping (maybe worse on the monochromes) did my head in. I don’t want to spend my life in post correcting deliberately underexposed images. I shoot JPEG and RAW. I want to get some decent out of camera output, share my unprocessed JPEGs and only process my best RAW images. I don’t have time and don’t want to sit behind a screen boosting shadows in underexposed images to avoid the blown highlight problem. I think this is a big problem with the M10R when using the rangefinder as I understand this is mitigated when using LV. But using the rangefinder is the whole point of this camera IMHO. I understand Leica have addressed this in the M11. The Fuji “rangefinder style” medium format camera I am now with seems to significantly outperform here. Thoughts?
I love the fact that Josh and David are not trying to sell the new editions, Lenses, Bodies, Etc. They just give an honest opinion from their experience. When you have the "Why", not just "Yeah, It's new, More Megapixels is always good" You can make an educated decisions not based on hype. For example: As an M10 shooter, I asked in the M meeting a few weeks ago "Would a Q give me benefits?" and they convinced me to buy a Q116 as well, And I am grateful and very happy. For me, It made perfect sense to my USE CASES, As David mentions a few times here.
I realy love to listen to your talk and I applaud you doing them. I disagree with your comment regarding critcality of focus depending on sensor resolution. The focus just depends on your abilitiy to nail it in the rangefinder and correct calibration of the lenses. If the eye is in focus with your lens providing e.g.3mm dof it does not matter on which kind of digital sensor it is projected on. It simply does not matter how many pixels the sensor has to show this 3mm. It just enables you to print or display it at bigger size. I am happy you prove me to be wrong.
Great discussion on the M10-R. And despite the fact that I have little to no interest in digital photography (I'm more than happy with my 'antiquated' M-A and M4), it's always enjoyable to hear about the latest developments from Leica from two authorities on the subject. Looking forward to the 50mm episode in a couple of weeks as I'm looking to add a 50 to my kit.
Dave gives good in depth answers that I want to hear... when I pay $8K plus for a camera, I want to know the nuts and bolts... Josh shuts him down far too often when he does this... prime example is 22:50 .. Let him finish! I want to hear the details, let the video run for 3 hours for all I care, what else do I have to do during Covid???
I think you did a truly exceptional job of explaining and illustrating reproduction ratios, the use of the macro adapter on the Leica M (with Live View). All in a fairly succinct 20 minutes. Really, really well done.
Guys great show! My take-away is that if I spend $40,000 on bodies and who know what for lenses I can do almost anything. The “”but” for me is that then I would have to review 5 episodes of Red dot forum to know I have the exact combination that maximizes my shooting experience for that shoot.😍 just kidding, but by the same token when you guys retire you could start a AAA type shoot planning consulting service..
The struggle is real. With such a capable range of cameras and lenses, both of the current generation and of earlier ones, Leica isn't making it easy to choose. These are good problems to have. I remember not too long ago when digital cameras were just in their infancy that you anxiously awaited the next release to be usable above base ISO or good enough for a decent sized print. And having discussions on lenses that centered around trying five or six lenses to 'find a good copy.' Now, all the cameras can turn out insanely good quality and offer incredible low light performance. And Leica keeps turning out lens choices with each one impressing more than the last.
1:10:00 this explanation of the difference between M and SL explains why the M adaptor is larger than you'd think, i guess to convert the light from M lenses to the more telecentric needed for the sensor to pick up
Useful tidbits, as I re-watch this, on the First of January, 2024. Thanks! I plan to keep using my original-version M10 and M Type 246 cameras indefinitely, but, each January, it seems, I do contemplate the potential of newer cameras and lenses. The longer bulb exposure times available, at the various ISO settings, with the M10-R, for night shots, has become an apparent reason to consider an M10-R. The better preservation of highlights would be a value-added bonus. These factors are independent of the 40MP resolution, which I do not feel that I need.
There was a comment made during live chat regarding Peter Karbe video on lenses. Sure, he is awesome. We all love him. After all he designed the lenses. But for me at least his presentation is hard to follow due to the language gap. Your videos are really fun to watch because you guys have great chemistry and that is super important in a talk show. Keep up the great work!
Peter Karbe is the Jim Lager of lenses :) He has a new video on Leica Singapore. Don't know if you saw it, But if can swallow the language gap, His slow explanations, And the deep technical optical lecture, You'll appreciate the lenses even more, And understand why they cost so much. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-G_Rgs8otVC0.html
I got the M10-R yesterday. The on-off switch is backwards and the ISO-knob is totally idiotic. The rangefinder is nice, it has LV and you can use Visoflex 2.0. Probably I will not keep it for long. I was disappointed.
Sorry for the confusion. To clarify: While the underlying optical formula is the same for both lenses, there were some adjustments made within the element positioning to reduce field curvature and improve sharpness at infinity. More significantly though, the move from 8 aperture blades to 11 results in smoother bokeh and rounder bokeh balls for point light sources in the background. Hope that helps clear up how the optical design is the same, yet different.
@@RedDotForum Got it. Thank you very much. You guys are the best! Given that, I can use the M10R with my 35 Summicron ASPH V1, and the said lens can take advantage of the 40megs, correct?
@RedDotForum Interesting, as every discussion of the V2 ASPH changes (28/2, 28/2.8 & 35/2) were that the 28/2 had readjusted elements but the 35/2 only had a change in aperture blade no. I’d love for you guys to show me where this is documented as there are a lot of forum discussions where it’s stated by people who should know that there are no optical differences. I’d like to be better informed.
Don't rule out getting started with a used digital M like the M240 or M10. You can always move into an M10-R down the road if you feel the need for 40 megapixels.
The price of the M10-P being currently higher than the M10-R is a peculiarity unique to the USA. In the UK, the P is around GBP 6,500 and the R GBP 7,100. I think it relates more to current trade tariffs / duty on foreign manufactured goods, in the USA than a pricing policy dictated by Leica.
Adobe releases updates on a fairly regular basis, with camera support typically coming very shortly after launch. All previous Leica cameras prior to the M10-R have official profiles.
M10R is a very incremental improvement on the M10P, and in some ways (buffer speed) a downgrade... I will wait for a M11P with a technological advance in terms of buffer/speed/performance, Meistro III... M10P is the better camera for me today.
The only thing that will eliminate that shutter shock is IBIS. But I don’t experience any shutter shock with the M10R and I don’t need IBIS. Over a year later using the M10R it has been the most reliable camera I’ve used. IQ is amazing and the B&W jpegs are beautiful. I stopped editing raw files for B&W.
It’s not like the M10 got worse since the M10R was released If you were happy with the M10 yesterday then you’ll be happy with the M10 today I’m going to wait till the M11 comes out before considering updating where they may have features like Ibis, hybrid and viewfinder
Absolutely. The M10 is an awesome camera. Like we said during the livestream, not everyone needs 40MP for their work or output needs. The M10 produces amazing image quality and is a fully-modern M.
@@RedDotForum I agree. I think that with the M10 (And with the small additions in the M10-P, they reach the "It's good enough" level, And it's a camera for many years if not a lifetime. Other than very specific needs (More MP, No screen like the M10-D, higher dynamic range that can be really important to some people) I can't even imagine someone needs much more, With the right lenses (35LUX-FLE).
I've been using the M10R all day and highlight recovery is definitely a step above the M10. Again, it depends on your style of shooting if it is worth the upgrade. I could have swung either way. I went with it because now it matches up with my M10M. I can go back to lens hunting since that is much more fun than buying camera bodies.
Re. using R lenses on M cameras, the only one I carry regularly is a 180/4 Elmar. For the focal length it’s tiny, and also weighs just a little more than a 90mm ‘Cron ASPH. Image quality isn’t at APO/ASPH level but stopped down it’s fine…and carrying it around isn’t a burden. When I want the extra reach it does the job.
Exactly the point we were making. A 180mm doesn't existing in the M lineup. A compact f/4 Elmar-R is a great complement to an M kit. I still use my 180mm APO-Elmarit-R on the M when I need the extra focal length.
David ....Thank you as always .... I want to ask one thing ....what justifies buying m10 monochrome instead of M10R? Is there massive difference between monochrome images coming from m10 monochrome and colored images converted to B&W with M10R? Thanks
is there a way to shoot b&w with the M10 R without recurring to the JPG? I imagine that he answer is no unless you can deactivate the color filter... After a lot of thought I believe I would be happier trading my Q for an M despite the investment, instead of a Q2. But part of the reason would be shooting b&w.
You can preview/playback in B&W without shooting JPG. While shooting DNG-only go to Main Menu -> JPG Settings - > Monochrome and set to ON. This is a bit confusing as you won't be shooting DNG+JPG, just DNG, but the setting still applies. Of course, this only previews in B&W while using live view and when playing back images on the LCD or in the EVF. Once you import the DNG into Lightroom, it will be a full color image. To address this, you could quite easily create an LR develop preset to convert your color M10-R images to B&W, and apply atomically on import to every image. Or... just get an M Monochrom. :)
@@RedDotForum thank you so much! I am thinking about buying an M9 Monochrom with a 50 mm Summicron and keep the Q. I know this is a partial investment but cannot afford the M10 + the Summicron. You tip will help me a lot. I will look at potential development settings for the DNGs in the Q and do as you suggest :-)
Not noticeably so, no. The M10-R still feels quite responsive. The only real difference in speed is buffer depth, with the M10-R filling up the buffer after ten shots versus 22 for the M10-P.
OMG! My question was answered!! I only get a few minutes a day to watch RedDot, so I finally made it to the end where my question came up. Woo hoo! Talk about making my entire week! And it was thorough! (Who is the customer for the M10-R?) #Awesome
Very good work!!! Question: Regardless of the focal length, and considering image quality, sharpness edge to edge. Which of the following will work better and be your first choice for the M10-R , the M 50 Summicron APO (11141) or the M 35 Summilux FLE (11663).
For absolute image quality and disregarding focal length, the 50 APO-Summicron will be the technically better lens. Of course, in the real world, focal length matters so you should choose the lens that works for your photographic needs. Spoiler alert: I have both the 35 Lux FLE and the 50 APO in my M kit because I love them both!
Never worked out why the shutter cocking has to be powered. It could just as well be mechanically driven with a traditional lever and would save battery and avoid the need for the thumbs up accessory.
Way back when, the Leica DMR (Digital Modul-R) mounted onto a film R8 or R9, converting it to a digital camera. The DMR had a built-in motor advance, but if you half-cocked the shutter advance lever on the camera, the motor wouldn't re-engage after the initial shot. You could then manually advance and re-cock the shutter using the advance lever. I actually loved this hidden feature and it made the camera more discreet. Of course, the shutter and advance mechanism on the DMR was much, much louder than on the M10-R. While it would be extremely cool to implement this feature on a digital M camera, I don't know that you'd really gain anything. The shutter is ridiculously quiet, as is the automated advance. Impact to battery life is negligible compared to image processing and live view.
First off just found you guys an I luv your show. I can't get a M body at this time but there are good deals on CL a goood starter kit to go with have used asp fuji.
Welcome aboard! Here's a link to the CL Starter Bundles: lsm.to/CL-Bundles And if you want more info on the CL: - We did a livestream on the CL here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Dqjt6HXGN_c.html - David did a full review on the CL here: rdf.to/DvXNhU - Kirsten took the CL to India: rdf.to/0RUMJc
great talk, one question I would have asked is: what are the recommended lenses to take full advantage of the new sensor beside the 50mm APO. LOL NVM, I wrote my question at 1:30 got the answer right after
Hello David, if I'm to understand you correctly the M10-R can only shoot 10 frame before the buffer is full then how long do you have to wait for it to clear in order to resume shooting? Cheers! 🥃
The buffer clearing time is dependent on card write speed, but only up to UHS-I speeds. With a speedy card, I'd say the buffer should clear in about 25-30 seconds once full to the point of not being able to take any more pictures.
On a Leica there is not much to improve except for the sensor. So I think the 10R is more like an M11 and well above the M10. Maybe even a bigger jump than from the M240 to the M10. Sure Leica does not want the M10 to be seen as outdated already.
The advantage of the M10-R over the SL2 is the M lenses family. Try walking around for an afternoon with the M10-R and Leica's 75mm f/1.2 Noctilux around your neck. Together, the two of them weigh a ton. Lugging the even heavier SL2 and the 75mm f/1.2 Noctilux around would not be fun for long. There will never be a 75mm f/1.2 Noctilux lens with auto-focus. Why not just go with the lighter, smaller M10-R now?
Valid point, although Josh and I both find that the 75 Noctilux balances better and is more comfortable to use on the SL2 due to the slightly larger camera size and much more substantial grip. I think using smaller, more compact M lenses like a 28 Elmarit or 35 Summicron, or even the 28 Summaron, on an M body will be much more compact and pleasant for all-day shooting.
@@RedDotForum thanks for your response. I'm wondering if Leica is trying/thinking to phase out the M series. Leica's promotional videos for the M10-R have been weak.
Was this a talk about M10R or SL2? Sometimes its hard to tell. Also such a negative attitude towards M lenses (the basis of all Leica glass) compared to the SL lenses, Guys you are novices....
Sorry if this was your take-away. As someone who's shot M for over 15 years with every generation of digital M, analog Ms prior to that, tested and written comprehensive reviews of many, have long-term relationships with the product managers in Germany, and own a full M10 kit myself with six lenses, I wouldn't classify myself as a novice nor as someone not personally invested in the system. The M lenses are great. No doubt. But, we have to give credit where it's due. The SL lenses represent the next generation of Leica optics. And the SL2 is an amazing camera. I shoot with M, SL, CL and S. They are all wonderful systems in their own way. There is nothing like a shooting an M. The feel and photographic experience is unique. But we realize that it's not what everyone is looking for. The M10-R maintains all the positives and refinements of the M10-P, while upping the pixel count by 70% and not giving up anything in dynamic range and high ISO performance. It's awesome...for those that need it. But with the resolution jump come technical challenges that test the limits of the M system as an ecosystem. Focus accuracy, legacy lenses, no IBIS, decent but not top EVF. The SL2 offers the high resolution, with features like IBIS, a 5.7MP EVF, and lens adaptability that might just work better for many photographers. Our goal is to provide options, present different viewpoints and ultimately leave the decisions up to the viewer. If we sound like fans of the SL2 and SL glass it's because we are. But we're also huge fans of the M as well. And the S. And the CL. Etc.
This is late. I love your videos. Your love and passion for all things Leica comes through and as a non user it is very relaxing and fun to watch them when I have time. Thank you! Now my Q; I am a non user. I love the soul of the Leica M system, the small sizes and quality of the fast M lenses and the whole process of shooting and focusing. But the light metering when using the rangefinder (the whole point of the camera IMHO) and constant highlight clipping (maybe worse on the monochromes) did my head in. I don’t want to spend my life in post correcting deliberately underexposed images. I want to get some decent out of camera output and the Fuji medium format camera I am with seems to significantly outperform here. Thoughts?
@@nicklarsenjazz First of all, nobody in the world would buy an expensive Leica just for the sound of the shutter and you are totally missing the point of my remark. Mentioning the shutter is okay, but talking about it for 5 minutes ......
This is why I love this channel! It’s part of the soul of owning a Leica. People care about this. (Maybe we with our Leica Ms are like our GFs with their purses 😂).
Love the allure of Leica but $9000 is crazy money. Thank god for Fujifilm that bridges the gap. I am legitimately interested how other people have that kinda money reserved for just a body and what changes I need to make to elevate myself financially to buy my first one.
I do find that battery life is massively reduced,with the slimmer body. However, using 3 batteries, pretty mutch gives you roughly 6 hours of constant shooting time.
Leica'smarketing dept. presumably funded this crass effort . babble of 2 camera.bugs. plese spend funding o sponsoring upcoming photographers, like you dd n 50&60's and show their ork in LFI. photographers d(who Ihope form most of buyers of Leica)on't want to be allied to airheads lke these vloggers.
