Thanks for the video. I have a Rega RP6 and I have also done some similar comparisons with the standard black belt, the Rega white belt and the blue Edwards Audio belt, and my results were somewhat similar. I use the Turntabulator app on my iPhone, but I prefer using it in "Exact" mode. Takes longer, but the results are more precise. You also see two digits after the period, which I consider necessary to judge the speed. The target speed is 33.33 rpm, and want my turntable to be in the range between 33.31 and 33.35 (preferably between 33.32 and 33.34), as close as possible to the "correct" speed. With the original Rega subplatter (made out of plastic), my table ran a bit fast, just like a lot of people are reporting. I was able to get the correct speed with the blue belt from Edwards Audio (Little Belter). For correct results, you need to make the measurements with the needle in the groove. There is approx. a 0.05 rpm speed difference between the needle in the groove and not playing a record. I have upgraded the subplatter with the special subplatter from Groovetracer for the RP6, and with this (more precise) subplatter, my table ran too slow with the blue belt and I get the correct speed with the standard black belt. The speed differences between the belts are - I am pretty sure about this - the result of the different diameter/thickness of the belts. The blue belt is the thinnest, and the Rega white belt is the thickest. The ratio between the small diameter on the pulley and the large diameter of the subplatter is influenced by the belt thickness. The effective ratio has to be calculated to the "middle" of the belt, like this: (diameter of pulley + half diameter of belt) : (diameter of subplatter + half diameter of belt) The thinner the belt, the slower the table runs. I see some other folks have already made similar comments. Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much for your response and I am glad that others have run similar experiments and can back some of my findings. I ran another test after this with a record playing and didn't see the resultant drag force impact the speed. Drag is definitely a factor but it wasn't something I could measure with my phone. Your absolutely right about the diameter of the belt cross section playing into the speed as well. I hadn't thought to take a caliper and measure the different thicknesses. That might make for another good topic for a follow on.
@@BarakaPDub Well let's see..Delrin platter, Groovetracer Reference subplatter, white Rega belt, Rega PSU upgrade, Q-up, Audiomods Series Six arm currently being made for it. Cart is a Dynavector 20x2HO
It's more about the speed variation (Wow and flutter) and not the average speed... If one belt gives 33.7 but only deviates by .3 and the other belt gives 33.3 but deviates by 1.2 than the 33.7 belt is more stable. And it may not be the belt at all. It could be the motor, the pulley or a warped platter. It's all about the Wow and flutter which can be very audible and annoying. Piano and violins especially. Newer apps show graphs in the time domain showing the speed variation which is more important (to a point) than the average speed reading... I mean you can get an average speed of 33.3 by reading 30.3 half of the time and reading 36.3 the other half of the time. But the variation would sound horrible.
Good comment and I agree. At some point I want to update this video with some of the newer apps that are out there. At one point, I envisioned to a whole video on the Feickert app. Lately, my time has been pretty short though.
+Randy Levine I agree. I think using that Dr. Feicker Platterspeed app would be the best option, as it shows a line of speed changes over time (wow, flutter and drift) as well the actual average/absolute speed. I just bought a Little Belter belt, and it made my Rega RP3 run slower than before, but I use the original Rega subplatter with several layers of packing tape around it to slow it down, as it was running fast from the factory, so now I will have to peel off some of that packing tape. So, here's my take: The belt from Michael Lim seemed to have the most stable speed in this video, but it's very difficult to asses these things by just looking at these app's numbers, because maybe one belt runs slightly faster than another, and therefore it would go more frequently from 33.3 to 33.4 than one that runs slightly slower and therefore less often gets to 33.4, even though the wow and flutter deviations might be essentially identical. If there had been several decimal points it would have been easier to compare. All these belts are made from some kind of elastic materials, but since they might not be exactly the same materials they will also have slightly different elasticity, which will cause differences in absolute speed. The Little Belter seems a bit less elastic than my standard black Rega belt. Also, these belts will most likely have slightly different diameters, both for the entire belt in total (17 cm or so) as well as the thickness of the belt itself (a few milimeters), and that should cause speed differences as well. If that is so, then different subplatters in slightly different diameters (such as an original Rega and Groovetracer's) will also give different results with belts of different thickness and different total diameters. Lastly, if the black Rega belt in this video was old and less tight, and the three other belts were new, the old Rega belt might also fluctuate more in speed or even play at a different speed.
I just bought a white belt for my P3, will be changing it over shortly. Will be an interesting comparison when I do. My wife struggles to understand why a white rubber band cost 50 bucks!!
Ok, I learnt that a sub-platter & belt upgrade would produce enough noticeable improvement 2 keep me happy + my Rega P2. That Groovetracer & Little Belter seem the go. Thx heaps!
No problem. The Groovetracer sub-platter changed the sound the most and when you change it out, you'll see how cheap Rega has been going. Really, it speaks volumes if Music Direct is carrying the product now. I just wish Rega would stand up and take notice.
leyland9999 everything comes at a price. If you want a cheap turntable, that’s great, It can be improved, but at a cost. The stock item is good at its price point. Platter, bearing, belt, motor etc can be upgraded. At a cost. But for many people getting in at entry level and upgrading as funds become available to is the affordable way to go. At least they have that option,. Of course if you want to do it all at once you could splash the cash and by a high end turntable and have done with it.
Wow! i watched the full video:-D very meticulous you are Brother Paul!! Sorry couldn't finish it the other day. Thank you for piecing all the belts together for a very fair comparison and helping us make the right choice even more confidently! :-D Hahaha... I wanted to do this video but since you have done it, you saved me the task!.. I'm going on to your next video now...
+HiViNyws channel Much like your phono pre-amp videos, I wanted to put something out there that would be helpful to others. You can claim to be a bit of inspiration for this one.
Your Rega upgrades/mods videos are excellent. Have you done any mods recently to your turntable? Would love to see a video of it if available. Thank you!
I haven't done anything in awhile but I do have an AudioMods tonearm on order to replace the stock RB303. I am contemplating putting in Lim's bracing to stiffen up the plinth. Thanks for watching toogqwes.
my Technics SL 1200 MKII maintains a steady 33.2-33.3 we can argue over the "vibrations" direct drive can produce but you cant fault the consistency in speed and should it be off, well you can adjust it ;)
I am not surprised at all. I would love to grab a SL 1200 of my own and to a test like this. I would suspect it to be more dead on accurate over a belt driven turntable. At least, like this one.
Great video Paul. I love these equipment videos. I downloaded the turntabulater app to test the speed on my new turntable. I'm happy to say it runs steady at 33,3 rpm :) Thank you for sharing this belt comparison video :)
+My Analog Corner - Carsten Olsen Personally, I think the way Marantz (or Clear Audio) did it's belt design is far better so I am not surprised it's dead on. If I remember correctly, the belt runs along the out rim of the main platter. Is that correct?
I found on my Rega RP6 the white belt made no difference to slowing the speed down. What did was a Tango Spinner Brass triple pulley with three opal silicone belts, a Groovetracer Reference Subplatter and a Michael Lim Motor Isolation Kit. Now I have "Rock Solid" 33.3 RPM with no drift at all.
Triple Pulley...sweet. I wish I could make that mod on my table but I don't think Mr. Lim or Tango make a triple pulley for a P3-24. It would make sense that your accuracy should be more spot on now with the additional surface area coming in contact with the sub-platter.
The tension and diameter of the belt can really play into the speed. For most, it won't matter too much but I thought it would be an interesting experiment.
I hope your experience will be good with the white. I am sure there is a lot of statistical variation in the manufacturing so hopefully, you'll end up being close to 33.3.
I will say in my opinion one of the benefits of their turntables and particularly one of the things that make them so enjoyable and fun to listen to, which is the whole impetus for their products receiving such high praise, is the fact that they run a little fast. I no longer own a rega turntable however when I did, like you're doing here I proceeded to try to correct the speed by trying numerous different belts, I even went so far as to get a new sub platter thinking that might help. At the end of the day though after trying a whole lot of different things and with a third party belt whose name I can't remember the speed went from an average of 33.7 to 33 .3, so it fixed the speed issue. Pretty quickly though I realized over a period of a few days after having installed it that it actually made the turntable sound kind of boring. And I kept thinking about it and I kept thinking about it and the more and more I had that belt on there and I had it running at the correct speed the more dissatisfied I was with the sound. So of course I went back to using the included black belt which made it run at that slightly faster speed, and all was well. Another thing people often underestimate is the amount of stylus drag on a record. I know there's arguments that saying it's so insignificant so that it cannot make a difference. However if you have a grooved strobe disc like I have you can see that it takes and as soon as you lower the stylus down onto that groove your speed drops by 0.2 to.3 RPM and in fact does lower the speed to equate to the standard 33.
@@BarakaPDub well at the moment I'm actually between turntables, I'd actually graduated to a mofi studio , which I just sold, however my wife and I are in the process of a move and once that's complete I plan to pick up a Michell gyrodec.
I have all four belts shown here and also had a third party white belt, the third party white belt was terrible and I just binned it. I was totally unscientific when comparing the others, I just decided that the belt I kept on after cycling through them a couple of times was the best, and that is the Rega white belt.
Any belt showing faster rpms is slipping less. I think the belt that showd best rpm is actually the one slipping the most. Slipping cant cause higher rpm. I mean if a belt slipped 100% you'd get zero rpm. So a zero slipping belt would give you the faster platter rpm.
True but the problem with Rega's is that they are widely known to run slightly faster than 33.3 rpm. Ahh...and one thing I forgot in my last response is belt tension.
Fascinating. I wish we would have tested my table when you were over. I was ready to get rid of it, but will now try a different belt…then probably get rid of it... A marketted tt playing at the incorrect speed is not acceptable. I hear it and that's not good. Thanks for the video. Ron
+Don Bertram All belt driven turntables do have deviations from 33.3 rpm in speed but the Rega is an outlier from many of the companies out there given all of the reports on the net. That said even the high end VPIs, like the Classic 3, have a dedicated speed controller you can purchase separately for $1000. It's one of the inherent design problems for a belt driven turntable. If you go to a direct drive, your speed should be constant but your dealing with a different set of vibrational problems which is why most of the audiophile turntables are belt driven. It's really disappointing to hear that the RP10 runs too fast. You would think Rega would have it much closer to 33.3 RPM if your paying $5000. To be fair though maybe the one Fremer reviewed was a fluke. Thanks for watching Don and I hope you'll enjoy the next two I plan to up today/tomorrow.
Haven't checked the speed on my planar 2 since upgrading to the Rega reference belt but I was surprised by how much it improved the sound quality all around.
What would be the science behind a belt improving the sound? I completely understand how it could affect speed variations, even motor vibrations, but the overall sound? It's definitely not changing the frequency response of the cartridge, especially not when you have a subplatter with dampening to the main platter, soooo.... please explain
@@JoeOrber that can’t quantify any difference. They will say things like “tighten” “warmth” “veil” A stretched out belt may make a difference so replace it when it gets worn out. Otherwise, use an app or strobe and adjust the motor until it is consistent
Surprising results. I got the android app. My P3 runs fast at 34,0 rpm. Using a belt similar to the Michael Lin. Have to see if I can find out why. Thanks for sharing the results.
+X junkie NL How long have you had the Michael Lim belt on your table? It could be that the belt has stretched out over time. I noticed over time with my two belt system, I had a little bit of drift for the better. More towards a constant speed of 33.3.
+BarakaPDub I think my belts are almost 10 years old. Did a little test yesterday. When I switch (Heed Orbit psu) to 45rpm, it is exactly 45,0 rpm. Do you think an older belt can make it spjn faster?
+X junkie NL It's hard to say really. The belts will deform a bit over time. If you got something that is dead on 45 rpm, then I would keep it. Does the same belt play fast at 33 rpm? As a caveat, to this test, I am going to try and run the same test using a strobe disc. Ian at HiViNyws channel showed demonstrated that we can't always trust the apps on our phones. His Android based phone recorded the speed as running fast whereas the Strobe Disc was right on.
Great vid Paul, glad I found your vids I'm loving my p6 back on records again after 30 years . Bit of a suggestion.... The test the check pitch and fluctuation is listen to piano notes. That's the test. Get some piano jazz on. A great album to get to test this is a jazz one by Abdullah Ibrahim called "the balence" Peace
Thanks Mike! Very good comment on using the piano notes as a test. I bought a couple of test records since I did this initial video. I think one of them does use very long notes using the sustain pedal which would be a good test.
First time I seen your channel and it drew me in due to being a rega planar 3 owner. Belts, Well I have tested the belt speed & any variations in the speed & found it was spot on. You can get apps for your phone for this & of trying three different apps 2 we're 33.3 & 1 was 33 .27 based on trying them 3 times each they kept the same reading apart from the 33.27 reading varied betwee 33.26 & 33. 28 so I put that down to software accuracy. What I feel is that if your a hifi geek you will buy or try anything from amazon Chinese stuff, to other branded hifi extra accessories only because its there yet you have never noticed any speed change until it was put in your head by someone. So The manufacturer of your turntable I.e. Rega in my case I have read much on Roy Gandy & his obsession for perfection with his company & his qualifications in engineering starting at the bottom to become one of the worlds leading hifi manufacturers, not driven by money but for perfection. Now why would he do all this then put in any piece of belt in something that took him years to perfect. If your gonna buy a belt get it from the guy that built the Damn machine, simple.
I have to disagree. While I know Roy is a good engineer, he is also a businessman. When the later comes into the mix, you have to make trades on profit over quality. When you start putting plastic ball bearing on an RP1, it makes me question how much the scales have tipped towards profit. Believe me, once you have taken one of these tables a part, you start to see where he sacrificed quality for profit. Don't get me wrong, his tables are not bad but they are not as good as one would think the way they are marketed.
First off, those belts need a break in period to stabilize. Secondly, the new belt, pulley and sub-plater surfaces need to be cleaned with alcohol before the belt is put on and thirdly, the slight variations in diameter of the belts and even ambient temperature changes will effect the speed but then I'm glad that you didn't compare the sound of different belts.. :)
Did I hear you say that someone thought that a better belt caused tighter base response? That is just an example of pure lack of logic from folks who claim they hear something that they really don't. I would love that person to explain the physics behind how a belt on a turntable can offer tighter low end. Great video btw. All these belts fall WELL within acceptable tolerances, and I will never pay $50 for a belt. That would have me awake at night.
The more I have experimented, the more I have found there is some placebo effect. There are some things that make subtle improvements. In the case of 'tighter base' response, it's really not a good term to use but that's not to say there isn't a minor effect on base reproduction or reproduction across the audio spectrum based on the control of wow and flutter or frequency wobble. With belts, as time passes (via stretching) and given variations in individual belt manufacturing based on tolerances, you're going to get a variance in micro slippage. Each belt type will likely have a different chemistry and resulting coefficient of friction. You really want that added distortion caused by the belts as low as you can possibly get it and it is possible to measure the variations using the Feickert Application. That said, how much of that can actually be discerned by the listeners ear is another story altogether. Is it worth staying up at night, likely not for 99.999% of most listeners. For those that do worry, there is always direct drive turntables but even direct drives add a different engineering problems into the equation for consideration.
Logic? Easy! The white belt is manufactured with much higher tolerances that result in a $59 chloroprene band that is structurally even throughout its orbit with fewer material anomalies. This means the platter spins true, with less slippage, bumps and artifacts to deter the flow of music. Great manufacturing companies use quality materials researched and developed for the sole purpose of precise analog replay. In the end to judge a piece of music it all boils down to pitch and timing, and any deviation from this will cause the sound to loose focus, become muddy and low end registers to sound overblown and lethargic. Most people under 50 that have not had their ears screwed up by loud volume death metal in concert halls can easily notice this. Others that noticed an improvement probably needed a new belt to begin with - Ha!
Black belt is 33.6 on my RP6 and the white is 33.8. The white has always been faster for me (I've changed 2-3 times). The Edward blue belt slows it down to 33.4 but the quality of it is crap (2 of mine have snapped within 1 year). I've ordered a red belt now to see how it behaves.
Wow! Thanks for relating your experience. I'll be sure to hawk the quality of mine. I didn't have any problems with the red at all but please let me know what you think after you have used it for sometime.
After watching this demonstration a second time I came to a different conclusion than you. The white belt was slipping less than the other belts, and obviously has less stretch and more grip. When the turntable is in use for a long period of time, the white belt will normalize at or above 33.3 whereas the others will slowly drop below 33.3. It doesn't change my opinion of any of the belts, but at least it's food for thought.
Thanks for chiming in Paul. There's always a bit of deviation in the manufacturing but the couple of white belts I've tried always ended up with a result running a bit fast. It's not to say they are all bad though. It would be nice to see what Rega has tested ;) I'm sure they have a lot of data on it.
It is but it's pretty miniscule when you really look at it in detail. I won't deny it's there but if it wasn't miniscule, the music would be distorted.
Good test, although I'd like to clear up some confusion. The white belt is obviously better in this test, since it transfers power from the motor better. It is the motor that is at fault. I can't say for sure that a new white belt will be better than a new black belt, but it's obvious that *performance* is all down to matching your machine with the right belt, i.e getting the correct speed. I laugh in the face of anyone who claims the belt will affect sound, if it spins at 33⅓ rpm then it doesn't matter if the belt is made from manatee whiskers or Rega's gold plated rubber belt. Also, everyone knows white belta are for newbs, black belts for pros.
Correct on the sound. If your belt hasn't stretched and keeps the speed at a near constant 33.3 rpm, then the sound should not be affected. Large deviations from 33.3 rpm will affect the overall wow and flutter.
Went to purchase the Little Belter for my Planar 3 on eBay and was told "Item does not ship to New York." Well that sucks. My table runs @ 33.5 with the standard Rega belt.
Juar my 2 cents but a lot of these turntable tests should be done with the same record on the platter. I would think this could have some effect on the turntable itself, the platter and the belts for testing.
While your point is a fair one, I've done the test with a record on the platter and it really didn't make a lot of difference. The weight of the record is pretty negligible next to the platter. At some point I would like to redo this video with a demonstration with a record on the platter and take a series of measurements to get a good statistical sample.
Ieri ho cambiato testina, volevo prenderre una MC, ma poi ho ripreso la Exact, con il Planar 3 (2017) il diamantino a taglio Vital, legge ottimamente vinili datati, ma ben lavati al limite con il Kymyas della "Gold Note": - un pro- dotto eccezionale. Intanto ho cambiato la cinghia con una Reference Belt (quelle da 50€). Quella presa l'anno scorso al silicone pur con l'alimentato- re dedicato, quando partiva faceva rumore fino a raggiungere la velocità selezionata. La sorpresa più bella me l ha dato il peso di lettura: -l'anno scorso lo avevo impostato su 1,75 gr., dopo circa un anno e mezzo non differiva di un centesimo 1,75. Fabioo '961 from Italy
Grazie Fabio. Vorrei provare una nuova cintura di riferimento poiché la Rega ne ha creata una nuova da quando ho fatto questo video. Grazie per aver commentato con la tua esperienza.
I'll put my two cents for what its worth. Speed testing should be done when playing a record in order to account for the stylus drag. The best belt I've encountered was from turntablebasic if they are still around and it was about 7 bucks. All belts go bad after awhile especially if you let it sit in that pulley-sub platter egg position. I used to pull it out to keep it round and only put it in when playing records. Especially if you drop 60 for the white belt and if you have two? ouch! In the end. The ultimate upgrade is a Speed box and for my Rega P25, the Music hall speed box was compatible. I even saw it for sale for $199 once. The speed box makes all belts null and keeps a constant 33.3 rpm. Amazing tt with the speed box and the groovetracer upgrades. Cheers and keep it jazzy!
+KoolKatJazz Great comment and I do agree that the stylus will create some drag but my experience has been negligible. That said, I am considering picking up another Edwards Belt to see how it fairs with the Double Pulley. If I end up doing another test, I'll do it with the record on the turntable. I also agree with your comment about the belt sitting too long. Getting a Speed Box, or a FALCON speed controller and tachometer is the next thing I am considering down the road. Thanks for watching and providing the critique. It's appreciated and valid.
In my RP6, supplanted the Little Belter. More stable in RPM's. It is best in bass reproduction, sound stage, instrumental separation, in short ... everything! Gustavo is a nice person, and I am very pleased with both the belt, as with his Subplatter.
This is done seven years ago. The new EBT bill is fabulous and right on and I don’t know what model this guy has. He had the ceramic platter that’s only on the 10 in the town is dual belt not single, so I don’t know what he’s using the test it and what model this is but if that’s within its should have two bills.
I measured a pair of EBLT Reference belts on a P9 with Analog Majik. The reference belts cause a larger speed error than the original belts. EBLT run at 33.05 RPM vs 33.45 for the original. Wow is reduced with EBLTs, 0.06x vs 0.08x. My hunch is they’re a hair smaller and slip slightly less, but may have a slightly smaller cross section, resulting in a slower speed.
Wouldn't the test result be different if you place a vinyl on the platter? The weight of the vinyl could change the friction on the belt, and thus could change the rpm. Not to mention the changes that might occur vinyls of different weight (e.g. 40gr VS. 100gr VS. 180gr).
Good question which I have received before. The effects of putting a record on are negligible. See here for another test video with a record on the platter: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZM9gYX30xFA.html
Can a human ear hear the difference in speed between 33 1/3, 33 1/4, 33 1/5, 33 1/6?Can you really notice that a song has ended 1 or half a second faster or later while listening?
It depends... IMO, if you a fraction off, most people couldn't pick up the difference. It's not really a deal breaker but this video is for people that want to tweak things a bit. Additionally, this is why Rega hasn't really done anything about it...until this year. Their new PSU allows you to dial in exact speeds. The further you get from 33.3 though then you're pitch is going to be off.
If the belt was slipping the rpm would be below 33.3. How can a belt spin it faster? Does that mean the "more accurate" speed belt is actually slipping to get the speed to a lower 33.3 vs the other belt showing a speed of 33.6? Also when is a speed deviation audible? Does .3 or .4 rpm really matter? The only other way a belt can increase speed is if has a diameter that is too large for the drive pulley and rides up high in the pulley effectively changing the ratio.
Great question Robert and I guess my video kind of makes it a bit confusing. From my viewpoint, the motor runs faster than it needs to and you need to increase the friction or loading the motor sees. By adding another belt, you increase the amount of resistive contact it must overcome. Is the speed deviation audible? To my ears, it's really, really hard to discern. Occasionally, with long sustained piano notes, you might notice a slight waiver. Some people are a lot more sensitive to it than others. Your last point is absolutely correct as well, you can change the pulley ratios to increase or decrease the speed. Some people have applied tape on the subplatter to increase the diameter.
There might be a few mods out there for Music Hall turntables. I found many of my Rega ones on www.vinylengine.com. If you do a search on Music Hall, you're bound to find something.
Since you're testing belts, I believe you should check each belt's installed tension. A loosely fitted belt would obviously has more slippage which is more demonstrated on the early V belt "squeals" in the automotive industry. How about testing for rumble on turntables? Rumble was a very important spec. and selling points on turntables in the sixties and late eighties. Very interesting evaluation, keep up the good work, buddy..
Thanks Ricardo and that's a very good point. I guess you could do a rudimentary pull test and measure the deflection of the belts with a known mass attached to get the tension. I agree with you on the rumble spec. Thanks for the great comment.
I know this video is 7 years old now but I need to know where I can find the Edward's Audio "Little Belter Blue" replacement belt for an original Planar 3" please and thank you so much
Oh oh, there we go again. The white Rega belt is thicker than the Rega black belt that comes as standard with the RP1 turntable. And that causes a difference in speed because the deeper the belt rides on the pulley, the slower the speed will be. The revolutions of the motor are exactly the same, but it all depends on another key factor as well. And that is the compound, just like you mentioned. The stiffness of the rubber and the tightness might increase drag on the motor, causing to slow down the motor and also speeding up wear of the motor bearings. The only right belt, having the right tightness and thickness is the original Rega black belt. Too wide a belt causes more wow and flutter and it will take ages until the thing spins at the right speed, whereas a too tight belt will slow down the speed and over time your bearings will be worn sooner than expected. Indeed, the money spend on the white belt is a waste as it is thicker so increasing the speed. It is as simple as that. Besides, a whopping 50 dollars for a piece of synthetic rubber! Don't be fooled by Rega, they just want your money.
Seeing as the purpose of a turntable is to spin at 33 1/3, surely any deck that doesn't is by definition unfit for purpose. Offering upgrades to make it do what it was designed to do seems pretty odd to me. Needless to say I'm in the DD camp.
MrCatalysis101 I can’t argue with your point at all, but I challenge you to tell the difference between a tt running at 33.33 rpm and one at 33.7 rpm. Unless you have perfect pitch, you won’t be able to tell unless you the same tone on both of them both simultaneously when you’ll get a beat frequency, or possibly if you play them directly one after another. Fluctuations in speed are much more obvious though.
Are you still using the blue belt? Have you had to change it out yet? I bought one about a year ago. I checked it yesterday and it still seems pretty taut.
So interesting, Paul. Of course, with piano that stability is really going to make a difference. I wonder if you did needledrops and blind tested if you could tell immediately or would have to really pay attention. I imagine it depends on the music, but solo piano would immediately reveal the difference.
I decided to watch the video a second time and thought of something. . Could it be that while the other belts are running closer to 33.3 that the white belt is running closer to the speed of the motor. Possibly the other belts are experiencing some slippage, extremely minor though it might be, and it is causing a slower reading. I don't see how there is any way that the platter could be running faster than the motor will turn it.
+silverado884 Interesting thought and thanks so much for sitting through the video twice ;) I have concluded that it all amounts to belt tension and surface contact. Rega's belts seem to be a generic problem. In particular with the belt tension and that can be corrected in manufacturing. Even Stereophile's Michael Fremer noted when he was reviewing the RP10 that it ran fast (33.6 rpm). His solution was to demount the motor and try and pull it back to apply more tension if memory serves me correctly. I'm sorry but if you're dropping over $3000 on a turntable, they better have it pretty darn close to 33.3.
I just wanted to chime-in with a suggestion here. I've adjusted several new TT's for folks that all seemed to run a bit fast at both speeds. Tables like the AT LP60 and its clones, as well as the dreaded Crosleys are always consistently fast. I think what is happening is that the motors are being adjusted at the factory on a virgin belt. The belt will relax after some use which reduces some of the frictional losses. That's my theory anyway, since all of the TT's I've adjusted seem to be fast by about the same amount. I just wonder if the decrease in speed that you found with the new belts was simply due to the fact that they were new. Have you revisited your TT's speed after a year or more of use?
I checked it six months afterwards and was really getting the same result. Honestly, I will have to go back and check it again. I do expect the belts to stretch over time and get more slippage.
Unless the belt is *really* loose, slippage should not be a factor once the platter is spinning. If you think about it, most of the torque required from the motor is at startup. Once the platter is spinning, there are just the parasitic losses of the platter and motor bearings, the belt itself, air resistance, and the needle in the groove (which is minuscule compared to the others). Air resistance is fairly constant, so the variable here are the bearings and belt. The tighter the belt is, the more friction is created on the bearings from the side loading. The stiffer a belt is, the more it resists being wrapped around the pulleys and straightened again. Any belt is reasonable condition won't slip during playback. Anyway, I was just curious. The budget TT's I've adjusted use the typical DC servo speed control circuits, just like a tape deck. They self-regulate fine so long as the average load on the motor at steady-state does not change too much. I'm actually not sure what kind of motors the Regas use, so all of this may be moot. :)
While I like the thought, I have tried different locations and different turntables, the results don't differ too much. It would be nice to get the spec accuracy on the iPhone gyros.
BarakaPDub Thanks Paul, I tested my new Project 6 Perspex SB ( the SB models have a newer model motor) speeds, with the stock belt, using a new Samsung S9 plus with the RPM app. And the results were amazing , exactly 33.3 and exactly 45 RPM with no speed deviation whatsoever , not even 0.1 RPM of deviation. You were right, it did not matter where the phone was placed on the platter, the results were the same. it seems that the gyro specs on the newer phones are much better than on the older models.
I know it'd be hard to test, but I'd be interested to see whether the act of placing a record on the platter just slows things down a wee bit, and then does downforce from a cartridge slow things down even further? If so, the White Belt may prove the most accurate. This is the first of your videos I've seen, and I'd be interested to know what turntable you modded. I use a stock RP8.
+MarkPMus So I have another video which has been shot but I need to edit it where I play a record and measure the speed. I had a number of people comment on the drag force...which does exist but you really would need to have highly precise equipment to measure it. With the app though, you don't see any difference and that's really how it should be. If the drag force was high, you would be doing damage to the record. So folks will be getting a demonstration in an upcoming video along with a strobe disc to app compare. The turntable I have modded is a P3-24. If you're using a stock RP8, there is no reason to mod. It's already a good table ;) That said, I think I caught your videos long ago. You had a different Rega before the RP8, right?
+MarkPMus only turntables with servo motors will compensate for load changes they are designed to detect subtle changes in rpm speed and send that to a microprocessor to adjust speed back to the base setting
***** Yes, I used a P5, with a Goldring 1042 cartridge. I made a video on my own channel where I checked out Turntabulator with the RP8, and also a very very cheap "Musonic" turntable belonging to an elderly relative. So cheap it's almost a Crosley! The results were as expected!
To the author... Are there any chances of the phones ability to measure precise variation in RPM being uncalibrated? I know that Rega tables tend to run slightly on the fast side. But, I am just curious if these cell phone apps are accurate.
I think the precision will vary from phone to phone and company to company but I did run the app on a direct drive system with a strobe light. I also compared the phone app with a strobe on my Rega in another video (can't remember which one) and found it to be pretty accurate.
No its not accurate every small milimeter of movement on the phone and the phone will display a different value. The problem is that the phone is relying on accaleration and decelaration instead of measuring the actual speed. So no its not 100% accurate and will very from phone to phone but its will never be more accurate than a printen out stroboscoop sheet (50/60hz) placed under 50/60hz light
You didn't try it with talcum powder on the original belt and the others, you should try it. Not a fan of the round belts think flat belts are better you get a lot of rolling with a roundabout and noise produced I think is greater. What about trying dental floss supposed to be good give that a go. I don't believe the Rega motor controller has servo control does it?
I could try the talcum powder sometime if I redo this one. Dental Floss has a lower coefficient of friction than silicone so it wouldn't work that well.
@@BarakaPDub hello how are you! Things good! yes they say talcum powder is beneficial you don't need to do it for camera just do it for your personal experiment see if it helps in WoW and Flutter. See where you're coming from with the dental floss, but people do use it you have to have it tight tho, and manually spin it up I think but some people swear by dental floss. Have you managed I suppose you forgotten don't worry when you feel ready trying at 88 degree rake angle what results if you have have you noticed any difference. Catch you later
I think it would be fun to do a sound compare to dispel any rumors but really having better accuracy should tweak the sound a tad. Thank for commenting.
@@BarakaPDub Thanks for the reply, my comments were not meant as a criticism, as someone with a visual disability, a manual turntable such as a Rega has presented a challenge. Since the last post I've bought a Technics SL1500C, so far, so good. I enjoyed your video BTW.
I can't figure out how the apps works since not every phone have their sensors in the same location inside them consequently affecting speed reading. Is is working only with iphone? Do you have to calibrate it with true speed reference?
Supposedly, there are versions of it for Android out there. Maybe not made by the same company. Some of these to allow for calibration and others do not. Comparing this to a strobe, I found it to be pretty spot on.
I was able to test it with an Audio Technica, not a Technics mind you, and the results were a bit better which isn't surprising since you're not dealing with a belt.
Hmm. I wonder how much the platter affects it? I have a White belt and a delrin platter made from Ben Lamb at fidelity designs. Just tried it with rpm calculator and its driving at 33.3 - 33.4. So for me the white belt does what the blue one does in your video.
If you're white belt is sticking right around 33.3, then I wouldn't change anything at all. I am sure there might be a little bit of variation from belt to belt. I honestly haven't gone back to my glass platter since performing this and that would be a fun little experiment. I think once it does get up to speed though, it's just a matter of counteracting any drag so the mass shouldn't play into it too much since the difference between the two platters wasn't that much.
The Rega platter will never spin at the 33 1/3 exactly and consistently due to the “platter wobble” built into the Rega design, something that Funk Firm ( others as well) realized and compensated for in their re-jig of the of the Rega table, ie. the use of pulleys to redistribute the belt force to 3 sides of the sub platter.
BarakaPDub I'm assuming you didn't Google it thefunkfirm.Co.uk get one of the achromat 5 mm as well, they do make whole platters would be best. I think there's more factors involved you didn't give any run in time to the belts, they need at least 2or3 months constant use before they can be stable And they should be cleaned and so should the subplatter and pulley for the motor the might be particles and residue, And you should always put your belts in a bag of talcum powder first, it's not so much on slippage it's the sticky Factor what causes wow and Flutter, talcum powder takes the sticky Factor away plus it ads grip. Other factors are not so much the belt but how the platter and pulleys are true I see all the time even on a lot of expensive turntables is not machined that well, Try putting the phone on top of the pulley of the motor only to see how stable it is? Or you can use an app where it uses movement rotation would be better sticking a piece of paper measures the rotation, can't seem to find it of-hand, there is another good one sound metre pro, what you should use to measure your decibel reading of your bearing and motor do them separately and together? see how much the centre bearing is producing noise and vice a versa, I think you can get a calculation of rotation speed from the decibel Reading. Just having a look and there's RPM metre, maybe you should try! That's quite good. Just looking and this one might be good vibration Ads, give you a spectrum analyser rpm and acoustic noise. You should always start the platter with your hand at the same time you put the switch on to help it, This stops the belt from getting flat spots. I'd like you to return to this with more run in time and them being coated in talcum powder. What is your centre bearing like diameter length and does it have a ball, and what lubricant do you use? You can experiment with different oils and greases with the app to measure your decibel Reading, high end manufacturers turntables use (manual gearbox oil 80) but I think greece is better even if you use oil in conjunctio on the sides, is a must especially on the bottom! White thick! Lithium grease mixed in with 1to1 graphite powder try and get the platter suspended in degrees a millimetre from its original height! is the best approach. You have to be careful here!!! if too much grease gets on the side walls and you have a tight bushing your never getting the platter out easily! You might need to drill a hole worst scenario. Depends on the type of construction of bushing you have is it a one piece of split? What is the bush material metal or ceramic? Let us know what your results are.
BarakaPDub Yes! RPM for iOS and RPM Calculator for Android that operates just like iRPM. Contacted groovertracer. Would have to special order the Standard SubPlatter with a 6-8 week wait. So, ordered a deep groove platter from eBay with oil, bearing and magnet at less than half price of the one you have. I have a planar 3 that I got second hand in 1991. Using an Elys that's grey. Yes, it does have 3 mounting holes. Got it from London via fax. No internet back then. It should have died by now. Knock on wood. I'm scheduled to be in Japan in May. Have priced the NAH GAH OH KA 110 And can get it without tax. If you would like me to order something for you, just ask. I'm hoping to meet Ian if he's in Japan at the same time. Jet
The two apps used are the iRPM app, which I think is now defunct, and the Turntabulator which does give you a speed after so many cycles. Hope that helps.
Find a well cared for Technics SL1200 mk2, get a better platter mat, upgrade the arm if you wish (or just damp it). Drive system stability and noise still measures better than most belt-drives costing less than a new car ;)
+Anthony Camplone Some claim there is tighter imaging and bass which would make sense. Too be quite honest, I only spun a couple of records on each and it was hard to discern a huge difference. What I will show in my next video did have a bigger difference in the imaging and replication of the instruments. If you think about it, the small slips of the belt will smear the sound a bit. That said the differences of 0.1 and 0.2 percent are not going to be really perceptible to most.
To me, any belt that causes lower rpm of platter means the belt slips more than other belts. So, the belts that show perfect rpm are slipping much more than belts that showed highr rpm... sounds to me like the motor runs fast, and once a belt is used that slips a little, the ones that have more slip cause the rotations to slow enough to match desired rpm. Im thinkng if your motor ran slow, you'd want a belt that had zero slip to not make matters worse.. any belt that had slippage would cause the platter to spin even slower. Maybe thats why rega motors spin slightly fast.. so you can tweak the speeds with belts that slip a bit more than others.. so you can slow down the rotation of platter. If rega motors ran slow, no belt would make platter it spin faster.
Unfortunately, Rega's have never been friendly for doing most types of adjustments. Their new models coming out this year now have a motor controller that can be speed adjusted which is nice for getting it close to spot on. T here's always going to be a small amount of variation due to various factors. I don't think I mentioned it in this video but one of the things that I neglected to mention is that the belts will stretch over time and the environment can affect the rubber over time. I really need to rerun a speed test since it's been a couple of years since I did it. Have thought about it more over time there are a number of variables that really can play into things: Bearing Oil, Bearing Wear, Belt Material, Belt, Subplatter Surface, Motor, Motor Pulley, and Motor Voltage/Current. Some of these are easily controllable but others are a bit more difficult. Thanks for the thoughts dsonyay. At the end of the day, some people would call it fretting but I do it more out of interest.
Great video, only wish I had of found it before dropping $$ on 2 REGA white replacement belts for my REGA P9 table as my findings are the same as yours in that the white belts tend to make it run a it fast. Heres a short vid of mine at 33 rpm using a KAB strobe. As you can see the 33 indicators are drifting to the left instead of remaining "locked" indicating its running fast. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Q25hKg8jErw.html Will now have to order some "little belters" to see if that helps,
Thanks so much for sharing! Now if I recall correctly, the P9 has the upgraded speed control, right? I haven't seen the KAB strobe up close but I like it from your video. If you do get the 'Little Belter,' please let me know if works for you.
Yep the P9 come with a giant power supply, dual belt, machined alloy pulley as well as a larger bearing so there shouldnt be any excuses so i'm thinking it must be the new white belts (unfortunately the ones I got with the table were worn out so cannot compare) but will definitely let you know what (if any) difference the blue belts make when i order in a few months. Oh and the KAB strobe is great as its not relying on your power frequency for timing making it somewhat more accurate. Also as the strobe plate is 10" the idea is to put it ontop of a record while measuring to also factor in any potential stylus drag but I suppose that will depend on a lot of factors such as groove modulation etc. so not sure how much more accurate doing this would be.
I’m a professional musician . Needless to say speed is beyond important. If the platter spins fast , it will up the tempo AND the key . I cop things off of vinyl records . Pitch is extremely important. If it ran slow needless to say it would bring key , and tempo down. This can really mess with your head . Meaning your tuning on guitar or bass is relative to what you’re actually hearing . Just by being off very little , you are caught in a “ microtonal “ pitch . Therefore it’s not quite an A ( 440 ) note , but it is not G# or A# , but closest to A 440 , but not exact. As George Martin called it when recording the Beatles “ in between the cracks “ if I recall . Not exactly ,but close .
Thanks Kenneth and great comment. I have a professional pianist friend whose ears are finely tuned to the microtonal differences. He's pretty apt to pick up the variations in the speed chang. I personally have a hard time discerning it but I know there should be something there so I love to tweak things.
that app is unreliable I would suggest downloading and printing a strobe wheel keystrobe.com/Discs_files/complet%2060hz%20100mm.pdf and get the strobelight app, much more accurate
+Richard Golden-DeWitt Thanks for the time on the app but the referenced app turned out to be a bit more reliable than people think and I did a follow on video with a comparison with a strobe disc. See here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZM9gYX30xFA.html
I have a love hate relationship with the company. There are somethings they do extremely well but there are other areas where you can tell they've gone cheap. I guess they are better than others though.
