Personally for me, when it comes to arenas it’s the Queue time. I join a queue and chill on my phone for 20minutes until the buzzer rings. It is really demotivating to turn on the game knowing you’re going to be on your phone more than having game time.
Yeah by the time it pops I've lost the sense of fun and motivation, hence why I played heals for most of the time for quick ques.. but I want to play some DPS when I feel like it
The reason queue times are long is because there are no healers. Small healer population = long solo shuffle queue times. This is why for me personally solo shuffle should either not have rewards/titles or just be removed from the game at this point. This would incentivize players to play 3v3 bracket more. Wow population is getting smaller and healers have always been way harder to find in PvP even when the population wasnt small. So now that it is smaller player population and there are multiple brackets for pvp it makes finding a healer even harder. This is why we need a "main bracket" if you will, that you get all your pvp rating/rewards/titles from. Everything outside of the "main bracket" can be for fun/casual play.
There is no reason for every class to have a way to heal themselves. That was the first and worst iteration of homogenization. Homogenization and the barrier to entry is 100% the problem with retail pvp. I can't imagine being a new player and trying to come close to matching the veterans second nature with their keybinds.
I agree completely. I think that's bad homogenization, where other instances are completely fine and healthy. Having said that, I don't play retail. I tried it and bounced off, mostly because of the barrier to entry. Even as someone who's played a lot of WoW the last 4 years (classic), it felt overwhelming, and a bit unnecessarily complicated. Classes felt overdesigned, compared to classic, which might be too simple for retail player's taste.
The problem for me is that clases that are not healers/ hybrids shouldnt heal more then them. Keep something like when you kill anything you heal so that you dont have to sit and eat. But nowadays warriors,rogues... heals more than is healthy for game
The class "balance" is what kills me most (besides broken mods/macros). I say that in the sense, the game is fairly well balanced. Weird opinion....I hate that. A rogue or mage, with the cc and capabilities they have, shouldn't be top dps. Not every class should do comparable damage considering the other utilities they have. I believe cc is too potent and too frequent at this point and it's ridiculous to just sit and do nothing for that long. Everyone shouldn't get everything. Classes should be what they are. If you have tons of cc, you do less damage. No or little cc, more damage or other types of utility. Too many people bitch qhen they don't do enough damage but forget each class having their own specialties would be much more fun and healthy
Getting mad about class balance will never be worth it, the game has never been balanced, Tier S team will always exists, no matter what expansion or patch.
lack of genuine attention from the devs. lack of genuine changes that are trying to create a better pvp product. all changes just to take advantage of us
As a healer who has played arena for more then 15 years. I don’t wanna come back to the game knowing I gotta worry about downloading and configuring so many addons. To me the game hasn’t been the same since weak auras became a must
Addon necessity is really a big issue, also in PvE. If anyone wants to be competitive they can't play the game as intended. But the addons made for PvE are better at their job. (Bosses telegraph their own mechanics is also something that should also exist in a way in PvP. There's no reason why OP abilities should be obscured.)
before this fucking breaking ui cause were fucking stupid ass blizzard, the only addons anyone that pvp would need is sarena, bigdebuff, omnibar and flyplatebuffs. and they weren't even needed but they made everything easiily available to discern. now its like fucking fucking fuckign fuck ing fuckign reload, fucking, reloadfuckiionn reload
Come home from work. Hop in solo que. Cook dinner, walk the dog, run to the store for beer, shower. Then maybe que pop, only to get booted instantly because someone left or d/c
The biggest problem in shuffle is that nobody wants to heal; it's just not fun right now. Instant 30% dampening makes it feel like you immediately can't breathe, and if you don't press cooldowns immediately, someone will typically die. I understand the need to keep solo shuffle games from dragging on forever, which is why dampening starts right off the bat. However, I personally would prefer if dampening started at 0, and we played 3 games instead of 6, incorporating a bit of RNG on team comps. Losing 6 games in a row feels terrible, but losing 3 in a row doesn't feel as bad, and it still allows for a decent amount of team variety. Yes, sometimes RNG will still play a role, but currently, some healers are just better matchups, so many matches come down to who had the better rock-paper-scissors with the healers. Six games in a row can be especially detrimental to healers if they get a bad matchup. We need to prioritize making healers happier, which will also decrease queue times. I believe queue times would also decrease if we switched to 3 games instead of 6. Another problem is the lack of rewards. There need to be more arena rewards just for participating. Even if someone is going 0-20 in win-loss, they should be rewarded for trying. Many players don't even bother because they know they aren't good, and losing 95% of their games without any rewards demoralizes them quickly, leading them to stop playing altogether. Yes, arena is supposed to be where legends are born, but when the newer players stop playing, it makes arena overly competitive. Former gladiators struggle to break 1800, and that's just not fun. We need newer players to keep the game vibrant. Gaming isn't enjoyable when only veterans are playing, and every match is sweaty. In contrast, I have so much fun in battlegrounds blasting noobs, and they keep coming back for more because they're having fun. Arena has lost that appeal for newer/less experienced players, who stopped playing ranked arena years ago. We need more reasons for regular players to step back into the arena. Maybe even opening up max lvl pvp to the general public and making it free to play, I bet there would be a giant group of players who would be down to try wow if it was free. They would see other players walking around in cool pve mogs and it would make them want to subscribe to try out the pve. PVP just needs an influx of players and I don't know how that's going to happen without some big changes.
"We need newer players to keep the game vibrant. Gaming isn't enjoyable when only veterans are playing, and every match is sweaty." THIS 1000000% I agree with! Completed the transmog in S1, again in S2 on a different toon; but now struggling a lot to complete it again here in S3. We'll see if my OCD compels me to do it or if it gets any better when they announce the end of the season and hopefully more ppl start queueing. To add onto your point about Battlegrounds, I'd even go so far as to say I have a lot more fun watching a map and seeing where my team needs me to be rather than watching my Omnibar and Weakauras tracking when a dozen enemy team abilities are coming off cooldown. Don't get me wrong there's an absolute level of skill to all that and that's fine, and the elite players are elite at it. But that also just makes an additional barrier of entry to the new/casual.
dampening is not the problem, the issue is the garbage separate healer mmr. half the games you go 3-3 and tie because 1 dps feeds and you get punished for it. It's the worst mmr system in any game ever. You get punished for playing a healer with the MMR system. When you do Blitz you realize how OP healers are, they are basically immortal without dampening.
The biggest thing that keeps me from Queueing anymore (i only play shuffle). Is going 4-0 against in a lobby, then someone rage quits and I get next to nothing to show for it except another 45min queue. It's even worse when you go 1-3 or 2-2 and the same thing happens, you lost your chance to fight back and lose mmr/rating to a quitter.
@@ctrl_alt_del100 Agree, except I think it should be even harsher. If you rage quit in Shuffle, you can no longer get any rating at all ever for that entire season. Your chances of climbing are just outright deleted. We need a scorched earth approach to this nonsense.
@@StrobeFireStudios Wouldn't work, what about leaving for real emergencies? it wouldn't be able to identify real leaving problems. Although i wish we could scorch earth it lol
100% agree with homogonisation. Classes and specs used to feel unique to a point where people were looking for your class in chat to accomplish a certain goal. Now everyone just kinda does everything and my class doesn't feel special anymore.
In season 1 Dragonflight I reached 2.7k solo shuffle as a frost mage and I had the most fun since bc. In season 2 and 3 I was stuck at 1.9-2k,. Not only that I feel worse but I have to wait 20 minutes for a game. I'm just about to finish my PhD studies in psychology and my solo shuffle queues take more time than my research does. Lol. Blizzard need to fix queue times and rewards.
thats called inflation and deflation my friend. The rating sky rocketed in season 1 because the player population for solo shuffle was very high. which made MMR inflate. allowing players to gain rating easier. Then people start quitting the game and population drops and so does the MMR, this is deflation. Making it much much harder for players to climb.
thats whats wrong with solo shuffle people are getting rating and xp they dont deserve ive seen people having 2.4 xp meanwhile they also have 3k games played in 1800 rating
Some melee classes are too fast and have too much mobility, namely DH/WW/Rogue, while doing insane damage. They are so fast, the game engine sometimes cannot keep up so these classes start lagging around etc. I also agree with the global thing: offensive/defensive CDs should not be on global, while all movement/mobility abilties should be. Roll has GC, Charge has a GC - Shadowstep should have a GC as well etc.
@LongDong-wy3sj okay haha skill issue right. Well, low pvp participation numbers don't lie. And the majority of players play melee. I guess everyone quitting is a skill issue. Delusional.
As a healer the most tilting thing is having a 3:3 lobby because one dps is hard countered or just plays bad or for whatever reason and you lose rating at the same mmr as a dps would get 0 for 3:3, so it feels like you get punished for even playing a healer So because of that i normally take a break after every game to stop me from tilting wich pushes up the queue time for all the dps
MMR is the real reason. If you stripped it away and put the rewards in a list, wins +3%, lose +1%; and throw in tokens or something to roll on mystery items or gear - mystery items being random rewards from old seasons everything from Arena mounts/tmogs/pets/toys etc.
Exactly it’s not the gameplay that’s gatekeeping people it’s the remaining community of sweaty players ready to stomp on any new player to suck out any little drop of dopamine they can… participation rewards is what will make pvp enjoyable for the majority of players
The main issue with arenas in World of Warcraft is the extended queue times. A potential solution is to eliminate shuffling as a separate bracket. In most other competitive games, players can queue either solo or with others in the same bracket or game mode. Adopting a similar approach would significantly reduce queue times, as seen in games like CS, Dota 2, and League of Legends. While it's true that you will encounter premade groups and face challenges, you'll also have the opportunity to meet and team up with like-minded players. The current Looking for Group (LFG) system tends to be toxic, and the lengthy wait times associated with shuffling exacerbate the problem.
I pretty much play every class in a solo shuffle in a dps capacity. My skill level sits around 1800-2100. What I notice most is classes with upfront dps/pressure gain rating so much easier. Also classes that are forever tanky and never get targeted because of said tankyness. Get free wins. I honestly find the 1400-1700 bracket harder than 1800++ - which is super tilting. Some classes feel like you can’t generate your own win condition.
100% - at 1400 i face almost only meele. Last -30 was in a Tank lobby instead of healer....like wth??? The Match befor, against 2x DH 1xHunter.....really fun as a Mage.
I completely agree. Games can be really long and close, yet the losing team won't get anything, which makes it unfun. With the current system, it's better to just /afk and log to a different char when you lose the first teamfight or your team won't get the majority of bases.
A pretty common theme was the oppressiveness of melee specs, and I agree. They have too much mobility, micro cc, damage, and disruption making them unfun to play against as a ranged spec. It's impossible to kite them really so you end just trying to out damage them while getting trained and interrupted constantly. Number 1 thing that prevents me from enjoying PVP and it showed up in a lot of the twitter posts.
This why I like classic pvp old days ah use be good like kill rouge twink and warrior before finally kill me as hunter but retail hunter squishy so.much so feel like when playing mage takes beating in robes then hunter wearing mail which bull sh my eyes. Also miss hunter pets having unique abilities. Sh I played pally I use love pvp vs caster did suck y'all kited f out us yes it was. But all sweater when mange get you beat living out y'all. Don't see retail anymore like every melee and mom can close any gaps you create bull sh coming. melee person cause pally in retail i can agree sh caster go though bull sh makes less rewarding not as much thought my eyes
Rogue treated as any other class having 7x CC and 5x save CDs... This is mind boggling. In any decently balanced game current rogue iteration would do negative damage and still be S tier...
Hyperbole much? The game in its current state doesn't require that many binds, lmao... so many abilities have been trimmed/pruned with every passing expansion post wotlk. In essence: skill issue.
As someone who mainly plays PvE, used to play casual PvP, and has a passing interest in PvPing again the main reason I'm not PvPing is the complexity of everything. I don't know every class and what they're capable of, and I don't really have much interest in sitting down and learning them either so I know that limits my ceiling. I have no idea what targets should be focused, when I should switch targets. And in a game all this information comes at you so fast it's difficult to process. I think to sum it up, I'm a total PvP noob, and in an environment that's strictly competitive like arena or RBGs being a noob feels insanely bad. There is no "learning mode" when it comes to PvP where I can spar against bots that do different abilities and techniques in order to learn and familiarize myself with . I have to throw my head against other players in a team with other players and feel like total dead weight, which again doesn't feel good.
as a pver myself who pvp last season to get that weapon enchant it took me foreeeeever for the games to even slow down to where i understood and could trade cd's etc. half of it is playing the a ton then knowing what everyone does. im now trying to hit 2100 on a healer as of last week and yikes. im bad all over again.
strictly playing healer at this point cause the q's are just so bad i played a warrior season 2 and it was hard cause the qs were long and i had to 4-2 or 5-1 to even get rating. 3-3 would be like 0-1 rating lol.
I play this game for almost 20 years. Mostly pvp. And even I didnt bother to spend few days to study evokers... They are a black box for me, I still have no idea. I just know that they are immune to all my CC since im not a rogue. And thats basically it. I do not understand why we are being forced to learn an encyclopedia to just be able to play this game on a decent level... They must just prune 80% of everything and make the rest meaningfull and easy to understand.
I can't stand playing this game and requiring to pay attention to 1) my teams micro cooldowns (aka defensives), 2) enemy micro cds, 3) literally every spell in the game, 3)diminishing returns and how they effect 30+ different classes, 4)the camera angles OMG nobody talks about this enough... they're TERRIBLE as casters in maps like BRH. I mean the list goes on and on, and I've been playing arena exclusively (3xr1 and 20+ glad mounts) since TBC. Today I'm finally calling it GG.
Imagine buying the new Mortal Kombat, Tekken or Street Fighter and the first time you play online you get wrecked, then you go look for advice online only to get told you need to write custom macros that link 3 moves together at once and also add a bunch of third party UI widgets that you had to go find on your own to even compete at a baseline level. Then during your next game you see that pure DPS classes can self heal for like 600% of their health while interrupting you,stunning you and mezzing you. You'd never play those games ever again, yet for some reason this is what WoW is now
I've never had action taken against my account until solo shuffle became a thing. I main healer, and people commonly blame healers for problems during game play. I've been 2800+ in 3s as multiple healer specs, and when I play alts in low rated solo shuffles, people will message me aggressive things, and then report me when and if I reply without saying anything bad. This is so common from a healer perspective that I just received a ban for what I believe is undeserving.
No hotfixes for over a month now. Blizzard sees that Rogue RShaman is a requirement to even make the AWC quarterfinals and says “Working as intended” Legit the class balancing is the worst it’s been all expansion except initial retpocolypse. 5-6 classes are significantly better than the rest of the game. Rogue (Outlaw + Sub), Shaman (Resto + Ele), Warlock (Destro + Demo), Druid (Resto + Balance), SPriest, and DH are significantly outperforming the rest of the game
There really is no excuse for it, it’s glaringly obvious, patch after patch, xpac after xpac. Bottom line is, they actually want it to be this way. Maybe it has something to do with player engagement? People reroll for flavor of the month and climb on it then rinse and repeat 🤷 it’s obvious that they want to swap around who is top dog and it’s typically the usual suspects.
Here's my list, from the perspective of a solo player who only vacations in Retail ever since Classic came out: - SoloQ Times Are Bad (There have historically been comps where there are no healers. They should drop the role queue and have a any spec queue. If people want a guaranteed healer then they can play normal Arena. Otherwise, you take your chances. Hell who knows, dropping the role queue might actually create new meta comps because people thought on paper it sounded dumb but worked really well.) - Casual BG's Are Too Sweaty (I'm talking more or less about Smurfs. Not pre-mades, but Smurfs. 1-60 Battlegrounds is a REALLY fun way to level alts, but it's ruined by the ability for people at max level to queue up with their low level friends. Yes the max level is technically scaled down, but they're still a borderline raid boss because their scaled down stats are still leagues better than anything someone at that level could get naturally. Blizzard hates twinks but they didn't realize the best twinks in the game are at max level.) - Immortal Healers Ruin The Fun (This doesn't extend anymore to just healers now, but in Cataclysm it started with healers becoming neigh-invincible, and the problem has only gotten worse since. Pre-Cata the strat in BG's was to focus the healer and get them out of the fight quickly. In Arenas, even if the other teams healer was gosu level, you could still win by forcing the healer to go OOM. Post-Cata and especially now in Retail, it's borderline impossible for healers to go OOM. I hate how the only way to really play Arena is just wait for the enemy teams healer to fuck up. That takes the control of the battlefield out of the players hands and just relies solely on a random chance that their healer sucks more than your healer. It's dumb and bad game design. And the fact that they did these for non-healer classes too is stupid AF. Also, the fact that Paladins and Druids can do everything efficiently is also dumb. Why can a Protection Paladin in Arena slap just as hard, if not harder than a Ret Paladin while still being able to heal like they're Holy? Same with Druid. I'm sorry, exactly how many times are you going to use a heal on yourself while stunned in bear form?) - Poor Reward Structure (For BG's I think Blizzard can really take a page out of Wrath of the Lich King's book here in terms of playability and reward structure. Honor Gear in Wrath doesn't cost an arm and a leg to get. It doesn't require that you jump through these weird-ass hoops to turn your PvP gear into higher tier stuff. It was just here's a piece, it costs this much, this is the best you can get until Arenas. Have at it. In one day from a fresh 80 in BG's you can go from just hitting level 80 to good enough gear that you can handle anything but the most juiced Arena players random BG's have to throw at you, and even at that you can still outplay the Arena geared people who came in just to pub stomp. BG gear geared you out for what you fought most of the time in BG's, and in a timeframe that didn't feel like a waste or a slog, and didn't require you go have to buy a piece for X amount of Honor then upgrade said piece for an additional Y amount of Honor. When it comes to Arenas, perhaps Blizzard can take some inspiration from Destiny, back when that game was good. Doing the Crucible in Destiny, which for those who never played it was essentially that game's Battlegrounds, still rewarded you with something whether or not you won or lost the match. The odds of getting a piece of gear from a loss were DRASTICALLY lower than the odds of getting a piece of gear from a win, but you still got SOMETHING. A token. Some currency, so on and so forth. Your time never felt wasted even though you lost. And then when you did occasionally get that random piece of gear for a loss, it felt like the game was looking out for ya, wanting you to keep grinding those wins. Of course if you won your matches getting a piece of gear was almost guaranteed. And in the super unlikely event you didn't get a piece of gear, you got a significantly larger purse of the stuff you got from a loss, so winning still felt like the goal, but you didn't hate everyone if your team happened to lose. Arenas giving you nothing but useless honor for a loss in current Retail I think is the leading contributing factor as to why people are so toxic towards their teammates. Because everybody who loses feels like their time was wasted, and like Venruki said, nobody is willing to be accountable for anything.) - Mandatory Addons (Like Venruki and others have stated in the past, addons shouldn't be mandatory. They should be quality of life tweaks that makes things easier. They shouldn't dictate what your character is able to do in any given situation, and they should NOT be used as a substitute for skill. I'm not just talking about Weak Auras or anything like that, but people have made the argument on the forums and everywhere else that if you don't have addons you're bad at the game and you're deliberately throwing your Arena matches for your teammates. That's just an excuse for people's lack of skill. While I stopped playing Retail back when Classic came out, I still casually dabble in it every so often. I managed to get to 2400 and some change back in Battle For Azeroth Season 1 because I wanted the weapon and armor set purely for the visuals because the stuff for plate wearers was so close to the Human in the WC3 cinematic I just had to have it. I made it there with only a bag addon and a gathering addon. People call BS and say the only way I did that was by paying for it. Not true. I'm just not an idiot and I paid attention to what was going on. The game gives you everything you need to win. People just don't wanna put in the effort. And addons encourage that.) - No Class Identity (This has been a big complaint for a lot of people for a long time, myself included, which is why I inevitably jumped ship from Retail to Classic. As a Warrior I want my plate armor to actually make a difference in physical combat. While I hate being kited to oblivion and back, I love knowing that when I do finally get my hands on someone, they're most likely gonna die. I love how Rogues in Classic can get crazy with it during their stun windows, but if you manage to survive their stun window burst, they're basically tissue paper. Mages could basically one shot you if you weren't careful, and could one shot themselves against certain classes if they themselves weren't careful and really felt like they had this magnificent chaotic power that was just barely under their control. Classes in Classic were designed around an idea. They were balanced around an idea. Now a days they're just balanced around people who like to whine a lot. Retail WoW is what happens when you have a kid who's prone to temper tantrums and you give him/her whatever they ask for whenever they start to throw a fit.)
I am playing WoW PvP since vanilla. I did every season as a casual that there was. What I believe to be the problem: 1. wow became a single player game. - Solo shuffle is the best example for this. Your team mate becomes your enemy, so you don’t have to make friends. 2. Pvp has no rewards. Especially because gearing got so easy. - before when gearing was a mission. It didn’t matter if I lose, I still made progress, as my goal was a full set. - think about older seasons. Unlocking the shoulders was a big win! 3. MMR The raiting system is made for pro players not for casuals. If pros can make a rank 1 push in the last week of the season, the ranking system is broken. League of legends takes month to reach top elo and that’s good. This prevents pros from playing in low lobbies and keeps the gap between casuals and pros. 4. You will always lose 50% of your games once you reached your skill cap. So then we all stop playing as the fun is gone. No rewards, no friends, no reason to play, not all of us can/want to improve.
Players made solo shuffle a necessity. It is not fun to see your group being disbanded after just one loss. Also some players actually want to play the game. Forming a group for pvp also takes time, especially when you are a low ranked player.
Loving these semi longer videos. Your chill vibe is great for these kinds of discussion videos. Hope to keep seeing them. Doesn’t even have to fully be pvp, enjoyed the most recent ones about the game in general.
My reason is just shuffle que times and the fact that dev’s don’t listen to us. And if they do, it’s months later and half the time they change whatever we complained about into something worse. DH’s have been extremely oppressive for so long with NONSTOP complaints and they just keep getting slap on the wrists lmao.
For me it was the bloat. There's so much of it. 300 buffs I need to have memorized and keep track of, I need 9 different addons that cover my whole screen and I need to pay attention to all of them, I need to push all 20 of my buttons effectively, I need to pay attention to where everyone is, it's not fun it's just stressful. It feels less like I'm fighting with other players and more like I'm fighting with my UI.
I've said this before and I'll say again it. We need a "PVP mode." where when we enter PVP we get a different talent system from the ground up, different abilities and different bars. The game needs to be trimmed down massively for PVP. It cannot be homogenized, but in many ways retail needed that homogenization for content like M+. The only solution is 2 different game modes. Not just PVP talents as many of those just increase button/ability bloat.
the number of times i go pee at a 30 minutes solo shuffle q and come back to not being in q. That's a big problem. this isn't a problem with a lack of incentive or this or that being op or poeples behaviour. It is a game system that stops you from playing. Easy fix.
For solo shuffle queue times, i believe they need to fix healer mmr gains, so healers actually queue and remove the « balancing » effect they put to avoid double specs in a single game, who cares if there is 2-3 dh in the game if queue times are less than 5 minutes for dps
I would queue on my healer BUT he is 2.3mmr (because of last season) and I don't feel like sweating against the best players while I don't even have 1k cr.
We already get free mmr anyway, the rewards have never been easier to get and you want it to he even easier? Do everyone a favor and go play in traffic.
@@EmilJ1998 agreed but class balance commentary aside, some tanks can solo tank Vandaar Stormpike with 0 towers down and some days 2/3 epics are Premades, those games are usually either over via 3minute Zerge or 35+minute honor farm. Sure beating premades can be done but it’s the exception not the rule. Hangar outperforms Workshop+Docks together in Isle of Conquest and defenders are at a significant disadvantage in Wintergrasp. Classes should never be tuned around casual lvl bgs but considering that casual level pvp is where new players first interact with the game mode the bgs should at least function as designed. There isn’t really much counter play against 8healers and 4 tanks with a coordinated leader. Allowing Premades to run shop keeps new players from learning and more players is good for pvp as a whole.
One of the problems is that noone knows how things work in PVP. You basically have to "Rextroy" every single ability to really understand everything. And every single spec in the game is overbloated with useless buttons "that need to be pressed in one specific moment" just because devs designed them like that. Recently one shaman talent decreased something instead of increasing as the tooltip says. At one point grounding totem became an aoe cloak of shadows on 30 sec CD for no reason... Garrote used to require stealth and I played a couple of seasons in BFA without it because I do not reread all the tooltips every single patch and I didnt play for a while... You have those DK abilities that deal 250% more damage in PVP. Why are there still no PVP tooltips toggle? Also tooltips lie a lot. That sniper shot do NOT do 20% of enemy HP. Its muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more. And its not an exception and as I said, we are forced to "Rextroy" every single ability to know how it actually works vs what tooltip says.
also i think there should be like an "in flames" effect alreeady on the default ingame interface so new players can notice when somenone is "bursting" so they know when to use defensives, instead of waitin for somenoe to teach you how to pvp, and same for defensives, like in the awc interface. thee basics should be on the game you buy, not after 1 year of learning the game. And sorry for my english tho im tryin but im drunk.
Truthfully, arena should just be its own client at this point. There is legitimately no argument as to why the game needs the MMORPG element at this point. There are two concepts of PvP, instanced based competitive play, and sandbox style world pvp. If bliz wants to begin bringing back sandbox style elements to the game, such as base creation and convoys and the whole 9, then world PvP would surge again. But as it stands, in terms of competitive 3v3 arena; they could have an entirely stand alone client specifically balanced for arena. Imagine they Scrapped HotS and instead fitted it to be a strictly arena based game. The only point is rewards that have been acquired, but there is no issue with linking rewards between games to show off a Gladiator mount in the world of Warcraft client from the Warcraft Arena client. They share rewards across games already
Me and my wife (both mostly pve-players on mythic level with me having dabbled around 2.1k back in cata/mop) recently peaked into AWC and my Wife said after a few minutes that she has absolutely no idea what is happening and what she is supposed to look out for. I can only imagine how this would be so much worse for new players coming to the game and trying to get into it. This is not just a PvP problem, but the game relies waaay too much on external resources to figure out what to do and what to pay attention to if you want to stand a chance....
i agree, since the pvp trinket bonus of Stamina changes with the intellect nerf, and then further RANDOM armour nerfs to balance druid, i've found it incredibly difficult to do anything, even when i play well.
the biggest problem is what you advocated for; consistent damage. The game has 'evolved' into doing your PvE rotation in arena to win you games. Sure, you have to cc every now and then but the classes that excel the most are the ones that do the most damage and don't die or have enough cc to allow their partner to do this. Some classes aren't designed to do a lot of consistent damage and that's okay, bring back the chess element of PvP instead of just playing checkers the entire time and smacking your face on the keyboard until someone dies.
Venruki, there's a video of you and Mitch double Frost Mage-ing in 2v2s from 5.4 on YT that I saw the other day and it's great. You use the base UI and while I assume you have some addons, it's pre-WA so your UI is super clean and it's a joy to watch. It's slower, but not "classic" slow, and just looks like a much better game than now. 5.4 was peak PvP popularity too, they need to go back and look what made MoP so beloved and just do that.
@@125conman Yeah, but they hated it for non-mechanics and non-gameplay reasons. I also think a lot of those people who hated it look back on it very fondly now.
I really like your take on 95% of PvP rewards being participation based. Like give two ways of earning all rewards except gladiator stuff. And the higher rated requirement reward just make it require more games played. Example: Elite set = 500 games played or 1800. 2100 enchant = 1000 games played or 2100. Something like that. It encourages people playing more, so overall participation goes up, especially for noobs
The "Rogue off global" problem is because there is no professional class balance lead at Blizzard. There is no Balance or Design philosophy that is enforced when designing classes, they just wing it or assign it to whoever has capacity. Which is why we have such OP classes vs others. No consistancy.
For me its really simple what the problem is. All of the PvP community has now been scattered across like 4 versions of WoW, and its about to be 5 versions. The ladder is literally completely dead in Europe. When you play 2v2 and 3v3 at higher then 2k mmr you face the same 3 or 4 teams over and over because theres nobody playing, It is EXTREMELY hard to push rating since everyone left playing are multiglads and elites, the casual PvPers have all quit or joined an older expansion because they liked that one better or whatever. Theres literally nobody above gladiator rating, what is it? like 500 people in entire Europe above 2400 in regular ladders, and max 2000 players above 2400 in solo shuffle, When has it ever been this low participation in the past? i actually love PvP in this expansion, only a few specs seem terrible in this meta but most of the specs you have at least a chance to win against everything unlike couple patches ago when ret paladin was just completely busted. Damage from some specs can be abit problematic sometimes when you play against some melee cleave in 3v3 and they just kill someone through 3 stacked defensive cooldowns in like 3 seconds, like Windwalker/DH or something like this completely braindead. Re releasing classic versions of the game has shattered the entire pvp community and new players who try to get into PvP feel overwhelmed trying to play it because they are getting smashed by veteran players running all the addons and weakauras, me and my friends have actively been trying to help new players to get into PvP and help them setup UI, addons and everything and help them understand the game with positioning and cooldown trading and so on but many of them just play for a day and you dont see them again for like a month. Me personally i have invested a lot of time in dragonflight in PvP and actually try to improve myself the best i can and its just so super tryhard at 2100 mmr in any bracket that one mistake will lose the game, its insane to be this difficult to get gladiator. In the past even Asmongold could get gladiator for gods sake lol End of rant
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is the frustration that arises due to abilities doing different things in pve than in pvp, and the fact that there is so little translation of game knowledge from one to the other. I try to tweak my build to include some nice rotational synergy or to line my burst up with a partner of a specific class only to find that the ability I was hoping to use was nerfed sometime back in legion to only do 25% damage in pvp, or the cdr talent I took is only half as effective in pvp. In every recent expansion this has been the reason I stopped pvping.
Don’t try to make your own build and do your own thing. Play a reliable comp, watch a guide, get the proper build and gear and enchants and line up cc for damage
this is the worst. I dont know how there is no way to lookup the pvp scaling in the tooltip. Why is there no toggle and no way to look up the ability tooltip for pve and pvp when hovering over talents ???
One of Retails biggest problem for me is the class identity being the lowest on the priority list. Every class can basically do everything now when before picking a class used to be based on a certain criteria like CC, Utility, Movement, Damage, Cooldowns, etc. If every class has a self heal, stun, slow, movement CD, immunity, and what not then everything is just a mess in my opinion. It makes picking a class only feel like a preference and even more of a cosmetic.
The devs don’t address major issues until it’s way too late, they let broken things go on for too long, then way after a season ends “oh we noticed X spec was overperforming”.
I've wanted it for ages, but what they really need to do for PvP is just have different modes you can play. Instead of the options just being random BGs or solo shuffle or arena, pick what kind of pvp you want to do. Like say, queue for Team Deathmatch and you'll get put into arenas. Queue for capture the flag, and it puts you into a queue for stuff like warsong gulch or twin peaks. Queue for defend and conquer, puts you into Arathi Basin or Battle for Gilneas. Just a few examples. They need to have more BG maps and this would be good. Like, if all I want to do is play capture the flag, that should be an option.
All started in BC, i think, was the first occurence of blizz giving another class a similar ability as another class. It was hunter getting a mortal strike effect, which was exclusive to warrior at that time
People keep saying "give more reward to healers to fix queue times." That's not going to solve the problem. Healers don't queue because it's not fun to play.
My favorite part of solo shuffle is hitting 70, queueing up in pvp greens and going 5-1, then the next 4 games you go 0-6 to 1800-1900 decked people who bitch at run you down the entire time like you asked to with the 1800s at 142 rating.
Less buttons. Rock paper scissors. Rework the mitigation…. The huge reliance on stuns is a feel bad mechanic. It’s not a reward, it’s just punitive. Bots should be used at low level brackets. Once certain rating is obtained, no more bots. Passive currency reward for wins and losses (more for wins) to be spent on gear, cosmetics, ect. PVP rewards should be like the times of when people had houses…. (Not the same) but the point is that there should be a world skill tree which can be specced into as one gets currency. PVP Players can spec into more PvP specific, PVE the same.
Really good point about how all of rogues mobility is off global. Since DH is the other really broken melee, I would like to point out its I think one of the only classes in the game where their mobility does damage. And not just some damage, but Fel Rush will hit for 100k when empowered. Hunt isa burst. Meta does huge dam, Vengeful retreat makes grants immunity and rage. I think they need to tone it down with certain mobility. Just imagine if a mage did 100k to you just for blinking through you lol. Lets chill, melee mobility is already broken, but these small intricasies make it a disaster for the health of the game.
RBGs have 10x more problems then 3v3s do. If you struggle finding 2 people, imagine trying to find 1 tank and 3 healers and 6 dpss, ye it’s hard. 30 minutes forming to get rolled by a booster group then your group disbands.
Homogeneity is definitely a problem. Rock paper scissors is way more interesting and substantially easier to balance, and when you are slightly off on balance, it doesn't feel game ending.
I've played the game since 2004. The barrier to entry 20 years ago was nonexistant. You would just que into PVP and you were PVPing as soon as there was room in a BG... rarely 10 minutes, and usually 3 or 4 in practive. Now it's considered a good day to only get a 10-20 minute que, and you usually aren't wanted if you're playing the wrong class, undergeared, or new. TBH there's nothing other than the set recolor to make me want to PVP anymore, our last new BG was on July 17th, 2018... that was 6 years ago. I'm not a gladiator, I'm not a good PVP player, I'm just casual now in PVE, and on the odd chance that I try to get into PVP as happens 2 or three times per expansion, I'm very much incentivized to just pack it up and leave. I would imagine new players have an even worse experience... And god help them if they like playing a tank, because they will get the most select whispers from players who feel they are "wasting their time" because of poor design.
They need to remove all the addons, and integrate Details/Gladius into the game. The biggest problem i think is that no new player is trying PVP, they get clapped in a casual BG so they just stop after one game. Also by removing addons without a doubt the average players mmr will be much lower making for a better new player experience. They also need to fix the gearing for casual content, I think having two different gear sets required for unranked PVP and PVE is a huge deterrent, as it prevents casual PVE players from entering PVP content while they are questing or farming. Also buff PVP rewards, honestly they should probably just include the new mythic mount as a recolor in any box with a .1% or less drop rate. Longer Q times, harder to find teammates, and feeling the need to play "meta comps" is a result of players just not playing PVP.
The rogue/Dh dev needs to be fucking fired. Dude has been the lead dev for these 2 classes for the past 4 xpacs. And look how strong thry have consistently been in pvp and pve
Both classes are just so obnoxious to play too. I play an ele sham mainly I can't out dmg them, out heal them or outrun them so I'm basically just fucked 😂
100% the problem with retail pvp is there's way too many debuffs/buffs and spell interactions that you're required to use all these add-ons that clutter your screen and burns you out. You shouldn't have 30 different icons under your portrait
- Balance in generel -> wth are hunters? Run and Gun.... dont get me started with meeles.... - Still no Playground -> i'll have to Q to actually Test, get better, or learn other classes and spells. Makes no sense to Q 10-30 Min for new players to "learn". - Elo System in SoloQ -> lose 4:2 = lose 50+ points -> win 4:2 = +8 points.... makes 0 sense. - Too many stuff to keep track. 5k Kicks, Stuns, slows, everything
I just started playing PVP again after not playing since SL S1 - was duelist level. I currently play resto druid in solo shuffles (finding a 2's group in OCE is ... yeh). The healer swing in solo shuffle is incredibly punishing and flat out ridiculous. The fact that I can progressively get 10-15 rating over 10 games and then lose ALL of that rating in 3 shuffles as a result of losing to lower MMR healers makes me just want to quit. I yoyo up and down in a 1600 rating area. On the flipside, I've played 30 rated 2's and I'm 1700 already. I have played 400 rounds of solo shuffle. Why on earth isn't the MMR split across the average MMR of the entire shuffle? What on earth. This also has knock-on effects for queue times for DPS. Who, when they get into a shuffle are already annoyed for waiting so long and one mistake descends into outright toxicity and griefing.
@@Drimirinthat’s when your nostalgia peaked, you’ll never be that young and fresh to the game as back then so it was exciting. The game wasn’t any better back then that’s why no one plays wrath now
I started healing for the first time this expan. I play HPAL and did heroic/mythic raid and M+. Started hated how elitist people were to play with. So I said fuck it imma go heal pvp and found 2 chill AF dudes to play with. We don't win a lot but I play and learn and still have fun
the war within (wow2, some people say) is the only time that wow can make an AMAZING flip side, pvpers and influencers like ven and others need to stop being quiet if we want changes
Some things not listed I feel as tho need addressing... mana/dampening every class needs a "mana tea" ability or increase healing overall for all classes. The HP buff recently is making mana being spent hurting matches in the long run. This change alone made games 10mins+ long 85% dampening.
Good video as always. The best point for me is the lack of attention to unrated PvP. If more people can be motivated to do BGs and skirmishes, they can learn how to play (the basics at least). Keep pinnacle awards for the best of the best and add more reasons to do BGs and skirmishes. Why isn’t the skirmish reward quest every week for example?
Yeah I’d like to see something done about the Premade epic bgs it’s been out of hand for a while, you either get Zerg stomped in 3mins, farmed for 30+mins or it’s a knockdown drag out slog fest usually ending in a loss for the non premade group. Sure pulling out wins over a premade isn’t impossible but it’s the exception not the rule. Hard to beat 8 healers and 4 tanks with a strong leader in an epic. That’s pretty much the training grounds for new pvp players.
@@spindoggytheexplorer2915 you make a good point. Did the random BG quest on an alt and got four straight not even close stompings. Maybe they need the match making from SOD that prios solo ques and against solo ques. Why on Earth that isn’t just a baseline feature is a mystery to me.
I stopped because of the time investment required for rewards. To get the mythic mount in dungeons, it’s linear progression. In PVP nothing is linear. There’s a billion class interactions to be aware of. If you don’t have spell timers set up, then you’re at a huge disadvantage. If you trade 1 thing incorrectly, you’ll die 2 minutes later. Que times. It’s just too difficult to get the rewards.
The barrier to entry for not just gear, but skill is way too high. Newbies that want to try it just get crushed upon entry, and then surprise surprise they never touch it again. The only PvPers left are the vets, which is why the queues feel so stagnant.
For me there is only 1 reason : Solo Shuffle queue times. Which game can let you wait 45min before entering a game and expects you to have fun ? It is outrageous !
Mes had an interesting idea a few months ago. He was commenting on pvp players needing to do pve to get "X" item and he was fine with it and believed PVE players should have an item they need/want from pvp to boost population presence throughout the season.
One of modern day pvps problems will always be the player. Like stated several times, people have zero patience. They think they should be top tier players instantly. No one has the drive to grind out loss after loss to get better 2 seasons from now, hell maybe even 2 expansions from now, and finally reach where they think they should be.
As a DK main : every class has more self heal than DK, class like DH and pal have a full immunity CD while having more burst and more stun. Basically DK only counter casters, but casters can't even play in this meta. Si basically you can only play war/DH/Pal with drood/priest as heal (I'm speaking 2v2 pvp).
Here are the main ones for me: - Too many buttons to press, overwhelmingly bloated - Dependency on addons, too many addons - Gearing grind takes too long, nobody has the time anymore to do it - Too much CC
They could make a pvp city, a larger version of the gladiators refuge... Why not have an arena like gurubashi in the middle where players can jump in. A big pvp hub where players can talk and hang out. AND why dont they poll the community constantly, they are viewing the data from one angle, a class could be good and be designed badly, a class could be bad but designed amazingly, like arms for example. They have the ability to make wow pvp good there isnt a real excuse...
For me the biggest thing is the micro CCs and the lack of shared DR between CCs and that DR needs to last longer. Cyclone is super cringe. Make it share DR with every other CC in the game. In addition the game is just a bit overdeveloped. Every class doesn’t need 2 CC abilities a kick four mobility skills, three defensives and seven proc interactions that if the stars align and weak auras make you aware of it, makes you one shot someone.
The most important thing wow pvp needs is more players. You cant tell a pvp player from League, or CS, or Overwatch: yo check out wow pvp, pay 50$ and 15$ monthly to try it out and you need to invest a lot of time to understand the fundamentals. Season 4 will be as dead as shadowlands, i thought shuffle will save it, but you cant fix healer/support shortage, that's common in any game. Overall they improved classes and gearing a lot and s1&2 was overall fun.
As a former r1 and multi gladiator player from legion, it’s annoying af to jump back into the game after several xpacs and having people talk shit saying your boosted or bought an account for being stuck at 1900 3v3. Like the games were totally different in terms of class, comp, meta, etc. and yet the general pvp population thinks you must be a twitch streamer and constant r1 or glad every season since otherwise you’re boosted. The achievement system also needs an overhaul to reflect this but idk how that would work.
Every time someone tells me to add them and I do I never speak to them again and they never speak to me again, so I've just cleaned out my friends list.
Arena is the epitome of wow pvp bruh wth you talking about. I’m pvp player in wrath classic and no pvp player ever said that about arenas lmao. Arena is THE pvp.
I've thought about coming back to retail, but I'd probably stick with DH. I've been enjoying SoD. I enjoyed solo shuffle a lot, but I never tried solo rbgs.
I think as monk your mobility is on global because it mostly has travel time, it would kind of feel completely useless if you shadow-stepped and then had to wait the full global to do something. I’m sure it also has to do with class feel. I remember back in the day when you had to first cast redirect to use combo points on an off target it would feel so clunky but now you can just do it straight up so you go from having a mechanic that leans more towards rewarding good decision making to one that leans more towards fast reactions.
Solo queuing as a boomy into any combination of DH, Ret, DK, War is pretty toxic. They just run at you all game and there's nothing you can do without a coordinated team.
For the average player who wants to play caster it's a pretty horrible experience. For a long time now we've had to deal with un-kiteable melee with almost 100% uptime. Arena at sub 2k is just infested with melee because it's easy. They don't have to try half as hard as a warlock to win a game. They just pve until the target runs out of shit, while stunning and interrupting. Porting does nothing, gating does nothing. The average melee s going to beat the majority of average casters just due to the ability to zug zug and never get kited. I'd love to play more but I just get tired of being tunneled for 6 rounds every game. If I faced more casters it would be a lot better but it's almost always triple melee. This is at around 1900.
