Thank you for this show and interview. Thank you Pastor Rick Warren for heeding the voice of God. Apology accepted. This will help me with my doctoral project on the subject of women called by God to pastor. My argument is based on some of the scriptures used in your thought and Ephesians 4.11. Also, my argument is based on the lack of hermeneutics used in the complementary theory. I believe in the Supreme authority and inerrancy of scripture not interpretation. Blessings to you sir!
My pastor opened our Church on Pentecost Sunday 2020. No Church should have been shuttered! Many of Saddleback congregants started to attend my Church because Saddleback was closed. In my women’s Bible study many women have stated that they are amazed with how much they’ve learned in the almost 3 years of attending because we go through the Bible as a study, book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, and word by word. Not watered down, taken out of context scripture.
What are you implying? So many people take the passage in 2 Peter out of context. Very few people read it as instructions for that church that he was writing to. So many, so many people do not understand the context or culture in which the Bible was written. HOW can you take the Great Commission out of context?
@@elisabethldavis I’m not talking about the Great Commission. We all are to share the Gospel. I’m talking about the watered down/taken out of context scripture teachings from Rick and the new Pastor Andy. The sermons are not sermons, more of a motivational talk.
Russell Moore and Rick Warren are examples of Godly and well-educated Christian leaders who are not being swayed by political nonsense. I am a graduate of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and am thankful that they are standing up for women who want and need to use their gifts and talents to serve the Lord.
@@erinfisher6354 that straw man argument was just another example of the degradation of the SBC as well as all mainline denominations. Our gifts serving the Lord are to be used according to scripture and the statement that women are being held back from this because scripture is clear regarding office of pastor and elder is ludicrous.
At 13:03 - the Great Commission - I went back and reread the text (I haven't read this bit in a while), and it says when the women went to the tomb in the morning, they met the risen Jesus. He told them to tell His brothers to go to Galilee and meet Him. Then, it says, When the eleven disciples (and we all know the eleven were men) met Jesus there on a mountain, He said 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore...' So it seems clear Jesus was speaking at that time to the eleven remaining disciples. Even so, this issue of women teaching or not teaching, pastoring or not pastoring, is it really a salvation issue? Somewhere in Paul's epistles, 1 Timothy 2, he did say 'I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man.' To me, this seems like Paul's own personal desire, as he said 'I do not...' rather than for example 'God does not...'. God bless you as we debate and wrestle with this.
We must remember that this is not only about women being able to exercise their spiritual giftedness as they believe they are being led to do by God. It is also about women being able to have access to pastoral ministry in the church at the same level as men do. After 60 years in the Baptist Church, this had not been the case for me, and as a licensed counselor in a Christian non-profit, I have heard the same from other women many times. Male pastors not only drastically outnumber women on chuurch staffs, they also minister much less, and in different ways, to women than to men. A woman may have access to a Women's Director for example, but not to one of several "pastors" in the same way that a man would. I can honestly say that in my sixty years in the Baptist Church, I have never considered myself as having had a pastor, or pastoral care, in my life. Only a "preacher". Women need ministry from pastors, and as the sexual problems of the church remind us, the best route is for female pastors to be available in adequate numbers on church staffs, and to be seen and valued as educated, trained, and competent to offer pastoral ministry at the same level as men.
As a Southern Baptist MK, thank you so much. I’ve very sorry to hear that Rick Warren was kicked out over this issue. He and his wife have ministered to me so much through their ministry. Being a daughter and related to so many SBC pastors and missionaries was positive but also painful and confusing growing up. Much of the church has created their own interpretations of scriptures that really are secondary issues and if you have a different interpretation, you are automatically labeled as liberal or woke. Because Of how I was raised, I never noticed the passages where women are so involved in ministry and used by Jesus. I think pastor Rick brought up a great foundational point that the Great Commission is for both men and women. That was never talked about and I felt second class as well as endured different abuses. This conversation ministered to me so much. God Bless!
Another suggestion above Women Roles in the church is to let Publisher like Intervarsity Press (IVP) publish a book of "4 or 5 conservative (Bible) point of views about the issues" which may take Decades or Centuries to Resolve but worth academic debates and discussions!!
Our church has baptised more people than any other church in American history. My book has been translated into more languages than any other book apart from the Bible. My church planted churches in 197 nations. My bill broke records when it was passed in Congress. Billy Graham heard about me. Just highlighting some of the arrogance.
For Warren to state that this issue is simply a disagreement over “what you name your staff” demonstrates either an ignorance of the actual issue on his part or an intentional “slight-of-hand” on what the issue is. Either way, it is quite problematic.
Acts 2 (and Joel's prophecy) doesn't say anything about women being church pastors, it just says they will "have spirit poured forth on them and prophesy." Doesn't negate Paul's teaching about it in 1 Cor. 14 or 1 Timothy 2, either. And saying Mary Magdalene was "the first preacher" is intentionally misleading- he's conflating "preacher of the gospel" with "church pastor" and they're not the same thing.
Agree with splitting hairs here. The first evangelical was the woman at the well. Jesus constantly went against culture and brought people to the heart of God. If he church believes so strongly against women pastors/leadership, why do men subject themselves to women coworkers, bosses, mothers? I lead my family to Christ everyday, along side my husband. We are together. As Eve was Adams helpmate. If those verses are to be followed, then shut the women up in the churches! But no one does that. They just keep them from being pastors. Just that one title. Women teach in the home and in the church. When do I stop teaching my sons? At what age should they no longer come to me with questions to learn from me? It is very difficult for people to look beyond their own culture and see that the 'laws' they live by are cultural laws, not biblical laws. And maybe a woman would feel more comfortable with a woman pastor after abuse, or even abused men. No man can tell me that God can't speak through a woman, use a woman to preach his gospel.
Also, Joel is not talking about the Church Age. Rick Warren should know that. It seems to me that he lied about John MacArthur, not sure why he would do that but he surely did. Pastor John has not and does not skip over any verse. You will find him discussing it in sermon(s) available on his website and also in his study Bible. Why would you lie Rick and why would Mr. Moore not correct you for lying? That is what stands out most to me in this interview. The deceit.
My suggestion is for Rick Warren and the Saddleback Church to join the Evangelical Free Church which is Conservative but less dogmatic about many issues like women pastors!
I saw Moore on a Ligonier National Conference once or twice...& have not seen/heard him until now-summer of 2023. I watched 2 of these shows and was disappointed. I thought he'd have some good, sound, solid preachers...sound theologically but instead we got (I got) Beth Moore rattling on, saying nothing we needed to hear...very, very little said re God, Christ, especially from Rick. He is robotized to tell for the millionth time about his (billion dollar book sales.) I cannot see this series by Moore lasting long. Doesn't he have a pastorate. It appears Warren will have the planet fully given the great commission by next several years so our great preachers as Sproul, Beeke, Ferguson, Spurgeon's sermons, etc...all this kind must be relieved and can quit preaching.
As far as Matthew 28:16-20 is concerned, isn't ignoring the fact that only the 11 male apostles were at that meeting at least somewhat relevant? Also, what about the total lack of evidence for actual women preaching in the book of Acts? Does that matter? In addition, it seems that Peter's reference to Joel doesn't explicitly endorse female preaching or teaching, at most just that they will prophesy. Further, might it not be somewhat relevant that the apostles, and the NT authors more generally, use the Old Testament pretty freely and loosely to demonstrate fulfilled prophesy in Christ? I mean, the text of Joel as quoted by Peter simply doesn't say that women preached or would preach. That itself seems to be eisegesis. Unless we conflate "prophesy" and "preaching" this passage is not taking about preaching. But prophesy and preaching those seem like clearly distinct functions. Finally, why does the women at the tomb equate to female pastoring? That seems to be a complete non-sequitur. Warren says that he only discovered these truths in the last 3 years, but this seem incredible? Not only are there better arguments for egalitarianism (there have to be better ones than these!), but to think that these arguments haven't been around for at least 40 years (see the Methodist and Episcopalian churches) seems at best, horribly ignorant. I hate to say it, but I think Warren is lying, mainly to himself (not to us). The better explanation for Warren's turn toward egalitarianism is cultural shift. I can't help think this unless he can present better arguments, both biblical and historical, for his case. Finally, let me say that Warren's use of the "black" churches is egregious and, likely sinful. That is a horrible "race-baiting" tactic that really needs to be called out. Also, to say that half the Church is on the sidelines (meaning women) is to say that if women cannot preach then they are useless. I have to say, that is a pretty low view of ALL the other spiritual gifts and roles in the Church. Talk about elevating preaching over all other functions of the Church and gifts of the Spirit. Paul doesn't do that, why should we?
@@elisabethldavis Honestly I have never heard a pastor pat themselves on their back as I have from Rick. The church is not his, the Church is Christ’s, not man’s.
I have been in SB churches all my life (became a believer in Japan) and now 76 yrs old. It is so sad that Jesus centered Christian churches can’t agree to disagree which is not essential to spread God’s love and Grace. All the history human scholars struggle to find what certain verses have been telling us from God and it should be ok to God as far as we are united with believing God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the great commissions. Why SBC picked one, two interpretations of the verses which are different from them which is not sin and kicked churches out because of that. Is our God such a small mind one?
Mr. Warren goes out of his way to bring Pastor MacArthur into the discussion likely out of conviction--he should not ignore that conviction, Pastor Warren, "Your sons and daughters will prophesy" is very consistent with teachings throughout the Bible. The gift of prophesy is not the same as the office of pastor.
The Bible tells us to love one another, that's not just for husband and wife it says love one another so we all need to love everyone as husband and wife do. Paraphrase but essentially the same logic Warren uses to say the great commission means anyone can be a pastor. Hard to believe he's actually honest when he says this is what he "believes now"
@@daperrera Depends on the translation but it's the Greek word for Elder, if I'm not mistaken. The word is less important than the office it refers to in the church.
15:03 Wow, lying is a sin. John MacArthur does cover this text. It takes 30 seconds to go to Grace to you type in that verse and you will see he covers it ( I just saw it). Not to mention the commentaries that also cover. Rick owes an apology for the lie he told here. More egregious is that his intention was to bash MacArthur with this lie.😬
Peter preaches on Pentecost. No woman preaches. Others (including women) may have been in evangelism (sharing). Pastor Warren seems to be eisogeting given that Jesus never chose a woman among his apostles, and nor do we hear of any woman being ordained to the office of elder in the NT church. In fact, not all men were elders because special offices depend on God’s call on people’s lives. And in the case of women, it is clear that in God’s sovereign will, He ordained that the leaders of the church be men and not women (Creation ordinance). Warren’s pragmatic statement says, “We will not fulfill the great commission with half of the congregation sitting on the bench.” To this I respond by saying accomplishing the great commission has to be done as God has ordained it not because it is pragmatically useful.
He's right. It's actually a fact. Many many interpreters have come up with different views of those passages. Life doesn't fit in your tidy box. Your arrogance is the reason why so many people and pastors leave churches.
@@andrewh7599 I think that there are actually dozens of ways we can interpret what Warren is saying here and it seems pretty arrogant of you to call it a fact and assume his meaning.
@@andrewh7599 appeasing the worldview and being relevant to others, while ignoring doctrine is sending people to hell and self righteousness. Just saying. The arrogance is someone who will change their doctrine to be more relevant to people and also removing context in the process. There is only one interpretation when in context. Just saying. People pleasing brings ungenuine followers. Its focusing on numbers i stead of changed hearts. "“Take care not to practice your righteousness in the sight of people, to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 6:1 NASB2020
@@HearGodsWord it's not an opinion, it's a fact... acknowledging that does not mean you're excluding the fact that there is Ultimate Truth. It's acknowledging the fact that many people can read something and make different conclusions. God's truth is out there, but who are you to think you've understood Him completely?
The Roman empire in Western North Africa and in Western Europe collapsed after it embraced Christianity @9:10. It survived in the East. The split in the East over the nature of the trinity and the persecution of the non-Chalcedonians in Egypt and Syria helped lead to the success of the Islamic invasion in those areas. Folks, all of this bickering over doctrine, rather than exhibiting Christian love ruins us.
I’m an EX-evangelical who is, personally, fine with women pastors, although I know the Bible is not. But Rick Warren’s inadvertent display at the SBC convention of ego, self-aggrandizement, passive-aggressiveness, and works-based personal superiority over his SBC opponents, including the entire worldwide SBC missionary effort, in his live response to SBC discipline (that he called a “love letter” to the SBC ?!), revealed Warren as a truly screwed-up and worldly man. A man who clearly has ZERO connection to the living Christ, is NOT “born from above”, and doesn’t even recognize and manage his own feelings, let alone recognize the voice of God in his Spirit, as he claims to be able to do, ad nauseum. Warren may have captured many cities, but he is unable to rule his own spirit. Part of why I’m “ex”, is shown by the evangelical response to Warren’s display, which was determined solely by political/theological agreement or disagreement. No one, besides this “liberal” Espiscopalian, seems to have recognized the unChristlike character on display, and was appalled in their Spirit by it, whatever their take on women pastors. No wonder so many evangelicals can’t recognize what Donald Trump is, either. It should be the MOST obvious to those with the Holy Spirit. What so many evangelicals REALLY have, is just an ideology and a theology, and the same old worldly methods of promoting them, not a new nature indwelt by Christ via the Spirit. So do I have that new nature, you ask ? I truly don’t know, but I know what it’s supposed to look like. I know for sure, that I’m NOT some superior version of a Christian Superhero. And that’s where I’m NOT like Rick Warren.
Paul was rhetorical in his writings. I Corinthians 14:33-34 are harsh words for women who have been co-workers with Paul in the formation of the early churches. These 2 verses don’t fit the passage after Paul tells the women to prophecy (which is greater than preaching or teaching) and pray with head coverings in I Corinthians 11. It is more likely that these 2 verses in Paul’s letter were a quotation from the opposition. In fact, in verse 36, Paul reacts to vs 34-35, “What! Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only one it has reached?
Is the word “Christianity” in the Bible? Can a female Pastor baptize you in water when she is on her cycle? Are any of theses denominational names in the Bible, Baptist, Jehova witness, apolstolic? Every “religion” out there has changed the true doctrine of The Holy Bible. Man has adjusted God’s law! Would we consider this blasphemy?
@Tony Peterson this is really about dividing the church into two camps- liberal and conservative. We vilify the other instead of focusing on the gospel.Do you believe he’s teaching a different gospel? If so that would be where I draw the line.
Once again very thought provoking. I do not agree with Rick Warren. My friend has been teaching on the passages he mentions in this interview for over 50 years. So, it seems interesting that his opinion has changed after dealing with these and hearing God the Holy Spirit, teach him concerning them for so long. Rick is a pretty present day into the future guy so the change coming in the last few years probably does not bother him at all. He is open to being wrong, we all should keep some kind of humble spirit in for some of us our last years of ministry. Even if both of us last upon this earth for 20 or 30 years. I do not get to speak to him at all anymore, we went to college together. We have been contemporaries since I met him for the first-time face to face, at 18 or so, in the freshman registration line at California Baptist College. He and Kay have been friends and confidants for a long time. We do not get to speak to him these decades, but I do remember much of what he has taught me and tens of thousands over these last years, even with very little one on one contact. But, for me they both still are. God bless you my old friend.
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15), either Rick Warren is being mislead by the devil and does not have the ability to discern or he does not love Jesus Christ as his Saviour. For Paul by the Holy Spirit notes quite clear about the creative order that is in place, in respect to women not speaking or preaching. And the church has no other tradition (1 Cor 11:16) than the one that Paul taught. This is not a cultural issue because Paul points to Genesis 2-3 to explain his position (1 Tim 10:15) during a time when there was no culture. More specifically, those who rebel as Warren and others are currently doing make it easy for those who by faith are steadfast in the Word of God to discern and have nothing to do with them (Rom 16:17-18).
He knows better or maybe he doesnt. Just dont see how someone that claims to have the knowledge he does and an effective study method come to this conclusion with out of context Scripture. So annoying. Too many of these celebrity preachers having their bad doctrine exposed. Between andy stanley, him, and others, im very disappointed at the doctrine they have started pushing to be relevant and the opportunities they are missing with the position the good Lord has gifted them with. Alot of it i think is because they are too focused on the numbers instead of people being genuine. In other words world appeasing for popularity. Money has some to do with that I believe. They are scared they might not get the support they once had and willing to abrogate doctrine to retain that. Satan is the master of confusion. Doctrine matters. This is way off from scripture. Just sayin. Context matters. The verse below is relevant as a response to rick, the words of Jesus: " “Take care not to practice your righteousness in the sight of people, to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 6:1 NASB2020
