@@brandenflasch 1.5x speed minimum on OOS videos lol. They're good videos, but a bit too long winded. I wouldn't watch most of these if I couldn't watch in fast speed.
I don’t intentionally ever make any video longer than it needs to be, but this is our style to show what we do. And in our case, they do perform just as well if not better if they’re long! We logged a chapter at the end for people who want to skip to results, but so many people question testing procedures that we leave everything in there
I’m here for the long format, nerd math videos. I don’t speed them up. Great to listen/watch while doing various household chores, especially dishes and laundry folding. Beats the hell out of broadcast TV. And no commercials (yes I have premium). Keep them coming @kyleconnor
I have a max pack on order and this makes me re-think. Thank you for the work. 317 for large pack vs 339.5 for max pack is very small a difference for the price paid
No disrespect but once it was confirmed to be a chemistry change only and no physical pack upgrade the range would at best be marginally better. Battery chemistry has not fundamentally changed in 15 or so months to see major gains. I maintain this is a PR move, Rivian didn’t want to fumble like they did with the price increase so they kept pushing as many people off the Max pack as they could until they finally relented and released. Sure it’s the longest range R1T but there’s a very small subset of people who “need” it and I’d wager most who do get it don’t think $10k is all that much money.
@@chrism3731 Personally I think they should have gone the route of saying the Max pack didn't meet their expectations and offered to have order holders either opt for the large pack or a full refund of the deposit. Much less baggage than a very marginal increase in capacity and all the videos comparing the price to performance.
A very small part of me really wanted to Max Pack to deliver a good punch, but I agree, it's not worth it. The one I am really interested to see is the standard pack vs large pack when that's available.
Probably would lose around 5% of range. Range decreases the most earlier in EVs. So the first 100k miles may decrease it 5-10%, the next 100k may be 5%
Basically well done Out of Spec as usual. Going beyond the call of duty. Push it to the limit so we don't have too and it gives you a piece of mind learning EV's. I have a R1T large pack as well and in always trying things as far as how I drive and how I charge, crazy like that I guess. I like the hour long as long as you dont keep repeating yourself. This eliminates all the what if questions about the vehicles. Love it keep it up Kyle.
I don’t dispute your test, but my results differ. My dual motor performance max pack R1T ($7000 for my max pack) hits very near the 400 mile range, in cold weather. I drive at 60 mph. Towing a 8000lb Airstream, efficiency is 1.1 mpkWh. I’m very satisfied with my truck and have no regrets over the max pack, the extra range can be critical when towing.
Great comparison. Completely agree it just should have replaced the large pack. Feel bad for max pack buyers that don’t watch your video. Rivian has really botched the max pack. Heavily promoted by Rivian pre-launch was supposed to deliver 400+ miles with 180 Kwh for the Quad motor and be first to be delivered. Then it was pushed to immediately follow the Launch edition. Now this…
Not to be too cynical here, but there's a pretty obvious reason that the Max Pack isn't 'more' in varoius ways: Rivian is getting pre-bump pricing reservation holders off the books for the mininum cost possible. Anything that's physically better/bigger, higher voltage, etc is going to be Max+ or Ultra or whatever they call it...just not "Max Pack". And fwiw, this is speaking as a Max R1T owner, happy to have gotten it at the price we did, but doubtful either the Max or Quad are really 'worth it' at current MSRP pricing.
Glad I took my Quad Large rather than waiting longer. Still a bit curious about Quad in Conserve vs Dual in AP - to keep it abbreviated since they have the same pack, just do an efficiency test. Thanks!
I'm not sure there would be a difference?? Both would be using the same battery pack and rear wheel drive for the most part (the Dual would use the front motor for a little bit at the beginning and when they turned around but it would be very slight usage). I guess it would be interesting the see how the Bosch motor stacks up against the in house Dual though. I have a Dual motor non-performance R1T myself and love it.
I’m getting the sense that originally Rivian planned on offering the Max Pack as a genuine extra pack of batteries but decided to cost cut and not chase it at all because of added manufacturing complexity, cost, cell availability, etc. Instead of just discontinuing the Max pack, they are just using the same assembly process and changing the type of batteries slightly.
I’ve watched many of these videos and I love them. I just bought a model 3 LFP and when I went to my parents house over Christmas I had the knowledge I needed to spend the least amount of time charging thanks to this channel so appreciate it and keep it up!
What kind of real world highway mileage do you get with yours? I had a M3P and at 75mph not in winter, I realistically could only get 265 or so miles despite the car being advertised at 310 miles. When it was near freezing, I would be lucky to get 225 or so miles on a full charge.
Excellent work gentlemen! Can’t help but think these results will cause Rivian to rethink the $10k premium once word gets out and embarrasses them a bit.
Back in 2020 at Fully Charged Live in Austin, the Rivian rep told me the reason why Max pack would not be on R1S is because the physical pack would extend into the storage space below the rear seats on the R1T and you would lose the subwoofer - so they imagined in the beginning a much larger pack with higher capacity...seems they just relied on cell chemistry updates to try and get more out of it in the same physical size - worth it to me? Nope, happy with my Large pack Quad motor.
Thank you for doing this test. I plan to purchase a Rivian after Thanksgiving this year. This information will help me make the best choice for my planned usage.
Next up a large pack vs the regular pack (which doesn't exist at the moment of course). It would be very interesting to see how a long road trip might be affected by the difference and perhaps the regular pack being a different type of battery would have a better charging curve. I await your tests hopefully in the not too distant future.
I appreciate the breakdown. I'm a 6 year Model X / Model S owner right outside of Loveland. I test drive an R1T in Denver soon so.. this gives me some solid insight on the $10k pack addon consideration. I appreciate the time and energy you all put into your content for those of us that enjoy a solid geek out session. Take care!
I just drove my brand new Max Pack Performance from Dallas, TX to Northern, CO. I could not have made the trip without watching your videos. What a fun trip! Yes. The max pack is expensive, but I would pay 10K more for another 50 miles too. This truck rips. And it handles the snow and ice so well. I would go Max Pack any day of the week. It's all about range
Good comparison test. I'd like to see more side by side tests. Your realworld testing loop works for me. I want to see what each vehicle will do out on the road, not on a test stand. Keep up the good work.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2525">42:05</a> - It doesn’t turn red at 7%, it turns red at 30 miles remaining. Which is based on your drive mode. So if you’re in tow mode and it turns red, just switch to All-purpose, and it will jump even out of yellow. 😂 (Yellow is 50 miles remaining.)
Coming from your Cybertruck video, the Revian interior is so nice. You guys are correct about the Pringles I now buy the medium size because there is no stoping without restarting pretty soon 😂
Yeah, the app warnings are funny. I was on a towing road trip when my wife got a screenshot of the app warning “0 miles remaining” while I was still on the highway. 😂 (Stretched it to one more exit that had a 350kW station immediately off the highway, instead of the one-stop-earlier that would have been a couple miles off the highway to get a 62.5kW.)
My quad large pack with 20k mix has gone 4mi past "zero miles". I was driving under the power output limit but at 35mph climate off. Never hit the bottom thankfully!
Rivian should source the Qilin battery from CATL, for the max pack. It would be interesting the offroad comparison between the dula motor, and quad motor
For a company that has previously met very high expectations set, this is very disappointing. This should be cancelled and simply replace the Large Pack and they should come out with an Actually Max Pack that’s 180-200+ kWh and uses the extra space on the R1T. Glad you were able to provide the needed consumer buying advice on this.
Yeah, when Max Pack was first announced, it was clear that it was going to be a physically larger pack with more modules, with a ~25% increase in capacity. This is just a chemistry change causing slightly increased power density in the same form factor. (Which allows the R1S to get this increase, too,) combined with the dual-motor efficiency increase. I’d like to see a true Max Pack that is both the chemistry change PLUS the extra modules.
I’m going to be a bit of a contrarian and say it’s actually kinda nice if it ages okay, also means if you do 80% you get about 20 extra real miles, all without extra weight (which would definitely affect offroad capability) and ofc Tesla has charged more for less in the software category.
Almost as if Rivian ran out of money in development of the Max pack, and they don't want to axe the whole idea hence this...half hearted Max pack for the production version.
Myself and my partner thank you for your videos. They are very informative and helping us as we wait to get ours. We were wondering if you could do a towing video comparison on the efficiency between the large pack and the max pack?
From everything I've seen, Towing seems to halve the range of every electric truck at 70mph/highway speeds. Especially if it's a large profile trailer like a camper where the wind resistance becomes more important than the weight. Barring some sort of very weird anomaly, towing would make the range difference even smaller. Assuming a 22 mile range difference at that temp, it could be as bad as an 11 mile range difference towing. Given their assume ranges of 339.5 and 317 miles, that would be 169.5 vs 158.5 miles range (7% difference). So your tires, and heating usage would have a bigger effect than the "Max" Pack.
According to you testing, which is more "real world" than factory, I didn't make a mistake by not holding out for the Max pack battery. Particularly since Rivian changed their definition form 180 kw down to just a change in chemistry with same physical size. If the ever off a REAL max pack, there are a fair number of R1 drivers who would do the change---providing the dual motor reliability is competitive.
‘22 Rivian R1T Quad owner, LOVE mine, I was wanting the Max pack but honestly couldn’t wait. Glad I didn’t, next Rivian I get will probably be a R2 for the spouse, or a dual motor regular R1S.
Max Pack gets you 11 more kWh which equates to 22.3 miles. At $10,000 that’s $448 per like. The extra miles are approximately halved if you’re towing. <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="60">1:00</a>:21 The Max Pack is a complete waste of money.
Yeah, I have a quad-motor Large pack with 20”+AT tires. The worst case scenario for range in a Rivian. And I tow with it. ~280 miles nominal range. The Max Pack just isn’t worth it, even for me. If through some freak my vehicle had to be replaced, and Rivian offered me pre-price-increase Max Pack to replace it, I still wouldn’t take it. I’d go for the Quad Large again. (And I barely use the extra Quad capability.)
Excellent testing and explanation! For sure this should have been a $1000 upgrade and call it large plus or something. Now that they've called it max, and charged 10k for it, it will be tough in the future if they do end up coming out with 180 kw without pissing a lot of people off or opening themselves up for some sort of lawsuit.
Is there a towing test somewhere for the large battery duo motor version yet? If it gets half efficiency while towing it would go 150 miles on full charge and 120 miles 80% charge.
What would be your opinion in the opposite direction - cut 30 miles of range off, and reduce price by $10k? If you don't think it's worthwhile to pay $10k for 30 miles then by the same token you'd have to say that you would give up range in exchange for $$.
This raises an interesting question: The trucks both get 2.4 miles per kWh. But the difference between the Large and Max is 11 kWh, and 22 miles. What happened to the other 4.4 miles (0.4 miles per kWh)?
Was waiting on this video FOREVER, dropped the day we paid for and a day before taking delivery of our dual motor max pack. Oh well. Paid $1k up charge for dual performance over quad and $7k for max pack.
Oh man. Love this geeky video. I belive this is the only way to do this withoug going to a lab. Question: You are talking about using the buffer. They way I like to think about it, you can never use the buffer, because that is the protection that cant be used. While some models have a usable zero buffer. That is not a buffer, but a non linear scale making 0-1% larger than the rest of the scale. Do I think wrong about this? For me the buffer is the capacity between the net and gross battery. For the max pack you got 143kWh net, and it should be 149 gross. So a buffer of 6kWh. (bottom and top buffer combined) (probably less because of heat loss when pulling energy). Do you agree?
Great test, most folks that want the max pack are getting it for towing or road tripping. $10k for 20 miles in winter, maybe 30 miles in summer won't be worth it for most people. I wonder what the degradation curve is on that new chemistry? If it degrades quicker (so in a few years the max pack has the same range as a large pack), then that would make it an even worse proposition. However, if it degrades slower then that may make it worthwhile.
@@0HOON0I don’t really see them as competitors. Rivian is premium and 3/4 size, Ford is normal grade and full size. I don’t think Rivian would want to cheapen the R1T as it will be the flagship once the R2 comes out.
@outofspec My quad motor large pack is showing about 93% SOH in the service mode screen. It's got 23k mi since March '23. A video of your quad, comparing real-world capacity vs service mode SOH would be a great idea!
Seems like, if anything, they’re pushing the max pack way less hard. The charging curve and peak is basically the same as the standard pack, which means the max pack C rate is lower.
@@callumcurtis15 C rate is C rate though… and the specs on these cells are similar other than the energy density. So it stands to reason the max pack is less stressed during charging than the long range pack.
So a question. Any chance of testing the towing range of the twin motor/large pack/21” rim option? Interested in whether the towing setting allows the rear motor to disengage and what the impact would be at towing speeds of 50-70mph.
Great video! My only question is do we think on charging and capacity they might overly restricted by software like they did with the large pack at launch? For now I am sitting happy with my large pack.
Both are possible to be adjusted overtime. I confirmed are charging results were consistent with MissGoElectric’s R1T Max - they can unlock capacity up to the theoretical 149kWh gross capacity, but will stress the cells if left sitting at high / low SoC. Charging can be adjusted with software easily, but everything is a compromise
@@KyleConner I do think the charging will get better, or at least I hope so, it just feels like they are using the max pack as a ploy to get into profitability sooner versus adding range.
I appreciate longer videos, but some of these hour plus long videos are too much. Bjorn Nyland also publishes a very handy little chart at the end of his videos that show how each car compares. Would like to see something similar. Onto the Rivian… I drove an R1S Quad Motor Large Pack a few weekends ago at their Nashville, TN location. I was honestly not very impressed with the vehicle. It rides terribly. Bouncy AF. The efficiency was abysmal in my test drive at less than 2mi/kWh and the suggested charging stops in the Rivian navigation system averaged 45-65 minutes each. By comparison on the same route my Kia EV6 requires fewer stops and each stop is only 15-20 minutes at most. I can drive 600 miles from Nashville to E. North Carolina with 2 or 3 charging stops. Rivian needs to jump to 800V and drastically improve efficiency. The efficiency mode should switch to RWD, not front wheel drive, and the dual motor models need a disconnect like Porsche, Kia/Hyundai/Genesis and now Mercedes-Benz are using across their dual motor AWD EVs. It would also be good to see them include a torque vectoring rear diff on dual motor models not only for improved handling but also for improved off road ability in tricky situations.
Own an R1S Quad motor. It's strength is it's versatility, but otherwise it's been a disappointment. Real world range is poor. Multiple road trips and even in conserve mode I'm getting around 1.7 miles / Kwh. Bummer to have paid for an all wheel drive SUV that I have to keep in front wheel drive. Agree the ride is bouncy. It also does not feel as nimble or connected to the road as the suspension in my 20 year old Toyota SUV. Underwhelming in terms of features and functions (could care less about a "camp" speaker) and have come to realize it's a pretty stripped down car for the price.
@@daadreeb6582 Im sorry you don’t love yours. I am glad I drove one because I had always been curious about them, but left disappointed. I was really not impressed with much about the R1S from a driving/ride quality perspective. I didn’t go off road, but for on-road driving it would have driven me insane how rough it rode and how loud it was. Little things like the low resolution of the cameras were disappointing as well. Why include 10+ cameras just to make them so low res they’re all hard to see? I was also a little surprised the driver assistance systems only work on certain highways. You can’t just set autosteer on any highway and have it pilot you down the road. On the road that it did work on, it was nowhere close to Tesla Autopilot or BMW Highway Assistant smooth. It seemed to ping pong in the lane a bit and also braking applications were abrupt. Not sure if you experience this, but the infotainment screen in the R1S I drove was so laggy. Certain inputs took 3-4 seconds to respond. I was also disappointed the headlights aren’t curve following, the interior generally feels pretty cheaply crafted, and the actual room inside wasn’t huge. My fiance is over 6’ tall and had a hard time getting in without hitting his head on the roof even with the seats in the lowest position. It seems to be from the high floor height due to the battery pack and ground clearance, while the actual floor to roof height isn’t nearly as big as I had expected. The most annoying thing though had to be the air suspension constantly making noise the entire time I drove. I’ve had 4 cars with air suspension, including our BMW i7 we currently have. Even on my old Land Rovers the only sound I would occasionally hear was the compressor, but it was always super faint and just for a short time. By comparison, the R1S constantly had audible compressor noise, and it never stopped clicking and chuffing the entire drive. It drove me and my fiance insane. I can only imagine how loud and annoying it would be if I had been in the backseat or third row. I sure hope they fix a lot of these issues ASAP. For a vehicle so expensive these issues are unacceptable. I get it is a new automaker and all, but they’ve pulled people from all over the auto industry who should have built a better car.
I love these side by side range tests. I know they must be very tedious to do but really appreciate them...! And thanks for turning around at the same time (not as with the Audi e-trons) when the lower capacity truck had to and staying side by side all the way until the lesser one died. That way we really have apples to apples. Thanks again!
@@boostav for me it is. I have a pre price hike order so it is a $500 difference and I would rather have the quad for offroading vs open diff dual. I was willing to go dual if the max pack was worth it
Recall update with Tesla autopilot stinks. I engaged it today on my Model Y after disconnecting it for a few minutes. I got a warning and even though I wiggled the wheel, it felt I wasn’t paying attention and then shut off. I then got a 4 more disconnect until suspension prompt. My ICE cars don’t tell me this.
making an educated guess here that the chemistry upgrade is higher energy density, but its also higher resistance (leading to slower charge rates) and uses more exotic/expensive materials. Its always a compromise which is why Rivian picked the right cells for the large pack. So why did Rivian even make the max pack? Marketing. Bring people in the door and sell them on the other trim options. Rivian knew you would get this result and your helping guide customers to the other trim levels.
I really wish i was in the position to afford a Rivian because since i was 16 i wanted to make videos like these with Teslas in Ak and since there’s only like 10 Rivian in AK i wanna do it with an R1T
How many actual miles were driven with a fully charged large pack at 71 mph? I'm trying to figure out if I can drive 234 miles at 75-80 MPH without stopping to charge.
This is interesting because I've seen the quad motor large pack get above 340 miles at 70 mph in a range test that the bearded tesla did. So is it possible that a quad motor is really the way to go?
"Max pack should have been a no-charge upgrade". Thanks to the 2023 inventory price cuts that's exactly what is (finally) being offered right now, at least temporarily.
I noticed that the max pack was abel to pull 141kwh. The total capacity of the large battery is 141kwh., as shown on the label on the side of the pack. They may have used a different battery cell, but I don’t think that’s the biggest difference. I think they just changed the software to maximize the pack. Less to no buffer. Could be the beginning of battery gate. I think your test has killed any chance of them selling this form of the max pack.
I agree that side by side is the golden rule. The cybertruck test was extremely misleading 10degrees lower tem than rivian. 3500ft higher elevation. Makes a huge difference. Cybetruck is 20% more efficient
