RN Conte di Cavour - Guide 222 

Q&A: As far as I can tell, the Soviet Navy gained ships that were put to active service from at least the Japanese, German, Italian, Romanian and Finnish navies after the Second World War. Were any of these ships of any practical use?

Q&A: was the Roma a good ship? And if she entered service earlier in the war what would have been the consequences for the Royal Navy?

Q: did the Italians build the most stylish battleships?

Some - although not all - books describe the rebuild of the Conte de Cavours and Andrea Dorias as a complete waste of time and money. I think this is a position based entirely upon hindsight and is extremely unfair - the rebuilds gave the Italians four ships roughly equivalent to the Strasbourg and Dunkerque and even facing the Royal Navy they were useful to the Regia Marina, which in their unrebuilt form they most certainly would not have been. What is your opinion? I do accept that in practice the Dorias were less useful than the Cavours, but would argue that has much more to do with the fortunes of war than the underlying concept of rebuilding the ships.

What is the rational for a stern torpedo tube in a dreadnought? If fleeing in a stern chase, you would assume the chasing ship would be bow-on, not exactly the most likely hit.

Mr.Europawide!

"german mine"

Life is so strange

Max agrees.

@@TheAngelobarker thanks!

Of course they are, its the Italians, they would never make anything not beautiful if they can help it, its just what they do

Yep,absolutely beautiful ships and designs too

@@weldonwin what about their tanks?

@@leroiarouf1142 The Italian Tankettes were kinda sleek and sporty looking I think. I know they were hot garbage as actual fighting vehicles, but at least they looked nice

Couldn’t agree more, the ww2 era Italian cruisers and the Roma are in my opinion the most beautiful looking ships of the age

Totally agree

Warspike look better

The Brits and Dutch build practical, utilitarian ships. Vertical walls, circular upright funnels etc. Italians sculpt their ships like they are carving them out of a block of stone. One is engineering, the other is artistry.

@@francoistombe very poetic but not true. This ship was refitted too create a hull shape that was more suitable for higher speeds. The Italian ships are closer to that of German ones (especially if you look at turret design and hull shape) and we'd never say the German ships were built in an artistic way. I think it all comes from perspective, you persecieve the Italian ones to be less focused on the actual engineering.

I always go with Hood or Tiger as the best looking battleships/battlecruisers.

Same in Australia. Italians captured in North Africa went to POW camps in Australia where they had no hope of escape. (Well they could escape but there was nowhere to go.) So they drank wine, sang opera, enjoyed the warmth and were sequested out to local farms for labour. In all a rather good easy life compared to combat. These were joined later by Japanese prisoners, who considered themselves shamed and humiliated by their capture. The contrast between the life-loving Italians and miserable Japanese was stark. The Italians thought they had a good thing and we're baffled by the depressiveness of the Japanese, who in turn were equally baffled by the contentment of the Italians. Ultimately the Japanese conceded that the Italians had the right idea.

That's, honestly adorable. :D

Yeah but he had easy access to gelato so it all balances out.

Comically, he only had to bop up to Germany to find peanut butter, due to the large American military presence there

@@francoistombe Lots of italian POWs were kept in the camp at Cowra during the war. In contrast to the japanese, the italians were guarded very lightly and the officers apparently weren't guarded at all. They could wander into town, visit the pubs and drink coffee in the cafes. They just had to give an undertaking not to try to escape and to close the fly-screen door behind them when they returned to camp. A marked contrast to the way the japanese had to be handled.

I love the Cesare beautiful and powerful

@@Peterax788 she definitely is

@@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoat I'm happy to say that Giulio Cesare is my favourite ship at her tier

@@Peterax788 oh yeah, she's really strong

@@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoat Back when I still regularly played World of Warships (and back when the PVE operations were fun), I really was wanting a Tier 6 Novorossiysk so I could bring Giulio Cesare into operations.

I wonder how many Turds floated off her deck when she turned turtle?

A side question to your side note about that particular purge: I'd be interested in seeing an assessment of how repeated purges in Russia/USSR in the 20th century impeded their naval development. Regardless of what such an assessment might say, I think the 20th century was a great time _not_ to be Russian.

Stricken from the list 24 Feb 1956, apparently - they didn't even have the wit to wait 20 days (though at least it was a leap year!)

@@77thTrombone TIK (a worthy poster on WW2 matters for those dissatisfied with official narratives) has covered the effects of the infamous Stalin purges very well. His conclusion is that such purges were not all that unusual (cf Lincoln and FDR, who sacked a lot of generals for being too old or set in their ways), even at the time*. Quite a large number of those purged reappeared later on, modernized, so to speak, ready to Red Army Rumble again. My guess is that later purges were similar in reasoning: get rid of old guys who can't do the work anymore. *Churchill was infamous for "reassigning" generals in whom he had lost confidence.

@@WildBillCox13 First - purges were not limited to military personnel. Second - strictly speaking, sacking a general isn't the same as shoving said general in front of a firing squad and sending his friends and\or family to a forced labor camp. For example, Korolev and Glushko, fathers of the Soviet space and ICBM programs, were sent to a GULAG just because they worked under purged superior (shot). Living conditions were less than preferable, so It's all thanks to their natural health and pure luck that they made it out alive. Considering that fruits of their (post-camp) work are used to this very day, we can only imagine how world would've looked like if those two were unlucky enough to catch, let's say, a flu while in camp. Purges affected all aspects of soviet life and technological development in more ways than one, and I imagine that the navy is not an exception.

Seems like the German mine took Italys side change personally ;)

@@colinlook5237 on the other hand it was flying under a Soviet flag at the time

"german mine"

@@firestorm165 I think the German mine does not mind destroying a soviet assets either

Mines do not care when or where their new friends appear, they give hugs just the same! Oh so friendly, those mines!

It's like when your badass veteran grandpa getting super soldier augmentations

Of course being Italian they rebuilt it to be sexy and fast, I am surprised they didn't paint them red!

@@ONECOUNT they had red and white racing stripes....

I believe Mussolini tried to turn the Italians into the Romans. While most Italian military operations in the Second World War were less than stellar these dreadnoughts seem to be an example of what the Italians could do if they were not hobbled by incompetence and corruption.

Some people are just homebodies. Can't be helped.

There were some strange resonances, you bet. The Italian Zara class, too, suffered an oddly uniform fate . . . 3 of 4 sunk in a single action against Cunningham's battleships. I am also reminded of the Clemsons and their common demise: the Honda Point Disaster.

@@WildBillCox13 Zara, Pola, Fiume sunk in Matapan. Zara, Pola, Fiume assign to Jugoslavia. Cuisers Trento, Gorizia, Bolzano and Trieste loss after Matapan. Trento, Gorizia, Bolzano and Trieste was italian cities

@@angelofontana9656 Interesting observation... I'm not a believer, but that smells of divine intervention

@@Taz_XE076 the city of Zara(Zadar), Pola and Fiume (Rijeka) was lost to Jugoslavia in 1947

World of warships players: "First time?"

Needs fuel to be used. Italy had no oil fields. Just whatever imports they stockpiled before the war. And Romanian oil fields were not sufficient to cover even the German needs.

Beautiful ships the Italians made, the problem with was there was a bunch of Italians sailing them.

Italians and Frenchs navies have sadly the best looking and underrated ships

​​@@joejan246and you are wrong. italian navy performed in a quite competent way. in 1940 british could fight seeing puglia form far, in 1942 thry could not leave northern african seas. of course they will never admit that globally talking italian navy won the convoya war. but historians are starting to write about that impartially.

When I was deployed to the Western Pacific in the late 1990's there was an incident involving a Japanese fishing boat. The boat was sunk by a bottom-moored mine that had broken loose from its mooring and become a free-floating mine. The forensic examination of the fragments revealed that the weapon had been deployed in the 1904-05 Russo-Japanese War.

There are naval mines from both world wars still lurking as far as I know. For some, the detonators, or explosive has probably deteriorated to becoming inert, though, depending on the explosive used, they can deteriorate to a state where a bump can cause them to detonate. Pretty much every ship now has a degaussing coil for this very reason. Neutralising the magnetic field of the vessel to avoid the risk of setting off some long forgotten magnetic mine buried in the mud.

Well, the latest report of damage caused by a ww2 sea mine I've seen was of 2005 - Dutch fishermen caught one in their nets and it exploded when they pulled it on the deck. As of mines that are just lurking - well, "Open Spirit" mine-sweeping exercises take place in the Baltics every year to this day. Typically, a couple of dozens ww1 and ww2 mines get destroyed every exercise. On the Black Sea (i live in Crimea) - ww2 mines are found and destroyed quite regularly (5-6 reports per year), and once or twice per year ww2 mines are washed on the beaches or are found within couple hundred meters. Basically, only such "close calls" cause any interest of the general public

The people who did were declared reactionary capitalist dogs and died in Siberian camps.

Well, one out four badly wrong isn't too bad :D

Calm Down. Nobody complains when most ppl butcher the "Prinz Eugen" or 90% of the Imperial Japanese Navy. Itll be OK.

@@tfs203 Wait what? Which internet have you been using where nobody complains about some pronounciations? :D

Cut scene from "Life of Brian". Drach learns to conjugate. *Centurion:* What's this then? 'Romanes Eunt Domus'? 'People called Romanes they go the house'? *Drach:* It says 'Romans go home.' *Centurion:* No it doesn't. What's Latin for 'Roman'? Come on!

@@tfs203 Ah yes... the good old Prince Eugene.

The carrier in question is named just Cavour for anybody wanting to look that up.

Imagine if the British did this to their WW1 battleships and battle cruisers, new Atlantic bows, suppression of the midships turrets, new propulsion machinery and boilers, and plenty of dp guns in the 4.5 to 5 inch range. I dont know if the British guns can be bored out like the Italians. But if they could 12.6, 14 and 15 inch would be the result.

They took a more conventional approach with the Andrea Dorias, taking the original bow off, before building the new one.

Same here. ^^ I make sure to open a youtube page at this hour every saturday.

Odd. I miss the emails RU-vid used to send me but the notifications for everything I'm subscribed do turn up (actually pop up) on my PC without fail (plus they are also there if you click on the bell at the top of a RU-vid the page in my browser). When I'm using my tablets the situation is less satisfactory but a notification icon still appears at the top of the screen.

Un click the bell then click it again, if that doesn't work unsubscribe then resubscribe

Well, it was one of two relatively modern BB's USSR ever had. The other had been the Lend & Lease Royal Sovereign. Not counting the modernized Gangut-class pieces of scrap metal.

Still not worse than all the "Riverplaces" like Jenniseisk etc or the ultimate naming the Russians ever invented "Vladivostok"... ruler of the east. GAH!

Shhhh Da comrade totally german mine..... totally not Decima MAS.

Probably as much satisfied when they bought the entire production line for the nice old Fiat 124 some decades later...And they loved then and now the VAZ 2101...it was better than anything they had at the time.

Novorossiysk is anything but a safe haven for ships (sailing or modern alike). Because of its geography, it is vulnerable to Cat 4-5 hurricane-force winds (locally known by their German name Nord-Ost - yes, that's a Russian word now, too - the Northeasterlies) which have been known to decimate ships in the harbour there, including a large-ish Russian squadron of battleships and frigates in the 18th century, and sinking a few relatively modern ships, mostly merchantmen, more recently. Novorossiysk (the city) lies fairly close to the foothills of the Caucasus, where colder heavier air accumulates. When triggered by the right/wrong kind of conditions, this air mass gets pushed towards Novorossiysk, displacing warmer air and accelerating on the way down, which generates dangerous wind speeds, a sharp temperature drop of 20-some degrees C, and dangerous waves near the coast there. Ships are strongly advised to leave the port when this happens, while local residents would be wise to stay indoors for a few days, until this whole thing literally blows over. This weather phenomenon is very localised - the weather can stay relatively calm just a dozen miles up or down the coast. I'm assuming this is why Russia has been so hell-bent on acquiring (and re-acquiring) the Crimea for the past 300-plus years - it just has the best harbours (mostly Sevastopol).

Oh, Cavour is definitely a pretty fun machine, ngl. I do prefer the Andrea Doria, personally, but yeah.

@@thomaszinser8714 the new italian ships aren't that bad at all

@@thomaszinser8714 Oh definitely gonna go for Andrea Doria next

Did you get her in AL? She's a cutie!

@@orzorzelski1142 yes

They are like Americans just with more style, and better food.

Yeah, but will they all work?

@@blueboats7530 In the 21st century, no one does naval guns like the Italians.

I love the metric system #thanksNapoleon

The Conte Di Cavour fought the Warspite and survived, the Giulio Cesare fought her at least 2 times and survived the entire war, not really a boss music moment

Italian Human Tropedoes enters (boss music)

Errmm, its an Italian ship. Quality control of the shells left something to be desired so accuracy wasn't a strong feature, hence the need to put lots of ordnance downrange on the principle of "throw enough mud at the wall......" 😁

@@Kevin-mx1vi Yes, it is the Italian equivalent of a Nock Volley Gun. Can't deny. But on paper that's still a US worthy number of guns. I can't think of a ship mounting a greater number.

@@Kevin-mx1vi Joke aside, they want bigger guns but Italy still lack ability to produce big naval guns without British assistance and economy was meh, so 13 guns 305mm guns make up for it

@@Kevin-mx1vi Wrong era. The practice of loose shell tolerances started in the 1930s and ended in 1937, which is well before the production of the 305/46 shells and charges, so when the ships had the 13-gun arrangement (WWI up to 1933) this wasn't really an issue.

@@kmech3rd There is the (in)famous Gin Palace (Agincourt) with her 7x2 12". But she is the only one exceeding the Italians

Yeah, but at least the Giulio Cesare survived, plus the Conte Di Cavour at least was refloated, she was scrapped only because of the armistice in 1943, the original plan was to upgrade her with better AA and radar and come back to service in 1944

They decided to refit the ship because they didn't feel building a new ship under the naval teatries and hoped that the refits would cost less than a new whole class, which by many was not the case

That thought has crossed my mind too. If the money, labor and material used on the four rebuilds had been applied to the Littorios instead, they may have completed all four. By US/UK standards, the time needed to complete the first two Littorios was exceptionally long.

@@giovannifavullo7065 Actually rebuilt two Conte di Cavour were cost less than they thought, but rebuilt pair of Andrea Doria-clsas was a big big mistakes, it suck out their budgets that could have finish the rest Littorio-class.

@@NguyenThanh-gs5zv Yhea I was talking of the refits as a whole

The reconstruction was considerably good as cost overhaul them was not huge as Italian navy thought, but for their mistakes, that they shouldn't spend more on rebuilt Andrea Doria-class, its cost further plus the budgets could have use to complete the rest of Littorio-class without restraint or delays.

@@NguyenThanh-gs5zv Why even bother with the Littorios instead of building more land-based torpedo bomber squadrons?

Very true. Newspaper accounts at the time had plenty to say about Senator Hale's influence in getting these ships built, and the criticism of them in the press was blistering.

I pictured guns on rails being pushed around by sailors and laughed when he said that XD Not sure if that's how it worked, but funny either way.

Navweaps.com describes these guns as being transferrable, with the 14 (Cavour) or 19 (Duillio) guns provided with 30 or 39 center pivot mounts the guns could be installed on. These are located on the turret roofs, forecastle, and upper works. The guns weigh over a ton, so it would presumably require either quite a few men or some heavy equipment to move them from one mount to another.

P.S. I'd like to know how they proposed to get her out.

@@77thTrombone This should help provide some context to the operation; www.researchgate.net/publication/342053739_The_Footprints_of_the_Wreckage_of_the_Italian_Royal_Navy_Battleship_Leonardo_Da_Vinci_on_the_Mar_Piccolo_Sea-Bottom_Taranto_Southern_Italy

𝒯ℯ𝒶, 𝓔𝓪𝓻𝓵 𝓖𝓻𝓮𝔂, 𝒽ℴ𝓉. *Edit:* (Tea, Earl Grey, hot.) Welp, that came out looking tiny on my end. Just a silly Star Trek reference to Capt. Jean-Luc Picard. *Edit #2:* Come to think of it; it would've been more fitting in a USS _Enterprise_ video. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The Italian leadership was perfectly capable. Even Iachino the dud while a cruiser admiral that was promoted above his pay grade advocated for the gufo radar prewar. The hero Campioni was waiting for the littorio classes and refused to engage unless he could be sure of a advantage as any losses by italy could not be replaced while the british could. The lack of aggression people think of was really only for capital units smaller units like destroyer and torpedo boat (frigate) captains were very agressive often charging enemy ships of Superior strength. Bergamini that died with roma was the one who designed much if the impressive fcs systems of the regia marina he also complained about shell quality pre war. The only dud in italian naval leadership was the minister of the navy tbh and if u think of it from his pov pre war you have the best traditional rangefinder and fcs technology probably in the world you would be hesitant to adopt a new untested technology he said as much to his prewar letter to iachino when iachino inquired about gufo.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-c5TTdyFjyE0.html drac talks about the spica class there