R2D2 applied for a job as a tube driver but he couldn't see out of the window. Rumour has it he now makes a living hoovering the carriages along with his friend Henry.
When i worked for London Underground in the 90s i was told that right around opening the Vic, initially they only had drivers in case something went wrong as they thought they'd go fully automatic in due course, so all the driver really did was open the doors at each station. But at one station, the doors failed to close again, so the driver got out to investigate. Only, the doors then shut! And because the doors were all now closed, the train took off down the track - without the driver! So he had to run out to the street, flag down a cab, and try and work out where the train would have got to so he could catch it and get back on. Sure enough he found it, full of angry passengers, the train had still stopped at each station but the doors didn't open, so they were trapped until he rescued it 😅
Frank Sprague,who invented the Multiple Unit concept,also worked on elevators,and invented the multi- car shaft principle! So a lot of that unmanned elevator technology got carried over to the subway usage! A bit complicated,but its some heavy duty engineering that people take for granted! Thank you,Jago,as usual,your side excursions,wind up being fascinating! Thank you 😇 😊!!
@@InventorZahran Actually there was an advertisement from Baltimore,that said that out loud! See Baltimore Streetcar Museum for details! Thank you 😇 😊!
In the US there has been an automated train service at West Virginia University since the 70’s. It only has 3-4 stops. It was quite a folly when it opened as it used these new fangled computer things.
It's on a completely isolated track. We used to have a driverless Maglev in Birmingham. It was removed as it was unreliable. Fun to ride for 3 quarters of a mile.
@@hairyairey A train is defined as ''a connected line of railroad cars with or without a locomotive'' according to many dictionaries and Wikipedia. The Morganstown PRT does not meet this as one vehicle is a single rigid unit It would be better classified as an automated people mover
I'm not even really a train person but have followed you for the history and knowledge of London and surrounds, better than some dedicate history buffs
When I read the title "Robot drives train" I imagined Robbie from Fireball XL5 in the driver's seat going "On our way 'ome, On our way 'ome" in his metalic voice!! 😄 I'm just glad I didn't use the Victoria line until it got to Brixton and the system was well tested!!!!
I was lucky enough to get a cab ride on the Woodford-Hainault line during those early trials and pushed the 2 buttons to start the train. It all worked perfectly with no overruns or any other problems. I may be a bit of a Luddite, however, as I still like the thought of people driving trains, rather than automation.
@@kiwitrainguyHopefully, if you get stuck in a lift, there is an emergency call button and intercom. On trains without staff on board, hundreds of people can be stuck in a coach where the air con has failed, no windows can be opened and no toilets (I know lifts don't have toilets) and no means of communication. This has occurred recently when the overhead power lines failed on the railway from Paddington, London. Plus- I like driving trains 😀
I remember being on the southbound platform at Kings Cross some time in the early 2000s. A Victoria line train came belting into the station... and carried on belting through! Cue screaming of brakes and the train came to a halt with just the last carriage in the station. The front one must have been pretty much in Euston... I guess the train operator had a bit of a shock!
The Stockholm underground had a test train for ATO in the 60s I believe. And since 2000 the green line have been capable of ATO. The drivers can choose to drive or monitor.
Thank you, most interesting and informative. It always used to please me when waiting for a train into the city at Woodford to see the little ATO Hainault shuttle trundling in with it’s 1960 driving cars sandwiching the ancient trailers in between . . .
That John Connor quip has me thinking the train will announce in a German accent: "Ride with me if you want to commute." I'm waiting for my home system (WMATA in DC) to return to full ATO; they stopped in 2009 (!) due to a catastrophic collision and have only slowly been re-introducing it. But when it works, it works! (The Victoria Line is a beast and I loved getting to ride it in past trips.)
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Barcelona because in 1959 they opened a new line with automatic train operation based on photocells and lights between the rails and it was developed in house! But it lasted until the 70s because they merged with another line. But anyways the last 25 years aprox the modern ATP-ATO came again.
Brixton platforms were redecorated around 2007, grey tiles (except on the far wall) were replaced by cream and green ones, and illuminated glass signs were removed (only Pimlico and Hatton Cross still have them, plus a swjtched off one at Moorgate ). The green and orange "motifs" depicting a "ton of bricks" have been retained though. Brixton also now has the largest Underground "roundel" on the system, above the entrance, surpassing Arsenal's by some margin.
Thank you Jago for your “Driverless” offering, I am minded of the notifications that I have experienced and thinking of trains abruptly stopping because of a failure to update to the latest operating system. In 1984, I and numerous work colleagues visited London UndergrounD on a works outing which included “signalling.” At Acton Town the old relay system was in use, then a trip to the new Heathrow Terminal 4, where a desktop PC (of similar type in use where I worked) was in control. I remember the number of times that I was called to deal with PCs (desktop computers) where I worked that had failed. But, the walls were lined with the old relays - very reassuring. Here is a very belated massive thank you to London Transport Underground for a very special day - thank you LT, I’ll never forget your hospitality to me and my work colleagues on that day. Also a special Remembrance Day thought to the LT staff of Elmers End (ED) bus garage that were killed by a direct hit by a V1 doodlebug on the garage.
In Vancouver, we have the opposite problem where we hate it when metro trains have drivers. Every time an LRT is planned, it eventually becomes a skytrain (Vancouver's driverless metro system) because the money saved by not having to pay drivers makes the business case impossible to ignore. The less we have to spend on train drivers, the more we can spend on bus drivers, which can spread frequent transit coverage out to further areas in the region.
@@creaturexxii So many systems are hobbled because of grade crossings that could be easily rectified to allow for greater speeds and frequencies. Seattle's Link Light Rail comes to mind where the majority of the system has superb grade separation, and yet the few grade crossings it does have ensure that they can never do anything better than a 6 minute frequency. Skytrain can do 45 seconds. Mixed grade light rail should be for streetcar systems, French style tramways, or German style stadt-bahns that serve smaller cities. Light rail should never be used to cover 50km like it does in Seattle and LA.
The use of buses (cheap low cost road compared to rail) seem to a Canadian method to cop out building for the future, cheap solutions for today. In Ottawa construction of the LRT has been going on for years, it took 20 years of discussion before the city agreed to build. Then another 8 years before a spade went in the ground. What is running is flawed, the wheels Lee falling off. Be thankful the sky train is established and runs!
@@johnmurray8428 We don't build nearly enough rail quickly enough, but at least in Vancouver, buses are used to help develop corridors overtime before being converted into rapid transit. They're both an excuse as well as an opportunity to build ridership and coverage. Broadway is the ultimate example of this where we had one skytrain stations and a bus that came every 10 minutes (99 B-line), then we had two skytrain stations and the B-line came every 8 minutes, and now we're finally extending the millennium line to arbutus, and the B-Line is always crowded regardless of a 5 minute frequency. Now Translink is committed to building the UBC, Langley, and North Shore extension, along with a Gondola to SFU and nearly 200km of BRT within the next 10-15 years - hopefully they get the financing for it, because the entire network is currently overcrowded.
I recall as a lad aged about 12 chatting to a driver on the Hainault loop when ATO was being trialled. He was very enthusiastic about it, and invited me into the cab for a ride around the loop to see how it worked. I remember thinking I was seeing the future...
"Leaves and trains are natural enemies! Just like leaves and trams! Like leaves and monorails! Like leaves and other leaves! DAMNED LEAVES! YOU RUINED WALTHAM FOREST!" "You leaves sure are a contencious bunch" "THATS IT! YOU'VE JUST MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE!"
Though, the DLR is GoA3 : driverless but not unattended, an agent must be on board for the doors, etc. Paris metro lines M14, M1 & M14, plus all 4 of the upcoming Grand Paris Express lines are fully driverless and unattended (GoA4), while almost all other historical lines have drivers with automated train operations (GoA2) since 1967 on, like RER central sections (akin to Elizabeth line central section operations). Lines M1 & M4 are more than a century old and were recently converted. Other significant GoA4 / UTO (Unattended Train Operation) metro lines include the new Sydney Metro North West line, Barcelona L9/L10, Lausanne M2, Sao Paulo Metro lines 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 15, Vancouver Skytrain, Montreal REM, Santiago Metro lines 3 and 6, Tokyo's Yurikamome line (among others), Copenhagen Metro / City Ringen, Doha Metro, several Singapore MRT and all LRT lines, Istanbul Metro lines M5 & M8, Torino Metro M1, Milano Metro lines 4 & 5, several other French cities' entire networks or lines like Lille, Rennes, Lyon, Toulouse and soon Marseille, Nuremberg U-Bahn lines U2 & U3, Roma Metro line C, and several others. Plus of course dozens of airport people mover systems. One of the main advantages of full unattended train operations is the very high frequency allowed by such automation : down to 60 seconds on VAL systems like in Lille Rennes or Toulouse, and 80 seconds (for now) on Paris metro. It also offers an immediate response capacity, allowing for many trains to be injected on the line at the last minute by a simple command. Without any managerial headaches about schedules, shifts, holidays etc. When Beyoncé's concert in Paris la Défense Arena took longer than planned, line M1 dispatchers didn't have to worry about driver shifts or anything else. They were in communication with the arena which told them that about 40+ thousand people were going to head their way in 10 minutes. Dispatchers only had to activate the super peak scenario and all concert goers enjoyed a super frequent noria of trains. Fully automated lines with unattended operations are fantastic to handle crowds and rapidly, if not instantly, increase the capacity, or even the operating hours. You can let the system work all night long on event nights with very minimal staffing. You no longer need to argue with thousands of drivers about who's gonna work on NYE, for example. Fully automated lines with unattended operations should be the default standard for all new lines anywhere. And the upgrade goal for all major renovations. That's the case in France anyway, no new driver operated metro lines, only automated / unattended ones and conversion of previously driver operated ones to fully unattended ones. As a public transit user, I find it to be nearly a night and day difference. The reliability of these lines is much higher than any manned line.
Rubber tyre systems do help a lot with automatic operation. Most of the complexity of more modern systems comes from dealing with the much longer stopping distances of steel wheel systems. VAL's control system is cobbled together from earlier ATO systems, the on board systems are mostly analog. The trains don't know where they are or where they're going, they don't really know how fast they're going.
The DLR isn't driverless ... just the driver doesn't usually drive the train ... ...and they are so closely monitored from a control room, they effectively have two drivers, one is on the train but not driving, one is not even on the train ... A truly driverless train is unlikely - too many unanticipated things can go wrong that need human input ...
The biggest problem really is that retrofitting anything is a lot more difficult than doing it from the outset. So, to do it on the Victoria Line made sense, but retrofitting it to a line that was built when practical electricity hadn't been invented yet, that's a bit more difficult. This is why the DLR could be made driverless from the start: it was a brand new system. And it doesn't go very fast, so it's easier to halt at the right place. If you look at Paris, they made the brand new Line 14 driverless. But, because technology hadn't advanced enough in the late 1980s/early 1990s, these trains run on rubber tyres, because they reckoned that they couldn't line up the trains properly with the platform doors. Now, with the Grand Paris Express project, the trains will have proper steel wheels. Therefore, the London Underground will eventually become driverless. If nothing else, technology progresses all the time, and problems that were insurmountable before become almost trivial. But, because this system was started in the 1860s, and because there are some other problems to solve first, it will probably be one of the last systems to become driverless.
Living in Vancouver these days, our light rail - the Skytrain - is completely driverless. Except when there's snow or some other reason that the automated systems struggle. Then humans descend to drivers' chairs at the front of the carriages. It's truly the best of both worlds, and I do wish more cities would follow suit.
Yep! Prague is the latest Underground railway to automate whilst the two best metros in the world have always been automatic i.e. the VAL metro in Lille and the Skytrain metro in Vancouver.
The first automatic train braking was in Victorian times. A radio signal was transmitted through the running rails, which has recently been readopted as an upgrade to DLR's SELTRAC.
Honest... I was watching the pretty tube scenes and letting myself be gently lulled by Jago's dulcet tones without really paying attention, and then I heard that unforgettable phrase, "leaves on the tracks" and I was jolted to attention and instantly transported from 21st Century Australia back to late the 20th Century English South East, where these words were normally preceded by something along the lines of, "British Rail regret to announce the delay/cancellation of... due to...". I could feel the cold, wind, and damp frustration like it was yesterday.
and the original Victoria line automatic system (once it worked !) would make the train brake at EXACTLY the same spot when entering a station . Hence the stress on the rails was EXACTLY at the same point . So more rail failures ! Human drivers, well they're a bit more random on the braking point they chose, so even out the rail wear a bit more. I do think they solved this problem eventually on the automated system, and well newer digital computer controlled systems, I'm guessing they must sort of do something like this. On the subject of the DLR , well I'd argue the "Train Captains" are still really drivers. They're about as much of a driver as the other lines where the driver only has to take over in emergencies. There in lies the issue with fully automated trains. Even automated trains still really need a railway employee on a train for emergencies. De-training passengers on a train stuck in a tunnel is the major issue . So they still need a human, that is this side of the full Arnold , hopefully "Non Terminating" type, of robots becoming reality saying "I vont you to get off ze train !". Thinking about that, like dogs often get the name "rover" and cats "tiddles" , when we have house hold robots, will most of them get called "Arnold" ? 😀 Yes, I worked on the Signal and Lighting Electrical division of LUL from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s . First as an apprentice electrician, then building electrician - not signalling ! and eventually ended up just pushing a pen around on bits of paper ! and you reminded me of Dell . He was talked about in "rarified tones" by the Signalling lot !
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Not really. Guards were progressively removed from the system from the mid 80s onwards with drivers then taking on door operation duties ( but not platform observance on departure). So in effect the operators job is having the driving function removed apart from any booked manual moves ( that used to be a feature of the Victoria line but may not now be the case) and manual driving in event of a failure of the auto driving control systems.
still common in places like Japan and Taiwan, well for department stores, first time i experienced it , it was a bit strange. they ask you what floor, they press the button and away you go, usually a very attractive young women doing it.
That's very interesting. The other day I read an article about the multiple automation attempts on the metro in Hamburg, Germany. In the 60s the idea was also to cut labour costs and convert the metro to driverless but the system was not approved by the authorities. Then, in the 80s they tried again but now the passengers weren't ready for it. At that time the guards and station personnell were reduced and finally omitted and the passenger numbers were at an all time low. So it could become quite deserted and eary on the trains. Driverless "ghost trains" didn't really help to make people feel more comfortable. Now, in the 2020s the next attempt is taken to automate existing line and a fully driverless line is under construction. Let's see how it goes ^^
When I was a teenager a Victoria line driver let me press both start buttons together to start the train after he closed the doors and closed the cab window. Good old days.
It was always fascinating watching the drivers on the old Central Line trains when they drove the train from the carriage, only separated from the passengers by a small bar. All they seemed to do was press a few buttons.
The Expo Express (basically a standard gauge railway with subway carriages) at the 1967 World's Fair in Montreal was entirely automated. However the city's transit agency was tapped to provide bodies tonoccupy the drivers' seats in each rake to quell visitors' fears...
I once read an article from 1982 when the Helsinki metro opened it said that metro would be automatic by 1985. They were also planning do in it around 2014 and lates plans were from 2019...
They have that same automatic control system installed in the new Metro Tunnel in Melbourne Australia so the trains will only operate automatically with drivers in the Metro Tunnel section of the line and another reason for it is so the trains always perfectly align themselves with the platform screen doors in the new Metro Tunnel underground stations.
As I remember it, the Victoria Line ATO tended to brake as late and as hard as was practical. But on particularly damp or cold days, the driver would have to blip the emergency brake to prevent overruns.
actually, there are THREE levels of automation. Automatic operation (GoA2 - Grade of Automation ,London Underground), Driverless operation (Goa3, DLR), and Unattended operation (GoA4, Luton DART or Paris metro line 1). GoA4 is my favorite, and with new CCTV advancements a conductor doesn't need to be on board the train to keep an eye on things...
Westinghouse Signalling would also use that automation system on the first two Singapore Metro lines that opened in the late 1980s which also was seemingly the first system to feature platform screen doors.
Quite funny this comes out the day before the Jubilee District, Circle, H and C and Metropolitan line are all closed for a signal upgrade on Saturday 11th November. Robots still need signals. 😃
Whilst slightly disappointed to find out that Johnny 5, C3P0, and Data will not be driving tube trains soon, nevertheless this was another very interesting video!
Data: It appears Captain that these locomotives do not commonly have their drivers at the control, I do not think automation will completely take over, as too many variables are involved. Picard: Even Starfleet does not use them, there is a chance that the computer may malfunction. (Riker steps over seat to examine main controls.)
Another proof of the inherent difficulties of implementing technical improvements or radical evolutions to the London underground system due to its absolute can of worms history.leading to a complicated jungle of network with numerous branching lines, duplicated (or more.. cf. The n-Acton story) stations, shared tracks, and mismatched systems (train or tube loading gauge, 3 rail, 4 rail or overhead feed, curve radius, and so on. Most other metro/underground/subways networks never had those impossible hurdles to deal with and the results are visible: Paris network: automated trains introduced in 71. All lines automated five years later. Driverless trains: introduced on line 14 in 1998. Lines 1 and 4 driverless now. Line 11 in works. And new lines - 14 to 18 (first parts opening first quarter of 24). Driverless trains can be used on automatic mode if need be and wide interoperability between most of the rolling stock (just two categories: metal wheels or tyre ones (lines 1, 4, 6, 11, 14). Same with most European networks with historically rarely more than 2 competing private companies and generally just one (municipal, almost never privately owned).
I might be mistaken, but I believe that the BART line in the San Francisco Bay area was designed by Westinghouse and has been fully automated from the beginning. I live 3,000 miles east of it, so I could be mistaken.
@@brigidsingleton1596The US and British companies were completely separate. The UK company was The Westinghouse Brake and Signal Company, a vast operation which made a huge range of railway equipment.
@@brigidsingleton1596 They made everything from toasters, light bulbs, washing machines, to railroad equipment. They were second in size only to GE. And NO, you're not an idiot. Just not informed.
For the record, the Glasgow Underground is currently testing Stadler-built driverless trains for introduction to passenger service during 2024. Mind you the Glasgow network is only marginally more complex than the Waterloo & City.
I grew up thinking I could be an inventor, and found out the hard way that I am unfit for the task. I found the list of faults of the first automated tube train test to be very familiar, and almost laughed when I heard that Mr. Dell had a habit of failing to specify important things. I'm sure he, just like me, found it hard to think things all the way through. Given this problem, it's better not to work in engineering innovation.
Working in IT on large systems, you quickly learn that you can’t do it alone. Coming up with all possible scenarios and then tackling them takes a team of people dedicated and specialized in whatever area requires it. The “one man inventor” is really a myth for the most part. Credit is usually given to the biggest head (or ego) in the room, but there are legions of folks behind them, each doing their part.
