A lot of people have asked me about this, but I'm not sure people are aware of just how long they've been trying to extend this thing... Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/jago... Patreon: / jagohazzard
"It costs several thousand pounds to install a public toilet block, and half that to remove it. So we've paid nearly ten thousand pounds on having no toilet. I could have given you no toilet for free!" Stuart Ashen, Sharticles (Paraphrased)
As HS2 has now been quietly scrapped or "put on hold" as the politicians say, I wonder whether that's another "might have been" project like so many others.
@@mypointofview1111 Yah, I think he mentioned that in his video about loading gauges. The UK has generally small loading gauges, since they were the first country to build railroad bridges and tunnels and stations on a large scale -- before experience told everyone else that a wider and (especially) taller loading gauge might be better for mainline rail. (I'll edit this and link it if I can find it.)
@@robertwilloughby8050 Quite right. Lower deck passengers apparently could also smell the feet of upper deck ones! There were fewer doors which slowed exit and entry (though modern sliding door stock has even fewer), and complaints that you could be cornered in the upper compartments by thugs. A bright idea that didn't quite work - like quite a few of Bulleid's.
It will never be done! My parents back in the 1980s were considering buying a house in Hayes (Kent) the estate agent told them the Bakerloo will be there in 5 years 😂
If i had a £ for every time the bakerloo line extenison has been proposed, cancelled or delayed, i'd have £26. Which isn't a lot in retrospect, but it's weird that it's happened 26 TIMES?!?!?
In fact, geography of London cries to connect Lewisham to Hayes line to Marylebone. Such crossrail line could go via Bond Street (Elizabeth line), Green park, Victoria (Crossrail 2), Waterloo (with exits to Embankment and Westminster), Elephant and Castle (Thameslink) and via Camberwell to Lewisham
@@someoneno-one7672 I think have the thameslink be a fast 30tph service from mitcham junction to millhill via Kingscross , with stops at camberwell and remove city thameslink Bekenham/ Hayes could just be a bakerloo extension from lewisham, and extend newcross overground to slade green via bexleyheath branch I really think south east needs an alternative route to london bridge, elizabeth line is fine, but the overground is slow and so is DLR from lewisham/ woolwich Sladegreen to grays would be so good, and if C2C has a highspeed to kingscross stopping at barking , or heck if they take over the overground past stratford but with less stops (i think stratford international should have more trainlines imo)
@@ibrahimhossain2776 I believe Half Life 3 is supposedly a game that's been in development for decades, heard about and confirmed many times, but nothing past that
@@ikec-pw5sb Valve realised that there was more money selling other peoples work in a convenient package than spend a fortune making their own games and so Steam was born and the game teams got sent on their way
@@ikec-pw5sb it also funnier that the game developers also keep releasing game that are RELATED to Half Life but NOT Half Life 3 Exactly like this Bakerloo Extension
Never thought of it that way, but it totally fits. At this point though, a Bakerloo Line extenstion is more likely than Half Life 3 (or Portal 3 for that matter).
They really need to extend something to Thamesmead. It is poor that the whole area doesn’t have any rail transport. Such a large area and no transport is shocking.
I'd guess a quick cheap fix there would be to build a pier and bung in a ferry service to Barking Riverside.. Yes a better long term fix is needed but you could have a ferry service done and dusted in a year or so for a few million, Which in Govt spending terms is chicken feed.
@@britishguy54dx surely im not the only one who thinks the hammersmith line is now useless, past paddington atleast. Also circle line should go from farringdon directly to blackfriars imo. Removing H&C would allow for more metropolitian trains , maybe extend the metropolitian to dartford via liverpool street and new cross
Dreary Helsinki! Well if you love London so much come visit here. Or if you want something more exciting and warmer go to Rome or Istanbul. (but definitely don't go to Moscow, I hear it's drearier than 'sinki)
"...didn't happen more cost-effectively." Gold. Strange that none of these plans were carried out, since most of them were on a direct straight line from Elephant & Castle...
There must’ve been many hours of research to get details of 26 proposals listed and summarised for us. You must surely have enough data to submit a doctoral thesis on the history of the London railway network. 👍👍 from 🇦🇺.
Jago should send a link to his video to the proposers of the current extension to encourage them a little so that one day we don't hear about a 27th serious study for yet another extension.
Ive lived in Lewisham then Peckham and used to hang around in Camberwell The last 35 years has been soooo bait lol. I really really thought it was going to happen when sainsburys (new x) had a "grassroots org" in their entrance handing out protect the supermarket leaflets. It was all quite exciting! The old toys r us/ lidl site was another place that was ear makerked for a station. If you look at the number of new developments being thrown up along the old kent road right now. It would seem it is/was definitely in the big plan. I would love to see it happen before i die!
This lol! I live close to the old Toys r Us site I thought finally that was going to be site of a potential bakerloo line extension alas I was wrong Hopefully one day! Till then Queens Road Peckham will have to do
As someone raised in Camberwell & Lewisham who’s lived all down the old Kent road and currently in traffic on it as I type, this extension makes almost too much sense given the amount of residential construction that is going on and it’s painful that they could build the whole Elizabeth line before even trying this 4 stop expansion
It might be worth reminding people when you were half way through that the every 2min train turnaround was because the Elephant was a single terminal point of a line that bifurcated at Baker Street, with one branch running on the added Met Lines to Stanmore, and the other taking the more original Bakerloo Extensions then onward and up on the LNWR to Watford. The split to the Jubilee was effectively "an extension"- of sorts, where the Stanmore service was relived to Charing Cross via the Bond Street new tunnels , thus allowing a bit of extra min or two of breathing space at Elephant.
Hmmm don't seem to remember Bromley South trains going to London Bridge back in the day, Holborn Viaduct or Victoria, Bromley North was your man for London Bridge and Bromley council were all up for closing that branch for the juicy property building lands it sat upon. Did you know David Bowie grew up alongside Sundridge Park station? Was a hero to us Sundridge Park folks :)
It's been some time since I've been to Camberwell Green but I remember there being an information board which seemed excited by the fact they had a Ginkgo tree, I wonder if the person in Southwark council who commissioned it would have been so excited had they known about a half of the roadside trees in Sutton are Maidenhair trees, which is English for Ginkgo tree
I watched this with mild amusement. The extension to Lewisham via Burgess Park, OKR1, OKR2 and New Cross should happen. Perhaps it will. The extension from there to Hayes, along the existing route of what is quite possibly London's crappiest branch line, should also happen, and it wouldn't cost a great deal to make it happen. It won't. The reason; Bromley Council, and all who sail in her. The thought of TFL roundels popping up at New Beckenham, Clock House, Elmers End, Eden Park, West Wickham and Hayes would send them in paroxysms, as it would end their pretence of being in Kent, which they haven't been since 1965. That, and the thought of "undesirables" from "The Sharm" being able to come down the line on a reliable 12 trains an hour instead on the occasional rattler which you need a crystal ball to predict... Nah. Not happening. The pitchfork wielders won't let it. They'll use the excuse that they "can't lose their direct service to The City". Except that they lost it anyway in January when trains stopped going to Cannon Street. (Joking aside, somebody apparently in the know told me that there wouldn't be enough stock for at least 30 years to do it anyway.)
It seems it is easier to come up with reasons not to do it than have the vision to make it happen.I'm sure the economic boost would pay for any extension.
Always amazed at the amount of research, and the time that must take, that underscores the narrative in each of your videos. Beautifully shot, researched and told - as always. Thank you
Let's dream a little and imagine several projects which would have served the most evocated stations in the different schemes : - Bakerloo line to Hayes via Lewisham - Victoria line to Crystal Palace via Dulwich and Sydenham Hill - W&C line to Bromley South via Camberwell, Peckham Rye, Honor Oak, Catford, Grove Park and the bit between Grove Park and Bromley North I'm immediately organizing a bake sale to get funds for these projects.
I think you meant Bromley North, not Bromley South. The Bromley South line goes to Victoria. Bromley North line goes to Grove Park on the Charing Cross line
I don’t think any work will happen on the Bakerloo Line anytime soon. Firstly, as it stands with TFLs finances, the trains won’t be replaced till at least 2035, and the plans to extend the Bakerloo Line down Old Kent Road into Lewisham has been placed on serious hold. I really wish it does go ahead ASAP as it’d be very nice to see Bakerloo Line trans serving areas such as Beckenham Junction. It’ll save all commuters having to use very unreliable Southern services into London. Well by the time that happens, I’ll probably be 6 foot under lol
If I recall correctly, there were also plans to re-extend the Bakerloo Line north of Harrow and Wealdstone up to Watford Junction. However, I think these are now on "indefinite hiatus" as well. I feel that the bakerloo line is quite forgotten about and underdeveloped compared to other lines - especially with the age of the trains and lack of extensions
I don't know the area that well, but isn't it just a question of not stopping at Harrow & Wealdstone? The Watford DC lines continue to Watford Junction, and, as far as I know, the same tracks are used both by the Bakerloo and the Overground from Euston.
@@Tevildo That's right. The Bakerloo ran right through to Watford Junction for about 50 years. Although resignalling sometimes affects the feasibility for mixed operation. This has been a big factor in the Croxley Link which on paper looks a very obvious way of linking the Metropolitan line through to Watford and maybe on to St Albans Abbey.
@@Tevildo In the 1970s the Tube map used to show the Bakerloo reaching to Watford Junction. Some time later, the section between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction had its' appearance changed and was commented something like ""peak times only, full service on British Rail". Later still, that section was removed completely from the map.
@@iankemp1131 isn't tube trains use NR signaling systems from Queen's Park to H&W? I mean 72 stock got a NR Class name, and I've seen some similar to NR looking equipment in the cab in other videos, so it might make sense.
@@Psevdonim123 That's absolutely correct. Obviously when the Bakerloo ran right through to Watford Junction the signalling was compatible, but those were the days before TPWS etc. So I don't know if it can be used beyond H&W nowadays. The Croxley Link would use a separate line out of Watford Junction. You'd think that if it can be solved in one situation it could be for the other as well, but apparently it's a difficulty that would increase the cost by tens or hundreds of millions of pounds according to the report. That would feed on to the Met rather then the Bakerloo so the stock is different. Mind you, apparently simple changes of any sort seem to cost ten times as much when Network Rail are responsible, which is why it's so hard even to introduce a passenger service along an existing freight line. The days in the 1980s when you could just introduce an experimental dmu service from Oxford to Bicester (which worked) and Derby to Sinfin (which didn't) seem to be long gone.
Hi Jago - I always think that TFL missed an easy opportunity to extend the East London Line beyond New Cross to Blackheath via Lewisham on lines shared with South East Trains. There was an old, unused, terminating platform at Blackheath which would have done nicely.
One obstacle to tunnelling south of the Thames in the early 20th Century was the alluvial loose soil in that area; made tunnelling more expensive. Hence trams dominated in South London to places like New Cross, Old Kent Road, Dulwich, Camberwell Green, etc. Elephant and Castle was a major tram junction.
Ahhh........ I remember those double decker trains. Thanks for slipping that in a tale about the Bakerloo. I wonder how many other relatively short rail schemes there are being mused. The sort that connect apparently unrelated lines in an attempt to spread the load and offer alternative routes.
And so the Bakerloo Line extension planners spent all those years unable to decide where and if it was going to be built. Did they then continue their careers with High Speed 2?
I'm pretty certain the 2010s proposal mentioned Camberwell again and even included it in the earlier consultations. Not to mention that a station at Bricklayers Arms was on the cards for a long while before eventually being dropped.
I remember taking part in a survey, and via Camberwell or via OKR were the options. I forgot the 3rd one, but it was a minor variation of the OKR route.
I’m still very doubtful that the Bakerloo Line will ever get extended beyond it’s current terminus points because if there have been several proposals to do so which all failed miserably before, then I wouldn’t hold my breath for it going to Lewisham even though it’s the only way to make the line better
If it’s going to happen before 2060 it needs to start happening soon! Replacement of the 72TS must surely happen relatively soon (being the oldest rolling stock in regular passenger use in the UK, so that’s the time to increase the fleet size!
@@LondonEmergency999 In which case, it may well be potentially worth their while investigating the possibility of another thorough refurbishment of the stock; along with replacing the traction equipment with something more modern and less high maintenence.
There's an episode of the Sweeney, with Brian Blessed playing a well spoken "geezer" you get to see a quite interesting chase scene around Peckham Rye with a dirty 4SUB pulling out the platform as Carter chases the naughty young lad down the trackside.
Eat your heart out French connection. At this juncture I feel it necessary to point out that the French connection is a movie and not a proposed extension of the Bakerloo line !!
It is so late, it will be full from day 1 - any of the stations at Lewisham or catford or Camberwell would fill the trains to the brim. We need another circle line , but in South London, named after Charles II if that will help get the Tories to back it. Stations at London Bridge, Waterloo, Canada Water and most the places the various bakerloo routes were due to visit. No need for the line to be diverted to the isle of dogs as that place will soon be totally empty. lol.
Since the various megabucks sprees I've seen conducted by government since 2008, I've stopped believing the "no money" excuse. "No political will" is the correct translation there.
At 9.00 "express service to London Bridge" should be "express service to Victoria" if you are talking about Bromley South. The Bromley to London Bridge would only come into things if it utilised the Grove Park to Bromley North branch. Going onward from Bromley North to Bromley South would probably be impractical due to the difference in elevation between the two stations and the wanderings of the River Ravensbourne causing difficulties with a southern terminus.
The one thing I was hoping for that didn't appear in this video was a gigantic omnibus map of what would be if every one of those schemes - literally all of them - _had_ been made, as if we lived in Bizzaro World.
For decades now, the received wisdom I heard was that the ground south-east of E&C was such that tunnelling through that ground was extremely dodgy and very likely to cause issues to the buildings above.
@@dambrooks7578 Honestly, I'm skeptical we event want Tube line extensions in South London. Tube stations are to South London housing affordability as the Spanish Inquisition was to Native American populations - we'd quite rather avoid being "civilised", thank you!
It is true (gravelly rather than clay), but it just increases the cost, it's not a complete showstopper. They did get the Northern and Victoria lines built in this general area.
Taking the Bakerloo down to Tulse Hill seems wild given that exact route (at least now) is served by Thameslink. Always assumed a Victoria line extension that way would have been more likely
I think this was in the 1970s. Not sure if it was for the Bakerloo line or the then intended Fleet (now Jubilee) line. However I think an interesting point is that there was a stand-off between British Rail and London Transport. BR welcomed the idea in principle, because it would provide relief for the then heavily overcrowded route between Charing Cross / Cannon St. and Lewisham. However they wanted it to go to Hayes, as this was then the least used route and would therefore minimise their revenue loss. LT, following the same logic, wanted to take the Bexleyheath line as this was the busiest route and would therefore maximise their income. An absurd dispute really when both BR and LT were in public ownership so the overall profits / losses would finish up in the same place.
The only Bakerloo Line extension you didn't mention was the one to Camberwick Green, with stations at Trumpton and Chigley. Of course, it could also have served that other fictional place - Thamesmead.
my 27th attempt is to send it above ground to Camberwell, than back under to Brixton and through run it with the Victoria Line, thus making one long tube line with a big loop in it.
I liked this one (despite it being sad) because it reminded me that European countries still have problems getting rail done too. At least other lines are being built in the meantime until this one happens though. Great video as usual Jago! :]
I would want the victoria to go to stratford and brixton extending 4 stations leyton midland road leyton maryland and stratford that way it will be more busier with 20 stations I would want the jubillee to go to gallions reach extending it to plaistow beckton and gallions reach I would want bakerloo to go to west croydon extending it to camberwell green denmark hill east dulwich herne hill tulse hill west norwood snd west croydon extending it to 32 stations I would want northern to have a extenstion to watford junction extends from edgware to stanmore bushey watford high street and watford junction making it 26 stations from battersea power station I would want circle to be back to 1940s circle not a weird circle Hammersmith and city should be withdrawn
I supported the proposal to extend the Bakerloo Line to Lewisham via Burgess Park & the Old Kent Rd. However, finding a Southern terminus beyond there is more of a problem because city workers in Hayes, West Wickham, Elmers End & Beckenham will not want to lose their direct train line to London Bridge & Bromley Council is more interested in the proposal to extend the Docklands Light Railway to Bromley North station. However, TFL still needs to extend the line beyond Lewisham to pick up more fare paying customers to make it financially viable. I think the extension to Hayes is the most likely option but TFL is focusing on Crossrail 2 plans at the moment.
The Bakerloo line did run as far as Watford Junction and I often used it… sets were stabled I think at the sheds on the West Watford Croxley Green spur. Clever that they used the same current rails as the EMUs…..
After the failure of the Lewisham extension, the crayonista in me wondered if a cheaper option might be to connect it to the main line south of Elephant and Castle, where it could head down through Herne Hill and Tulse Hill before taking over the Wimbledon loop. This would provide relief for the Victoria Line (since Loughborough Junction is near Brixton), the Northern Line and some relief for Waterloo mainline services. You could also open a station in Walworth to fill a massive tube/train desert. All of these were identified as rationale for Crossrail 2 which is no-longer happening either... But I guess we will see what the next 20 years brings, your video might need updating once we hit 30 proposals!
I would send an overground extension West Croydon -Sutton- Wimbledon -Tooting-Balham-Clapham Junction-Willesden Junc for a real outer circle service. The Bakerloo Could Split onto the Hayes Line and off that divert to Beckenham Junction
Bexley is always forgotten, when the proposals to Lewisham were brought about there was the exploration of the Bakerloo line taking over the Bexleyheath line. In fairness, Bexley is now served by the Elizabeth Line (even if only by a whisker), and there is a safeguarded extension route through the north of the borough. That said, Bexleyheath and Sidcup are two large economic centres of the borough and seem to be ignored.
One mustn't underestimate the unrealised cost savings that an unrealised express bus service has over an unrealised tube line. Not only is it less expensive to unrealistically run, it's also unrealistically more flexible, and you won't have to realise an unrealised replacement bus service in case your unrealised tube service suffers an interruption.
Does the proliferation of overground in this neck of the woods render an extension of the Bakerloo somewhat moot? Interesting that the suburbs seem to get all the attention, but you never hear of the Urbs!! 😊
Could "It's been Bakerloo'd" as a shorthand for "It's been cancelled more cost effectively" enter the lexicon I wonder? It's just an idle thought, it'll probably be bakerlood.
In my opinion they should extend the bakerloo line down to Lewisham and then let it take over the line to Bromley North - because currently it’s a shuttle service between Bromley N and Grove Park, which means that residents would have a through service all the way to central london
Interestingly, the North East end of the Bakerloo line, ended up as part of the Jubilee Line, with the original termination of the line at Charing Cross, ended up as an emergency set of platforms and sidings. Maybe the plan for an extension on the Bakerloo line, may never happen, due to the DLR, the bus services and an enormous number of main lines in South London. Perhaps what is really needed is a Crossrail Two in South London, in another decade.
I suspect any move to Lewisham from the Old Kent would have likely have utilised the abandoned Bricklayer's Arms branch which was still fairly intact in the 80's, there was a chord that ran from BA to New Cross Gate as well as the ELL which could have been widened for more lines to allow a second tube line to run into New Cross then onwards to Lewisham. We do forget too St Johns, I remember it when it had 4 working platforms and shifting BR traffic over to the right hand tracks would not have been a problem save the Hastings and Dover expresses would have snarled up with the extra passenger traffic. I seem to remember the Lewisham overunderground thingy would have seen the tube line terminate in a station under the current rail doings as it would have been next to impossible to have over the top terminating trains at Lewisham itself.
I still think that the Bakerloo Line will extend to Hayes and Bromley via Lewisham. With new Bakerloo Line tube trains to be ordered whoever wins the contract to manufacture new tube stocks for the Bakerloo Line and to replace the existing 1972 Stock. And with 2 new tube stations on the Bakerloo Line to be built on Old Kent Road.
"Yes, come in, come in; thank you for coming today!" "Thank you for having me!" "So what do you have -- I'm a busy man but I'm game to hear your proposal." "We want to build a new underground rai---" "---GAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!"
Jago, for a time there were double decker trains on the Brighton Line used between 1949 and 1971. Even though I was a occasional passenger on this line pre 1971 (later a commuter to the city on it), I never came across one of these 4DD EMU's.
The Greenwich line runs past the back garden of my old family home. As children, we used to listen out for the 'train with the funny windows' because it had a distinctive sound and dash down the garden to see it. I have had the joy of travelling on the GoTrain in Toronto and it was wonderful.
