Roboute Guilliman is Actually Dead - A 40k Conspiracy 

What about the primarch aura?

these theories are fantastic, BUT I would really like if you linked to or showed off on screen where you got the sources from, which books is this lore from?

@@OldenDemon vpn sponsorships hmm

honestly what outs Guilliman out as an impostor is his meeting with the high lords of Terra, they are at Terra, you know, the massive psychic realm of the Emperor, with the Custodes lurking around making sure no one commits treason, there should be secret codes, secret hand signals, dark age relics, special forms and even mannerisms to make sure no one can mimic his way to the highest seat of goverment, what outs Guilliman as an impostor is that the Custodes dont inmediatly crush the High Lords entire body, souls, descendants and anyone even slightly related to them when their plot to overthrow Guilliman started, thats because it wasnt treason, it wasnt treason because Guilliman's rule wouldnt be legitimate, and the only way his rule wouldnt be legitimate is if he wasnt actually Guilliman

NordVPN was honestly one of the worst decisions I"ve ever made. They provide far less security then they advertise and have extremely scummy billing policies. Canceling was down right impossible and had to fight them multiple times to stop billing me. Had to report them as fraud to my bank and get a new card. Do you want very little added security with the customer experience worse then a cable company then give them your credit card information, it is the ideal product for you.

"These spreadsheets are far too small!" 😮

👍And that's a fact!

I would of gone with the Lion looking at the imposter and saying, "That's not my brother, kill him"

@@MrTaurenMoo Maybe lion does know. Think about this. What if the entire alpha legion's "turn" was actually big E's direct orders. Perhaps he shared it with someone like Lion, who was Horus only true counter-part and one of the best strategist. And the two of them sent the alpha legion to chaos, to run a shadow campaign of subtle manipulation, sabartoge. Because the alpha legion does tend to dick over chaos at every and any opportunity. So perhaps Alpharius finally wanted to return after seeing things were NOT going well. But knew he couldn't just appear, as the people who could potentially explain, were all gone. So he started to make preperations to return. I think guiliman might've even legitimately died to Fulgrim. And that became the most obvious way in. So he modified the statis field himself, hit the snooze button and took a nap until the most desperate hours. Than and only than (And convient very long into the future where few would recognize him) awoke, to begin the long task of rebuilding the imperium. Starting with trying to throw away the codex astartes that was against his father's wishes. Maybe when he and lion met...Lion realized that Alpharius had returned to the fold, understanding he couldn't just throw off the cloak. And that "guiliman" as a figure head was far too important. A touching moment for alpharius where someone he knew and knew his true efforts and struggles for the long war, was re-united with him. I dunno. The theory could work. 100% the writters aren't doing this, but it's a very interesting idea. That this was all set into motion by BIG E, and some of the loyalist primarchs. Perhaps Dorn, guliman and other's were brought up to speed after the heresy's conclusion. In a private meeting. Cause if big E did that, Dorn would likely be involved and likely have orders to eventually bring the other's to speed. As to avoid any "accidents" like actually killing the loyalist sleeper primarchs. Maybe alpharius was under cover so deep her was psycho-indoctrinated to believe he was chaos until the x time, or x condition met. And it was met around the time guiliman died. You could absolutely make this work. And I'm sure we could make a fan-made series about it that's really neat and thought provoking. Something warhammer hasn't been in a while. Also. Might be my personal bias here since I greatly dislike Girlyman Rowboat, and love the Alpha legion. But it'd be nice if the horus heresy saw some actually brilliant plays by big E. Where he was genuinely setting the board, including sending his special sleepers to chaos. Because don't you find it strange that the legion DESIGNED for infiltration, spying, this sort of thing just openly joins chaos? I think it was always a play by big E that has actually continued to f*ck chaos over 10,000 years later. Big E's last "W" move.

@@MrTaurenMoo Unless the Lion had fallen too ...

Alpharius is already confirmed to be condemned to be tortured in The Warp's inferno for resorting to his own hubris at betraying Emperor of Mankind The good and living one is Omegon, but his chaos-uncorrupted loyalist elements are already a minority within the renegade of traitors of Alpha Legion (which said legion is already thrown into scrutiny and obscurity by 40th Millennium, since even current Alpha Legion members doesn't take claim of "I am Alpharius" seriously)

@@ohamatchhams That last point about the 'I am Alpharius' thing also stems from the considerable "generational" divide in the post-Heresy Alpha Legion warbands. A considerable amount of the AL's numbers in present day 40k are comprised of Post-Heresy recruits who, due to the splintered nature of the Legion, the sheer disparity in their origins and all manner of reasons for turning renegade in the first place were never likely to assimilated into the AL's culture. This was also certainly not helped by how the Heresy-era Legionnaires don't really seem to want to interact with their younger cousins all that much or how the root of that culture, the twin Primarchs, are complete absentee's.

"Its.... just omegon?" "Always was kid"

holy shit

Oh no.

Punished 'Venom' Omegon! "I'm Robute, and you are too..." 👊👹

@@aquavitae3824 Are you feeling numb?

Okay but... why? Why not just claim you didn't find him, or that he died honorably fighting for what he believed in. He ruined his entire legion the moment he was introduced. The War Hounds weren't the best, but they worked. Then Angron happened to them.

Engagement. It's a trap! Oh no I fell into it too!

20:22 this is really really not the same but nice try. Calgar took his friends identity who died when they were going through trials to become a space marine as an honorific, and as you point out it is known since there is a tomb for Marneus Calgar. That’s not the same as one person being replaced by another from a different planet as adults on public display.

Definitely the strongest part of the case though is that no one could speak up even if they noticed for fear of being executed lol, that’s pretty true I think you got me there

It's not that convincing 😋

That's a theory I can get behind.

How do I sign up for your news letter?

Now that’s a thought 🤔

If I remember (no source!) but also the Alpha legion the most purest geneseed! all working organs, with the possibility of a flaw that of making plans overly complicated.

@@4_am I don't know if they were strictly the *most* pure, but I do vaguely remember reading in a couple of different things that they were definitely up there alongside the likes of pre Heresy Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines. Like, top 5 purest (author dependent of course)

Games workshop would never be that based.

"I hereby reorganize this Imperium into the First Galactic Empire!!! For a safe and secure society!!!" - Chancellor Guillotine

Or the talent to make it work.

I'm all for daring plot twists, but I can't help but worry for the tabletop implications if Guilliman were to be proven a fraud. Is his model going to be sent to Legends? Everyone will hate that.

Except Alpharius and Omegon are both brothers of the Lion and for that matter Guiliman... it would make for an awesome plot twist though, Primaris are traitors now, and Firstborn Legends become the new poster boys for the Imperium!

​@@donnylurch4207Calgar is still a tabletop unit, and the real Calgar died a long time ago.

Where is this quote from?

I think this is the most plausible answer. Guillemon sees himself as the Imperiums last chance so instead of working with, and trusting, the other primarchs he works to preserve his territory. Which also makes sense why he’d give out Primaris marines, so he isn’t accused of breaking the very codex he made. Makes since too why he’d be cool with it taking so long because he needed time to pass to be able to do all that without being held accountable

But he did get mean in 30k at lugar

Alpha Legion Triplets (with Bobby G being the 3rd brother) is now my head canon. BRB gonna cause a few aneurysms down the FLGS 🤣

Damn it's really just me that likes the new books 😢

A third sibling... a chameleon... or maybe... a Gammaleon?

​@@valx7586 Genefather was great. Most books are fine. My personal issue is the stalling of milling off of popular, great stories. Dan Abnett's sequel to Pariah is still being postponed, ADB Abaddon series seems to have dropped off the edge of the earth... Horus heresy and siege of terra were good overall, but full of flipflop plotlines that went nowhere, looking at you Erda, Abyss, Pythos...

I was thinking about this. In the heresy black books you see a third symbol on the heads which is the sigma symbol

That is what an alpha leggionaire would say if gulliman was actually dead

Ok, that may be But where's omegon

Are you not Alpharius yourself?

Did that happen in the book?

when did he say that?

I think he was talkin about angron

It didn’t happen but it would be cool if it did.

Only, it did not happen... Also Alpharius is also Lion's Brother so the line would make no sense...

The doors of Grimdark were opened. Not the literal doors to the building, most of which were closed, but evil doors, dark doors, doors to the beyond. Doors that were hard to shut because they were abstract and didn't have handles. They were more like portals, really. From this day on, I'd have to fight these forces of darkness . . . and deal with the burden of day-to-day admin.

that makes a lot more sense than GW's actual explanation

Unfortunately, Chairon in Space Marine 2 (which GW has declared cannon for during the 4th Tyranic War) is a Primaris who was a child on Calth when the Word Bearers attacked, survived, and was picked up by Cawl as one of the original Primaris, where he spent 10,000 years on ice. So, for the project to only be 1,000 years old, there needs to be some reason to have kept the various candidate kids on ice for 9,000 years before that.

@@piedpiper1172 That's ok. I'll be retconning that comment of his out of existence along with the Repulsor and the words 'Space Marine'.

@@piedpiper1172 implanted memories

Thunder Warriors are an entirely different tech tree

I mean Johnson was notoriously fooled by Alpharius before, it can be done. Yeah i know Dorn instantly saw throw Alpharius's stuff, but that was some Matt Ward caliber favoritism in that novel.

​@@aguspuig6615Well Dorn was a blank right? I mean alpharius/omegon shenanigans work just because of some psyker habilities that they control but Dorn is not affected by psykers so it makes sense in a way, no?

This assumes that the Lion is indeed genuine himself.

I remember a somewhat similar theory that Omegron and Guilliman were who clashed there, and Guilliman "Killed" Omegron and secretly recruited him (since he and Alpharius had differing opinions on the Heresy) and Omegron became the Chapter Master of the Omega Marines. A chapter who sort of appeared out of nowhere, their Chapter Master has a background that doesn't fit, is larger than the marines around him, and the Omega symbol is prevalent and even in the name. Not sure which theory I prefer, but as an Alpha Legion main, I hope it's one of them!

Big shoes 😄

Big G can't take his armor off ya doof. Whose to say it's not some big mech suit like the gray knight baby stroller and he's just inside it. All they need to see is his head.

He can now, but it took awhile before he could.

That’s not actually true, they were regular sized primarchs but they just had the ability to shrink in peoples perception.

​@@kazacoonable yes he can, It was painful at first but now he takes his armor off when he's not in battle

Tupac is still alive underground.

Everyone knows Tupac is still alive in Serbia

You must be fun at partys

@@mr.inconsistent1631 It's unfortunate, but to some extent he isn't wrong. I think certain people getting mad about certain recent retcons like Femstodes are fucking braindead, but Primaris Space Marines and bringing back Primarchs is genuinely a dreadful move on GW's part, that has sadly worked wonders and is selling stuff like crazy.

@@Hy93Ri0n not trying to devalue somones opinion but I think a comment like that under a video thats just trying to have some fun seems kinda uncalled for and a bit cynical

Cynicism is entirely called for in this case. People have built things they love. The mere idea that they would become worthless ingame in the next couple years is worth being savage about.

​​​@@therealmaxilist The lore was never reliable to begin with. A lot of people (and myself) tend to fall for that trap until the first time a retcon happens to them. It's make or break, they'll be frustrated at first. But then they will either become like the second edition chad who looks at retcons and goes like "meh" before going back to playing tabletop or they join the mindlessly angry mob. And rules wise? Unless you play tournaments that is not a problem.

The specialisation of primaris is more similar to the structure of space marine legions A striking scorpion doesn’t change to being a warp spider if his starch says he should A primaris marine can presumably be deployed with whatever gear he’s assigned I hate primaris and how they copy heresy legions, but your theory uses a false equivalency.

he wasn't dead, he was in a perpetual state of dying from the wound fulgrim gave him.... until the plague war books but thats another story

Was referring mainly to the degree of specialization for each squad type’s role as opposed to the more mixed equipment and roles of squads in battle, not the culture surrounding dedication to a particular method of warfare between conflicts.

Yep, wasn’t dead. Thus the quotes on “resurrection”.

It expains why Primaris masks look like Eldar masks

As far as i know only some do. But yeah, it is for sure a thing they can have.

That's true, however Space Marines can live indefinitely, but they often die in battle so they don't live for too long, so in the end the last Space Marines who saw Guilliman face would be dead by when he return, except for maybe the Dreadnoughts who are know for being really ancient.

That's not even a theory, that's a fact

And you have the lemmings, discussing about theories... Omg

Hate to break it to ya but if you go back to the very beginning of 40k lore it's nothing but plot holes and retcons. Doesn't mean it's bad but that's the reality of 40k.

@@adepressedcatwithabadnicot246 early 40k is suspended because it's purely a setting. They seem determined to have a linear moving story now and it deserves criticism.

@@Splozy nah man things change primarchs use to not exist, ultramarines danced, and space marines were knuckle draggers. And it will change again and again and again. It's how the setting and hobby has lasted this long.

@@adepressedcatwithabadnicot246 I read old books and while they changed stuff, it was more organic, building upon previous work, first it was the warmaster, then he was named Horus, then the primarchs where named, then their stories developed, etc. and some stuff was dropped out of the canon I don't mind change, if is dobe subtlety Primarchs are weird in that they jammed in a time travel story that comes out of nowhere and that the whole point was to establish that the new toys are bigger and have new armor. I know they took the chance to milk books and stuff out of it, but storywise it isn't even good. I am quite new to the setting and hearing the firstborn in the great work felt wrong man, "we are old, we suck, we must go and leave the figth to the primaris which are bigger and have shiny toys and are really cool, buy them now" c'mon man! To this day I still think, BRUH, why?

An example of GW writing quality: the new Primaris tanks are hover tech, but are stated instead of lifting the machine, they push down on the ground and crush anything they move over. I believe it is also stated that they can move over water. What happens when you push down on water? It moves out of the way, and you go down into it. Therefore Primaris hover tanks sink when moving over water.

Dante might not've visited the shrine but the Ultramarines are in and out of there all the time. They might only live around 4 or 5 centuries but you'd think one of their photographic memories would've spotted the tiny changes with that many chances

if I remember correctly Dante said he saw the body of Guilliman in the stasis chamber in the Devastation of Baal book or the Dante book

You're correct, except they did that at the beginning of 8th. It was a completely different game before that with different lore and rules and Primaris were part of it

They already did

​@@idkwmytuniyeah they kind of learned their lesson with fantasy end times and changed everything without actually killing the game. But I still think that they are aiming for the hard reboot, just not so sudden. The coming back of the primarchs leads me to believe that GW is preparing us for a great cataclysmic event like ressurection of the emperor who will destroy the whole galaxy and rebuild it.

@@DzikiWaclaw They've accomplished the reboot, that's why there are so many Primarchs in the first place. 40k is already a completely different setting now

Lion was never able to recognize Alpharius when he hid.

but where is that quote from?

not really. "That was not my brother [guilliman]" my brother meaning guilliman specifically. gman is his brother, and if its not gman, then its not his brother

Beat me to it.

Genuinely. It was a really cool approach. Then people come in and wanted it to be like other franchises. I like other stuff beyond 40k, but I don’t think 40k should be imposed on them and they shouldn’t be imposed on 40k. I personally blame TTS for popularising the lame idea that the timeline must move forward.

Yeah, I kind of agree. I've not been following the new lore closely, but I'm concerned that with the old lore a lot of people didn't seem to realize that lots of what we knew about the universe was basically filtered through imperial propaganda and the perceptions of people brought up on that propaganda. That was the whole thing behind that the Emperor might actually be just dead, and so forth. I think some of the lore around the game Inquisitor was some of the best. Because the game master needed to know the back stories, it really let the writers fill things out for the readers a bit more explicitly and really show the moving gears for everything. I really liked the stuff in one Inquisitor related game book, where the Imperium stole a verdant wonderland, a literal utopian world, even the movement of the moons in the sky seem to have been arranged to create beauty to the viewer. The Imperium then becomes convinced over generations, basically by being fed its own propaganda, that this world was so beautiful and perfect as a result of the Imperium's policies. Over several hundred more years, the actual effects of imperial policies slowly wither and kill the planet, through things like climate change, as well as causing massive logistical disasters and all this combines to eventually kill half the population of the planet and drive many of the remainder into rebellion. Then some space marines show up, and indiscriminately slaughter half the of that remaining population which, of course, solve none of the underlying systemic problems. So people continue to starve and die, but by a century later they're being told to worship these space marines as their saviors. While all these disasters were going on, the rich and powerful on the planet had managed to completely accidentally stumble upon how to make forcefields that they proceeded to use to bubble their parts of the planet off from all these problems, like the acid rain and anarchic rebellions, so they simply don't have to deal with them. The levels of interlocking parody of real world political ideas were delicious, but so rarely was the lore able to lay such things out explicitly, it was normally taken for granted the reader would fill in the gaps on their own with a critical eye towards what they were told. However, a lot of people seemed to accept stuff they were told by in universe documents at face value.

That's probably why they've once again stalled the timeline. It's implied that the setting never truly left M41, hell it may not have ever been M41 in the first place because of how screwed the Imperium's timekeeping is. I think they do want to keep advancing the storyline, but much more slowly and not have a big shakeup like the transition from 7th to 8th edition. At least not for a while. Frankly as long as we don't get a 40k End Times I don't mind too much and I like the slow advancement approach if there has to be any advancement at all.

@@Calvin_Coolage it’s more that they realised that they can’t really do anything interesting with any of their ‘advancements’. The new lore is still a mess after seven years and GW has no incentive to improve it because people just gobble it up anyway. Before they make an ‘advancement’, they have to strategically calculate how to make something like the Lion’s return the wettest of all farts to have graced the galaxy. Once that happens they can comfortably sell their model of him, knowing that nobody else who owns a major army will be upset. It’s been over half a decade since Luther went missing and it’ll probably be a decade before there’s some actual follow-up (spoiler alert, it won’t affect much). It’s the most mediocre storytelling I’ve ever seen. This is what happens when your only reason to have anything happen is so you can announce new products. Dante only got rocked by Angron so that they could release primaris Dante. Angron appears every two weeks now as a needless justification for his presence on the tabletop. Oops, looks like it’s time for 10th edition and now the Tyranids are more of a galaxy-ending threat than ever, here’s their fancy new line of nerd Tyranids. Wait, there’s an active Genestealer cult on terra? Don’t worry about it. It goes nowhere. Abaddon is going to destroy the Suez Canal and cut the imperio darko from imperianus lightus? Just kidding. Cadia fell? Well don’t get your hopes up, because people still own Canadian armies since that’s essentially the only one we’ve sold in plastic for the past two decades. Everything’s fine except that Creed was replaced by a parody of himself.

Did you watch the video?

A buried copy of a Vox recording between a Alpha marine mocking a respected high Inquisitor-Lord gets unearthed sending the Ordo Heredicus into a frenzy trying to bury it again.... the few scant seconds of it is simply; "laughter. Guilliman isn't Guilliman and you don't even know. You know... we've always been here, we never left but you never got why. Hmm, I expect by days end my pardon will be from sources that even you can't question and I'll simply walk out of here. Simply put you are my puppet little Inquisitor and there is nothing you can do about it."

That's been my interpretation of the whole 'betrayer, thief' bit. Like, Gulliman my dude, did you really think your dad didn't know?

Well... That escalated quickly.

Now that I think about it, this does explain why I can smell your feet while sitting in your attic. And if you don't have an attic then I don't know whose house I'm in.

Ah the Gnosticism position. And old and bold one indeed!

If you want X was secretly replaced theories I favour "the emperor was secretly replaced"

i thought they where spilt up so space marine fanboys could have more space marine stuff to obsess over without having to think of anything outside of space marines.

Well most of 40k after 2017 isn’t canon so that’s probably why.

Everything ever written or commissioned by GW for 40k is canon, especially the contradicting parts

@@Yurt_enthusiast7 you are not Terry Pratchet.

Thing that occurs to me as the only counter argument I can think of is this: The Emperor is described as looking like Gulliman "As a prisoner does a rasp." Referring to a file, a tool to escape imprisonment. Would the Emperor care if it was, say, Omegon standing there? A tool is a tool. But that's not a solid counter at all, so I'm pretty sure GW intends him to be the real deal.

Maybe he is a method actor?

@@OldenDemon of course, I should have never doubted Alpharius (or Omegon). Hydra Dominatus.

If you where Omegon in that position, and likely had a LOT of infiltrators to the Ultramarines (after all, if the remnants of two legions were folded in, the Alpha Legion infiltrators would be as well.) then isn't that who you would select for those experiments?