Hi all, Wolf Lord Rho back again. Today we discuss the events that unfolded when Roboute Guilliman met his brother Mortarion for the first time since the Great Crusade! What happened? What are the repercussions? And where will it lead?
@@SeismicHammer A family destroyed by drug addiction. One of them went on the straight and narrow path to avoid falling into drugs again, while the other is a shithead who considers "more drugs" the solution to all problems.
@@Thalanox Now the only members left of the adults of the family are the mother, who is stuck with a creepy old man, who struggles to help out her children the best she can, the angry uncle that was responsible for alienating the children from the adults in the first place who occasionally is coherent enough to go and punch some of the children's enemies, and the crazy uncle who thinks it's all a laugh.
damn, this made me think of how guilliman must've felt when he first got resurrected out of stasis. his father dead, all of his brothers (that in this video he stated he loved and respected) have either turned to chaos, killed, disappeared, or dormant, and seeing how the imperium has strayed far from how the emperor envisioned it. yet he suck it all up and launched another crusade instead, what a badass.
@@chipman1589 Rogal failed... He couldn't protect the emperor. Gulliman had to fight his way back to Terra. Only to find his brother, uncle and father lost. Guilliman made sure no legion would be strong enough to defect again in numbers that could threaten the imperium. That plan worked perfectly for the past 11,000 years .
Can't blame him. In the end, when all the blood and gore is done, they're still bros, and Guilliman was perhaps his only brother that was still sane. Any brother, even a plauge demigod thing would be somewhat happy.
The only correct way to write Mortarion should be the hug of death. To the extent the followers of Nurgle feel rage, it should be at the stubborn nature of life to defy death. Beyond that, those that embrace their fate should be treated as honored guests at a party that never ends. Mortarion had serious loyalty/father issues that should not have extended to the other primarchs except for his desire to save them from the pain he felt at the betrayal of a false-god-as-father casting them to the void for some unattainable utopia. Morty is a good boy, he should have been a better brother in this scene.
I really think this is what Roboute Guilliman wanted to say, but was too overwhelmed to say in the moment. Just a hunch based on the narration given. Mortarion: Anwser me this Roboute. Did Father ever love us? Roboute: I don't know, but I loved you, I depended on you, I would have gladly died by your side. As a brother I would have done anything for you, but you betrayed me and broke my heart.
The primarchs are truly far beyond any human. And just as their feats and glories are far beyond anything a normal human could accomplish, the same is true for their flaws. They may try to act with moderation, but nothing they do could ever truly be so. They are both the greatest aspects of humanity and the worst taken to an extreme. When they succeed, their ascension is absolute. And when they fail, their fall is fathomless.
@@bolikde9389 One can argue the Imperium is just another bad fate for the galaxy, though. It's another absolute. Absolutes are never perfect and the Imperium is an extremist mindset that has so many flaws that if you sit down and look at it for more than ten minutes you see how it tips like a card house so easily so often. ( The structure that is. The guardsmen, astartes, etc. are usually rather sturdy and loyal honestly. Especially guardsmen but people prefer to think of them as cowards. ) Honestly? Astartes are perversions of man and the Emperor uses them as tools. Not as " What mankind could be " ... if that's what mankind could be... unthinking, unfeeling killing machines, would you really want to live? Some mindless, interchangeable cog who's only defining trait might be the armor scheme, weapon specialization or environmental training they got? That's no future. It's just as bleak as the Chaos futures. Basically you don't win in 40K. I think the only way to win at this point is for the Emperor to somehow put the chaos gods down, the alien races to somehow disband the Imperium so it doesn't go on a witch hunt while letting it retain the swathes of territory it stole from the aliens... then they'd just get to have fun fighting orcs for the rest of it's years, being all the Astro-militarum really has to oppose.
@@Khornecussion mankind perverted the Emperor's original view. The fate the galaxy is bound to isn't the Emperor's fault. That was set in stone pre 30k
I like this kinda back and forth, highlights that despite their immense power ultimately they are brothers reduced to simple children squabbling amongst themselves
Not sure what you mean by “daddy issues” but Its 30K not 40K and the sons betraying their father is literally what the Horus heresy is all about. If you don’t like it read 40K instead
"Did our father love us?" "I don't know, but I loved you. I loved all my brothers and when you turned to the Dark Gods it broke my heart. I would gladly accept death if it meant that the brothers I cared about would never have turned down the path of damnation."
TBF most of the primarchs were grown men before they met their father, living lives of conflict and struggle. How do you step into that as a father? The loss of the primarch incubation pods was a true victory for Chaos.
@@Horesmi Yes the important one who turned evil was also the one that spent the most personal time with his father. Maybe the connection is inverse of what I implied.
Every primarch has had a foster father, they don't have daddy issues or maybe seen through the look of a twelve years old reading the books, the Emperor doesn't think of the primarchs as his sons and they barely call him father out of convenience much like imperial spaces marines call their primarch father
It might be akin to a creator-creation relation, certainly never been a junior-daddy relationship. If you read HH that way it's no surprise you think it's shit writing
What Mortarion said about Emperor and how terrible father he was for Primarchs mean so much more when you consider the fact that Mortarion gave himself up to Nurgle to save his sons from perpetual pain caused by Typhus and diseases of Nurgle. Mortarion acted that day more as a father than Emperor would ever do. I think he is more angry at the fact that Emperor would never sacrifice himself for them as Mortarion did for his sons.
You can't really compare them like that tho, can you? The emperors subjects was never gripped in perpetual pain, so it's hypothetical to suggest the emperor would never do the same. Or should the emperor give up his life to save a single legion from a terrible fate?
Because the emperor holds himself responsible for far more than his sons. He lives in eternal torture for 10k years to keep humanity afloat. Even one life of a primarch isnt worth all the souls of humanity.
Although this may just be an artifact of the writing rather than the original intent of GW but each of the Primarchs seems to echo some of the traits of the father. Many people feel Guilliman is the least interesting of the Primarchs. Sanguinius had the nobility of the Emperor for instance. Guilliman seems to be the civilization builder...love for humanity borne out through the handwork of millennia. To me this is the greatest gift, and makes him more like the Emperor than any of the other primarchs. It's also where Guilliman's loyalty comes from for they both share the goals (as far as we can determine the Emperor's goals). Guilliman can have loyalty and still kick his own ball down the court. It's a fortunate convergence. He's also the most humble of the Primarchs (perhaps? I'm not that well-read) which is also a trait of the Emperor (some may argue differently, but the Emperor we know is a very humble creature, or feigns it, just imagine what he would be like if he was not) which is perhaps one of the most important traits a demi-god facing the enticements from Hell might need. In fact I would say that all of the other traits of the Emperor are just emergent phenomena, and the humble civilization builder is the core of who the Emperor is. I think we will see Guilliman and the Emperor both realizing this and they will become the closest example of the father-son relationship between him and a primarch since Horus. Guilliman will be the tool that the Emperor needed, whether he knew it or not. Additionally, I think the Emperor failed to tell his children his name simply because his name quit having any meaning. When you lived for so many millennia as different people and under different names living different lives from age to age your birth name has little meaning. "The Emperor" is who he is, and his birth name is just fanciful happenstance. Just a few thoughts for someone else who appreciates Guilliman.
@@Dadecorban "That which doesn't kill me, ... isn't trying hard enough". -R. Guilliman I think Guilliman is the pure manifestation of the emperor's sense of righteous indignation.
I agree. People find him boring because he’s not super edgy and grim dark, but he is the most human of the Primarchs. He’s my favorite character in 40K and his return is entirely why I ended up building an Ultramarines army for 8th ed. Guilliman is great.
It's a little funny how people say he's boring but if this was real I think we would want someone stern and unyielding in charge not edgy and prone for outbursts. Guilliman's just the guy who wants to get stuff done as efficiently as possible so I can see why he comes off as boring or distasteful. He probably appears like he looks down on everyone.
I just finished this book on Audible. Holy crap the characterization of Guilliman is exactly what was needed to add depth to the Ultramarines. Can’t wait for book 3.
we need more confrontations between primarchs in the 40k setting. I know its suppose to be grimdark and the primarchs lost but they represent the most interesting parts of the lore and we need them to take front stage.
I've got to say, Mortarion's rants in this conversation made me appreciate him a bit more. And Guilliman's longing for the brother he knew... it builds him too. A great, great scene.
Guilliman was one of if not the only Primarch who saw a future for his bothers and their sons after the crusade was over. He was always looking out for everyone and everything. For that I will always love and respect him. What ever path this new life he’s been reborn into takes him... We march for humanity, and we shall know no fear.
Yep. He even made a round table on Macragge for all of the Primarchs and their Father for when the Crusade was done, setting up seats in honor of the Lost Primarchs and leaving the thrones and banners of the Traitors in place even after their betrayal. For when the war was done, and they could all sit together to talk of empire.
If you look at the Iron Hands short stories. Ferrus actually dreamed of his legion becoming simple farmers and protectors fully embracing the beauty and strength of the human spirit and body
To me Guilleman always seemed to be the most balanced minded to a degree when it came to his Brothers not as quick to judge unlike when Horus first met Russ.
The Emperor's Sword was in Cawl's possession and was in Guilliman's hand the second he was restored to life and he used it to kill the many chaos marines that despoiled the temple of Correction/Shrine of the Primarch, that were there to stop his resurrection.
How deliciously ironic would it have been if Guilliman had been saved by a death guard primaris chapter. Openly rejecting their gene father in an act of defiance and loyalty to the Imperium.
@@willtiffany5409 Cawl did make them, as well as primaris made from the gene seed of the lost primarchs, but Guilliman forbade them being activated. If Cawl listened? Who's to say
He did but they basically dumped all that and made him like any other traitor primarch as a little whiney daddy issues baby. Mortarion struggling with what he was forced to become and what he was would have been better
@@AdeptKing At least Lorgar had the beginning of a point. Alpharius was shown spoopy visions by the Cabal (i.e. xenos with a very keen interest in stopping the Great Crusade before it demolished them) and he swallowed everything he was given without questioning it at all. That great master of deception.
i mean it's been ten thousand years of the nightmare love-bomb that is the cult of Nurgle. I wouldn't be surprised of Mortarion'd learned some of the talking points by now at least.
What if the emporer is able to listen through the sword into what was happening with guilliman the whole time and heard every word of what mortarian said.
He is a warp god kinda.. I think he knows either way. Long before Magnus was found, he and Emps talked through psychic means. Not sure how is their relationship now, but I think they can still flip off each other whenever they want to. The only Primarch that remained kind of "normal" in this sense - not a warp ghost - is Guiliman. The Emps is kind of a god now.
Bad things can happen when ideals become more important than the people said ideals are supposed to serve/uplift. Just look how the French Revolution turned, little by little, into the Reign of Terror.
well, hes kinda forced to work with their nearly immortal enemies, {Eldar} he was almost killed by his evil snake daemon brother {Fulgrim} who cheated with poisoned swords that still attack his body to this day, The emperor is a un-undead skeleton on a decaying throne, and he is now the commander and chief of billions of humans across the galaxy who believes the Emperor is a God even though its the very thing the Emperor spent thousands of years to turn humanity against the gods to defeat chaos. And on top of that he is in a unending war against daemons, chaos marines, other humans, million of tyranids, every Alien possible and even his own brothers... *no shit hes depressed!*
Well how far mortarion fell, he used to be abhorred to weakness and wouldn’t have bounded Guliman and instead just fought him to prove he is above his loyalist brother
Guliman was never faced with mortrion's choice. Any primarch that wasn't a hyper-zelot would have spared their chapter over meaningless destruction. Even in the early editions of 40k, SM's know their worth, and do not needlessly sacrifice themselves in futile combat. Mortarion is, if nothing else, a better exemplar of what the emperor professes to be, than any other primarch.
The primarchs were brothers, brothers argue and fight but, in the end, they can come together. It's ironic, then, that Russ and Johnson came the closest to being true brothers by fighting each other. And only Russ realized the truth of it and started laughing.
On the point of wanting fatherly affection, and the emperor's handling of his sons: it's no accident that the primarchs with serious issues were the first to fall. Lorgar with his pathological need for religious worship, Horus with the weight of responsibility and a distant, uncaring father, Mortarion with his bitterness, Fulgrim with his insecurities, Angron... well, he's just a mess. But the emperor is to blame for most of this- he left his sons unaware of and vulnerable to the threat of chaos, and treated his sons more like tools than his kin, never caring to give them the time of day. If he'd been more charismatic, if he'd shown more care, he would have inspired much more loyalty. This is the problem with feudalism- a lord's power is only as strong as that of his vassals, and if his vassals are unhappy with their lord's ruling, they may rebel. And it's not like the issues with empy all came down to daddy issues. Jaghatai Khan, for example, resented his father because he was well aware of the warp and its dangers, and knew that the imperium was built on a lie from the get-go; he valued truth and freedom and found neither in the tyrannical imperium.
@@Archon3960 Magnus more than anything is Empy's fault. He believed in the enlightenment dogma and was at once super powerful and also completely unaware of the real dangers of psykerhood. Konrad was almost as bad as Angron- who in their right mind gives a homicidal psychopath a legion of super soldiers?
The emperor was no fool, he would have known some would fall. Where his arrogance kicked in was thinking he could contain the damage. I think Horus, in particular, really undermined his confidence for the first time ... ever?
Richard Valdes - Rasmussen. I see your name and Damian X on almost every 40K video that I watch. Glad to see I'm not the only one taking in everything I can
Konrad Curze knew what would happen, seeing the Emperor as a dead thing raised as a god. I for one want more information about Fulgrim teaching Curze as Fulgrim was the closest to Curze
I have two thoughts about this. 1) The Emperor's initial plan of countering Chaos powers by starving them of their worship failed 2) He discovered whilst on the Golden Throne he could convert the energy of his worship into a power to counter the warp. My reasoning being he did not show this kind of power when he defended the Webway gate on Terra and in his confrontation with Horus. Also in the latest Psychic Awakening series the miracles of the Emperor are not affected by Blackstone which does nullify Chaos energies.
I love the way the author toys with the reader, often times people want answers but sometimes a deeper side of us wants mystery. The fact that mortarian doesn't know what Robert knows and Robert doesn't know what mortarian knows is only heightened by the fact that we don't know either.
Wonder how Mortarion would react to being on the pointed end of his fathers sword. Would he beg his brother to spare him or would he mock Guilliman for being too hesitant to deal the killing blow?
God GW has done a FANTASTIC job with the daemon primarchs, magnus and mortarion have been given absolute justice and I think they are easily the best representations of these characters
Louis Le blanc they have done a fine job With magnus, he is not the weak innocent primarch everyone thinks he is, his flaw has always been arrogance. He is pure evil, a true villan, through and through, did it start out that way? No. It didn’t, but he let himself become consumed with power, knowlage, arrogance, and as a result his fate was decided.
When you were referring to the emperor interacting with the battle telepathically from the golden throne it could be that his sword makes this much easier or after having the sword with him for 10,000 years it has gained more of his essence. Of course that is all speculation thought it was worth mentioning given how little we know of how the emperor sword works.
Roboute Guilliman reborn true incarnation of Big E! In the end the Emperor protects, so it is his will, that he wears the sword. Even the Eldar where stunned by the power of Guilliman.
@@Archon3960 Dude I always wondered what the difference between "perpetuals live forever" and "massively enhanced psychic power on a galactic scale" was. Like if the emperor is some sort of c'tan shard using humanity for the purpose of apotheosis... Or he has tapped into a power somehow connected to the webway/labyrinth dimension that can oppose chaos... We may never know
Hey man, I love your channel. The way you cover all of the most important moments between the Primarchs, malcador, the Emperor, etc is fantastic. I just have one quick request: in your video description, could you tell us which novel the passages are from? Thanks man. Keep up the good work.
what if the golden kid is the first appearance of the star child? would be fitting cosidering the emotional speech and the theory that the emperor cast away his humanity when killing horus and from that power the star child was created.
I agree- that was a hard-hitting truth bomb that Guilliman lit, there- the “where was my brother who...” part. I really enjoyed that. I don’t enjoy about 90% of the new 40K lore- I am a Heresy-era purist- but at some point, I have to look past 30K into 40K, and when I do, it’s parts like that one that give me hope. Thanks for the great video as usual, Wolf Lord Rho.
You left out my favorite part when the custodes looked at the girls eyes and sad something like 'my emperor?'. I had a tear in the corner of my eye. Maybe it was the son shining through the window though...
I read a theory that said ol' Emps imbued the primarchs with his emotions, literally. After he made them, he no longer felt some emotions, and that's why he was so cold and clinical. That could explain why he was such a stuck up turd of a father. Not that that would excuse calling your sons by their number rather than name, or to view them as a (possibly failed) experiment.
Johan Vedefors yea but he do isn’t see them as his sons just weapons he created they labeled him father where as he was just their creator and they his tools,the primarchs are all emotional lil bitches
To be fair more than half of them were failures. Don't forget that Emps also has his own biological children, so the primarchs were failed genetic experiments to him. As for the emotions part, nah... You can't just transfer your emotions to someone else and not have them yourself anymore.
@@dole-brentbayalas854 i mean how can you. he even says as much when his looking at angrons brain. he doesnt give a shit its like any general in history he wants his commanders to feel just enough love to do what he wants for his objectives. that said i dont think his the bad guy at all
A great one is the battle on Fenris, where Bjorn goes toe to toe with Magnus, Krom gets blasted just before handing the spear of Russ. And Logan Grimnar basically skewers Magnus with it and is then banished. It'll be a while before Magnus licks his wounds after that one!
@@decimus7781 He fought an avatar of magnus though, Not Magnus himself, And Bjorn knows it, Had he done. Magnus would of blinked him out of existence with a chuckle. Magnus wasnt there himself
That is an amazing image of Mortarion with his wings an sycth so so cool. Although I think I heard a line that WLR read that describes Mortarion wings as insect wings...."his insect wings flapped...blah blah blah..." That's an odd way of putting it at the very least.
Though I love a good read I spend most of my time reading documents and audits for work 39 hours a week I much prefer you narration on these matters its easier on my eyes, ears and you do paint a very good mental image so thank you Lord Rho for saving my sanity. Many respects
I am so far behind on current lore and novels, but your videos at least keep my head above water so I have a general idea of what's been going on. Thanks for all the great work :)
I'm relatively new to Warhammer 40k but I love the lore. Also love the Death Guard and Mortarion. I would have loved to see what would have happened if they never turned to chaos due the Typhus treachery. Or if there was any way that Mortarion could return to the light of the Imperium, though highly unlikely.
@justin leckey that's cool to see another think that, most from what I seen is that most believe Magnus would be the one to turn as he wasn't really a traitor in the heresy until Leman attacked him.
@justin leckey Mortarion never gave his soul to nurgle. If I recall coreclly. Hes the only traitor primark that rejected Deamon princehood. If he could find Aisha he could theoretcly free himself and hes sons from Nugrles plauges.
He is, because he has no one to follow, no one to believe into. His whole fight for Barbarus, which he spent most of his life preparing himself for was ridiculed and looked down at by his father, then he realises that the Emperor himself was using the warp constantly (since his time on Barbarus sorcery became somewhat of a nightmare for Mortarion, considering all the necromants and their toys), then his own first captain betrays him and his whole legion, makes them suffer and leaves Mortarion with no choice than to subject to Nurgle. Keeping all of this in mind, yeah, he definitely needs somethinng to believe into
“I will take your kingdom for my own,” I don’t know a lot about Mortarion, but I wouldn’t have figured him as the type to want a empire. Or as the type who would rather be “the champion of the common folk.”
Great video Rho, I just recently listened to this audio book. Guy Haley is an amazing writer. I didn't think anyone could rival Dan Abnett but Guy is amazing. Listening to Belasarius Cawl The Great Work now :)
@@wolflordrho if possible, when you find time in the future look into a analysis on the alpharius and Dorn fight? Ik it is 30k but i'm sure the Dorn fan boys would love that.
interesting, that flaming sword and the Ynnari can destroy deamon permanently, coincidence or not that the Ynnari could also destroy deamons before they even awakened Roboute. Stretching it a bit...could it be...that this is the last of the 5 legendary ynnari swords?
I agree that Guy Haley excellently portrays the emotions of the primarchs, I couldn't put the book down. Once I finished the first book I went straight to the next.
Its sad in a way...the primarchs wanted their father as all children do, but they failed to see the dual competing duties of a father, as children ever do fail too. The emperor failed with the emotional responsibility true enough, but a fathers other duty is to protect their children and work to create a better world for them and in that he gave his all. Unless it has been retconed, there is a chamber deep within the emperors palace that he set aside for his sons to live together in peace once it was over. The emperor was from everything i can figure so very human in his own way, he was the father who cared so much but failed to communicate or show his emotions so threw himself into his work to make something BETTER for both them and the race he served.
