Rollback is gona give US the legs WE need to PLAY THESE FUCKING GAMES. Playing XRD against my friend less than 1500KM away from me and getting unplayable lag after a few sets is one of the reasons I don't preach these games anymore. I have run out of legitimate excuses for why people should pick up any fighting game without Rollback.
@@TheRealVordox But rollback works as a delay netcode until there is a desync, this separation you did doesn't make sense. If rollback is under 50 pings and there is not desync the rollback will work as a delay netcode.
@@boxheadfred3475 "Because X is always equally as good as Y and I, an enlightened centrist, am smart for recognizing that in every single situation." - that guy probably
Luckily there has come an alternative for Smash Ultimate. I can't say how to get it (The game and keys that is) and all cause that's technically illegal, but if you use the Yuzu Emulator and then use either Parsec or another program called Moonlight (Moonlight is overall better latency wise but the host MUST have a NVIDIA GPU so some people can't run it), you can stream the game to other players and have like 2 frames of delay. The host will have none while the people connecting will have 2-4 at most I've seen. However setting up the emulator is a pain and requires a decently beefy PC to run it well but there are multiple discord servers that will help people set it up.
@@shadowstar2194 So you're saying if nintendo were to somehow make parsec work together with smash that would make ultimate have siginificantly better online without them even having to transition to rollback?
@@b-d9099 Nintendo never would partner up with Parsec, they would just implement a new system at that point, but yea basically. If they truly wanted to, they could just hook up Parsec somehow and it would be miles better. Although they may strain the Parsec servers and may end up with the same result that we have now of laggy matches all the time. The good news is that Sakurai has been approaching fighting game devs lately asking about netcode improvements and the one patch a few months back reduced online's lag by about 2 frames, so at least he's trying I guess, we may get a decent, still below average, online by the time the game is done at the end of next year. Sakurai unfortunately said something a while back essentially saying that Rollback is impossible to implement for Smash Ultimate, they considered it but it didn't work.
@@shadowstar2194 Yeah from what I've heard the only chance to implement rollback would be to do something like messing with the source code assuming that's even doable. It's unfortunate that ultimate came out before devs started acknowledging rollback netcode considering it'll be the only smash game they work on for at least a few years, very much doubt there'll be another smash switch title.
Every single Fighting Game Dev needs to watch this vid. The excitement and earnest hopeful positivity permeating here is infectious. That's what rollback inspires.
It wouldn't last that long. I imagine something like this: "Rollback is good" "Yes, it is." "Every fighting game should have it" "Yes, they should." The end,
SNK is implementing rollback to their older games too so I hope that KOFXV will have Rollback, once it's out. I hope that this is one of the reasons why its development is taking so long.
@@salhyy9962 SNK is doing better in a long time, their not even close to being bankrupt. They got bought out by a Chinese conglomerate, which is why you see them pushing mobile and alot more marketing to chinese, their making some pretty good bucks. Their rerelease of classic games and implementing rollback on faves like garou and KOF 2002 UM is helping sales too, and samurai showdown did well enough for them to add dlc. They should definitely have decent budget now, and their probably taking rollback into it for the 1st time themselves and having trouble since their new to it, even with help from code mystics, so their really being careful with artstyle and graphics since thats what turned most people off from it, so its going to take awhile naturally.
Remember when Skullgirls had good gameplay, good netcode, and a great tutorial mode and then never took off the way it should've? Skullgirls fans remember.
Gameplay is good, but fucking bonkers. It's like mahvel, and mahvel caters to a certain subset of players. Take that, then remove the actual Marvel characters, and you lose the casual audience. Skullgirls is sick, but not for everyone.
Accent Core is a bloody miracle who me who lives in New Zealand like I am so bad at the game but I feel like I've been getting slightly better every lose and its fun mayn
Finding good connection matches in most fighting games is really rare in NZ, since I assume there's like 10 of us here that play them. So I'm praying for more games with good netcode.
I picked up Them's Fightin' Herds and +R a few days ago, and I'm convinced that rollback is just magic. I got absolutely bopped in every online match I played, but I didn't lag a single time, so I'm not even mad.
Brotha, I’ve been watching your vids for like 5 years now and I gotta say, you are the absolute heart and core of the FGC. You are the glue that connects outsiders to the culture of fighting games. You are the Fresh Prince of the FGC. Salute, respect, and by fucking GOD, thank you for existing. Just wanted to say that. 💯
250ms = 2 frames, wow that's amazing, it's like I can play with almost whole world, I'm from EU and: - North America is like 120-180ms - Asia is 150-200ms - South America and South Africa is 160-200ms - Korea, Japan and Australia is like 230-260ms - Only place where connection would be bad is China - It's 350-500ms
@@kaceejones2282 Yes in the delay based netcodes that he was complaining about. He was praising the GG netcode for being able to provide 250ms = 2 frames delay. Which is insane.
News just came in, the beta for Guilty Gear AC+R has been extended indefinitely until the stable branch is released, its 3 bucks as of writing, youve got no excuse now.
Rollback is one side, crossplay is another. While the panorama for online matchmaking is greener than ever before, fighting games is still a niche, anyone outside a first world country suffer with a small player base.
The upside is that rollback widens the range of acceptable matches significantly. On delay, you can play one state away. On rollback, you can play an ocean away.
Internet in Japan has 96% domestic penetration and 2gbps is both common and affordable at around $45 a month. It really isn't their fault most of the world is underdeveloped and even in other first world countries shit IPs like Comcast control a large share of the net.
@@Stroggoii A.) Even if that's the case as to why they don't adopt rollback and it isn't it's no excuse to only design your online play around a single country when you're planning on selling an international product. This is also if we ignore that the U.S. and western nations have now supplanted Japan as the primary video game market of the world. B.) The real reason this is an issue is a phenomenon called "not invented here" syndrome which is the primary reason they've been reluctant to adapt to rollback netcode. Japanese culture and specifically Japanese business culture is notorious for suffering from "not invented here". They're not very keen on trusting or using technologies or systems they didn't create yet alone weren't even created from within Japanese culture. It's the same reason a lot of Japanese game companies refuse to acknowledge and use a lot of the more successful design decisions of western game developers in their game design for better or worse.
@@Stroggoii The Guilty Gear +R community has hosted and streamed online exhibition sets with the West's top players versus Japan's these past couple days of the beta, on top of holding 200+ entrant online tournaments, which would've been unheard of before. JP players all over twitter expressed their marvel at just how amazing the online felt - they could do all of the tech that could pull off in arcades and actually be able to fight Western players in minimal lag. Many of their first impressions about rollback netcode had been soured thanks to poor implementation from games like SFV and 3rd Strike Online Edition, so it was genuinely not something Japanese audiences could see all the hubub about as their matchmaking became increasingly more insular. It'd be silly of JP devs not to care about it now when a rollback beta introduced to the final version of a $3 boomer anime game from 2002 managed to get more concurrent and maximum players than all other fighting games on Steam. After this wild COVID year where there's little to no events taking place, it's become all too clear if it hasn't already before that good netcode is paramount to a fighter's success, and recent games that haven't heeded that call like GBVS and SamSho are floundering and paying the price for it. A standard has been set, any new fighter released in the future that still uses delay-based matchmaking is practically dead on arrival, especially when people are expected to pay $60 for it.
@@jackcoleman1784 for knowing so much about Japanese business practice, you are impressively negligent to how little Japan has continuously proven it cares about external markets.
I loved playing Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 with my friends at college, and then the quarantine happened and we all moved back to our respective states in the country. I tried to set up a match online with one of my friends a few months ago and we were surprised by how fast we got to fighting and how little lag there was. By the end we both saw a victory screen and realized the servers gave up and made us fight bots the second the match started. Our recollection of the fight was completely different and we were both wailing on brain dead CPUs. Never played the game since. Online is very important and if it makes you fight bots without telling you, then what’s the point of playing at all.
I know this video is two years old but rollback has truly been able to bring people around the world to play fighting games properly. I have friends in other parts of the country and it's like they are just playing local with me. It's amazing and basically the standard now.
Japanese players now saying Rollback is revolutionary has the same feeling as if a human rediscovered the wheel considering how old Rollback and GGPO are
I loved playing UMvC3 locally and I wanted to get good with it around the time it was during it's hype but playing online for it sucked. I'm glad Arc System added rollback to Guilty Gear.
Let alone the massive ms delays, you also need to consider their netcode stability, reliability and matchmaking system. There will also be packet loss/burst, jitter etc amongst many other possible network issues on either client and server ends.
I have to say that owning and constantly playing fighting games in order to become better is a character building process and not only a unique gaming experience. Fighting games definitely need to survive and bring more people in. Slowly becoming better at Tekken 7, DBFZ and GGREV2 is incredible.
I have a friend in Norway, one in Brazil, a few in America and some in Europe. I'm in Australia and when we play guilty gear or Skullgirls it just runs so smooth and we can all have fun without any issues popping up. It's honestly so fun because I always wanted to play with my American friends when I was little but lag always made me suffer, now it's just not noticeable at all in fighting games. :)
rollback and crossplay will be the main components to having these games survive for periods of time between content. When you have a large pool of people there are more people around your skill level and when you can actually play them well with rollback netcode skill-based match making actually works like it should which keeps people playing the game without getting utterly blasted every match. Not to even factoring in the length of time you spend finding a match.
When it comes to rollback I’ve heard, seen and read loads of factual and theoretical arguments. But fightings are built differently from each other. 2D Fighters would naturally have an easier time implementing rollback. But like Harada (tekken producer) has said countless times there are many variables that go into implementing rollback into a game like tekken especially when movement and hit/hurt boxes are concerned. I can imagine it would be the same for a game like Soulcalibur who’s code would be a lot easier to fuck up. I would expect rollback for T8 and SC7 but these current projects have been well underway for quite some time now, improvement is the best we can hope for. Have we asked these developers the level of difficultly they face when trying to implement this or do we not care?
People honestly don't care about the difficulty of implimenting rollback, even going as far as to say it's nothing more than an excuse for not doing so because it'll make the game much better once the developers do. They tend to forget that it's a meticulous method that can easily fuck up everything if you miss even one fireball, and that particular line is from the developers of Killer Instinct's netcode.
I've been trying to get into Xrd since June 2019, and my options for playing people were: -Go to my locals and hope one of mayybe 5 GG people is there, all of which compete at tournaments, so I felt like I was wasting their time (but they taught me a lot!) -hope that I can find a lobby on PSN, with some 3bar connections And even then, I could tell when people were playing on wifi (I play wired of course), and I could never tell if I was legitimately winning, or cheesing Wi-Fi/delay with Jam's normals. It made it hard to feel like I was improving, and I had trouble making it to locals because I work weekends.
Under Night In-Birth is my favorite fighting game of all time, and I haven't played it in 6+ months because of the online alone. At least in my experience, I won't want to play something for long if the netcode is that bad, which is why playing +R has been so fun and refreshing for a lot of people, myself included.
I feel this as an older gamer who's loved fighting games from day 1. I'm so glad to see GG and other series becoming playable online, globally. I'm also a constant player of SFV, but sadly it's delay based netcode is not up to par.
Yeah I was hoping Max would back to GBVS someday but this video was basically him saying this is not gonna happen unless the impossible happens, which means, the game to get rollback netcode. I remember him spending hours trying to learn new combos for Soriz. I guess the bad online experience must had killed him inside after that.
Would be funny if there was a game with good delay based netcode. I guess this could be only possible if the game had extremelly low input lag itself so the few added frames wouldnt be felt
If i ever meet max i would want to eat pizza with him he probably knows some good pizza spots the pizza would be on me :D i use to get together with friends and eat pizza but since i got crippled threw 4 spine surgeries since 16 and they moved away i havent gotten to do that.. but anyway max.. thanks for being a great person in the fighting game community..your such a good dude your not toxic your such a awesome person. Thanks for helping me threw my deppression and pain with laughs etc.. :D
It's come to the point where if I hear that the game's online isn't good, I'm not purchasing it. We need to start holding these developers accountable when it comes to the online experience of their games.
Even Sajam and Max are not holding anyone accountable other than talking about it. They will still buy and play games with delay based netcode. Game publishers cares the most about sales and they have yet to take a significant loss cause of their delay based netcode.
Yeah from now I'm not even going to look at a game if it doesn't have rollback. Tbh the two most important things for fighting ms game right now is rollback netcode and crossplay.
Nope, I don´t want my ass to be kicked so badly. I barely do stuff there. I mean, I like it, but I´m not good at it. Unless I find noobs like me, then I´d play, XD
You should see the JJBA fighting game community. I had no idea it existed but theres still really good players in the community. I've never played it so I cant speak for myself but it makes me wonder if rollback is what keeps their community alive across seas.
As nice as it is to see that more devs are embracing rollback and more fighting games are getting it implemented (well-ish enough anyway), I can't help but feel bad about all those niche fighters I like that will only get left behind even more than they already have been. The ones that don't have the demand, support, or funding to make the switch like "Guilty Gear", "Last Blade", "Garou", and so on do. I guess that is just the price that has to paid for rollback to become the norm in the future. Then again, even if they got rollback, that probably still wouldn't be enough to save them. That's just how niche and/or actively disliked some of them are.
but remember that crossplay is to really rely's on MS and Sony's part to then server side things ..... ID's of PS5, XSX, and PC :) hehe PC mods go brrr.
Especially PC needs it the most. That community is desperate for more players. There’s like a max of 2k players in most fighting games on PC most of which are in like Asia and Russia. Mk11 is a desert. The rooms literally have a total of maybe 5 people I shit you not. Meanwhile on console almost all rooms are full. NRS has been ignoring the PC community hard, everything console has been getting is shit PC needed most not console.
Even though I am still a beginner I made the jump from rev2 to +R and after experiencing rollback for the first time I am not going back until they patch rollback there too!
On PC atleast it's really great. Like really great, especially if you play like USA to USA, EU to EU etc. If you're both on cable it's fine if the distance is bigger. Jmcrofts played it and said it's really good
haven't played Tekken for like 3 months or so cause the online experience was HORRID. I jumped in when S4 came out and its MUCH better, I can have constant 5 bars with people from my region now AND I had some actual great stable 4 bar matches with people from France, Italy, Spain, some dutch dude and more. So yeah it's noticeably much better. Keep in mind that I'm from the middle east with like worst possible internet connection(my upload speed is like 300 kb with ethernet lol), but I still was able to have good stable matches in that little amount of time that I played. Edit: I'm on console.
Harada is still a jackass because T7 is still 100% not rollback netcode (and it never has been), but the fixes to the online have been a major improvement nonetheless. Even on wifi, connections are much better overall.
@@samaqan9461 From what I understand from a demonstration video, you don't actually want 100% rollback. You want rollback implemented in properly, but you don't want just rollback by itself.
It's better than it was, but it's not well implemented. The input delay still fluctuates above a certain threshold, it's basically fancy delay based netcode
I second ya on this on a high note cuz when I used to play Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 on PS3 the netcode was atrocious I rarely fought against people who had atleast 3-4 bars it was always 1-2. For every single input I did it was always several frames behind it would take a few seconds or more for me to fully get a hit in or a combo. Hell even when I tried to punish or commit etc the netcode always stopped me from doing that.
Accent Core was the first time I've ever stuck with online matches because of the rollback beta. Its the most fun I had getting blown up in a fighting game.
I think Pokken has a decent delay netcode. I live in Europe and get even player from US and Brazil with none or only 5 Frame delay. But, maybe 1 of 100 matches, I have a game that is underwater. Hitting a button and 3 sec. later the attack came out is nuts.
Me connecting from Hawaii to my friend in Portugal (12-13 hour difference so almost exactly the other side of the world) was about 250ms on ethernet and it pretty much felt like playing Offline. Way better than me and my friend who live in the same state playing on delay based netcode Xrd. That shit still lags due to fluctuating frames. We're super impressed with the roll back netcode on GGXXAC+R and I've been playing it since initial PS3 release and the Steam release years ago and the online NEVER felt anywhere close to this badass!!! It used to be so bad I never wanted to play it online. BRING ON THE ROLLBACK NETCODE TO EVERYTHING CAUSE IT ACTUALLY MAKES ME WANT TO PLAY SHIT ONLINE IN HAWAII!!! (Normally we connect to everyone else very badly on most games due to distance so it's always laggy but not this time!) 😃
KOF 12 and 13s online were doo doo WATER! for along time even with KOF 14 but not as bad same for KOF 2002 UM but recently SNK finally included rollback in that game and its functioning like pure champ!!!
@@valentds Not really. It works better, rollback artifacts are rare, but you can see them if you connect to a red bar, so it is in fact rollback. Plus, you can decline WiFi matches, which also improves experience. Leroy and Fahkumram got nerfed, they're manageable now.
Everyone loves the new netcode in tekken 7 people can finally play from US to Europe with no input delay that’s impressive .People will hate but I don’t hate any fighting game but I’m just a Tekken guy 🤷🏻♂️
Hey Max as I've just picked up Soul Cal again on PC since its on sale I was wondering if you were ever gonna pick it up again? I'd love to see you play with Setsuka and the new fighting improvements!
Probably if they implement the same changes they did for Tekken. Soulcalibur online is.... not very enjoyable. Especially since you can't decline wifi-warriors
SC's multiplayer is probably some of the worst there is for its genre unfortunately... however, like Max says, if a game has/gets good rollback, he'll come to it eventually no matter what if it's a good game.
You don't need to play *only* GG to be good at it, I will say. I've played probably almost like 30 games competitively since I started competing with GG in 2005. Turns out it was actually a great place to start too - kicks several fundamental things into overdrive if you're really playing the game with people and not just trying to do the combos and setups. I haven't really played much Accent Core since 10-12 years ago, and +R really never got its time to shine since it came out only about a year before Xrd hit. We locally played AC for like 6 years and +R for barely any time at all, so it's almost like a new version to me. There's a great scene of beginner events/tournaments that are happening and the discord for it seems to be functioning well. We just had a great, huge 25 vs 25 on Saturday that I was a part of. Excellent time to get into GG, and the game with a price of $3.
Parsec works as client server, there is no syncing involve, it just runs and you send information to it, it doesn't care what your connection is like. If your connection is trash or you are too far then you shit gets there late.
Its mostly japanese fighting games. Now they are implementing netcode. The online exprience is gonna be amazing FINALLY. Tekken7 improved there online experience is amazing.
Good rollback will always be a godsend. AC+R got quite a boost in players, but it's not like it grew to SFV or T7 numbers. Yet, that low pop barely matters. Even when it's only 500-600 people online, it's still possible to find someone within your skill range. That is a first for an ArcSys game that is over a year old and not named DBFZ.
KOF 2002 UMs player base went up drastically after rollback was implemented. So now that GGAC+R and KOF 2002 UM has rollback itll kill other games and other games in general that has delay base like KOF 14 and GG Xrd
The game that struggle the most from delay netcode is fighterz that game have been a living hell and heaven at the same time i love that game so much and i grinded it for like 1500+ hours but me a guy that his fault is living in middle east made that game a complete mental suffering instead i used to sit in the lobby for like 30 min+ just to find a red connection with 15 delay
The point is having a game as good as fighterz which its all about playing online and having it sucks like that then the game would just suck with it i just hope all fighting games get or have rollback from now on
Lets not forget the fact that terrible input delay in certain fighting games can straight up just lead to developing bad habits that can be a bitch and a half to get rid of later on. It might not be noticeable for a good long while, but your brain knows eventually. I know a bunch of people who dealt with this in MKX specifically.
West coast to EU is pretty much 200-250 ms with decent connection. East coast to EU is like 120-150. Hey Max check out Rushdown Revolt. Rollback netcode.
So glad that companies are starting to turn around and actually focus on making better online experiences. But it just makes me sad that Smash Ultimate is never gonna get better online. It has such an amazing roster of characters and we most likely won't get that ever again by the time they finally make Smash online good.
