Romance in D&D - Vox Machina, Ep. 33 | Critical Role Demystified 

Have you ever played in a game where player characters entered a romance with each other? How did it go?

Mike: "Not swearing is a trait that demonstrates genius and control." Also Mike: "Ass-balls."

Taliesin has such an incredible talent for quick and witty one liners, from "Your life is forfeit" to "I am your god, long may I reign", good one liners that have incredibly important repercussions down the line. But "You're the luckiest person in Whitestone. You know why? Because you're at the bottom of my list" is just such an amazing and badass line by itself that even without context is incredible.

I fuckin love Percy's quote after rolling the 4th 20. "I...I feel like an asshole."

I really feel bad for Laura. Vex's design and build is basically the archetype for the Gloomstaker. Especially since she would later mutliclass into a rogue which is so broken when paired with a Gloomstaker. Too bad she was playing Vex before Xanathar's was released and basically made the perfect subclass for her.

Honestly Vax/Keyleth walked so Percy/vex could run. I adore Vaxleth with all my heart and its so beautiful especially in the end game.

This is a good channel. This is a good series. I like Mike.

I really don't like how Friends explicitly says it makes the target hostile. All it needs to say is "the target knows it has been charmed when the spell ends," which is what it already does. It basically does the same exact thing, while also allowing the DM to actually have the NPC react with more nuance.

I love how much VM care about each other in these scenes. Keyleth trying to keep Percy grounded, Vex threatening Ripley to stop her from continuing to tempt Percy, Vax both trying to keep him focused on the Briarwoods and immediately agreeing to go and scout Anders' study when it's suggested, it's so good.

You know its amazing how Sam has had such a fascination with firearms across all 3 of his characters, yet he hasn't played a gunslinger or gun artificer yet.

You didn't mention this, but for me the highlight of the episode was Percy collecting Vex's arrows after the fight with Anders and then beating Vax with them while yelling at him not to go charging into battle alone.

I feel like they play romance the right way. It's clear that the players that romance each other get close as the result of it. Marisha and Liam specifically has spoken about the adjustment period between campaigns. A love for a close friend can be as strong as romantic love, but it's clear that they have safety discussion behind the scenes, because the middle school vibe is diminishing as they progress. Of course, being actors help! But it never something you can assume will happen. And when the players are safe, I have no complaints 😊

I am glad that over time, the cast became more mature about romance at their table. A lot of their initial childish reactions to Vaxleth sadly did lead to a lot of early ship discourse, which definitely made things awkward. Hell, we see the maturity develop in-game as well, especially from Vex as she becomes less and less antagonistic. Something that I thought was done very well in LOVM, notably in Season 2.

Marisha Hiding behind her things is litterally how I feel everytime I get a compliment. Thanks for the great video again!

I would wager that some of the awkwardness is also the fact that they've had so many issues with people's "hot takes" about what is or isn't allowed in DnD. I think they've gotten past caring if people are going to complain about romance, especially since they had queer romances in the next campaign and told people to just not watch if they are so upset about it.

For me this was the episode that Critical Role became Critical Role. Before this episode I feel they were just having fun and doing their thing. Liam made a decision that pushed the entire table outside of their comfort zone and the consequence of that is that it changed their story-telling from then on. They took narrative chances and dug deeper on so many topics. And this was the domino that started it.

You know the trope “Launcher of a Thousand Ships”? Welp. This is the romance arc that started it all. The first, and best. The one that would have long-lasted repercussions well into the future. My OTP. And of all days, this is posted on my birthday!

I love the way Marisha hides. And the absolute SHOCK on her face

Watching this for the first time was so real visceral, i could see Cassandra's blood spilling out and skin going pale, really hooked me for the rest of S1!

You've got a good point when you say the Vaxleth romance was hinted at before the confession, and I think that helps a lot. It wasn't sprung out of nowhere, the players all had time to come to terms with it, and I think Vax's "dying monologue" in Episode 25 was a brilliant way for Liam to convey this. It made it clear to both the players and audience that Vax was interested in Keyleth, but since it was his private thoughts, the CHARACTERS aren't made aware of it yet. Thinking about it, most of the cast's romances have been foreshadowed like this, though I won't spoil later campaigns here. I feel like if I was in this situation though, I'd probably ask the other player, either privately or alongside the DM, whether they'd be okay with a romance between our characters. And... okay, I don't want to bring this up again since we're past the Tiberius era, but there's something I've always wondered. Firstly, I don't expect Orion to have handled this as maturely (at that time) if he was still with the group when this dropped. And that's because... in his playlist on Geek And Sundry (not sure if it exists anymore?), I remember Orion commenting that "Allura might not be the only one Tiberius has his eye on". Given the "drunk Tiberius" incident and being close to her for the early arcs, I wonder if that was Keyleth? If so... oh boy that could've been awkward.

Mike, I greatly appreciate the quality of your subtitles. It’s a small possibly thankless task, but it does wonders for the enjoyability of videos.

Okay, the Sesame Street joke is amazing.

Taliesin in this game was on a roll (pun intended), not only for all his nat 20s, but also roleplaying Percy.

Meanwhile I am dating someone I met through D&D but our characters didn't date, they had a huge argument that lead to me realizing I liked them a lot lmao

I believe Percy casting Friends on Anna was the first time he'd used that spell, revealing it as one of his Magic Initiate spell choices alongside Hex. Love how all of them were mostly chosen for role-play reasons. On "Ripley always feels in control", one of the Campaign Wrap-Ups revealed that if they'd never discovered her in the dungeon until they'd deal with the Briarwoods, she would've tried to convince VM she was just a victim of theirs.

Ripley might just be my favourite villain in Critical Role. And there are a lot of good villains, but there's just something out her. Also her fate, is arguably the best. No spoilers.

Personally, making my players frustrated that their characters can't know something as evident as how hurt I just described their friend got clouds understanding and limits fun. Yes I want to encourage cool fun strategy and have intricate combat, but keeping them in the dark about each other will not help them work as a team

On Possession: The one time it worked really great for me wasn't a combat encounter. The Cleric was away from the party, I had them roll and as that, they were possessed. BUT ... I told the player who the Ghost was, that it was lost, didn't know where and just wanted to "hitchhike" the group to civilization without hurting anyone. Problem is they were in the middle of a jungle. So now the Cleric Player got back to the party and played a ghost NPC trying pass as the Cleric while also giving 'subtle' hints that something is wrong. That persisted for about 1,5 Sessions, including a fight where the player just made all kinds of excuses of why they couldn't or wouldn't cast any spells. The group realized something was wrong super fast, but because the Cleric player played the ghost nicer and more welcoming than their actual PC, the group decided it was fine. As a combat encounter. I'm not a fan of it either.

Our Tank (paladin) has a habit of not telling anyone how injured he is. He's essentially like John Cena in that he no sells everything and tells everyone he's fine even if he only has 2hp. We haven't really got a dedicated healer in the party so it doesn't really come up often, but if the players were worried about him then I'd have them roll either insight or medicine against his deception (if he's trying to hide his injuries) and let them decide what to do based on the result. Players have yet to confront the paladin about this yet though so I dunno how it's going to play out yet....

A guide on romance in D&D would save my ass so bad! I dated my DM for a really short amount before seperating again, and my character asked out an NPC in one of the last sessions, so I really want to avoid awkwardness. Great video as always!

Good point about how Ripley always SEEMS in control, and we can do it!

I can really see you getting comfortable and into a rhythm with this series. The last 2 episodes have been really fun.

Had one hell of a spit take at 7:16. I was not prepared for ass balls lmao

It’s so interesting to hear your perspective on possession because I’ve always looooooved it (and similar tropes/techniques like brainwashing or trance states). I think this is in part because I think like a writer even in RPG situations and possession can easily be made dramatic and emotional and is therefore candy to someone like me. But I can totally see how a seasoned DM would be leery of it. Which also makes it interesting that Matt seems to use that mechanic so much! If there’s a place where he’s discussed how he pulls it off, I’d love to see it - hearing about the Yasha/Obann situation in C2 was what got me into Critical Role.

I agree with your final point on possession, its way more interesting to have an npc suffer the possession. You get the dramatic tension, and you don't feel as bad if they don't succeed in saving them. If they do die, youre adding a new objective to the party, vengeance/justice for the npc. Its an old story telling device, but its effective.

I really think people give liam a hard time for him being involved saying he had Main character system but like liam kinda just enjoyed trying things out while some of the other players were just along for the ride. not that they didnt have good character moments but liam was so involved in his own character development and I think constantly comminicated to the DM what he wanted which Ive seen can result in other players feel like they are falling behind because they are more passive in there experience

I love Vax x Keyleth, still to this day my favorite romance that CR has done and such a gut-wrenching tale. I really hope for C3 that REDACTED arent dead. I hope this is all leading up to a Daggerheart exclusive Pantheon where some of the previous characters are deities, and Vax and Keyleth are among those that become gods.

I love these analysis videos! Watching CR can definitely be a learning experience without the analysis. But getting such a good breakdown of exactly what's working and why or why things might feel off, really takes it to the next level. Sometimes you just don't have the vocabulary to explain things and having someone give their perspective helps clarify what you were feeling

I love this channel and especially these breakdowns. Thanks for doing them

The questions about motivations in re: Ripley and Anders I feel like it's just "Yes" XD

Look forward to this every other week.

A nice surprise for a Monday morning

Romance is definitely a session 0 conversation I have been in and seen awkward dnd Romance and seen it go well and end in disaster and kill a game

This is so cool, I watched the first 2 season of TLOVM before coming to the campaign and starting at ep 59, so it's really interesting to see how the cast handled their previous sessions, thank you for the breakdowns, will be watching this)

I do love a good romance subplot! NPC ones do tend to roll a little better with boundaries I think but when you have a romance you can get that ribbing from the rest of the party really hard.

I LOVE your analysis of Ripley as a supervillain. She's my second favorite villain of campaign 1 next to Raishan, and you put to words precisely why. And god, cannot second the PSA about magic items enough. I'll admit I'm a little guilty of the 'dibs' kneejerk reaction, but I reign it in when I notice it, and I don't do it with items I clearly can't use - what would be the point? I remember when we found a wand that grants a recharge of expended spell slots, and literally the first words out of my mouth were our warlock's name...we're all some flavor of spellcaster but clearly who's gonna roll need here lmao

Actually it was Keyleth's brief romance with Kash (Will Friedle) that got the main cast even thinking about romance between them becoming romantically involved with the other characters. I believe this was explained by Liam on an episode of Talks Machina.

Love the videos! I’ve only ever watched the rebroadcast but people are always amazed by how calm and friendly it is. Especially when compared to the original broadcast. If y’all have the time (and don’t tell the rude people about this) you are more than welcome to hangout with us!

In regards to the hoarding magic items player I've actually had the opposite problem where I couldn't give magic items away to the party. One campaign I was playing a Hexblade Warlock and took the smite power. In the first fight I used it I crit with it and got lucky with the rolls doing maximum damage which at the time was more than just about everyone else in the party had done (Not saying their potential max damage was lower, just they hadn't done a hit for that much). I was playing with mainly friends that were newer to D&D and the DM was giving out homebrew items that were his spin on Vestiges of Divergence Matt created. The whole party was just like "Oh this could make you do even more damage take it!" And despite my protests I was being given several of these absurdly strong magic items just further cementing the parties belief I was a damage god. I finally had to suggest to the DM "Maybe make a new rule of in addition to the 3 attuned items restriction you can only have 1 vestiges per person?" The whole situation felt so bizarre because I was so use to people hoarding items that the first few times party members offered me an item I went ok sure thanks til it was like... wait a minute this is too much.

Always good to see a video from this channel drop into my sub box and especially when it’s this series. Another fantastic breakdown, look forward to the next one!

I really appreciate this series, it fills an extremely valuable niche for me. I have a hard time staying engaged during actual plays but I love hearing session summaries because it gets to the juicy bits that inspire me as a DM and give me tools to run my own games. I would probably never have engaged in anything critical roll related if it wasn't for this series if I'm entirely honest, so thank you!

scanlan wanting a gun for himself walked so fearne wanting a gun for her monkey that throws burning poop could run

This was a good one! Great job! That moment of Matt egging on Percy with the bait of his sister while the rest of the party was like Noooo is such peak D&D. They didn’t do the we’re all de rolos tonight thing in the show did they? It’s such a cool moment.

Great video as always!!

I know myself, I know that if I start a romance in RP, I myself would catch feels. Especially as these people are my friends. So my characters 'conveniently' aren't romantically available. Already married, agender, aromantic, etc.

Well I'm finally caught up on these retrospectives. I must say these are a treat to watch, and it's making me want to play tabletops again someday~ I'm only 7 episodes ahead so I'm watching these pretty fresh so it's really cool to get this additional analysis. Plus the comments here are far more constructive than the ones on the official RU-vid channel (I listen on Spotify most days.) Thanks for your hard work, keep em coming!

I have no idea how the chat is still such a mess. Especially compared to the interactions you can have with critters on twitter for example they are all so sweet most of the time

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the twitch chat is the biggest reason i was overjoyed when they started streaming on youtube, i just cannot deal with accidentally catching a glimpse of chat and seeing so much negativity in the twitch chat

I have had a romance between my character and an NPC, but, never an inter-PC romance. I have also had, as a DM, a PC-NPC romance. I think the most fun way to use the ghost possession ability would be out of combat. For example: passing on crucial information; negotiating a deal; perhaps even guiding the party to where the spirit wants them to go.

Love Vaxleth so much

OMG THANK YOU Mike! My cleric suspects that one of our party is possessed, but he has a low INT and the player is purposely playing it up to me. So, as far as that party member is concerned, the spirit is not possessing him, and he's blowing off her concerns (she's a worrywart, though...LOL) I know what I am going to do, and my DM is grinning.

Im curious if a concept similar to concetration checks or con saves for creatures that swallow enemies could be applied to possesion mechanics to soften them up. I might try this in my own games curious what others think.

On sharing magic items, our Storm King's Thunder group found a ring of spell storing. We gave it to the fighter. He can now cast haste on himself, hold concentration, and still have two shield spells. Tiberius had one. Such a waste not giving it to a non-caster

Top level shirt

The time I forget then see and look forward to

Man, if "ass balls" is the delicate way to put it, I'd hate to hear what less restrained people have to say about that subclass. XD

Thank you for the reminder about sharing magic items For some stupid reason, I guess I thought attune-ment would work against them if death or out right theft wasn't part of the shifting of "ownership"

I normally really struggle with romance stuff in games as it's something I have no real idea how to run it, but I have had a moment where two of my players' PCs formed an adorable couple just as the story was coming to an end, and it was a highlight of the campaign for both players. I very much like using a lack of swearing to show how in-control someone is of themselves. It just works for someone like Ripley.

Friday morning chat is best

I'm a dnd romance fiend. I love it man. And honestly I feel like the stolen kiss here wasn't as bad. Marisha and liam are close friends and both characters have had a romance building, so I feel like liam knew what she would be okay with well enough. However, most people don't have this so you should 100% ask first. If you're awkward about asking, especially with strangers, here's my recipe. First start with compliments: "you're awfully good at that" "that's so smart!" "what a good idea" Give items, mechanical and non-mechanical: "i think this magic item would fit you", "i drew a picture for you", "this necklace would look good on you". Sit close and ask questions: if you split the party follow them, "so do you have family?", "why are you on this adventure?" Light friendly touching: hugging, brushing their shoulder, taking their arm When major events happen, look at them, as them, ect. These are all ways to build up a relationship but not to a point where it HAS to be romance. At this point it could still be just a really good friendship. This is where I would ask them what they'd be okay with. Ask them if they would be comfortable with a romantic relationship. If that feels too awkward just ask directly "are you okay if MC kisses YC". Then let them take the lead in inniating.

I do what you said about possession. I tell my players to use whatever they want, but give them the goal of whoever has possessed them.

I'd been playing D&D for decades and had never even considered or heard of anyone having a romance in a D&D game. That's how unusual it was. So groundbreaking. I think Matt did a great job showing the limits of trying to have everyone fight in a room they couldn't even seen fully into from the hallway. You have to make allowances for the terrain otherwise it just gets absurd.

I noticed Vex's threat this time... 😮

I dont share my magic items because theyre often custom made for my pc by the dm, because I tend to make pc's that dont need/use magic items in the first place

Monday Demystified? Neat

I didn't have a session zero in my game, so if there was someone who seemed like they would romance another player in my game, I would end the session before the romance happened and privately ask them, "Do you feel comfortable with your character being romanced." If they say, "Yes," I continue as planned; if they say "No," then I change it to them having a friendship.

I've rolled 7 20's in one session before. 3 of then back to back.

Just finished campaign 2 today!

They way I run spotting an allies health is much the same as you would view an enemy. I go with the Fine/Bloodied/Mortal method. Bloodied being half or below and Mortal with 10hp or less. This helps players know how well their allies are doing and what the PC's would see. Barbarian just shrugged off a hit? They seem fine. Couple of swing later they are bloodied? Time to heal them up. Any time I am a player in a game I do the same. I never tell my allies my hp only what they would see and let them choose from that description.

count sylas von count took me out!! also, i dont know if anyone else has this (very specific) problem, but i started watching during exu/campaign 3, and the fact that the top and bottom table must've switched sides between c1 and c3 is throwing me for a loop every time. i am so used to having top table look (viewer) left to look at matt (conveniently also making their video face his video feed on screen), and having bottom table look right to look at matt. now every time i watch clips from this campaign my spatial reasoning center ties itself in knots. does anyone else experience this??

the person you cast friends on "might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM's discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it." If I remember correctly, she downed percy later on

One thing I will say about CR's impact on the DnD community is that a *lot* of people love the CR romance, and *want* something similar, but they don't know how to play it out without taking them personally, as you said. It's been the biggest cause of issues at all of my tables. I'm team "no romance at my table" at this point, or it needs to be a background element. Like, so background you could pretend it doesn't exist tbh.

ive been having some Tal luck latly but only when i dm curse of strahd 😬 I was kinda the one who made this a thing but we log the crits in our group and last session i rolled 2 nat 20's + 1 nat one, good normal roles right? The one before that it was 5 nat 1's and 7 nat 20's 💀💀💀

"Vax is Smaller Than Three Keyleth" Wonder what this could be about

While this doesn’t fix everything fully, I do think that a *lot* of old kiss-stealing scenes can in part be attributed to “it was a different time.” Consent always has been an important thing, and that excuse has been used to explain some very awful behavior historically. Despite this, if we take a look at the context of the filming, it wouldn’t have been as unheard of at the time. Shock Value affection was part of the romantic zeitgeist. Surprise Kisses were big for adrenaline in a lot of ways, and the media put before us loved that. And unfortunately, discussions of consent just weren’t as thorough and prevalent as they are today. Yes, it was definitely an understood concept, and one that is very important to dramatic performance in particular, but less outlined. I do really hope that there was some boundary discussion behind the scenes in advance, especially given Marisha’s experiences pre-CR, but ultimately: I don’t think anyone meant any harm, I think they all came out of the break with a good understanding of what was going on, and I think that it all played out very well in the end. What I really like is the changes we’ve seen since then. Yes, the cast is more experienced and more primed for these interactions, but there’s also a lot more “can I kiss you?” The buildup is often more outlined, and presumably the casts have a bit more discussion behind the scenes where they think it’s needed. (If I’m not mistaken, this interaction was also cut from LOVM, likely to better maintain continuity in the character relationships, but also potentially to better safely adapt the show to 2023. I also think that it might more comfortably suit Keyleth’s semi-canon demisexuality.) Idk, I’m glad Mike addressed the current situation around springing romance on other players, and I’m even more glad that the cast was able to live with this while still learning from it in the long run.

Roamnce in TTRPGs - I'm more open to it in PbP games, honestly, but that's more 'I don't like playing it' than 'I don't want it at my tables,' I'm fine with other people doing it. In a voice or in person game, the closest I've come to it is having an off screen partner I'm in correspondence with, and I don't think I'd want to go much further than that with a character I'm playing.

Oreo 🥺

Can confirm have seen and personally experienced a lot of the ways romance in DnD can go wrong - from players getting inappropriately pushy with NPCs, two players taking RP a *touch* too far for the table's comfort, and players taking character romance and confusing make-believe for real feelings and projecting those feelings onto their fellow player. The best way to incorporate romance is with the express consent of everyone at the table, and discussing with the other party involved exactly what is okay and not okay, and not going past the boundaries of comfort of everyone at the table.

I generally only like romance between player characters whose players have zero (or as close to zero as one can fathom) chance to be attracted to each other in real life, because I am an antisocial recluse who hasn't fostered a healthy understanding of relationships 😂 That said, I play with someone whose characters pretty much always get interested in someone, and while I was put off by this at first, I don't mind it so much any more because she varies what character she is interested in. It's been my character once, someone else twice, and an NPC twice, and I think that's a great way to go about it. Oh, and I love NPC romances, though in general I want those moments to be quick and not drawn out.

This is not me saying that Liam is a bad player or a "problem player", he's genuinely great, but I actually do think he performs a minor faux pas that others can learn from when he chooses to just initiate the combat with his big damage attack on Professor Anders. It's not a criticism of the character Vax, or of the player's strategic mind. I just believe that it's a small missed opportunity in terms of not picking up the narrative opportunity that the DM was putting down. Why do I believe this? Because what we have in that moment is an expectant standoff where a villain has a blade to the throat of a hero's loved one, waiting to exchange words. That's a trope, specifically a GUNSLINGER trope. It has the potential for a tense scene, an opportunity to speak with the antagonist before combat breaks out, the drama of Percy seeing his sister again whilst simultaneously allowing Matt the chance to exposit some of the stuff he tries to cram into Anders' final words. Matt constructed a situation that even has a unique mechanical D&D opportunity baked in, since Percy has a tropey gunslinger ability that allows him to try and shoot held objects out of peoples' hands. So if Liam had picked up on this cue and gone in less aggressively (even though that means losing out on his nova damage) they could potentially have gotten a great scene out of the characters navigating that hostage scenario, likely culminating in Percy getting an opportunity to try and shoot the knife out of Anders' hand before he slits Cassandra's throat. Doesn't mean that anything is ruined, an appeal of improv storytelling is that things don't always go how a writer might structure them, but another appeal of improv storytelling is when people who improvise together pick up on each others dramatic cues so well that they dunk their alley oops. Improvised moments where your table is so in sync that afterwards you go "that felt like a movie!" and makes viewers go "was that scripted?!" Liam himself has numerous instances throughout the CR campaigns where he successfully pulls off scenes like that, so I hope nobody takes it as anything other than educational analysis when I say that I'd categorize this example as a moment where he failed to see the opportunity. Everyone has those.

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I mean Marriage is a spell in 5e lmao

As with any other D&D video concerning romance I will go back to my defaul answer. No I dont want to deal with it personally, or RP it at the table, but im not going to stop my fellow tablemates from roleplaying it. Love and romance is just between me and my partner, whenever I have one, and trying to be lovey-dovey with someone else even if just for fun makes me feel weird. so please no :P

I have to disagree on the live chat, but it is also biased. The Friday recap crowd are always delightful, at least when I'm looking at it. But perhaps us spending all afternoon watching d&d are of a particular stock

Hehe Hoardy players

Why does cursing needs CW ?

Hey Mike -- would you consider do a short video on the BWF Ashley Johnson situation, and why fans should give Ashley her privacy? (And maybe when we get to live shows, consider warning folks who want to watch the episode if BWF appears at all in the beginning introing the cast...)

Especially in the last few episodes, dealing with the imperialist mindset of the Dawnfather and his followers the chat was terrible to read

Gonna disagree with your take on possession and dominating other characters, paralysis, stunning, and other methods of "taking a player's agency away". So many other games have a "lose a turn" element to them it's impossible to count them. Why should D&D be any different? Do you remove all the Skip cards from your Uno deck? Is the jail on your Monopoly board shut down? Are they any less fun with those elements in there?