Rules Light RPG's Are Doomed 

You can't expect Dungeon World to be relevant on youtube when the whole system is just a core rulebook and that's it. In order for RPGs to have any sort of relevancy on youtube, they require frequent releases. That's why WotC has been shitting out books a la quantity > quality. I have Dungeon World, but I honestly don't care about running it at all, it just doesn't get me excited. No setting books, no adventures, nothing. The book is boring, I don't ever feel like looking at it. Mork Borg is also a weird example, it's a pretty nieche game, the art style isn't for everybody. Necrotic Gnome also got super lazy and didn't bother with more adventures for OSE. They had a huge hype and they're still highly praised in the community, but they then switched their focus onto Dolmenwood and let OSE in a rut for year. Yes Adventure Anthology is ''coming soon'', but you can't just leave a system in a rut for so long. OSE is a HUGE name in the OSR scene, they should have continued creating adventures. By now there should be A TON, not a mesely 5. Most systems are like this, which is why they fail to create youtube hype. WotC have the big bucks, even if their product is pretty shit compared to other RPGs, they are still the closest to a lifestyle brand TTRPGs have.

Much respect. D&D has an alliterative name like Coca-Cola and they were the first. They also have billions of dollars for advertising. It's like Budweiser. Budweiser is the best selling beer in America. But Sam Adams makes BETTER beer and appeals to a more discerning consumer. Mork Borg and OSE are microbrews and microbrew RPG revolution is just beginning. IMHO.

The premise utterly fails when you consider that Mork Borg and OSE have light-years more content than GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. It's just not a rules-light vs rules-heavy problem. It's a D&D vs the world problem, and Pathfinder is D&D.

Indies don't need to "beat" Hasbro to survive and thrive. For me games like ICRPG really cleaned the carburetor on what was needed for a game to shine, and clarified what our goal of time at the table was, and it really is different at every table. I don't think the hobby has ever reflected that reality more than with our current state of the industry. It's great!

I think this goes beyond just the ‘social hierarchy’ when discussing D&D. WotC has gone on record saying “D&D isn’t a TTRPG, it’s a lifestyle brand.” and as much as I hate it, it’s true. Dungeons and Dragons has morphed into something far more than the game we play at our tables as well as still remaining the catch-all term for every Table-Top Roleplaying game. It’s as impressive as it is depressing.

All of the “unsuccessful” games that you mentioned have all reached their kickstarter goals within mere hours of starting the campaigns. What meter are you using to judge success?

Caring about builds and stuff like that is precisely the part I HATE in some RPGs (and also in video games, to some extent, most MMORPGS are hell for me) and this is why I started looking for other systems. I remember that, I was looking for games where you don't have to create a character mechanics for 2 hours, count arrows, distances, money and things like that (it was obvious to me that it can be done in some simple way). The bad thing is that a lot of people are used to this way of thinking about RPG systems, because of video games 😩

Not only do I not think that it's a problem, the TTRPG I'm running not being super popular is great. It means that players don't come to me with a ton of outside expectations. They arrive at my table curious about what is possible instead of having a rote list of expectations and hoops I'm expected to jump. One drawback is that it's harder to advertise your game to new players, but if you have a group that enjoys playing in your games already it's not hard to start a game of an obscure TTRPG. I also talk about it with my friends about the games we are playing to occupy out of game time. I don't need more excuses to slog through social media. Less social media would do me well honestly.

idk, Mörk Borg has an incredibly active community.

Your video demonstrates that O.S.R. isn't suitable for mainstream social media which is great because the people who played the original games back in the day weren't suitable for mainstream society, so it's kinda perfect. O.S.R. is basically some weird Norwegian black metal band while modern RPGs are Blink 182.

In my experience the reason these communities don't talk about news for their ruleslite RPGs isn't because there isn't news about it but because they're busy playing the games with the limited time they have. If they wanted perpetual fomo type stuff then they could play DnD, but Mork Borg and it's expansions sell really well on being the starter kit to a portfolio of original characters and more in depth storytelling with next to no initial time/cash investment. They're not doomed to fail because they fit a niche better than anything else I've run into. If they actually are doomed it's because they're at risk of being purchased by a bigger corporation and homogenized with other less very specific hobby ventures.

4:45 Old School Essentials has no setting Dolmenwood: Allow me to introduce myself (I know it technically not that, but as it uses most of its rules is it pretty close.)

I honestly don't think this is a problem. You can devolve into endless discussions about the philosophy of running rules light RPGs. I for instance made a 15 page discussion of the Condition moves for the villains in Masks and I only scratched the surface of how to create and run great villains.

Do you know Wonder Bread sells the most bread in America. But people are still going down to bakeries to get the special bread. It’s the same thing here. Brand differentiation is a thing. DND is going for some thing a kitchen sink style fantasy and these other games are going for a different style of fantasy. Rules like games are easy to modify. Easy to write things for. And encourage creativity. I think a specific type of person will enjoy these games. That is their market niche. Somebody else in here mentioned it’s kind of like microbrews versus Budweiser. I would agree with that. Nobody drinks the same beer that I do either on my Block I am the only one who buys it.

WotC has created an environment of consumption and brand loyalty around D&D, people buy the products and identify with the game, they invest their time and money and become emotionally attached. A company like Hasbro knows everything about the psychology of consumers, they know how to keep the ball rolling, and how to trap people in their ecosystem. In the end you can't imagine even trying another game, because you've been conditioned to believe every other game will be like D&D: expensive, time consuming and hard to learn all the ins and out of tons of bloated game books you need to know to create that "optimized build". Anyone who has ever played computer games knows that this is how it works, they keep you coming back for more, just because of the "sunk cost fallacy". That's why smaller and "simpler" games will never be able to compete with D&D, it's just a completely different philosophy all together.

I think that's a backwards association. It's not quite that complexity -> social infrastructure -> popularity, but more that popularity -> social infrastructure, and that popularity is dictated by market taste. Market taste so far is defined by the "gamer" demographic that's interested in builds and metas, but I think there's a broader demographic of people that could enter the TTRPG space but aren't interested in that. So the ongoing popularity of rules-heavy games to me is a side effect of the gamer demographic's dominance, and will continue to be true to the extent that that's true. If the rules-light revolution successfully spreads (bottlenecked as it is by the existing demographics introducing new players to the hobby via rules-light systems), then that could change. What would be talked about is storytelling tricks, settings, maybe items and magic systems if generic enough.

Rules light systems are not beginner systems, but systems for people who are so experienced with how they think RPGs should run that they can just freestyle it without worrying if they are messing everything up.

the no settings issue is not really a problem for me atlease, because of the simplicity of the rules you can just pick any campaign from any high fantasy rpg and run it in dw :D

Build games are fun to fidle with, talk about, and easy to make content for, but rules light games are fun to play.

I think one type of content that can work for most rules-light RPGs are character-based build videos, like those that attempt to make Goku or Sora in D&D or Pathfinder. The best part is you don't have to worry about if your Zuko recreation is meta!

I don't think a game needs to be more complicated to have the same dialog that dnd has (expect for rules clarification vids). Usually, a rules light game has a limited number of "build" options. Build options allow players to theory craft character ideas and can interact with the game without actually playing it. Like how magic the gathering players can spend time building a deck. I guess to have the same thing would mean to increase the amount of mix and matching you can do. Let's also not forget that dnd is a huge brand. It's in Walmart and has video games and movies based on the ip. Indy games are far away from that.

Hey, if the min-maxers stick with their video game inspired builds enjoy their rule-bloated systems and stay as far away from the games I want to play, more power to them. We benefit because we don't have to deal with their BS. We'll be fine.

Pretty much nothing will be as popular as DnD or Pathfinder. So what? Popularity is clearly not the same thing as quality. I like Torchbearer which is not rules-light but is not mainstream either. Actually, I don't like rules-light RPGs at all. I want rules. Please, give me rules. That's literally what a game designer is supposed to do. To design rules!

It isn't just rules lite games. If a game is whole in structure, guidance, and content, you don't need external GM advice or 3rd party content. A game like Burning Wheel is complex but whole enough that it doesn't make sense to make content for it unless it's specific to your table.

Obligatory "first" comment. Also, this is insightful and something I've thought about a lot before. Memes about how 5E and other rules medium rpgs are annoying makes more content than a smooth, well designed game. It's kinda weird how that works.

This is deeply flawed logic. OSR communities are extremely active. You say that something like OSE doesn't get an update so there aren't videos about it, but have you seem a channel like Questing Beast? The OSR games are largely compatible so ideas that come out in a new system can be ported to something like OSE. Also, OSE and Mork Borg have tons of new content coming out for them. I don't think OSR will be mainstream anytime soon, but the points in this video are way off the mark for anyone in the scene.

But those of us who don't care about 130 tedious subclasses that we will never play, poorly written fluff, endless playbook and "how to build the ultimate barbarian / monk" vids. We enjoy the elegance and "fuck that shit, let's play" speed of rules light. No more 3 hours resolving half a minute of combat, and wishing you were somewhere else, doing something fun.

Il disagree. The reason why DnD is so popular it really was the first big game and was one of only a handful of games for a long time people could get access toz when it would go to different countries it was often the first game. As far as world building stuff tbh every single person I know who does or ever has played any level of TTRPG they all built their ow. World sometimes would take ideas abd use them but that's it outside of maybe the first coupple of games where everyone is leaning to play. I played 4th ed, 3.5, pathfinder first edition and many more random games often for years at a timeonce to twice a week (when we were tounger and had time) not because they were the best but because its what we had access to . I am now into OSR games and I feel better play ling thrm even alone with no issues. Do the same things we used to do with streamlined (not dumbed down) rules, games now have over complex rules fot no reason. Even when we would all play we would just end up not using many tules and apply or own rules or just use rules from a different part of the books that are similar. I am working on several start up games one for a game called "across a thousand desd planets" its an Amazing game by Blackoatg games very solo and multi player friendlu simple enough vut very deep in what it allows you to do and all the tools and chart's done from cresting worlds, environments, noc, "monsters" hooks and of course can add yourbown. I am making a game to show my girlfriend how yo play to see if she likes it. Going to have pre made monsters, events and a simple enough ship drawn chart (doing desd space themed game) simple to do and deep as you want. Also the fact manybof these games have pretty easy to add other systems in or just add other books in and change stats a bit for same effect if you want to do campaigns woth little prep 🙂

While you are slightly right. Yes, there are more videos on RU-vid about it, but no, that does not measure the popularity of the game. The two you pointed out, D&D and Pathfinder, just happen to be based on the most popular theme, Fantasy, and are the two biggest companies. Plenty of games out there that have simple systems and a ton of lore (L5R comes to mind) but sadly their target audience is smaller because of the setting. Kind of the same reason system-agnostic games are not as popular as ones that have a setting tied to it. If you would like an example of a medium crunch system that was once massive (Still has a decent following but is nowhere near its 90s one) is Vampire. The TSR Marvel Super Heroes was extremely popular and still has an avid following and its has been out of print since the early 1990s.

So the reason popular RPGs are popular is because they're so bad that people prefer to talk about them than to play them. Got it. Jokes aside, if people are talking about lore of a campaign setting it's because that campaign setting is good, independently if the rules it uses are complex or simple. If someone is talking about rules is because the rules suck. No way around it. People talk about two things: What is interesting and what is necessary. And I doubt that people want to talk about math, rules and statistics because they are interesting.

This is honestly something that I feel bad about when I play indie games. Even the communities where the only purpose is to talk about the game there isn't actually that much to talk about.

This is an interesting conundrum, rules light means that there's generally little complexity to discuss. However must a rules light system be low on content? Build videos can be simply how you would interpret certain famous characters in that system. Setting videos could likewise be how you interpret certain properties in those settings. Perhaps in that sense rules light is a blessing since your ability to provide content for a fully realized rules light campaign is MUCH faster than in a rules heavy campaign. Running marvel heroes in powered by the apocalypse. Probably write that ruleset in a couple of days. Writing it for Pathfinder or D&D? Try weeks/months. Play to the strengths of rules light, rules heavy can't compete for speed of content development imo.

I'm pretty sure the main flaw with this argument is that it's a textbook example of "survivorship bias." There's so many how-to videos on this one third party platform. Because 5e pre-written adventures are poorly structured and easy to run badly, and Pathfinder's option bloat makes it easy to make terrible characters. If 80% of community created content for your game is advice on how to fix the problems with your game, you might have a bad game.

D&D has always had and will always have the most stuff. And if that's taught us anything, it's that Quantity, no matter how overwhelming, is NEVER an adequate substitute for Quality. And no matter how popular it is, Monopoly isn't the only game in town. And for plenty of people, the name brand isn't good enough. That's why healthy markets are competitive ones. There will always be room for both big and small, or it's game over, man. Game over.

if this is the definition of doomed, i am more than happy that OSR is "doomed"

Honestly I think having video games like BG3 that included the entirety of said rpg systems does not help a lot, (especially when those games are pretty well) Perhaps making a visual novel on the rules light systems could help but I think most of all people should record and share their games more. Personally I discovered Pbta games like some months ago with masks and finding out about it was almost as difficult as trying to run it 😅

It's funny that you mentioned the time we spend playing TTRPGs compared to the time we don't spend playing TTRPGs. With D&D 3e-5e and PF 1e & 2e, they are hog heaven for theory-crafters and min-maxers. While theory-crafters and min-maxers may not necessarily be focused only on winning, they wouldn't spend the time that they do mastering the game if combat dominance wasn't a significant motivator to them. Not only that, for these kind of players, rules-mastery is a prerequisite to effective theory-crafting and min-maxing, so I'd imagine that using homebrew and Rule Zero would at least present a record-scratch for their playstyle...which is strange because new rules, mechanics, and options get presented with supplemental material from the publishers. These, in turn, get more legitimacy than a GM's homebrew material just because of...reasons? (Yes, the game developers have a better grasp of their own rules and design, but it's not impossible to learn and expand and *wait for it* make shit up just like they do!) All of this, and more, leads to a culture of FOMO within the TTRPG hobby, because if you're playing what the majority of consumerist hobbyists are playing, good like finding a group to play a more flexible, rules-light TTRPG.

Obligatory caveat: people can of course make content for rules light games (like me! Like and subscribe aHA) it’s just that said content won’t have the same draw as like a build or lore video.

there is an classic brazilian RPG that was very popular, it's kinda lite called 3d&T. it was really popular and it got even their own scenario. "Tormenta" used only d6 and inspired on anime, even their D&D like scenario was narrated much more like an anime than a tolkien fantasy, characters where really powerful. and it was built like a videogame somehow. like. it's not a primor of narrative but for begginers was fun that you could just buy abilities, spells etc, don't limit yourself to classes, and since it's not a "narrative" game. people were building characters. choosing abilities, there was some magazines at that time teaching how you could build diferent characters or with new things to choose. There is something really special about this system that I don't seen often. it's easy to learn but it had the "game" vibe of choosing how your character will be optimized, yes. there are a lot of balance flaws but still a cool example of how a game can be rules ligth and still have a cool list of things to choose and build your own character.

The Simplicity also makes them 'die' faster: nothing to sell people. D&D/Pathfinder has way too many choices, and therefore can make (and sell) more choices. DW could sell classes I guess, but yeah... there's nothing there to sell on. Hell, 2nd Ed AD&D ran out of options at one point, and that's why TSR ended up having to sell to WoTC... if your game is self-contained, there's no future market. I like rules-lite exactly for this reason, there's nothing to deal with external to what you need.... but yeah, they die out because the market dries up.

I'll take Mörk Borg over DnD any day of the week. My personal taste. I'd much rathe support companies like Free League and Infinite Black/Creature Creation.

I didn't notice a pattern, you scrolled too fast so I couldn't read anything, its all just blurry!

I started with D&D back in 78. When it turned to garbage in the early to mid 2000s, I quit gaming for a while, then in 2013 discovered Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and I've stuck with it as my main ever since. Superior system to D&D imo. I also run Call of Cthulhu, Mörk Borg, Pirate Borg, Apocalypse Rat, Out of the Shadows, and I'd love to try Troika, Boot Hill (TSR circa 1990), Mausritter (heard it's pretty cool), and Shadowdark, which has been held up to LotFP for comparison. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. D&D has gone from being a ttrpg to an all-consuming brand; that logo is on TONS of non-game related junk that is not, has not and will not make them a profit. WOTC/Hasbro has lost their way. Looking at recent streaming services folding unexpectedly (Cartoon Network, Paramount...)my intuition tells me that they could do the very same. Alright, that's enough incessant rambling.

Everyone said the same thing about pathfinder years ago. These games aren’t there to compete but they have their place.

Pathfinder is not as popular as WotC D&D, just like these other games. And that's ok. They don't have Hasbro demanding a billion dollars behind them. Goid vid tho!

D&D is dying because of Wizards incompetence everyone I know has abandoned it and gone with other rpgs. New D&D sucks.

The current iterations of D&D exist for the same reason fast food restaurants exist. Just because something is prolific doesn’t mean it’s the best (or good). So don’t misinterpret the fact that less fine dining restaurants means they are inferior to fast food - it’s actually just the opposite

I don't buy this premise. One brand being dominant doesn't make independent games not worth supporting. That's like saying indie movies are doomed because the MCU was popular, or that you shouldn't eat at your local restaurant because there's a McDonald's right up the road. Will Mörk Borg ever suppling D&D as the biggest TTRPG? Of course not. But it doesn't have to; it only has to appeal to the people who are looking for that kind of experience at their table.

Rules lite is cheap or free. All the lore and gossip channels are nothing but second screen content. MORE is hardly ever BETTER. Most rules lite content producers aren't sponsor schills. They aren't doomed. WotC and PF content is just padding, without substance.

While it may be that builds and rule-clarifying is a factor, I'm certain that the immense history and legacy of D&D contributes a lot more. You can't fairly compare brand new games like these to a franchise as old and established as D&D. Not only that, but look at how much money a massive corporation like Hasbro has to throw around for marketing, films, video games, Lego, influencers, etc. It's completely ludicrous to contrast an indie rpg with Literally the richest and most powerful and most profitable rpg in history, and come to the conclusion that the reason the latter is more successful is because nobody cares about rules-lite rpgs. Like, you see how silly that is right? We also need to be careful in how we define "success". If we define success as "this game makes more money and gets more views and appears in more popular media" then yeah Of Course the behemoth money-making marketing machine that is the D&D Franchise (not just 1 rpg, not just several rpgs over decades, but a whole Franchise) will win that contest. If we define success relative to each game's audience size and budget and such, you'll find that many smaller and/or rules lite RPGs have been extremely successful, especially recently! Index Card Rpg, Shadowdark, and Dungeon Crawl Classics to name but a few. Game designers are discouraged enough by the nigh monopoly that WotC has on the industry, and this kind of video only makes that worse, especially for younger people who don't know the history of the industry. I would very strongly caution you against making this kind of video lightly, you have a responsibility (if not as content creator than as a fellow RPG fan who wants to see the industry grow and improve) to would-be rpg creators watching your video. You wouldn't want to discourage the kid about to bring forth the next huge shift in the rpg landscape, just from a careless (and unfounded) claim about the impossibility of success for a given genre.

You're conflating 'Popularity' with 'how much people make youtube videos about it'. They ain't the same. And really, is popularity the only thing you're thinking about when looking at a game? Addiitionally, you're ignoring the effect actual plays had on D&D (CR for example). I think you've missed the point, I'm afraid. Gotta say, I disagree with ya...

So if something isn’t going to be the most popular thing, it’s a failure? That’s a colossally flawed premise. How many RU-vid videos a game has about it is also a shit metric for its success. Your video is idiotic clickbait, but hey you got me here and commenting, so good job I guess?

While I 100% agree with you that DnD and Pathfinder has way more material to contribute to an 'out-of-game experience' and the nature of the systems and content releases help with that I feel like the problem with them is self-perpetuating. They're just more popular because they're more popular. I mostly play Call of Cthulhu and there seems to be a pretty good out of game community for that despite being fairly rules light and I think that's more to do with the legacy of the game and the number of people playing it rather than the nature of the system or the company. Also, games like Cyberpunk Red and Shadowrun have pretty in-depth rules systems but they lack the out-of-game communities for them because they're just not as popular. It sucks because as hobbyists if you get into something you find it harder to find other people into it because there's not as much content for it, but at the same time there's not as much content for it because there's not as much content for it.

They are in no way doomed. They're lower cost and lower profit businesses, but still viable. Sure, some youtube kids might need their hands held with a new book and video every week, but there will always be a place for brutal, rules lite games that offer a fresh take on role playing. You thinking that the out of game experience is more important than playing is silly, and will most likely wear off as you get older. Not everyone needs youtube videos to play a game. Actually, i would say that this weird obsession with youtube content is more niche than OSR/Rules lite gaming. Games not reaching the popularity of D&D or Pathfinder is a stupid reason to say "They're doomed."

Click-Bait title. what's in the video is one decent argument why rules lite rpgs won't grow to have userbases like DnD. This is not at all the same as them being "Doomed" - you could maybe say that if they weren't commercially viable. I don't think Free League lost money on Mörk Borg, it's just a smaller game

If someone doesn't play 1e AD&D then they are not qualified to be part of this discussion.

Weird... this is a very one sided player facing argument. The OSR is rich with GM advice and tools l, where i see that lacking in the mainstream rpgs. Rules light give GMs more freedom and tools where mainstream games give all the power to the players. Also, being successful is a subjective idea if one is not a black and white, number goes up capitalist.

I think the premise is flawed hence the analysis is flawed. Indie games aren’t trying to beat Hasbro and for the most part aren’t trying to create one system to be the be the “one” game to rule them all I think Free League is the best example of this , though Morphius does a great job as well (though I’d say they’re more publishers than creators)

I am sorry, but in this video you come across as a 5e noob who consumes fantasy via video games. What was the last fantasy novel you read? You should be spending your time reading fantasy lit when you are not playing, and the quality of your game will elevate. You don't need to read and discuss rulebooks, you don't need an unlimited supply of builds and spells supplied in rule books, and you certainly don't need the the recycled, tired Forbidden Realms lore and old themes like Strahd and the same old monsters that WoTC never ceases to push on us...What you need is an imagination that allows creativity, and a minimalist game structure that models what you need to model and provides a basic structure for running play in some within-game time. The game books provide you the latter, and fantasy literacy provides you the former....By the way, Colville is just as fantasy illiterate as most 5e players, which is why I stopped watching his lame channel. And to be honest, I don't care if the games I like become popular with people who don't read enough. But I do care that people don't read enough, and it makes me sad...for them, and everyone else who has to be in the same world as them.

Well if you say so. I play mostly Morg Borg, OSE, Black Sword Hack. My DnD books just gather dust.

OSE is 99% the same rules and material as Basic or Advanced D&D depending on which set of OSE books you pick up, and was created with the purpose to organize D&D material better than the originals. But then again, you probably have no experience with Basic or Advanced D&D.

Hey who's that at 0:44!

They aren't doomed. They just aren't a viable RU-vid content source.

Lots of content does not mean the game is actually good or enjoyable. Some of us play for enjoyment, not to spend time socializing or absorbing content on social media.

I think 5E and pathfinder players psend more time on "build" and how to fix their broken game videos because they have too. Modern players spend more time crafting characters than actually playing the game and considering their difficulty of their combat is a hoke it doesn't really matter, whereas rules light, Old School or OSR players actually play the game. Why would OSR players need videos for our game that actually works and is fun? There are so many videos for 5E because people spend more time watching videos about 5E then playing it. Also lore videos about settings are not for one particular edition or rules. Also the fact that OSE doesn't have a setting id a feature not a bug your supposed to make your own setting instead of having a company tell you what you are allowed to do. The problem with modern players is they want to follow the corporation instead of think for themselves.

as someone who dident even know other ttrpg systems existed outside of pf2e and 5e I just binged like 20 of your videos and am converted to a dungeon world lover. Literally everything that annoys me about running those games is fixed with dungeon worlds systems and its not perfect but god damn is it closer to what i actually want to play than either 5e or pf2e ever could be. I have spent ungodly amounts of hours trying to homebrew rules for those systems to essentially make it into what dungeon world already is and i did a much worse job so thank you for opening my eyes

Rules lite games have been a boon for RPG soloists.

absolutely ridiculous argument. DnD is more popular because it has a giant like Hasbro backing it. Rules light systems are great cause you actually use your imagination to tell an interesting story, and you are not restricted by the systems and rules of the game. games like DnD translate well to videogames because a video game just needs to recreate the same systems of the game. That's all balder's gate 3 did (and some tweaks for gameplay). Me and my friends sat down to play cyborg, and I was able to get a basic campaign written and started and running with all characters created in under 30 minutes. This was the first time I ever GMed a game before and it was so incredibly simple. Saying rules light games are just doomed to fail cause there not as marketable is ridiculously lame. Stop promoting big IPs and companies like Hasbro when there are perfectly good and cheaper alternatives to the dudgeons and dragons experience. Dude is probably a corporate plant to try and seed doubt in the table top community

From someone that has been trying to move from d20 to PbTA systems... It has being hard, really hard. I'm feeling the mindset is pretty different from those types of systems, and that is super hard to make me (the DM) and my group to get used to it. To context, I'm DMing a My Hero Academia inspired settings. At first we were playing with Mutants and Masterminds, due to being a d20 system similar to DnD, and we decided to move to Masks: A New Generation due to MnM combat taking an eternity to end, often making no sense of its on rules due to how complicated super hero powers can be, and essentially my group wanting to roleplay more and do more stuff (be less restricted by the system). ... I was about to give examples that things that bother me in PbTA but, I'm giving up to write down my frustrations. Maybe the system is just not for me

People need to start playing other ttrpgs besides D&D and Pathfinder. There are many other and much better games than the worn out mainstream ttrpgs everyone wants to play. People need to stop making all this crappy 5e content and start using the ttrpgs already available for their games.

I've been gravitating towards more rules lite OSR games mainly because the characters aren't all but unkillable superheroes in renfair cosplay. Games just aren't that exciting to play when your biggest fear is messing up your characters build instead of the adventure itself. All the "Ultimate Build" videos/articles about nearly every class in 5th ed and PF2 have pretty much soured me on both of them. Plus, as the GM you'll probably never have to worry about a player showing up to the game with a super long and detailed backstory, especially after their first character dies to a goblin spear to the face. Starting characters shouldn't have a background that can't be summed up in 2-4 sentences, which makes them very easy to tweak when someone has to roll up yet another new character.

I play rules light because I’m an adult with a busy adult life and I think that may be the majority of rules lite players. I do think you’re correct for popularity

Role-playing games should be about role-playing. Too many numbers and you're not playing as a character anymore, you're playing as a bunch of numbers with a name.

This is actually a fun video, crunchier games with bigger rule books do make for more content to look into when out of a game session... which is why my ttrpg to watch list is full of videos I'm never going to complete because I'm constantly adding to it. On the otherhand I can crack open Mork Borg and Solitary Defilement and have a fantastically painful evening when my friends can't play with me. I'm also going to start using Mork Borg as a backdoor strategy to get friends to try Forbidden Psalm and into Morderheim and other skirmish games. Well that was a little long winded but TLDR, big games do what I want them to do for me, little games do what I want them to do for me and I'm always a winner by setting expectations. Also great channel take my sub and thumbs up.

Hey! I saw my video!

Speaking as a D&D-obsessed forever DM in college, I've overnight fallen in love with Mork Borg and Cy_Borg because the classes, world, and gameplay/adventure opportunity coupled with the affordability of it is absolutely amazing. Don't get me wrong I still love D&D, but wow the lighter rpg's are so much more liberating as a DM.

Tbh I find it more fun to talk about the game session/campaign you just had with your friends, then some game mechanics.

I mean, one can explain Rules Light / OSR in just one phrase. "It's about DIY." ... That's it, thanks for watching, thanks for reading, like & subscribe, press the bell thing, leave a comment. PS. Yea, that's truly "it", the reason, the difference, and all the "why's". Big major TTRPG are built by big major companies expecting you to pay $50 for a 400 page rulebook, and keep buying whole lot of expansions and DLCs, $10 each, at least once a year. The next similar thing is, I don't know, an IPhone. A Macbook. The Balanciaga or Dolce & Gabana. The "THINGS", to buy, to review, to analyze, to criticize, to react to. Serious business. DIY? No one cares how you painted your t-shirt or built your PC. The only people who might care is your small local community. And that's it. You get freedom of art and self-expression, a chance to have it your own way, to realize your own unique vision... in a price of no one giving a flying duck about it. Big TTRPG is a piss-drink you get in a pub. And you can settle not just one video, whole RU-vid career, on how piss in local/global pubs suck, and why it matters, and how it can be fixed, yata-yata. More talk + more overthinking = more content. Rules Light / OSR? It's your own crafted "brand", that is perfectly suited for your own taste, and taste of your buds. The world may go duck itself, while you and your mates enjoy the brew. This experience is not to share, not to explain or brag about. It's there to live it, and to feel it with your best ones.

Are you a shill? Sound like a shill

Oh, god where to start here. D7D as well as pathfinder are basically two sides of the same coin. And as such both are thought of as either the ONLY RPG, or the only alternative to the only rpg. If it were just rules like can’t build the community what about games like Runequest, or Whfrpg, or Zweihandr, each as fleshed out as d&d or Pathfinder, but also not as popular. Quite honestly most D&D/Pathfinder players are too afraid to branch out which is reinforced by videos like this. I think of it as the person who loves Taco Bell, because it’s different than any burger joint but woul refuse to go to some authentic mom and pop Mexican place because that is just too weird for them. And as the only games most people have heard of they will have a more likely player base than the unknowns. This is also true in miniature war games, everyone knows Warhammer 40k, but less people actively play infinity, Kings of War Bolt Action etc.. the only mini.game to make traction were swing and Star Wars legion, mostly due to the power of that IP.

I'm gonna be honest. I don't like D&D because it cannot pick a lane. Warhammer picked a lane with each faction and release, and each universe, and stuck mostly to it. D&D used to have this feel to me in the retro art and such that made it very cool. That is gone now. I am not inspired by D&D art, monsters, or much else. Sure there are cool bits and bobs here and there but it just feels like "fantasy setting". Maybe that is because of how the game has become popular, but I believe it comes down to the fact monsters do not feel like part of the same universe to me, etc. MÖRK BORG is a simple, small book but it fits in such an amount flavour and evocative imagery it makes D&D seem like a slice of hardtack compared a feast. MÖRK BORG rules are really simple but that's the point. D&D gets so tedious, writing down what each little spell does and whatever else and then doing multiple rolls for turns. I prefer the crunchy, punchy, brutal simplicity that lets the DM also have fun. This is also why there is so much free fan made material for the setting. It's so easy to do and it all fits well with the setting's tone. I guess that one thing I love is simple, to the point games. I detest optimization, I am not math minded, I hate searching for tons and tons of tiny little stats. I prefer flavour, and this is what I think D&D gas lost. D&D lost its flavour in favour of rules. MÖRK BORG gets rid of the rules for viceral, dripping bloody flavour. I don't like discussing builds, I like discussing crazy mini ideas and what ceazy monsters I could use. Or how damned I want people to be

when everyone's conditioned to homebrew everything anyway - then the only reason to buy an RPG is to get a set of rules to go alongside the setting rolling around in your own head. So rules light games that are nearly entirely fluff, with no substantial crunch, have not a leg to stand on. ...This video, is not making that argument though.

I mean the open 3rd party license kinda makes Mork Borg alive though, theres a rich community making expansions, items, sharing lore and dungeons and quests, it kind of owns, theres always something fresh going around

It's like indie rock. Indie devs make games for the love, fans know that, they grow in indie circles and eventually sell out as fast as possible to work on D&D. Haha. For what its worth I play everything but that multicolored hair reddit darling who worked on DW sold out asap. When he was cancelled, I danced a jig. DW is mid.

Also, I use ultra-lite systems a lot…..with never a problem/issue and there’s zero need to discuss, long-winded about RISUS or a clone of original FF rpg (Spellzard!)….because they are so super easy and so fun all over for everyone (except for the curmudgeon who refuses to have fun) that discussions are not present….. So….yeah……not many videos. Shock of shocks! Sorry we’re having fun and not making YT vids, ya’ll. 🤷‍♂️😂

Respectfully, if you/anyone imagines there is little to nothing to explore and discuss deeply within the rules of OD&D, B/X and OSE, etc, then you’ve NEVER spent any time whatsoever at forums that discuss them (such as Dragonsfoot or ODD74). You (whomever is reading) will be surprised….but also, very well elucidated! Cheers, everyone!

rules light games are more open to the narrative aspect instead of min-maxing and rules lawyering. Dont have the rules for it? homebrew it? in the end of the day its the preference, some people pretty much prefer to have less rules but more narrative and fun moments than having too many (bloated) rules set that takes away the fun and ends up bickering on whether i can Opportunity Attack flying creatures and you know what i mean.

People will make more videos on the rules light RPG's, it will just take time. A large amount of Dungeons and Dragons 5e material on RU-vid is the same stuff.

why is content a measure of success. I have never wanted to run a prewritten adventure, I like making stuff up and my games are just as successful as any DnD game. the framing of more consumption is more better is brainrot.

So, that gives us the the possibility of building a rules-median ruleset with mechanics people are used to from TTRPGS? So, that means a D&D 3/3.5 focus, or something like a pared-down GURPS, like SPECIAL? Reinvent one of those in a way that feels good, and you'll be sorted, I guess?

Nah you're just using a measurement that only shows games preferred by people with a lot of spare capacity, who want RP to be an outlet for developing mastery, be a time-consuming primary hobby, etc. People like me who have little capacity to spare for hobbies and want to get the most fun out of our time and effort prefer rules light games. We have no interest in spending our lives outside of the session earning an online degree in how to make bad, overcomplicated games work. That's not a plus, that's a chore. Problem is, the hobby is largely geared towards the former group, who will engage for endless hours and spend endless money, and deters people who won't commit their lives to the hobby but want the time they do have for it to give really high value.

Your argument for rule light vs D&D, it's the same reason why i don't read marvel and DC comics. Many nerd rages or arguments about what heroes is the best is boring to death. I don't play RPG's because people talk about it, i play them because they are fun and turns out D&D is a boring setting with boring rules owned by a terrible company. So i don't own anything D&D, but i do own multiple other RPG (like Mork Borg). And if people you play with aren't D&D ultra fans, you can play those games fairly easily.

I like that you’re making an argument but I couldn’t disagree more. I think they are two completely different markets. And, unfortunately, most people interested in RPGs are more likely to be interested in RPGs that don’t require the commitment of time/$$ that the long form RPGs require. Not that you can’t have overlap but there are much fewer barriers of entry to the RL systems. Having the ease of entry of RL but the ability to seamlessly expand to LF would be a happy medium. Thank you for your thought-provoking video tho.

While I like your idea, I think either Mage game really runs counter to that idea. Like I have been intimidated by Mage since the 90s and while watching the few videos out there helps, I'm still intimidated by it. If there were a lot more how to run mage and come up with story ideas that are actually interesting to the players etc then maybe people would run more of it. Right now its mostly rules and lore videos and honestly those aren't why people are intimidated by it.

Some of us play Hackmaster 5E which makes D&D5E look like OSE. Never heard of Hackmaster 5E? Correct, because even though it's more complex than Pathfinder 1E, and has more potential builds and discussions of potential builds out of the box, it's not more popular. Hackmaster 5E is a marriage of AD&D2E, D&D3E, and GURPS. I also fully disagree with the premise that GMing one is GMing all when it comes to RPGs. Most RPGs GM very differently from one another. If you DM OSE like 5E you're going to have a bad time or your players are going to have a bad time, because both systems reward completely different things in spite of both being ostensibly "Dungeons & Dragons". It gets worse if you step outside of "ostensibly the same". That all being said, the minimalist movement is insane for the reason you specified. There's not enough game system available in minimalist games to create fans of said games in any meaningful way. They are not complex enough to have a flavor or mechanical identity of their own. Explanation: I know several who are very happy with AD&D1E, have been since 1979, and will play AD&D1E exclusively until they day they die. Nobody can or will say the same of Mork Borg or any random PBTA distro or the like. They are "popcorn" games, not "full meal" games. That's why minimalist games will never even reach any permanent position in the RPG hierarchy. In 5 years nobody who currently loves Mork Borg will be playing it. They will be on to some other popcorn game trying to fill a void that popcorn can't fill. I know, I've been there. Maybe it'll be Mork Borg II, maybe not. But it won't be Mork Borg. And if so they won't have exclusively played it for that entire time. They are not really fans. To make my point: how many people are still playing or even talking about Five Torches Deep? The answer is practically nobody. Dogs in the Vineyard? Fudge? Ghostbusters? I could make older and older examples all day. So that part of the video I agree with wholeheartedly. Nobody even talks about Over the Edge 2E, and I consider that the absolute pinnacle of minimalist RPG gaming. It came out in 1992 and revised in 1997 and I haven't seen a better minimalist RPG since. It birthed the entire Forge movement and is handily a better game than anything that site ever came up with. I own every book that was produced for it. Cherish it for one shots, but recognize that it's a curio, a session or two, not a mainstay game. I would never run a 2+ year campaign of OtE. Because it doesn't have staying power. And I _love_ that game. But I don't/won't try to make it something it isn't because I know it will disappoint me.

I think the explosion in D&D popularity world wide happened somewhere in the middle of campaign one of Critical Role, lets say 6-7 years ago. A huge amount of DMs ( including myself) have been playing DnD for the last 5-6 years and at some point ( doesn't matter sooner or later) you start checking out other systems and your brain explodes. You start to realize that actually DnD has A LOT of things that you just accepted but are plainly bad and many other systems are way way way better. I am at a point that I no longer want to play DnD because I have seen some much better systems and I know my players really don't care if they play in Baldur's Gate or some other random town as they are not so much into the lore like for example Warhammer 40k players. I really like the games that Free League Publishing creating and also many others who are finding their own place under the sun. I am not saying there will be a boom in Morg Borg players worldwide but in 5 to 10 years time D&D will no longer be so dominant at all.

if your argument stands, then i would imagine Lancer being more of a household name so to speak, and while i think it is notable in the RPG underground, i don't see it breaking out anytime soon. maybe i'm mistaken, maybe there's something else holding Lancer back, but it is a game that is tactically deep, with a lot of character customization options, and deep lore(all of it available for free, even). the videos i found when i looked up Lancer RPG included 2 lore videos, 3 reviews, and a "class guide" to the goblin mech.

I think we have very different ideas of what success is. I don’t think this aged very well in a way. Knave, ShadowDark, Dolmenwood, Forbidden Lands, The one ring 2e, dragon bane DCC and many others have done QUITE well. Do they sell as much as 5e? No, but my favorite breweries and restaurants don’t sell like Budweiser and McDonalds…that’s what 5e is, it’s bloated, popular, and poorly made with little quality. Also, there is a ton of out of game content for indie,folk,and other rules light games. Your videos are done really well but but I really don’t think think you’re very familiar with the ttrpg scene outside the 5e bubble.

So what I’m hearing is WOTC D&D is more about RU-vid theory crafting, selling table unfriendly charge by the word hardbacks and actual plays, than actual… play. No thanks. Modern D&D is so untethered from its adventuring game roots and so over “consumed” as to be a huge net negative to the actual pursuit of adventure.

I feel like this video is more about how easy it is to make content for certain RPGS instead of a game's longevity