I disagree with the part where you have to tell your “brawl-built character” that the rules are suspended here, because that is one entire area that this player wants to be good at and experience their fantasy, and if we’re just telling them to suspend that and put them on an equal playing field with everyone else, then we’re robbing them of that power fantasy
If they built a "brawler" character, they're already getting the power fantasy of beating enemies to death with their bare hands in actual combat. If that one player gets an advantage in a tavern brawl where everyone else's character perks are ignored because "this is a brawl not a combat", well then that's not giving a player their power fantasy, that's either favoritism or gaming the system. At that point every other player is justified in pointing out how this feat or that feature of theirs gives them an edge too and now you're completely defeating the point of a simple brawl that's not supposed to be as involved as a life and death combat and you may as well just run a standard combat and say all damage is non-lethal rather than have a separate streamlined "for fun" mechanic that shines a spotlight on only one player ever.
@@justinsinke2088 You make good points, and I totally appreciate this system as a streamlined 'funsies' concept, but... A player spent a whole feat to be a literal "Tavern Brawler". You say say that is is favouritism to give them an edge, but the Pole-Arm Master, Sharpshooter, and the Magic Initiate are being favoured round after round every single encounter. In the very few intermittent non-lethal scraps that come up, can't you give the Brawler the tiniest edge? edited for spelling
@@dutch6857 Hey, I agree in some ways. However, as a dm I would use this system for non lethal brawls. The brawler will just have to tough it out with the other players.
@@archersfriend5900 Fair enough, and that would negate (or at least lower) the chance of the monk, the bard, whoever also asking for special consideration
I think non-lethal combat is underused in general. It's all over the place in movies and books. Think of how many murder hobos wouldn't be murder hobos if the GM (or the system) would allow non-lethal combat.
There are often no consequences for murder hoboing. Start encouraging your murder hobos to think twice about killing everyone and everything by ruining their rep with NPCs being uncooperative or downright hostile, warrants for arrest by the authorities, and even vengeful monsters, e.g. Grog One Eye the orc captain that the PCs killed has an even bigger meaner brother, Blog the Heart Eater, an orc War Chieftain, who is not happy with the PCs.
I literally don't know a single system that disallows non-lethal combat, not one, nor have I ever encountered a GM that wouldn't allow it when reasonable. (claiming you're casting a fireball or finger of death as a non-lethal attack is not reasonable, especially when magic has many purpose built non-lethal options) (EDIT: claiming to do non-lethal attacks with a weapon when all of your descriptions have you cutting/stabbing them also is not reasonable by the way)
Here is my idea for a tavern brawl or friendly dustup: It is D & D specific; sorry. 1D20+STR+Con to set Brawl Points (BP) just before punches start getting traded 1D20+CON to set Roll with the Punches Points (RP) just before punches start getting traded 1D20+STR+DEX to attack if attack is greater than RP the hit connects if attack is less than or equal to RP hit misses -- Any one hit loses 2 BP -- Missing costs 1 BP -- A Crit (NAT 20) is 3 BP -- Hitting with an improvised weapon does 3BP for a normal hit and 4BP on a crit (NAT20) and costs 2 BP on a miss -- Any one reduced to 0 BP is rendered unconscious or exhausted and is out of the fight -- For "roll for everything" enthusiasts, when some one reaches 0 BP roll a percentile. On an even score they are rendered unconscious and on an odd score they are rendered exhausted. -- However we roll play it, reaching 0 BP means that person is unable to participate further in the brawl
Definitely needs a little more tweaking but it's a good jumping off point. A monk with no strength should certainly be able to use Dex. Them and a 20 STR barbarian/fighter should be able to do a significant amount more "damage"/ AC reduction than the rogue who lands a blow. Then again, it's just a brawl.
@@mapagano it just feels like characters who have those abilities should be able to shine in that situation. With the RAW of this system, It would be like Jackie chan losing his unarmed skill, footwork and improvised weapon skills and being forced to resort to sloppy haymakers because he is arbitrarily not in a real fight. If a dm didn't add bonuses for characters with unarmed strike, martial arts or the tavern brawler feat, I'd feel like a chump for even trying to play my character.
Great suggestions. I think I’d allow spells though for casters but keep them limited to cantrips like minor illusion, prestidigitation, thaumaturgy, shape water, mage hand etc..Why shouldn’t a caster be able to sling a beer flagon with a mage hand or cause beer to go solid with shape water as they are fighting. Adds even more flavor to the brawl. Thanks for getting the thoughts churning on this idea Guy.
i think this is one of the first times i disagree with you :P i don't like mini games and "changing" the set of rules that much. and my players would hate that the lvl 20 barbarian or the lvl 1 wizard are almost the same. What i do is to solve it as "normal" combat or a "skill challenge" depending on the situation.
Very cool, although i would say that a player who envisioned a bare-knuckle bruiser character and invested resources into that build should get definite advantages in what should be their sweet spot. Extra bash before they go down? Extra attack or damage done? I dunno, but something.
I was thinking two things. 1. They to avoid the first attack that would otherwise hit, and 2. They can make a CON save to possibly not fall unconscious on the last hit. DC 13 or something, once per brawl.
@@mapagano Both of those sound really good, but thinking about it getting an extra effect on their attack feels more like the badass that they burned a feat to become. (And now, overthinking it, let the player choose! "OK, you're in a brawl. You can pick 'right-cross', 'jab-jab-jab', or 'bob-and-weave'. Only one, and you can only use it once") edited for parentheses
@@dutch6857 Would it be enough to let those players get a 'crit' if they beat their target's AC by 5? So the hit counts for -2 AC instead of -1? Or let those with multiattack just straight up get 2 attacks?
I don't like that everyone is reduced to a standard character so your character doesn't matter. Oh your bigger stronger and better to fight that everyone else... Doesn't matter!
On casting spells: All systems I know of allow for interruption of spellcasting. "Just as you raise your hand and begin mumbling the incantations you feel a hand tightening on your throat as you hear a deep voice growling: 'no magic - this is an honest bar fight'" Also how many braws with the application of magic do you think it would take until the landlord has a magic dampening field installed?
Lv20 Variant Human - Fighter "Farmer" Feats: Tavern Brawler Dual Wielder Sentinel Mage Slayer Polarm Master Telekinetic The Mimic: "The Farmer has entered the brawl! Prepare for a free for all! Winners get a free meal and drink on us for the day!" The Party of Players: "What can the Fighter Farmer do?" The Farmer: "I summon Cows from the depths of the Nine Hells." Tavern Manager: "This can only end well... Try to not harm anyone, Adventures." DM: "Roll for initiative..."
**feel free to steal and let me know any changes you made!** TL;DNR: I’m going to borrow the 6-hits and you’re done rule in a St. patty’s themed one-shot as told by flashbacks that the party has to fill the watch in on as they recount the game while playing it and making it up as they go. Every year I like to run a handful of holiday themed games. I shamelessly ripped Critical Role’s The Night Before Critmas last year, changing a few rules such as dwarves instead of elves run the shop and the party are actually one-shot level 13 adventurers who are snowed in at a tavern when a dwarf shows up with Santa’s sleigh and begs them all to help. This year, I’ll be running an American-heroes themed 4th of July game, a Halloween game and now, thanks to this channel, I’ve found my third game: a St. Patrick’s day game where in the party will be partaking in a whole tavern-wide brawl but the trick will be that it’s told from cut-to’s of the watch interrogating the party and flash back to the party in the middle of a fight. Think almost like The Boondocks Saints where everything has already happened and I’m throwing curve balls at the players like, “ok, so how EXACTLY did the mantle on the fireplace crack? Or, “who was it that ruined the chandeliers,” or even “what happened with all the hair over the kitchen?” Anything goes, but this way, I offer them constraints that they will turn into set dressing. Again, this is my idea that I’ve been working on so I ask that you please use it to the best of your ability and if it goes well, I dunno, maybe just make a comment on here? Say, “oh that sucked, don’t do it,” or “that was great, but make sure this happens?” Best of gaming everyone!
I like the idea of making a mechanical and legal difference between brawling and attempted murder. I can see a world in which all, or most, taverns are under the protection of a deity of boozing and brawling. As a result, no one can fail Death Saves while on the premises. This would make saying, "Let's take this outside!" be a real escalation in an argument. Maybe there is a one drink minimum to get the protective effect of the tavern's dweomer. I assume that the tavern-owner would know "Mending" to fix the damage to fixtures and fittings; maybe with a charge to everyone involved in the brawl. Maybe large brawls could be treated as an environmental effect; with the PCs making appropriate saving throws to stay on their feet for a random number of turns (1d6?)
I try and put comedy into mine. I took a reference from 'Felix & Gotrek' Warhammer Novel and when my friend who was playing a bard tried picking up a table, the NPC said ' This is why they are nailed down to stop bar fights' before launching him through the frontdoor lol.
One time the party had a gteat idea to spar to kill some time. Rules were no damage magic allowed, only blunt weapons or fists, and everybody had proficiency + constitution modifier number of hits, minimum of one, they could take, before they fall on their ass and the sparing is done. Kicks and punches were fair, proficiencies with improvised weapons and staff/net as well, etc. No damage, just a simple yes or no for the hit. Buff magic, invisibility advantage/disadvantage, that kind of thing. I loved the whole thing
Nice, something worth stealing for my games. Now to do a bit of conversion to Old-School (i.e. Basic, 1E D&D and clones thereof) games, as there are no proficiencies (well, no official ones, Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures be damned).
I really like this a lot. One thing confuses me, however. If characters with brawler bonuses don’t get them here, in what situations do their brawling skills apply?
I would amend the props part just a bit, make throwing glasses, coins and such as a regular ranged attack in the brawl rules. So those less strong characters can get some hits in while staying out of the pile. I don't think a skinny wizard is so keen to get in the thick of a brawl.
saying mages can't perform lil tricks and brawlers in combat not being able to shine extra hard in tavern brawls kinda has a ''no dm'' vibe to it. as a mage what is super duper interesting in a brawl setting? using clever magic tricks or making chairs fly with magic! if you're brawny as hell what do you want your character to do? take hits like a champ or punch hard etc. i think these are good baselines but i feel like it needs some extra expression in it!
Knockouts should be connected to constitution score and there should be a dice roll to see if they hit their head on the way DOWN. In real life, many people die by accident not from the knockout punch but from the curbside they hit their head on on the way down.
So this reminds me of Campaign 1 of Critical Role. When Grog fought in the Crucible, twice, and they did attack and damage. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Everyone was engaged and the setting was amazing. I feel like that is a lot to expect though because they are actors and they are GREAT at those types of things. I think a modified version is perfect for the average table. If I tried to do that for my Ghosts of Saltmarsh group, they would probably get bored because two of them are wives of the men who want to play🤣
Are you having trouble including them in the game? Generally if people stay at the table they *do* want to play, not just be begrudgingly given a seat because their partner is there. What sort of game are you playing? Perhaps us lot in the comments could help with ideas to get them more involved in your campaign?
@@skinder672 Oh man I appreciate the help but I think this situation is a little different than a normal table group. Right now we play maybe once a quarter. I run the game for my wife and brother and sister in law. "S", we'll call him, my B.I.L is super excited for the game, the ladies are just their for support. Because of that they tend to not follow along that well, interrupt quite often, and tease and poke at me while I run the game. S is very attentive and follows along well, he helps keep the game going. The trouble is getting the ladies to buy into anything deeper than just shiny things are winning a fight. Other than that they get pretty bored pretty quickly. So, if there's advice for that I am all ears lol.
@@ElwoodGaming sounds like an awkward situation. Have you tried giving them a story intensive moment focused mainly on their characters? I know I am always suckered in by a good hero moment
@@skinder672 I mean I have tried lol. So they were fighting a night hag and S got plane shifted to the plane of air. The ladies ran back to their, at the time, benefactor to ask for help. Seeing as how none of them know anything about D&D lore and they have no back stories I came up with a way to get S back on his own accord, if he wanted. He was approached by a archiloth from a powerful demon and could be plane shifted back to the group if he took on a debt of souls. S and I did this entire deal by ourselves while the ladies weren't around. The next time we played Sis in law successfully noticed a new tattoo on S hand. So she acted exactly how she would in real life and badgered him until he told her the whole story...not acting like her character would at all, since there is no backstory to act on anyway...so thats how that went lol😅
@@ElwoodGaming oh, that sounds like it could have been an excellent character development opportunity, I'm sorry they didn't realise and take it! I look forward to reading other people's ideas to help though, and hearing how your next session goes. One thing I did to try and engage a player who was not super attentive (for neurodivergence reasons) was give them a minor nemesis. I had a con artist trick them into a mission that got them all arrested after they made off with the loot, and then had them show up as a recurring NPC generally causing mischief for them and slipping away just before being caught. After a few run ins I let them capture them, then used that NPC to open up my next story event, which was handy because the party finished up a scenario quicker than I anticipated. I used the Bentaven the Bard series as my jumping off point, for the con artist.
Seems like a fun system, but I'd be worried that it might be a little lackluster for the non martial characters, who aren't as good with physical attacks and will start with a lower AC.
What about the idea that everyone gets 1 endurance point per 10 hp rounded up + 1. So at minimum a player has 2 endurance of they have less than 10 hp. They take hits just as you described and reduce AC too. So the Barb with 55 hp has 7 endurance and can take more hits than the wizard who only has 22 hp and so can take 4 hits.
I love this idea. Similar to how Shadow Runners or Cyberpunk had “soak” damage, that your armor eats XX points up to your modifier before it starts taking effect. Maybe the BARBAR has 1 “soak” or endurance point per con mod or 10 HP that stacks on top of their basic 6?
Made me think of a system I wanna try. Characters in the Brawl get a Brawlyness die = d20,d12,d8,d6,d4. GM describes the scene and basically forcing roll offs throwing dice against each other. Example: The barbarian (d20) gets approached by 2 strong sailors armed with chairs (2d12). They roll off 14 vs. 6+9=15. The barbarian takes one out while he gets hit by the chair of the other and looses 1 brawl hp.
I had a tavern brawl in a campaign, but did not use this (because I did not know about it). The best part was the wizard using mage hand to throw ale and hot stew into the faces of NPC combatants around the room.
i really prefer the FantasyCraft version of handling this situation where everyone does Subdual damage (unless you have the feat Martial Arts). You deliver a 1D4+Strength mod in Subdual damage. Every time you suffer Subdual damage, make a Fort Save (DC 10 + half damage suffered), success means you keep accumulating Subdual damage but Failure means you take a level of Fatigue with your Subdual damage counter reset to zero. You can only take 4 levels of Fatigue with a 5th suffered rendering you unconscious. Each level of Fatigued renders a cumulative -2 to Strength & Dexterity, -5 feet of movement so 3 levels of Fatigue gives your character a -6 to Strength & Dexterity and -15 feet of movement. ... If Drunk, then at the beginning of each round, roll 1D8 and use the standard deviation chart to see where the character randomly repositions themselves ... the Martial Arts feat in FantasyCraft means unarmed damage is lethal but can be changed to Subdual with a -4 to hit someone
Not really into this rule set ignoring certain things. Monks automatically have a hand-to-hand advantage, and a Battle Master should be able utilize their maneuvers even in hand-to-hand, especially since hand-to-hand is now fighting style for any warrior class. Not allowing Tavern Brawler to be something as well is just disrespectful of people building up characters for situations like this. Now having a different amount of damage for such a situation is a good idea, but a guy punching someone in plate armor would fracture his hand. If someone uses a broken bottle its now a lethal situation...any time in fight an object is used its now combat.
I believe he's going for a more minigame/lighthearted style. And he's pieced it together from a book that maybe doesn't have something similar to Tavern Brawler or Monks. I see what you mean though, but I don't think he's going for the Chuck Norris style Monk fights. And that's the beauty of these types of videos, they give you ideas that make you wanna come up with your own style. (Broken bottles would be lethal, though it was just an example)
Party consisted of 3 dwarf siblings Eldest dwarf warrior Middle child dwarf bard Youngest (myself) dwarf druid We went to the bar to get hammered after successfully completing a dungeon from the company of "gnomes that build and move dungeons where you're not looking when you're not seeing" went there invited a lonely mage to drink with us then heard people discussing i jumped to the table, screamed bar brawl then jump to the nearest person, after a few minutes of brawling someone threw a bottle of wine to my head and the mage had enough making us all levitate while i was trying to get to the dude who threw perfectly good wine at me then comes the law while we where floating said I'm going to get outside then back in i want you all sitted and silent ok?
My 2c - If your players are designing tavern-brawly type characters, they should absolutely be at some sort of advantage when a brawl kicks in. Nothing more frustrating as a player than to design an archetype character with a specific purpose and then fail the one or two times that situation comes up. As a GM your ultimate goal is the players have fun.
Great reference to a nice system! I also found that the brancalonia system is a but cumbersome in general, but it can be fun if whittled down a bit. For those who are curious about brancalonia, I've run a few sessions here in Italy and it's generally fun... Although I don't know how much fun would it be for non Italian speakers... It's an Italian setting for picaresque adventures a là "Brancaleone". It reflects our dialects and campanilistic rivalries, set in a fantastic, more than fantasy, setting.
This is interesting. I am starting a new group with some old and some new members. I plan fully to have them in a tavern, explain the setting and the patrons, and then end the description with, "Everyone roll initiative".... This information could make it interesting
I like the idea that as long as you don't use spells or actual weapons you suffer fewer consequences than if you do. Less excited for implementing an entire subsystem for a specific combat edge case that locks out all the cool things your character can do.
I have a question. If "to hit" is proficiency + str mod for the PCs, then how is the mob "to hit" calculated? The mob will consist of average joes, just regular people, not heroes. What stats do I roll for the mob's chance to hit the PCs?
I have a slight beef with you, Guy, on the idea of brawly characters not utilizing their "brawliness" in a brawl of this kind. I understand it's a different system essentially, but you have to reward players for the XP they spent to make themselves a bare knuckle fightin' machine if that's the way they did it. Why can't they use those skills in a bigger brawl? That makes no sense. I don't care how many people are involved, the guy trained in unarmed combat is going to have a leg up on the competition, and that should be represented somehow. I'd feel incredibly cheated if I were that player and you told me otherwise.
This has been really helpful. I have a session tomorrow and my players, on Fate Core, have not yet sent me their full char sheets. So , as I intended to prepare sth based on their backstories and interests, I was getting anxious on what would befit them. This is great; it needs no combat stats, no big backstories, but it still has room for RP, action and a way to meet each other! Brilliant. Your content, and your way of talking, has eased my new-GM anxiety a lot. Thank you.
I think 2nd Edition had it right, if you put your weapon proficiencies into 'brawling' then you were a lot handier at the old fistimacuffs. I also had an NPC 'class' (1D6 to start then +1D4 a level after for HP) that could go up levels. They fought as F0 but at the lower levels, your 2nd level fighter might still have to be wary of the local miller/blacksmith who was the local tough guy because he was good with his fists. As you say, as soon as someone pulls a weapon or casts an offensive spell then they're escalating it from a 'brawl' to something more serious. I also used to have some fighters who had spent a couple of 'weapon slots' on brawling as they were bouncers or enforcers, they could still be leaders in the local militia as they were 5th level or so, just not great swordsmen, you didn't want to meet them up a dark alley though.
a nice Addition would be a classic show dont tell. i will be introducing this mechanic by the players noticing a commotion and upon researching they will find a brawl. Its wild, its fun, its NONlethal. One Thug will pull out the knife and the fun ends. either the charakters will intervene or ill make the guards appear. when the pcs stop it ill make the guards thank them in connection with a short notice of the law, forbidding to attack a citizen. Brawls are a grey area, the Guard adds, no weapons no magic, no real harm done. im so exstatic to make it happen now! Thanks again guy!
A week late: But my answer to "why can I not cast___" and my answer is that brawls are faster! A round is like six seconds. A brawl, a round is only a couple. Plus people getting jarred. Caster simply doesnt have the time to cast without being disturbed.
Dexterity acts as armor class, dex modifier added to hit roll, constitution acts as number of hits they can take (hp), base damage is 1 plus strength modifier. When constitution hits 0, you’re out cold. Improvised weapon adds 1d4 hits but takes an action to pick up and breaks in one hit
My campaign is opening with a tavern brawl ending in the party getting arrested (hopefully) so this may help. The first quest is gonna be what gets them acquitted.
One of my favourite DM mini adventures was in an old Dragon Magazine or perhaps white dwarf and might have just been called Barroom Brawl. It had a bundle of characters all with basically antagonistic tiny back stories. There was a ranger who had just come in from the rain tracking a were rat who had killed some farmers. There was a woman sitting quietly with her pet panther having a drink. There was a fighter who hated nonhumans. There was a druid who would protect animals preferentially and was busy talking to his rat friend who sat on his table. There was an evil fighter who hated nonhumans. There were a dwarven couple who had a small yapping dog that was harrassing the panther. There was an evil cleric who just ahteed everyone. There was a pompous noble and his body guard and an assassin who was looking to kill him. I believe the bouncer was an ogre. There was a thief at the bar looking to sedate and then roll patrons at the bar. There was a gladiator with a couple admirers. There was an MU and her cat familiar There was a waitress with her boyfriend upstairs who was trying to lure patrons upstairs again to knock them out and rob them. Im sure there was a paladin who preferentially protected women. There was a bard performing. There was a hafling piano player thief who would support the bouncer and the bartender who had a club behind the bar. There was some sort of Monk/brawler just looking to start a fight with someone though he would ask them to step outside. The backstories were such that the instant a punch was thrown the room would explode. I think the bouncer may have collected weapons at the door. And if was generally tasked with grappling with brawlers and chucking them out though he would escalate if someone stabbed him. It always started pretty quick. I've never tried it with PC's but I think it could be fun.
Hi Anthony! Can I ask you to elaborate a bit? I'm about to run a huge battlefield for the first time ever and am struggling with all the How's and Why's on that large encounter.
@@jenschristensen1774 When I run battlefield combat, I concentrate on three things. 1 The larger battle is basically set dressing; I describe the units in the red army charging into the units of the black army, or the survivors of one side starting to retreat over their own fallen allies. 2 The events the party are acting in are very small in scope; they are trying to reach the gate using modified chase rules, or are facing off against an important general. 3 The actions of the players effect the battle, and some parts of the battle come in to effect the main character's conditions; The trebuchet that was only described, until now blocks the character's path, blocking it, while also opening up another; or defeating that general causes the enemy line to start retreating. Similar to the bar fight, in the video, don't worry about transferring damage, or any math for that mater, between the big battle and the small event. If a random solder from the red army chucks a throwing axe at a character, treat it like a lair action. The axe comes out of nowhere, you have just enough time to react, and can't tell where it came from.
Huh! Having it run of the AC rather than HP was a really interesting idea! I gotta think about that some more. I think I would allow special abilities and stuff, though. At least to some extent. Previously I've just stated that as long as everyone pull thier punches and avoid "leathal weapons", all HPs lost will be regained after a short rest, and there is no risk of anyone dying durign the fight. Works well on lover levels, when everyone has fairly low HP.
I've used the GURPS mass combat rules when the PCs are just a small part of a larger battle (and tavern/saloon/bar/whatever brawls would fit). Basically, each player gets a roll or three to determine how effectively they contributed to their side's effort (roleplay this as much as you can), and those rolls produce bonuses/penalties for their side. The bonuses/penalties affect the final roll for the ultimate result of the battle. This keeps the focus on the PCs and what they're doing, rather than on everything done by the dozens/hundreds/thousands of PCs. For a brawl like this, the ultimate result can determine who is found unconscious when the authorities show up, and therefore has to pick up the tab. Also, another way to deal with PCs trying to treat it as a lethal combat instead of a friendly brawl is to have everyone in the bar turn on the PC using lethal force. As long as you engage in fisticuffs, you're fine. But lethal force will draw the attention of everyone, and they'll stop brawling with each other so they can take out the lethal threat.
