Donna does a similar thing when CJ gets the death threat. CJ tells her to not tell anyone and she IMMEDIATELY shouts for Josh to come read it, who then immediately gets the secret service on it. CJ is downplaying it and the episode climaxes with her in the Oval arguing against an agent being on her when the President nods to Ron to show her the files and there are photos of her from her home, and having lunch etc that someone has been taking over her, following her. Donna could have saved her life by getting Josh on it immediately instead of letting it go.
Donna wins the argument with "You meant grandfather", finally getting through to Sam that he's projecting. That returns him to himself and makes him do the right thing. Some of the best writing and some of the best acting there is.
Sam was projecting, but he's also not wrong: he was asked to confirm if someone was a spy, and he WAS a spy; they not only betrayed the nation, they got an innocent bystander killed in the process... but none of that is supposed to matter because it wasn't the answer they were looking for? No, Donna wins nothing here, because her efforts were in continuing the coverup and the false belief that the man was innocent. That the man died of old age rather than the firing squad or the gallows is the kindness he got, not what he deserved.
Yes Sam was going to tell her for the wrong reasons. But I think he should have told her tomorrow, or some other day soon. He's also right that he's not her babysitter. And her father dying strikes me as all the more reason to know the bitter truth.
Haven't heard the song in a long time. Haven't seen the episode in a few years. Couldn't for the life of me figure out why it took 5 listens of the song for tears to stop streaming down my face. NOW I remember.
"This ground holds the graves of people who died for it, who gave what Lincoln called "The last full measure of devotion, of fidelity." I tear up every time. Damned onions!
If you like that quoite, check out an Irish film form the early 90s called "war of the buttons", its about a gangs of schoolkids from a small Irish town having a feud with the kids form the neighboring town, but Liam Cunningham from Game of Thrones plays the schoolteacher in their one room school who is trying to instill some snese of history in them, there's one bit where he says "you live in a free country, men died to make it so!" and that line sticks with me years later.
This is an extraordinary episode for putting the emotional hearts of these characters on such raw, uncompromising, exquisite display. This country is an idea, and if you kill the idea, you kill the country. A message that some percentage of us have recently chosen to ignore, at our peril.
But who could? He has so many moments in TWW, of pathos, wit, physical screwball comedy, and the fiercest commitment to American ideals. He’s a beautifully wrought character, and I love him so, NOT because he is also drop dead gorgeous.
I have a lot of favorite eps of this show -- this one is definitely in the top 5. Haven't watched it in years. Thanks for the memories and flashbacks. Great, great stuff. Sorkin IS a genious.
@@sashavoja1451 I am so sick of baseless accusations without any facts and without any context. Do people just assume what they read on Twitter is actual facts? Did everyone just forget the Obama admin? Mr. executive order himself? The admin that had to treated with kid gloves because he was the first.... And what has the current one done that every other one hasn't done that violates the Constitution. Do not reply if you do not want to be shredded.
@@tomb7088 Well, for starters, picking the most inept, unqualified people..for just about everything. And we won't even talk about the pandemic playbook..that he ignored.
@@Nancy-xg9nc As I just said, baseless accusations without any facts and without any context. Most inept? Lets say that is correct. They come from a pool of the usual government creatures and usually get fired pretty quickly. So is he wrong from going to the same pool of people that everyone else went to or is he wrong for firing them as soon as he is fed up with how they fail? The real problem Trump had was that his campaign was so small with such a low pool or people working for it that there simply wasn't a large pool to draw from. So he had to draw from what was available. But when he did draw on people he already knew and trusted, like his daughter and son in law, the left went batcrap crazy, even though neither of them were being paid. And regardless, none of this is Unconstitutional. Trump could wake up and have the cure for cancer pop into his head and he would be vilified for not coming up with it sooner and would be accused of profiting from it, with investigations called for into the finances of everyone he knows. The pandemic playbook? Really, what playbook is that? These medical people are like economists. One one hand this, and another hand that and on this other hand something else. Seems to be a flood of three handed medical people. And lets not get into the simple fact that over half that died are over 65 and have contributing conditions. Lets look at the states that purposely sent sick people to extended care facilities where they had no choice but to infect others who were in the highest risk groups. All the States that did this were Democratic States. Almost like they were trying to run up the body count. And when Trump did order things that were the right thing to do, like closing down travel from China, he was roundly vilified by the left for what else, being a racist. Then two months later the EXACT same people attack him for not closing the borders down faster. And lets just forget the fact that the CDC estimates as many as 575,000 died from H1N1 in 2009, and no one batted an eye and no one considered closing down the country for it. And NO ONE would dare blame the anointed one for handling that like the incompetent fool he was. And lets just forget the very simple fact that the anointed one left the reserves of medical supplies in the strategic reserve empty for the next guy. Consider yourself shredded.
Mate, I only started earlier this year and am continuing where I left off after watching a video on RU-vid that makes me want to go through three seasons just to get to the episode.
@@lizcopp6789 He did have top billing after Sheen (Bartlet) from the very start (Because the show was supposed to be from his PoV, but changed). When everyone else got big raises, he didn't get a big one because he was already quite overpaid for what his role was (even if he was amazing) compared to the rest of the cast of equal importance, so he walked. They did treat him right, he got a bit greedy. I love the character, hell I love the actor, but the facts aren't quite in his favor on this one.
When he signed his contract, he was told he would be the highest paid actor and have one of the most important parts. Martin Sheen just came in and took it away.
@@Tarotgal8205 Yup, and Rob Lowe got butthurt because he forgot that he is Rob Lowe and Martin Sheen is Martin Sheen. He still had a key role in an all time great show but he wanted to be salty. The guy diddled kids, I have no sympathy.
And to help put this in context, apart from Sam's loyalty to the constitution a big reason he is feeling so passionate in this scene is because at the beginning of the episode it is revealed that his father, while still married, was having an affair with another woman for 28 years. Hence why he says "this girl is going to find out who her father was" and why Donna says "you meant grandfather". He believed in his father's devotion to his wife only to end up finding out about his deception. He also believed that Daniel Gault (the spy/blackwater) was merely a white house assistant to FDR who was wrongly framed for so long, even including him in his thesis, only to find out about his deception.
Indeed. In further context the audience in the episode is originally lead to believe that Gault was innocent. There is a scene were Sam talks to the national security adviser and goes how thin the evidence was against him when she hands him the file containing the proof.
"I came down here to practice my sugar tossing, cause if you don't practice you might as well give the clarinet to a kid who'll use it". I thought that just a funny non sequitur when I first saw this, but that line is his father talking. Great writing.
It’s a shame Sorkin borrowed that plot and framing lock, stock, and barrel from one of his Sports Night scripts. Instead of Sam obsessing over a spy, Jeremy obsessed over a boat that suddenly and inexplicably went missing during a race to distract him from finding out his dad had had a long-term affair.
Tough to win for best actor. All the other actors who won ( Leo, Toby, Josh) got nominated for supporting roles. Only President Bartlet ( two cathedrals) and Sam ( SGTE, SGTJ) got nominated for best actor and Bartlet won, who was outstanding as well.
I think Lowe has always been a good actor. Just never picked those good projects. Even West Wing shuffled him off to the side, considering Sam Seaborn and Josh Lyman were set up as parallels to Jed-Leo. Would have been wonderful to see future leaders being minted, but the show just turned into a decent political drama without fulfilling its potential as a great one.
I felt the same way when Matthew Perry did an arc on 'The West Wing'. But the truth is, if you're hired for an Aaron Sorkin-related project your acting is very likely to be above top-notch.
I love that what Sam’s father did wasn’t evil, he didn’t kill someone. But it’s the sort of thing that would make you ashamed of your father no matter what.
It was High. Treason and it mattered a great deal. This country is an Idea and one that’s lit the world for 2 centuries. and treason against that idea is not just a crime against the living. This ground holds the graves of people who died for it- who gave what Lincoln called “the last full measure of devotion.” The fidelity.... do you understand the last full measure of devotion to treason against them is......
@YNot1989 Yeah but the White House senior staff all had their parts to play, though. Sam = idealist, Toby = moral compass, CJ = big sister, Josh = attack dog/enforcer, Leo = mentor, Bartlet = Dad
This scene explains why we have classification of information and why it's so important to protect this information. I'm just looking at what is going on here and now and how assets and agents have been imprisoned or murdered thanks to the actions of a certain orange wannabe-tyrant.
@@lindagrammer4858 Don't even try arguing with me, traitor. You know absolutely nothing about war, about government operations, and certainly NOTHING about law. I served 32 years in uniform while the people you support tried to OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT. You and your ilk are nothing but traitors. I can't wait to see even more of you thrown in prison. Do NOT even bother to reply. You're muted now and talking to yourself.
If you never saw the episode Sam was dealing with having found out that his father had been having an extra-marital affair for twenty years. This same character note was given to the Jeremy on Sorkin’s show Sports Night. Jeremy was played by Joshua Molina who played Will Bailey on West Wing.
A lot of directors & producers have actors they like to use in multiple projects. Think of the Whedonverse or the Brooksverse, and how many Scorsese movies has Robert DeNiro starred in?
The background of this where Sam had recently found out his father had carried on an affair for around 20 years was done previously in Aaron Sorkin’s show Sports Night to a character played by Josh Malina, who of course went on to play Will Bailey in West Wing. Sorkin does like to reuse ideas and actors. I have no problem with this.
There are three RU-vid collections called The West Wing Supercuts that illustrate this propensity of Sorkin's amazingly well. And they are just as much fun to watch as those videos that compare the movie Airplane with Zero Hour - the 50s movie that its script was taken directly from.
I could never understand why they got rid of Rob Lowe. To me, he was the definite heart of that whole knot of offices and the president’s closest team members. It was never the same without him. It wasn’t Rob’s choice to leave. He heard other cast members talking about negotiating their contract for the next season. No one had approached him. Heck of a way to find out. I had no use for Will Bailey. Ever.
Donna: "Don't tell her." Sam: "Why?" Donna: "because it's not nice." Sam: "Her grandfather is responsible for people dying!" Donna: "Yea but it's not nice to say that."
My favorite part of this episode is when Nancy shows him the NSA file... when she opens it and is telling him that she's blacked out code word information his eyes never leave her face; it's a little detail but it always stands out to me.
one of my favorite sam scene;s ever. rob lowe was excellent in this episode, one of my favorite actors. he should have one the emmy for this episode for best supporting actor in a drama. oh well.
That performance was a dramatic demonstration of what true patriotism means… legitimately, and in-spite of the human complications… This show really did have a good measure on how it means to be truly-- and sincerely, without arrogance, and with all genuine, honest grace- an American-- but also, what’s it means to be an American, in the context of being a human being first. 😮
I think this is based on the case of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed for espionage in the 1950s (I think it was espionage and the 1950s, but correct me if I'm wrong). For a long time, there was strong support for the belief that they were not guilty, or at least that Ethel was not as invovled as Julius, but in the 1990s, declassified document showed that they had indeed been guilty of what they were accused of and the full level of knowledge of their activities was kept secret so as not to tip off the Soviets as to how much of their coded communications could be read.
"If you don't tell her today, you can tell her tomorrow. If you tell her today, that's it." Advice we can all learn from. There's no walking back but you can always take the next step tomorrow. Can't unring a bell.
The lesson to be learned from this episode is that a lot of you will one day have children. And you will love those kids like nothing else. Its that strong of a love. And if you do love your kids that much then you will do NOTHING to hurt them. Infidelity with your spouse will hurt them deeply. The kids will see that as a personal betrayal. So stay faithful to your marriage vows made in the presence of God even if the spouse is unfaithful to theirs. That way you spare your kids this kind of pain.
I believe that the genesis of this episode was the Venona files, which revealed among other things that the Rosenbergs were guilty. For my Conservative friends, the irony of Julius Rosenberg's code name is hard to overstate. It was " liberal".
I've always found it interesting that knowing that, the author of _Angels in America_ still opted not to rewrite the aspects that include the Rosenbergs from the point of view of them being innocent and unfairly executed.
What an amazing scene. Sam's right, he's not the woman's babysitter. It's not his job to hide the truth when he came to her. That the father is in poor health strikes me as all the more reason he should know the bitter truth. But Donna is also right, Sam's upset over his own father's decade-spanning infidelity. He's making this decision for the wrong reasons.
Plus Donna's also right that he can always tell the daughter the bad news later. There's nothing that says he has to tell her right this very minute, as opposed to what the situation would be if her belief of his innocence had been confirmed, something she would need to know right away so that she could pass it along to her dad while he was still alive.
Tge problem is, he can't tell her. He couldn't even tell Donna, unless Donna has Top Secret Classification. Nancy McNally may have removed the ""Code Word" sections of the Top Secret document, so Sam could read it, but the document is still classified Top Secret. Sam could go to jail just for asking the lady if she knew who Shabba Densky was, as his only knowledge of her death was from the Top Secret document. Later this woman could start reaching this person, leading to the knowledge that the US knew her grandfather was a spy, letting the Russian know we broke the code Top Secret means you can talk about it at all, unless you have reason to and everyone listening has clearance.
I enjoy this scene, but I love even more the scene where Nancy shows him that being a righteous champion of truth and justice doesn't make the world revolve around you. I also love how he whines "I don't know why you would think I was like that" right after spending all day demonstrating he is, indeed, "like that".
Donna was one of my fave characters ......what she did here? was horrible .....preying on Sams vanity and making that who he was at one of the worst times of his life when he desperately needed some encouragement .....it was ugly, wrong and abusive......she used her friend.....it showed her humanity and imperfection and it was ugly - and she knew it in the end .....it is easy to justify doing wrong for supposedly "right" reasons....until you see the pain they cause .......which hopefully? was a lesson to others to avoid the same "justification"
Alan Sorkin, the show runner didn't like Rob Lowe and basically wrote him out of the show. What they should have done was to spin his character off, with a different show runner, while Sam/Rob ran for Congress. Then they could have shown the behind the scenes insanity on Capitol Hill, which is 10 times worse than anything going on in the White House.
Take a look at this clip from Season 2, E: 16 of The West Wing about Treason against our nation and the idea of our nation! It's a must see during this time of Trump!
and what personal pain do we each carry, and how is that pain fueling our moral outrage and virtue signalling in our social media posts? perhaps we are not really attacking each other, but ghosts of our own past sins and shames. . . nah.
YNot1989 Exactly. And the two characters + CJ who got the shift when the story moved into a sappy drama set in politics. Rather than a political drama, albeit more idealistic. Loved that about the show in the early seasons.
The rest of the lyrics include 'everything can change in a New York Minute' ... everything Sam thought was settled fact in his life has now been completely upended, and suddenly. You have to look beyond the title, although the implication of damage done and criminal behavior from the title does fit.
For context, Sam Seaborn found out that for 30 years, his father had a mistress/second family in Santa Monica. He feels like his dad betrayed his family and especially his mother. While he tries to get through the day, he's approached by Donna, who has a friend whose grandfather, Daniel Gault, was sentenced to prison for perjury at HUAC, accused of being a communist spy. With her father on his deathbed, she wants to finally get the charges of her long dead grandfather expunged. Sam is just the person to look into a posthumous pardon, because he's written a paper before on the need to pardon Gault, and sent it to her father. During his search for the records, he's approached by the National Security Director, Nancy McNally, who gives him code word classified CIA files, detailing how the CIA knew Gault was a spy. Twice in one day Sam has been betrayed by men he thought were heroes
Why was everyone on the show so naive & take everything so personal. I never get why sam was so worked up to the point of throwing sugar packets & avoiding the issue of telling the friend or whatever either the truth he was a spy or saying simply that he couldn't find anything. I forget how many times they all got so worked up over nonsense especially things like this that happened 50+ years ago before any of them were born. he gets upset with Donna & then throws a tantrum walking up to tell the "friend" all over something 50 years earlier that had nothing to do with the administration or whatever let alone nothing personal to Sam. He acts like someone beat up his kid or killed his pet fish. BTW you know the US would try to get an advantage over Stalin just as they would today over putin & putin would try over the USA. Its basic diplomacy & common sense. So what's the big deal people spy all the time for & against us. Hate them sure but hold it against their family let alone 50 years later & after they die. Unless the family helped some how.
This show had great characters, had great scenes, and had great actors. It also depicts how far left the liberals of today have gone. This one scene displays how the liberals were against communism in the late 90's and early 2000's. In 2023, the far left liberals are openly embracing communism. If a far leftist of 2023 just watched this TV show for the first time and didn't know that these characters were democrats, this hypothetical leftist would think they were republicans.
On the same side they ever were, upholding the principles of this nation. They just get a lot more challenged on it by people suckered by the first deranged president ever elected in this country.
It is a shame Sorkin and Rob Lowe couldn't get along in real life. Lowe wanted to be the star of the show and Sorkin was able to write just too many amazing characters for that.
Donna is right that Sam needed to cool off and not act on impulse after what recently happened to his dad but I do agree her “what does it matter” comment was absolutely insulting and Sams response was 100% correct. In the end I think Sam handled the situation as best as he could by not telling the daughter the full truth but she will eventually find out and will have to come to terms to who her grandfather truly was
@tejaswoman he gets the premise of America. The anti-Americanism that hates the constitution and says the country was founded on stolen land is all on the left. He even has a gadsden flag in his office. Also, talking about treason while the president's son was selling access to his dad to foreigners or after the disgraceful way they abandoned Afghanistan is rich. Or how about that democrat that was banging a Chinese spy? Spare me.
Total facepalm. The truly dangerous ones are those who side with the Marxist revolutionaries, otherwise known as Antifa. Who excuse their actions. Some who refuse to even admit that Antifa exists. Those who side with these terrorists and revolutionaries rather than with the vast majority of regular Americans. Get an effing clue.
"...What difference does it make?" To those who'd bash the "W" of everything from lying to UN to declaring mission accomplished. Tell the Soldier, Sailors, Marines and Airman who got killed in Carter's watch during the aborted rescue mission that might have ended the Iranian hostage seize in 1979. Tell the Rangers, Delta and Spec ops who needed more firepower and latitude to win battles but Clinton didn't want to make a scene in Somalia at Blackhawk Down How about the Muslims who were massacred at Bosnia conflicts where UN with US sidelining, not committed any ground troops to peace keep and safe guard all civilians. Then fast foward to Hilary and Pres. Obama administration and Bengazi, Paris Massacres, and ISIS... "...What difference does it make?!" When the ones you love are the lost, it matters. So, don't try to sell me a bill of damage goods to me and say the GOP are the ones to blame for our international woes...take a hard look at the liberals for being wishy-washy!
+dustyaries The Balkans was on Bush's watch. Dont try to sell me some prejudiced nonsense that either side can do national security better than the other.
The Yugoslav Wars took place from 1991 to 2001, so they happened under both Bush and Clinton. We stayed sidelined from so long in the Balkans and all throughout Rwanda because when we intervene, the world gets upset. When we don't intervene, the world gets upset. Reality is always more complicated and and nuanced than what you find on the news. Any president, Democrat or Republican, has to make the most difficult choices in the world. While it is easy for us to pass judgment, we do not have all the facts. Also, while we the people tend to think in a short-term context, they have to deal with the long-term consequences. That is why history usually changes perspective on the presidents. For instance, Truman, while very unpopular when he left office, is now considered to be one of the better presidents. Some of Reagan's policies, while popular at the time, may have contributed to the recession. There are times where there's an absolute wrong and an absolute right, but they usually almost always include body counts. Hindsight is 20/20, but rarely can anyone see whether a decision was the right one until the damage has been done.
+ukanian you take it how you like it. The fact is perception is 9/10th the law. For those who believe W should be tried as a war criminal...fine! All of us have blood in our hands when Americans cried for blood after 9/11. Before/during/since. No one is blameless.
Everything you just named is not an 8th as bad as Bush and Iraq. It is a greater foreign policy blunder than Vietnam and one of the greatest failures in American history.
Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. Nothing in the discussion had anything to do with race, and Democrats still are having to stand up to treasonous people in this country who are trying to hand it over to Russia. Main thing that's changed is that the GOP used to _also_ be against that.
This episode shocked me, I finally realised that liberals back then actually loved America. They were also intellectuals, they quote Romans and Aristotle, the know Saint Thomas Aquinas and talk about art as if it is a reflection of God! They love the Constitution and think despite the evil in their past, America is worth fighting for and it is for those who died that evil against the country is so horrible. In short they were Americans once.
