Yoda warned Luke about the dark side…If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. I think Luke always struggled with the dark side all his life. Seeing Luke “almost” kill Kylo is no different then him “almost” killing Vader on the Death Star II. Did he do it? No. Did he want too? Yes. Seeing this version of Luke made sense to me even if I didn’t want to see it.
@@donaldluszczewski6998 Why would he do it again? He learned his lesson, and he learned so much more by the time he started an academy. Why would Luke (out of the blue), want to kill Kylo just for sensing some darkness in him immediately. It makes no sense. You are approaching this from a bullet point view, not from character growth and history.
@@cranshawmccaw So once you’ve learned a lesson in your life you’ve never struggled with said issue again? Read Yoda’s quote again…”forever will it dominate”.
@@donaldluszczewski6998however, he never really "started" down the dark path so the whole "forever will it dominate your destiny" doesn't happen. He gets tempted yes, but the whole point of him stopping himself from killing Vader and truly "starting down the dark path" is that he rejects the dark side, he decides to be selfless and become truly a jedi like his father before him. So it does make it a bit out of character that just because he saw a vision of a future that's always in motion, he decides to kill his nephew to stop it from happening? It just doesn't make much sense.
@@donaldluszczewski6998 Sure it could be an issue like mental struggle but for a huge lapse in judgement like turning on his lightsaber due to it is out of character. Luke choose to lay down his weapon even though after talking to yoda and then Ben who said "you must face Darth Vader again!" LUKE "I can't kill my own father." BEN"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope." This showed how Luke actually was more of a true Jedi after both Yoda and Ben had become regretful and tired. Luke saw the light that was still in Vader and if he saw the dark in Kylo, he would have had a sit down and probably hash it out.
Interestingly enough Freddie Prince Jr went on and chastised the fan base saying "you're just mad cause a kids show didn't age with you" here we have Sam saying, "no you have a right to be upset, and you have a right to love it". He's seriously a cool guy
That argument will never hold water with Star Wars fans because the Star Wars community has spent the last 50 years picking it apart down to the molecule. The idea that Star Wars is just a “kids show” is extremely reductive to the the point of absurdity. There are people who made their scientific careers writing thesis on concepts from Star Wars. Even an archaeologist who got his PhD from finding tattooines real world locations
@@daltooinewestwood6380 right! Freddie Prince Jr is a major tool. You don't do a character then bag on the market audience. I'm 40 years old and I watched rebels with a smile on my face
FPJ is a punk who thinks he's smarter than he actually is and George Lucas throws out the "It's for 12 year olds" line to dismiss criticism when the reality is Star Wars is not just laser swords and space magic. It's decapitation. It's dismemberment. It's space politics. It's relationship melodrama. It's slave Leia. It's child murder. It's Han shooting first. That's for 12 year olds? Sure. Whatever you gotta do to sell those toys, George.
For me, the biggest takeaway here is that Sam Witwer, the go-to voice in all of Star Wars these days, has a model of good ol' Starship Enterprise NCC-1701 on a shelf in a friggin' place of honor. That speaks to me on SO many levels.
I think the most important thing that he said was that Luke became this way offscreen. Luke can totally become a fallen Jedi but the story has to earn it instead of being forced on us.
People tend to forget that when Empire came out, we didn't get any backstory on why Yoda was broken and hiding in a swamp. He even resisted training Luke the same way Luke resisted training Rey. The difference is that so many SW fans went into the sequels with all the books and other media that's happened since ROTJ in their heads and thought they were entitled to see a swashbuckling Luke who aligned with that stuff. I had no problem with his treatment. I actually have a way bigger problem with leaving him out of Ep. 7.
@aldersmoke1 but Yoda was a brand new character when Empire came out. The details of his backstory aren't vital to the movie because the original trilogy itself is self-contained. The sequel trilogy, on the other hand, is not self-contained. It builds directly off of ROTJ. Going into the sequels, we know Luke's backstory because his backstory is the original trilogy itself; we a have a pretty good idea of him as a person. So it's pretty jarring when his character is so fundamentally different from one movie to the next due to some family drama that happened offscreen.
Why though? Why why why, dear God why? Of course you COULD make any character broken, but WHY on Earth would they spend billions on Star Wars just to make Luke a broken character? That’s like buying the rights to Jaws and making a sequel where the shark is scared of water. That’s like buying the rights to Mary Poppins and making a sequel where she hates kids now. That’s like buying the rights to Fast and Furious and making them drive golf carts. That’s like buying the rights to John Wick and making him a pacifist. Thats like buying the rights to Wolverine and taking away his claws. Have I made my point? I think I’ve made my point.
@@k.k.michael2142 I think the key phrase in your response is "when it came out." Yes, the OT was standalone when Yoda was introduced, but it's not now. At this point there are probably more Star Wars fans who grew up with the prequels and OT and watched them in sequence than there are people who saw the original trilogy first. So most people actually are introduced to Yoda before Empire now, and that's only going to become more so the case as time goes on and those of us who saw the OT when it came out die off lol.
@@erikdayne5429 They made Luke a broken character, but they also brought him back and had him save the entire damn rebellion. I still really don't understand why that's not enough for some people, but I think it's more interesting that he had an arc as opposed to just being awesome all-powerful guy from minute one. Besides you could ask Lucas the same question about Yoda. He was shown to be very powerful and competent in the prequels and was essentially broken and in hiding by Empire. I honestly feel like people ignore the very real parallels between the sequel trilogy and the original trilogy because they just wanted to see Luke running around being the guy from all the Timothy Zahn books or whatever. Maybe it just comes down to whether you had your expectations based around all that stuff, or whether you're somebody like me who never took in any of the stuff outside of the movies and TV shows. I have no problem with where we found Luke in The Last Jedi because I didn't have any preconceived ideas or expectations of where his character would be.
Absolutely perfect response from him, I can see how some people liked that even the great luke skywalker could have fear and screw up, but just personally cant see his character pulling a light saber on kylo and then cowering away for years whilst the first order builds huge strength and his nephew gets turned by an evil sith
TLJ introduced some cool concepts, but those were outdone by the amount of things it ruined. Rian Johnson wanted a specific direction that would subvert fans’ expectations, and he was too successful in doing so. His story-telling style didn’t translate to Star Wars.
@@BrendachoI think the first and biggest mistake was they brought just abrams to setup his lost mystery box then they just passed off the sequels to Johnson cause abrams ultimately doesn’t care. I think Johnson made the best movie he could with the setup, recourses, and limitations he was given
@@yeahey5947 I actually agree that he did the best he could with what he was given. He doesn’t get all the blame. I remember my dad told me to look up the mystery box interview right after we had seen TFA in the theater 💀
he screws up in the OT, thats teh whole point, he overcomes it all and eventually he and his father defeat the empire. If they wanted him to have more troubles they could have done it without butchering his character and they could have also done it alingside him rebuilding the jedi order, not after a clone of teh empire come back
Going from 1: attempting to sacrifice his own life to save Vader, to 2: almost killing his nephew out of anxiety that he might be evil, is utterly absurd. Doubly so when you consider that Star Wars is a fairy tale. Anakin and Luke are two sides of the same coin: a hero who failed, and an extremely similar hero who learned from the mistakes of the former and subsequently succeeded. Vader symbolizes ourselves when we succumb to vice, and Luke symbolizes us when we control and integrate the toxic aspects of our personalities so that they don't consume us. Abrams' and Johnson's lack of understanding of & respect for Star Wars made them perfectly unqualified to add anything to it, and they actually subtracted from it by undermining its central themes.
I'll always have a vendetta against this movie. My mom was a super fan. Like talking Star Wars with her cousins when she was young and Star Wars first came out was one of the few things she had super fan. I had to leave the theater with her after this movie trying to cheer her up. It's like someone took one of the parts of her childhood that was good and spent 2 and a half hours crumbling it up. She was visibly hurt and trying to hide it. The fire that set in me is illogical and irrational but still burns to this very day.
I thought the idea of a "broken" Luke was interesting. What broke him made no sense. It could not have been his impulse to kill his nephew, because for him to nearly kill his nephew shows that he was ALREADY broken at that time. So, what got him to that point?
Weight of a legend on his shoulders. He became a legend, he could not make mistakes, whole galaxy was watching him and counting on him. It is precisely what people that don't like this part of the movie tell, that he won't for a second think about killing his nephew. We all think, this is Luke Skywalker, he wouldn't do this, he can't, he will find a way. But he had one job, train the new generation of protectors of the galaxy and he failed, he saw his pupil destroying everything he fought for instead of protecting. He saw the story recurrring, Jedi from prequels failed, his order failed, then the ways of the Jedi are not so good as he thought. And this was everything for him. Everyone looked at him as a legend that couldn't make any mistakes, yet he was only human and for a brief moment when the whole galaxy was in danger he lost his temper. For very much shorter time than he lost it when Vader threatened Leia. He broke under the weight of anticipation, of pressure. He was the one to protect whole galaxy from the Dark Side, and here it is, a person who destroys it all. Moreover, he just tried to murder his nephew. He despised himself for it, I assume. Then Yoda shows up and remembers him, that knowledge isn't heart, the Jedi doesn't have to be dogmatic, they can be what people need, they can learn by mistakes of the old Jedi, of Luke too. Why Yoda didn't turn up earlier, during Ben's training? Because he trusted Luke, as everyone. And after the attempt to kill Ben Luke cut himself from the Force. And after Yoda's visit Luke are the Jedi whole galaxy needs, sacrificing for life of others. Acknowledging that Jedi doesn't mean the rules, books, but the drive to do good that he saw in Rey. That is why he calls her a Jedi and gives her the mantle. It all is fair enough for me that makes Luke old hermit believeable and enjoyable, but I understand that not always demythologization of a character is a good thing and some people may find it unnecessary, especially if it is someone they look upon as an icon, as an idol. For some people having this figure is important and I get that. For me, humanizing Luke, when he was a legend since 1983 was a bold choice for a fairy tale series, but done really well in TLJ. And you gave very important question, what got him to that point? Why has he done this? It happened, period, now we can think why from the clues the movie is giving us. For example, this sentence, "he will destroy everything I loved and fought for", there is many things that either of us can imagine by that. Was it Han dying? Leia? Mara Jade? Luke's children? New Republic? Jedi Order? Peace in the galaxy? Depends on our personal experience. The movie is asking us this question, but the shock is too much for some people to answer it (again, I get that). The complain I have is that canon depicts Luke as someone continuing the ways of the Jedi from prequels and before. TLJ suggests it, The Book of Boba Fett strongly suggests it. I would rather see Luke as someone who revised the Order. Maybe taking his nephew into the temple was such move, he for sure had an attachment to him, just it ended with failure.
@@patrykadamkiewicz340 The problem is that all of that took place off screen. We didn’t get to see Luke struggling with the weight of expectations and how that changed him. It’s poor storytelling.
@@patrykadamkiewicz340 I also agree it doesn’t make sense that Luke would try to re-establish the old ways. He was not trained in the old ways. What saved Vader was familial connection, not the rejection of it. So Why would Luke fall back into that old system?
Honestly, I thought they would have made it seem like Kylo killed the non-canon Mara Jade, and (for good measure to work our tears), their unborn child. And Luke's inability to strike down Kylo after he did all this, is why he retreated and hid. He failed as a teacher, husband and father on one hand, and instead chose to be a Jedi, instead of striking down the man/boy who did it. But I'm sure Disney would have said, no, we can't sell action figures of a child killer, cough Anakin cough.
@@adrianpillai6645 - I thought we would find out that Luke had freed Snoke from some sort of suspended animation thinking he was an ancient Jedi., and invited him to teach at his school. But Snoke corrupted Kylo and some of the others (the Knights of Ren). So, Luke felt responsible for unleashing an even greater evil than Palpatine, and losing his nephew to the dark side. He went into hiding to try to learn how to defeat the ancient evil.
its called tried to still sell to both audiences.. which is ironic.. considered hes pretending to be neutral but also thinks "some people NEEDED to see luke like that" - who is he to have a right to judge those people on so little. and as if this justifies Ryans portrayal of Luke... and that is the only reason for that comment. just nah...
@@TheCjHEntertainment_Plus thats a bold statement and just an exaggeration considered how long Feloni had Lucas consulting him. The very episode regarding 'The Wills" in clone wars shows how much Feloni not only knows the lore but is one of the few people who got answers from Lucas on the first scripts of star wars. I honestly call total BS on your statement which just seems like PR for this dude. Which is fine but not to the point of lying. I could give you a lot more examples of how Feloni is probably one of the few if not the only who Lucas has shared his vision for star wars with. I see no basis on your claim other than marketing purposes and even then a baudaciously aggressive exaggeration. Aside from that, and on a personal note considered Feloni made Darth Maul the 'picasso of star wars galaxy' - see the murales painted by Maul in the episode of clone wars where he and Asage fight Palpatine obviously inspired by Picasso, I honestly see this voice actor as a shrimp next to a whale. just no. Feloni is also rather versed in Darth Revan lore not to mention the source material from which Revan was inspired and that is used in SWTOR as 'ancient lore' - Naga Sadow, Freedom Nadd Exar Khun and so on. In support of my accusations I say the motivations behind your sponsorship of this dude are corrupted by his 'politically correct' stance on 7-9, clearlt a YES man who want to work with disney but also doesn't want to antagonize the core fandom. Simply insufficient at this point, its too late for that.
The scene of Luke in The Mandalorian was more than just cool and badass and the Luke we always wanted… I mean it was those things, but after how much a portion of the fandom was disappointed, hurt, even “traumatized” to be a bit dramatic, by the Luke they were given in TLJ… Luke’s appearance in Mando was really, righting a wrong. It was like a breakthrough in therapy. The visceral emotional reaction people had to getting Luke in The Mandalorian was because it restored that light of hope to a franchise that a lot of people thought had killed off with Luke. Luke in TLJ broke some people’s hearts, and Luke in The Mandalorian began to repair that heartbreak.
I dont think that heartbrake as you described would have happened if they hadn´t kill the character on the film. Because that version of Luke traumatized by his nephew turning to the dark side and he battling against that as well would been great to see. The scene where Luke projects himself as space Chuck Norris is great but it was coitus interruptus when he died for that. I think thats the whole issue. If we had a scene of him picking up his x-wing from the sea at the end I think the overall feeling of everyone would have been completely different.
@@sergiosanchez2012 Honestly this new generation will never understand the Luke I grew up with. I know this sounds cringe to say but for me he was the ideal person for someone to grow up as. Someone who never gave up. Someone who still fought for victory even after defeat. Someone who is hopeful. The problem with sequel luke isn't that he almost killed his nephew (Luke would never do that) Is that he went into exile and gave up
The scene in isolation sure but sadly he was just used as a key jangler where he shows up and then disappears. Last jedi gave us jake skywalker Mando gave us skinwalker luke
I really like this video. I'm glad to hear Sam Witwer's thoughts on TLJ. I really love the way Mark Hamill portrayed Rian Johnson's view ok Luke. Even when he didn't like, he did a brilliant performance. I've always found broken characters interesting. My favorite part on the movie was Yoda's lesson: "The greatest teacher failure is" -Yoda was my favorite when I was a boy. So, I kinda understand what Johnson tried to say. At least the film spoke to me (personally). That being said... Sam is RIGHT about "changing a character off screen". That's a mistake from Episode VII -Remember: "Luke skywalker has vanished"... Whe all were like "Why?" but they didn't answer well the question.
I think the primary issue is that teaching stops being teaching when you don't learn from it. Luke learned initially that you can't deny your emotions and that embracing positive ones while denying negative ones is permissible and does help. Luke's failing in TLJ acts as if he never failed with similar mistakes in ESB and ROTJ I think a better teaching of failure happens in the EU, where Luke refuses to train a next generation of Jedi because he doesn't want another Vader. He relents after one of the hopefuls instead pursues the Dark Side, and becomes a Dark Jedi that ends up dying. Luke failed in this regard, and learned that he does have to create a new generation of Jedi so that he can help avoid tragedies like that in the future. Even further than that, when Mara Jade is killed by his nephew, he instead decides to pull back and bow go confront his nephew, out of fear of falling to the Dark Side by doing so.
I asked Chat Gpt what the first 6 movies had that the last trilogy sequels did not have and it says: 1 A cohesive and planned-out narrative, with a clear beginning, middle, and end. 2. Familiarity and consistency of tone and style instead of a lack of consistency 3. heavy character development, giving a deep understanding of the characters 4. groundbreaking and imaginative storytelling, 5. imaginative World-Building. Chat GPT has spoken. Oh and they did not follow R2 and 3PO either.
@@TheRockinDonkey Yes, just because the AI creates human language as output doesn't mean it possesses a mind that understands what any of it means. It just strings words together according to built-in rules of grammar and based on what words appear together in its database, with a lot of human interference (fine-tuning) by the developers. You could have just as easily asked ChatGPT why the sequel trilogy is the best out of the 3 and it will piece together sentences derived from different parts of the internet to justify its point
@@sickjuicysjamshack3580 Yes. Exactly. While I didn't like the sequel trilogy, a lot of people loved it. It just demonstrates that whether a movie is good or bad is usually subjective. You also pointed out something that I missed: it was asked a leading question and gave an answer that would support the narrative that the movies were bad.
ChatGPT stated in a very clear manner what I've been thinking about as well. Consistency and cohesion. The main problem of the sequels is that it's not SW. It's transformers, it's fast and furious, but it's not SW. Andor has been the only consistent and cohesive disney SW project so far. Everything else is just random "cool" tricks thrown into the same stories we've already seen.
Wow! I have even more respect for Witwer after seeing this. His 2 Force Unleashed games were some of my favorite games ever and he did an amazing job ACTING in those games! They literally took his facial expressions and movements to create the character and Starkiller is one of the best developed, acted and powerful (Force and emotion) characters in Star Wars as a whole. I loved his take on TLJ and pointing out my exact main issue with the movie. That wasn't Luke Skywalker. They lessened and destroyed him, off screen and his motivation was killing his own nephew in his sleep because of a vision? Sam pointed out that is completely against Luke's character and saving Ben would have been child's play compared to saving Anakin. Cudos to you sir. Oh, and he's absolutely the perfect person to do Maul's voice in all his animated appearances. 👍 Mr. Witwer
One fundamental flaw that’s been with Luke across all the films, Is his anger when his loved ones are threatened. During their escape In A New Hope, when Vader’s saber goes through Ben, It’s Luke’s screaming that draws the attention of the stormtroopers and Vader. In Empire Strikes Back, its the prime conflict of the film, his impulsive decision to save his friends ends with him fighting Vader unprepared, losing a hand, not rescuing Han sooner. When we see him walk the the doors in Return of the Jedi, he is a much different person. He is calm, and collected in the face of conflict, learning from his mistakes. This is the Luke Skywalker everyone knows and loves. That is until the two guards block him, and he casually strangles them. He brings back his composure when speaking to Jabba, but once the return of his friends is denied, he pulls down his hood, grabs a blaster, unaware he’s standing over the Rancor pit, and makes the situation much worse for everyone. This unresolved rage is picked up on by Vader, and used to draw Luke out of the shadows, which results in Luke almost killing him, not realizing until after he’s slices his hand off, that he’s gone too far, allowing him to see his flaw, and resist it. This comes back full circle, when he looks into Ben Solo’s mind, and sees the “Death of everything I loved because of what he would become.” This means Luke is seeing the deaths of Han Solo, Lor San Tekka, The New Republic being destroyed, and everything else. This is not only Luke’s greatest temptation, But also telling of how much stronger Luke is than he was. Unlike with Vader, he never has to bring his saber down, He ignites it, instantly understands what he’s doing, and stops himself. The tragedy being, that Ben saw that fleeting moment of anger, and that’s what destroyed everything. The idea that at Luke’s strongest, his one weakness, no matter how far he’s overcome it, was discovered, exploited, and it resulted in the greatest loss of his life, being what makes him retreat into himself. For those who argue, that Luke sat around for 6 years and let a bunch of bad things happen, that’s ultimately true. But so did both Obi-Wan and Yoda, except their exile was nearly 3x as long as Luke’s. While I take issue with how long Luke took to help Rey, even knowing Leia was in trouble, it’s important to remember that the The Force Awakens and Last Jedi are one continuous event, taking place over a couple weeks at most. Starkiller Base doesn’t reveal itself until it blows up the New Republic, which is followed by an immediate attack on by the Resistance, and it’s destruction. Rey is gone within a few days to find Luke, And the Battle of Crait happens less than a week later. Bail Organa saved Yoda’s life, but Yoda didn’t bother to show up to try and save Alderaan, nor did he decide to get involved after. Meanwhile, Rey told Luke what happened, and within a few days, he got involved, showing even at his worst, Luke is still a better Jedi than any of his mentors.
I think you definitely have a good point. If done right, this could be a very thought provoking story, especially when you consider that Ben was his nephew, and so was someone he also loved. That could be a super interesting point of conflict, not just using his flaw to keep him from reaching his goal (like in ESB), but actually pitting his flaw against himself, his loyalty to his nephew against his loyalty to Leia, Han, and his other students (and probably a lot more people). I just wish they put in the leg work to bring him to that point and didn't have all of Luke's change happen off screen. If that occurred maybe there wouldn't be as many people taking issue with Luke's character (including me).
@@dipperpines2793 I agree in the regard that while I understand why he is the way he is, we simply find him that way, with little context of the journey to getting there. I read the comic, Rise of Kylo Ren, which dives into Ben’s conflict, and reveals who/what was actually responsible for the destruction of Luke’s temple, and it was baffling to have such a detrimental piece of the story, not being told within the trilogy. While I really like Episode VII-VIII, and have made peace with how the trilogy ended, It’s easily the trilogy with the most missing pieces, even with the new novel, Shadow of the Sith being released last year. Each film has a major piece of story missing that comes out later in another form, and leaves the casual viewer frustrated. So to an extent, I understand the negative reactions from fans who feel like pieces are missing, and stories aren’t earned. I do however believe, the audience has a stake in the stories they are told. We each connect with them differently, and are affected for different reason. It’s when people remember to put themselves into the story, that certain elements make sense.
I love the phantom menace, once I understood Quigons character and how much of a maverick he was really made me love this film simply because of him lol oh and the soundtrack it's next level.
i view phantom menace and the last jedi similarly at this point, to be honest. there are parts of each movie that are really interesting and worth watching, and then there are parts that... aren't so good.
Witwer nailed it so hard that Jesus gets flashbacks from his wounds, showing his absolute and complete understanding of Luke's character. There's plenty of wrong in Return of the Jedi but Luke's storyline's ending is perfect. Dude redefined what it means to be a jedi and did the impossible. And Witwer is clear about it being ok for people to love/like TLJ and that insulting anyone over liking a movie is unacceptable while encouraging discussion. It's a perfectly crafted answer from diplomatic point of view, h covered his entire ass there. Nothing to discuss here, dude is fully objectively right.
Yeah, except… what did Luke do right before refusing to kill Vader? Time after time he said he wouldn’t fight him. And then Vader mentions his sister, and bro loses it. Wailing in Vader, cuts off his hand, on the edge of killing him. Then he saw what he becomes if he does. He takes a second, and then decides to throw his saber aside. So it’s perfectly within established character that Luke could have a destructive thought pass his mind, for the greater good, and catch himself in that thought, pushing it away, as he did standing over Ben. I think people don’t realize about Luke in ROTJ is that he’s not actually as grown up as he seems. He’s putting on a “strong, stoic, wise jedi” front. When actually he is fallible. He is inexperienced. He will lash out on anger at Vader. He will get annoyed at the price of a flight to Alderaan and that he can’t pick up power converters. BUT he will also check himself before he goes too far. Love Sam, but I don’t think he’s completely right here.
@@EatSleepEmpire Sam and others said it best- Luke had every reason to kill Vader. He was maimed by him, his sister's life was threathened, both his mentors were pushing him to kill Vader + Vader himself said it was too late for him to be redeemed. Vader knew which button to push. He noticed Luke sacrificing himself for Vader, he knew threathening Luke does nothing since Luke walking into lion's den proved that Luke's life matters little to Luke. But since he was able to risk it all for his father then threathening his sister could do the trick, and it did. You don't have anything that would justify hurting Ben like that. Calm Luke approaches a son of his sister and best friend and goes for a lightsaber, in the middle of the night. No discussion, no reasoning, just cold murder attempt. Turn off your coping mechanisms, because thats just a reaction of your system to something completely fucking insane your eyes saw on screen
@@EatSleepEmpire When people justify Luke’s behavior with Ben, they either use the argument that Luke stayed stagnant with the same flaws since the OT, or they say “people change”. Not even the defenders have a united POV, so you know there’s a problem with the film itself. The ending of ROTJ makes it very clear that Luke conquered the same vulnerability that plagued his father throughout the PT. Anakin compromised everything about himself, emotionally and mentally, to protect his loved ones, and fell completely to the Dark Side. His emotions were not evil, but his fears and anger were exploited to serve evil. But Palpatine even acknowledges his failure to claim Luke’s will for his own, in the end, when he gives up the mind games and goes for the kill. “You’ve won, “Jedi”. I can’t turn you like your father, I have to end you.” If Luke’s achievement has no permanent impact to his character then his entire journey in the OT is pointless. Reversing that, as they did in TLJ, screws up not only the OT but also the PT narrative.
@@miqvPL obviously you didn’t listen to the dialogue in those scenes, because it clearly said Ben had been communicating with Snoke, the dark side was growing in him, Luke looked into his mind and saw that he would do evil things like kill the other padwans, become Kylo, kill in cold blood, help snoke destroy the republic. And for a second, a brief moment he had a single thought to stop it all if he acted quickly. Which makes total sense. If you knew your nephew would kill your sister and brother in law and a bunch of random people, wouldn’t it pass your mind at all to maybe take him out while you had the chance?
@@hw7738 first off, if people have different approaches to make sense of Luke in the sequels, doesn’t mean that everyone is wrong. Because people both change, and hold on to flaws. That’s a completely normal human thing. Luke and Anakin were both faced with turning to the dark side, and only one chose not to. BUT the point is Luke barely was able to make that choice. The turning point wasn’t him being a morally superior man than his father, it was the advantage of seeing what he would become if he did choose the dark side, in Vader. He sees the amputated robot hand on both himself and Vader and realizes that that path only leads to bad things. Conversely, it almost gets him killed because without Vader, he would have been fried to a crisp. Moral of the story is we learn from the lessons of our parents and we are stronger when they help us. But Star Wars has never been about perfect moral individuals. The characters are more real. In the dark of vader, there is moments of light. In the light of Luke, there are moments of dark. When we expect flawless characters, we expect too much and lose the humanity of it all, the realism. It doesn’t ruin Luke’s choice in RETURN and make it pointless, just because he had a momentary relapse. It only serves to grow the complexity of Luke’s character and his humanity, instead of the incorrect notions that he’s some kind of superhero stereotype with an unrealistic, unchanging set of traits.
Suddenly I’m getting lots of Witwer videos popping up. Wish I’d seen the earlier. Such a great guy. Nerdy and professional. He ought to write the next live action films.
Luke had a thought. He had a visceral reaction to the Dark Side when he realized how corrupted Ben already was. He'd never have done it, but the thought was enough to lead to tragedy. He is human, and even a Jedi has those kinds of weaknesses. Luke only had his realization at the end of ROTJ after he'd already lost his temper, cut his father, and tried to kill the Emperor once. I think it's consistent enough with the man we saw later.
@@Morten_Storvik The change of Luke between Return and TFA / Last Jedi? It's not done with 1 little scene where he tries to kill Ben. Is there anything else shown? ... that makes sense (in the continuity)?
He has said what I have been trying to say ever since I saw this god forsaken film better than I ever could. When you fundamentally change a character off screen. Yes. Because I can believe that Luke would have fallen and felt like the Jedi were not worth saving and that he would go into exile. But only if we had gotten a chance to see him try to make a new Jedi Order. If we saw him train his nephew and for his nephew to turn bad. If we saw the inner turmoil for more than just a 5 second flashback and we got to see Ben struggle with his emotions and Luke struggle with his. And if we got to see Ben turn and fuck up the Jedi Order Luke had worked so hard to build and we saw Luke face Ben and realise that he could not kill his nephew, nor could he turn him back. Then I could believe he would be a hermit on an island. But instead, we got shown Jake Skywalker and we were told we have to accept this now. And then he died. Which again, I would be less annoyed about his death if we got to see his full story, if we saw everything I just mentioned. Instead, we saw Jake Skywalker die and I felt nothing. Changing Luke off camera was the problem. Having a whole big period of Luke's life, his prime years be glossed over was the problem.
I LOVE the idea of Luke turning away from the Jedi order and becoming sort of spiritual but not religious in regards to the Force. There were SO many ways they could have handled that that were within Luke's character. But they had to go and change a core characteristic for the plot. I'll never, EVER understand how people can say "well he fought and nearly killed his dad, so it's in character." no. there's a world of differencec. His father was a murderer and a powerful dark side user, the right hand of Palpatine, the most evil man in the Galaxy, combined responsible for billions of deaths. Luke didn't have a huge connection to Anakin but knowing he was his father was enough to try and save him. Meanwhile a child he'd known from infancy into young adulthood is worth considering killing. I'll never understand this. It's wrong.
Couldn't agree more, "that guy doesn't ever think of murdering his friend's and his sister's kid". I have very hard feelings about TLJ. I love a lot of what it was going for, I love the presentation of certain ideas. It had a lot of interesting set ups and could easily have been up there with ROTS and TESB as the deeper more emotional episode of its respective trilogy, especially with some inspired film craft that was fresh for Star Wars. But for every good set up, there was a monkey wrench of a bad idea in each of them. Chiefly, I think Rian could have pulled off the whole Luke being the disillusioned, apathetic recluse thing, without having him stoop to murder for incomprehensible reasons. Just learning the contradictory truth of what the Jedi Order did to Anakin would be enough to send a more mature minded Luke on a spiral of self-doubt, which legitimately was always Luke's weakness... It's the whole attempted murder of a child aspect and then making a joke of what's become of him that really spins an intriguing idea, which I'd love to take seriously, and warps it into something absurd and abhorrent. I was content to assume, after seeing the trailer reveal that Luke was done with being a Jedi, that he'd simply had a candid conversation with Anakin's Force ghost, and after what happened with Kylo he went on a quest to determine the validity of the Jedi way, and that information caused him to consider the Jedi in a similar way as Ahsoka did; that maybe the Jedi way isn't what he thought and had become a source of breeding powerful and tortured individuals who go on a quest for ultimate power. That's still an idea I'm absolutely fascinated by every time I hear it brought up in Episode II. It's particularly gut wrenching to watch TLJ because Rian had the ideas to make it work, there in the mix, he just added character assassination on top of it, as some kind of weird meta joke to be edgy, and pulled the stitching out of his own brilliance. The Last Jedi is fascinating and frustrating in equal measure.
I'm generally of the same mind. I hate how, as with so many things, it's become a binary issue where you're expected to either hate everything about the movie or think that it's a masterpiece. Even some of the more controversial aspects, I find interesting, but there are too many fumbles, minor and _very_ major, for me to say that I enjoyed it on the whole. One of these days I'll have to give it another go and see how it stands up, but I don't expect my opinion to change.
But there was no attempted murder, there was the same instinct Luke had when Vader threatened his sister, the instinct to protect what he loved, followed by the immediate shame of his own instinct. Luke only ever attacked Vader, he never harmed Kylo
@@zachnorton329 No, I see the reasoning behind why that scene was written that way, I just think it wasn't written well enough to avoid the unintended interpretation, and even lends itself to it. The way Kylo interacts with Luke at the end suggests they didn't have a good relationship before then either, which suggests Luke on some level knew that peering into Ben's mind could result in a physical altercation. You could say, well he just had his saber with him because he's a Jedi master, but the suggestion that they just hated each other, without any examples to the contrary, really frames a scene we saw three different versions of in a way that removes the intended confusion and final clarification angle, and suggests all three versions are just different interpretations, based on memory or imagination rather than any true canon depiction. So, Luke's answer to Rey's inquiry about it serves as a determining factor in any audience interpretation. He says, "I saw darkness." Which heavily implies that he went into Ben's sleeping quarters with intent to confront him, which means the moment he deems his moment of shameful instinct is actually his way of coping with the shame of walking to the brink of acting out a rage induced premeditated murder of his nephew. You might say we are intended to take Luke at his word, based on what we know of him from the previous trilogy, and believe him when he says it was just instinct, but in reality people go to prison because they couldn't stop themselves from acting on instinct, and Luke canonically deliberately put himself in that position. One line to save that scene from being the assassination attempt of a sleeping boy would be to take, "I saw darkness," to, "I thought if I knew his mind that I could save him, but I saw everything he would do, and..." Just a few scenes of Luke struggling to figure out what to do about Ben, that Ben was showing dark tendencies, to justify him invading his mind in his sleep. And that's why I'm obsessed with this movie I don't like very much, because there are so many little details that could have changed the entire perception of the movie, and the director left it at a level akin to character assassination with just enough to say he technically depicted the character accurately, but he knew what he was doing by not giving Luke a single moment in favor of his morality, and only giving us the word of a morally impugned version of the character to clarify his motives. It's possible to say he was maybe being truthful, but it's impossible to ignore the circumstantial evidence on display. It's technically possible to interpret that Luke just had a moment of weakness, but it's impossible to ignore the validity of the interpretation that Luke went in there angry and ready to act and is ashamed and answers in denial of his true motives. It's not only just as possible, but as much evidence as we are given, it's the far more likely interpretation.
I like his point about doing it off screen, I like Luke in the Last Jedi but I do understand that his character development happening off-screen for the most part did create a lot of tension for many people. Luke's portrayal in Book of Boba Fett provides a nice halfway point between rotj and tlj because he seems to have trouble balancing dark and light and finding truth in the ways of the old Jedi and the reality of the galaxy and the force. I hope he appears again as the mando era progresses so we see more of how he grew to his point in the Last Jedi.
I don't think they need to dedicate a series to Luke before the events of TFA but they definitely need him in as much media as possible, we already got 3 movies and I think having a series would tarnish Luke more so yeah little snipbits just to remind us his still around like Book of Boba and Mando
Because of this video I just came up with a great way to get the story points that Rían wanted and retain the integrity of Luke: What if Luke entrusted Snoke to be his second in command before he knew he was evil, and Snoke was the one who tried to kill Kylo, but then justified it to him like any good abuser and groomed him to side with him against Luke. Kylo killing Snoke would be him recognizing Snoke as his abuser and groomer and getting revenge for it. He would then seek revenge against Luke for entrusting Snoke to help run his school. Luke is still a flawed character but instead of him doing a 180, he retains his over-idealized view of people. His strength becomes his weakness. His reclusiveness occurs not only because he can’t stand to look at Han and leía but because he no longer trusts his judgement. He is afraid he will continue to cause more harm than good, but Rey helps him see that like the force making decisions is all about finding BALANCE as opposed to dealing in black and white ideals.
To the idea that Luke Skywalker went through something soo traumatic it made him self-exile himself and go through a depression of sorts, was a great idea. I like the idea that a character like Luke can be humanized. The idea that Luke Skywalker or anyone, even fictional characters is always steadfast and never ever backs down, makes the character one dimensional. Now the why he left and the execution of the plotline obviously was where it went wrong. But the idea to me was never a bad one.
i would really love to see a deep discussion with Johnson about everything he was thinking when he scripted last Jedi. Certain things were homage, certain things were legends that needed to be in the main canon history, but some things, felt like fan fiction rather than caretaking.
Sam Witwer is living the Star Wars nerd dream. He's a big voice in the industry (literally) and he is considered one of the biggest lore masters in it. Just looking at the shelves behind him, not full of figurines, but books tells you he takes his knowledge seriously. I can't read the titles of most of these books, but it looks like he has tabletop game books and even the Star Wars official art design books there as well. That tells me he is a true lore master.
Star Wars fans, we’re like Jedi and Sith, all part of the same Force but rarely finding common ground because it’s easier to disagree or even hate one another. The Jedi side of the fandom being more about disagreeing and the Sith side hating on other fans. Then there’s those of us who are the Qui-Gon Jinns or Luke Skywalkers of the fandom, super chilled trying to enjoy what we enjoy and just moving on if we don’t like something
I really see both sides. I definitely agree with a lot of points that Sam and you have, but I also see the other side I have seen what beer has done to somebody no matter how good or strong you thought you were thinking two things could go back to the way they were before. And I understood him hiding. When something so traumatic happens you get this survivor's guilt you get this for Morrison no matter how good and light you think you were they can still pull you down into that Darkness if you can't feel right you can't think right you can't do anything right so you hide and no matter how hard you try and just can't care no matter who it is and no matter how close they are for you your whole being just shuts down, and I know Mark didn't like that Luke either, but he portrayed it very well
I agree with Sam's respectful approach here, it is the way we need to treat each other. That said, everyone I've known irl who liked the new trilogy, had never watched star wars before. I just pretend the whole thing was an alternate timeline now... and it's looking like disney+'s Ahsoka is going to make that daydream canon. thank GOD
yeah nah, between the Mandalorian and the Bad Batch especially, all the shows they've been putting out in the post RotJ era have been explicitly setting up the threads they pull on in the ST. Once upon a time I wished the same, but the writing is on the wall at this point. Everything they're doing is pretty much doubling down on the events of the ST.
Iv been a fan of Star Wars for nearly 30 years. Grew up with the original trilogy and empire strikes back is my favourite film. I really like the force awakens and the last Jedi. I think they are beautifully shot, excellent performances and the force awakens especially is probably the most well paced Star Wars film there is.
@@mrgflan1 yeah they kinda trying to do the CW "note" like with the prequels - trying to fix, add and build as much out of the story with new content so it fits better overall. the problem is that the prequels overall had a good story and the main flaws were from different nature - thus CW had a easier game to improve the prequels. for example the overall cloning lore from kamino to empire to FO they now do is actually a good attempt to "somehow" fix the palpatine meme but even then you wont get the majority again on the table regarding palpatine not dying through vader.
@@Philipp3022 yeah I have my gripes with how the story was handled in the ST, it was definitely a mess. Like, each individual film with the exception of RoS is good, The Force Awakens was a legitimately good setup to the trilogy, and the Last Jedi, while I disagree with many of Rian's choices regarding the overall storyline, is structurally sound and a beautiful film in isolation. I haven't watched Rise of Skywalker since the theater, the film itself is just a mess, but I do feel like the story is pretty decent. Like I walked out of the theater being like "meh, it was okay", but I thought the film was structurally kinda bad, and a few details like the sith dagger lining up w/ the death star wreckage was just a bit too kitschy for me. But the expanded content does go a long way to try and fill in the gaps. And hopefully with the Mandoverse we'll see a bit more of Luke's order as well before it's destroyed. I have a hope that some more of Luke's Jedi may have survived Kylo's purge and will help Rey in rebuilding the Order.
The more I hear and see of Sam Witwer and the way he talks about how the sequels aren't good in a constructive way, it honestly has me becoming more and more of a fan of his.
A couple years ago, when I had an opinion on something that I loved or hated and most people didn’t have the same opinion, I took in personally and I thought “You should like what I like, me me me!” etc. That was the old me and around 2022 I realise that opinions are just opinions and shouldn’t “always” be taken personally. I like the prequels but not a lot of people don’t and I do get it. When you have an opinion on something or someone you need to have facts, you need to make it clear. There are various people who say they don’t love or hate something with no valid reason just randomly saying it, or some people have a reason but usually the opinion doesn’t make sense, or the opinion can be harsh towards what their talking about. When it comes to a story that you don’t personally love don’t attack the ones that aren’t, yeah remember AREN’T the writers. Whenever a protagonist or random character says or does something a lot of people wouldn’t appreciate it and attack them. The writers hold accountable for the plot to even existed, if they believe it’s a “masterpiece” and you don’t think it’s good you can say “No I don’t think it was.” And then you give the facts, make a list of the things that you didn’t like. Simple. I don’t like the sequels they don’t have a proper structure, nothing engaging or new to think of. The Rise of Skywalker (to me) is the worst Star Wars movie of all time because it’s confusing. Palpatine was pointless he was literally bait for all fans to love the movie and give a shit. And what makes it worse is that they don’t even show or properly explain how EXACTLY he came back and it made Anakin’s sacrifice in Return of the Jedi pointless. Hux from being a powerful, determined leader who is willing to decimate millions of lives to be loyal to the Empire, is a spy for the Rebellion? What? And also this movie ripped of Return of the Jedi, The Empire Strikes Back, and Avengers: Endgame. Palpatine tricking a young Jedi to strike him down, “I am you’re father.” moment, there’s only two - three last men standing losing all hope against an entire army, but then reinforcements arrive, and then… the absolute worst and obvious rip off: Thanos: I am inevitable. Iron Man: And I… am… Iron Man. (Kills bady) Palpatine: I am all the Sith! Rey: And I… I’m all the Jedi. (Kills bady) That’s my opinion and if you enjoyed the movie, then explain why? Explain it in 300 words.
One thing (one of many) which took me out of the movie was when Luke was talking about the Jedi and dissing them. He was talking as if he had watched the Prequels and not as someone who has actual knowledge. He was not alive back then, so how could he possibly know that the Jedi were arrogant and failed the galaxy? The only Jedi he knew was Obi-Wan Kenobi and Master Yoda, who were exemplary in their behavior and teaching methods. So where did this anger and despair come from? Is it because of Ben Solo? Really? One student is drawn to the dark side and so he loses all faith in not only his student, but in himself? That shows incredible weakness and selfishness, which Luke never displayed. Then there's the whole characters acting out of character thing, like Luke, Leia, Poe Dameron, Finn, General Hux and Kylo Ren. That's a lot of characters behaving like other people for one movie. This all stems from the writing. Why on earth did they let one person have so much control? Writing and directing is usually reserved for those who have way more experience and success at it. Rian Johnson had only done three movies, before being given this huge, multi-billion dollar franchise, and his last movie - Looper, only had a budget of $30 million, and for my taste, it wasn't that great. It had some glaring plot holes. He should never have been hired for this, or at the very least, he should have had a writing partner, or someone at Lucasfilm to challenge some of his decisions. Any actor who disagreed with him got shut down. He refused to listen to anyone. He was too precious about his writing and forgot the number one rule in writing - sometimes you have to murder your darlings, which means that some of the things that you wrote which you thinks is so good and you absolutely love, are actually bad for the story and need to go, but you like them because it strokes your ego, so thinking about getting rid of them can be hard, if you're not a seasoned writer. Kathleen Kennedy praised him for this, yet fired Lord and Miller from Solo? Go figure.
Maybe Luke did some research into Jedi history, found holorecordings of Jedi council meetings. Maybe he did some thinking on the Jedi code and thought “this is bullshit.” Maybe he sat down one day and thought “why am I the last of the Jedi? If there were thousands like me, did they not see the coming betrayal? What did they do to let one man turn a galaxy wide republic into a dictatorship?” He could have also talked to some Jedi spirits like Yoda and Obi-Wan and asked them what happened. That’s a thing that can happen. I mean, I wasn’t alive during the Holocaust but I have the ability to find out what happened. And Yoda and Obi-Wan weren’t the best teachers, it’s why they’re in that situation. In Return they tell Luke “you have to kill your dad, there is no other way.” And Luke found another way. So Luke clearly doesn’t consider Yoda’s teachings as absolute truths. And Luke didn’t try and kill Ben. He stood over his bed contemplating what to do. He was in a difficult spot. And in no instance during what really happened did Luke show any anger towards Ben. He was confused and didn’t know what to do. Luke is human, he’s capable of making mistakes. When Ben wakes up, you can tell that Luke realizes he made a mistake. He doesn’t try and attack Ben, Ben Simmons his lightsaber to attack Luke. And it’s not like Ben was just his student. Ben was his nephew, his family. His nephew, someone he was entrusted to care for had been going down a path Luke’s father went down, a path that screwed everything in the galaxy. Luke sought out to change the Jedi and prevent it from making the same mistakes that caused everything to get screwed. Yet he couldn’t even protect his own family. That’s why he despairs in the Last Jedi. He sought out to write the wrongs of the past and couldn’t figure out how to make it work.
@@fionn_mac_ribs stop trying to rewrite the damn movie. That's not what happened, because that was not shown on screen. All we have to work with is what the writer/director chose to show us. The point I was making is that the only Jedi in Luke's life, were Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, and both were great examples. They never gave him a negative impression or made him think that Jedi sucked. He wanted to become a Jedi because of those two, and because of his father. The writing is just plain bad. If you don't show motivation for why a character is behaving a certain way, it's because you didn't allow for it. That's why it's so jarring and takes some people out of the movie. When we last saw Luke, he had just saved the galaxy, and more importantly turned his father, Darth Vader over to the good side, becoming a Jedi in the process. He was still full of hope and optimistic. That's like having Homer Simpson turn into a genius after being on vacation for a week.
@@rogersjgregory Yeah, I agree we could have used a bit more context and time focusing on why Luke became the way he did, but you’re completely ignoring what I’ve said. I’m not rewriting the movie, I told you exactly what happens. Luke never tried to kill Ben and clearly regretted that he considered killing his nephew. Look at his fucking face. I’m speculating on why Luke became this way, not rewriting, whatever that means. I’m analyzing what we were told in the movie and trying to take it apart. Yoda and Obi-Wan were not perfect and Luke realized that. They kept telling him to “leave your friends to die” and “you have to kill your father.” Luke disagreed both times. He was right both times. Obi-Wan admitted to him in Jedi that it was his fault Anakin became Vader. Clearly, Luke knows they are flawed and not perfect. Yoda told Luke he had been training Jedi for 900 years. Do you think Luke never thought “if you’ve been doing this for nearly a millennia, how did you fuck up?” It was Luke’s responsibility to rebuild the Jedi. Do you really think he’d never consider why the old order failed? Do you really think he wouldn’t do some research for himself to figure out what the order’s weaknesses were? He knew two people. That’s clearly not enough. I’m certain Luke is capable of research. I do however dislike that Luke decided to stay on Achto to die. I think it’d be far more compelling if he went there to train further and prepare to defeat Snoke, and the reason he refused to leave was because he didn’t believe himself ready, not because he wanted to hide from his mistake. Because Luke Skywalker made mistakes. Don’t pretend he isn’t capable of making mistakes after the original trilogy.
I agree. It'd be okay to have Luke disillusioned with the Jedi, but by Episode 8 he's outright hateful and disgusted. It's pathetic. You'd think there'd be some kind of serious personal experience there that might justify his broken state, but nope.
@@fionn_mac_ribs I wouldn’t say it was Luke’s responsibility to rebuild the Jedi Order, he does have free will. Also, being hunted down and killed by the Sith, and a Clone army, is not the same as failing. Yes, they failed to detect the Sith until it was too late, but you’re not taking into consideration just how powerful Palpatine was. When Yoda told Luke not to go and save his friends, it wasn’t because he didn’t care about them, quite the opposite in fact. He said if you value everything they have fought and suffered for, yes. What they fought and suffered for was fighting The Empire, so if Luke had been taken, The Empire wins. There was a lot at stake. Also, Luke was a novice, while Vader was a seasoned killer and a powerful Sith Lord. He was force-choking people on different Star Destroyers, he was very powerful. Luke couldn’t even raise his X-Wing out of the swamp. Yoda and Obi Wan had every reason to doubt Luke’s ability. Also, if you ignite your lightsaber, that means you definitely intend to use it. So yeah, Luke was about to kill his own flesh and blood, but he hesitated. That’s like going into someone’s bedroom, aiming a loaded revolver at their face, and pulling back the hammer. You might not have gone through with it, but it’s a fucked up thing to do, definitely not the kind of thing you expect from a hero. This wasn’t some random student, this was Leia’s son, his own nephew. Also, when you consider that Ben eventually turned to the good side, it’s even more fucked up. This is not Luke’s fault, it’s Rian Johnson’s fault, because he wrote it.
I completely agree with both Sam and yourself; especially when it comes to Luke. For me, the entire sequel trilogy is kept in the same metaphoric box as Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skulls marked’ “Do not open under any circumstances - there’s absolutely nothing to see here!” In time, hopefully I’ll forget they ever even existed.
Every now and then I get the urge to re-watch the sequels with the hope that I'll somehow like them...and then I slap myself, turn around, and put on TESB.
I don't agree with him on people not being actual fans if they get personal with other fans about liking the sequels. They're being toxic, but they feel that there's a reason why they should act that way. Often times the argument they use is that is that the other person likes a version that trampled all over existing lore and characters and that isn't something to be respected. Which i understand to a degree. It's taking it too far to be personal with someone just for liking the sequels, but they also don't need to agree with that opinion either
You know what i love about the sequal trilogy... That it take 8 movies, and 20 seasons across 8 different series to even get to the sequel trilogy in cronological order.
I think it's always forgotten that not 20 seconds before Luke throws his lightsaber away he was moments away from killing his father in a murderous rage. All throughout Jedi Luke is struggling with the dark side, and just like in Jedi he has only the briefest moment of weakness and fear, that this time destroys everything he stands for and believes in.
Not forgotten, but it's still not the same. Darth Vader was a villain, who was complicit in the destruction of a planet, killed Obi-Wan in front of him, and up until the truth bombshell, the man who killed his dad (and he still wasn't totally sure until Yoda said so). Luke had EVERY good reason to listen to Obi-Wan and kill Vader, but he stubbornly refused until he threatened Leia, and even then he stopped himself. Ben Solo was his nephew. Luke knew him from birth, and he trained him himself. There's no rational reason why Luke would ever dare pull his saber on him when he had no prior signs of darkness. He should have at least had the sense to know the darkness couldn't be coming from Ben and it had to come from somewhere else. Even in ROTJ, when he was struggling with what to do, his very first instinctive action wasn't to take out Vader, it was to take a swing at the Emperor, because he could tell who was actually pulling the strings. No such thing occurred in TLJ, because if it had Luke would've gone to get Snoke to knock it off before raising cane on Ben (and even blinded, prequel Yoda did the same thing).
@Andy Howard But my point is he doesn't have control over himself and his emotions. In that brief moment he can't see his nephew, he's being assaulted by these visions of all the horrible things Kylo Ren would and could go on to do. In Jedi he's clearly susceptible to moments of temptation, in that moment he's not himself, he's taken over by the dark side and he's blinded to the fact that this is his nephew who he loves, he can only see Kylo Ren who would kill his students, kill Han Solo, lead the first order and destroy the new republic. And just like with Vader he does stop himself immediately but it's too late.
@@seth1349 But he DOES have control over himself, or otherwise he would've killed Darth Vader. He already experienced dark visions of the future in ESB and acted on them rashly, losing his hand and nearly getting himself killed. You'd think the first thing he said to Yoda afterwards was "Sorry, you were right." There's no way he would make that same error in judgement again, especially after having the opportunity to talk to Anakin who made the exact same mistake in the prequels. Speaking of which, Ghost Yoda never showed up to give him any advice until that point where it really didn't matter anymore? Or Anakin and Obi-Wan? It's what I loved about Luke in one of the chapters from the Hand of Thrawn. He didn't try to follow and prevent the visions of his family being in danger, he followed the one where he saw himself, because he knew what happened last time and chose to be wiser this time. TLJ Luke didn't do that.
@@HyraxusPrimus A character who saved the galaxy from evil would probably have the instinct to ensure evil never rose again. Have a traumatic response perhaps. Perhaps a weight of outside pressure and maintaining everything you've built too. But then humanity kicks in, love not power... "It passed like a fleeting shadow" illustrates this. Fallible heroes are the better, they teach us things that infallible ones can't. RotJ Luke is not an archetype like he was in ANH. When we have power, expectation, control and success (especially if built off genuinely good past actions) we can be led to un-wise action in the future.
The fact that Sam explicitly talks about fans having productive discussions and yet this entire comment section is people arguing and insulting each other...
In the heat of battle. Luke never would done something as cowardly as sneaking into his nephews room in the middle of the night. He reacted to a jump scare that we don't even get to see, and Kylo never doesn't anything evil enough to warrent his vision in the entire trilogy. The whole thing is a pointless mess that craps on fan favorites for no pay off.
@@Lastjustice Your're both arguments are valid, it's because Luke conquered his feelings, that is thy reason of becoming a Jedi, in the end of the ROTJ Luke was no farmboy anymore.,. he became a Jedi.
@@Lastjustice But also it is the reason why i hate also what they make of him, i am so grateful i discovered legends stuff and i sucesfully sank into it so there's no sequel disney for me, Luke is Powerful and high in midichlorians range as Anakin/Vader, Noble as Obi-Wan/Ben, Wise as Yoda and he's aware of the power of the darkside from no other than the nemessis as is Darth Sidious himself ,.. he's supposed to be the greatest Jedi ever existed and has the greatest quest of them all.. to create Jedi order once again from absolutely nothing. I've really seen through Disney sjw propaganda lies from very beggining i don't care very much about their explanations of their doing anymore, for me the EU already covered everything in the sequel era and more.
@@personagrata111 See that's what massively sucks, is having the Jedi burnt to the ground again doesn't leave them with any new threads. They easily could just had Luke, Han and Leia succeed at their goals, and that would make them too busy to do this hands on stuff as that's generally how careers progress. Having a functional school also grants an easy origin for any new force users good or bad. Instead they do the boring thing, and just reset the series back to square one making everyone failures. I agree as I made peace with the sequel trilogy by considering none of their movies canon. I'd rather let the EU be the canon that stands as it atleast wanted the heroes to be successful as they rebuilt the republic and the Jedi order. It's not all parades and rainbows, but I'd rather see Luke get married and have a kid than die a loser on some planet alone. The Skywalkers are the Star wars story, and having their family erased and replaced isn't something that should been ever allowed. If they wanted have a blank slate, jump hundreds of years and the OG cast is long dead, so you can do what you want with the many descendants. You can cameo Mark Hamill as Jake Skywalker and be the character Rian Johnson wanted him to be rather than screw up Luke. Disney wanted it both ways, get people show up for the nostalgia of the OG cast, but then kick them to the curb soon as they could to give Rey all the importance. No one wants see their fan favorites old and defeated.
I love this assessment. Like what you like. I saw the sequels when I was 10-13 in theaters and really enjoyed them. I've grown to like them a lot less in retrospect, but I can to an extent understand why there are people who like and are loyal to them. Are they a good trilogy? No. Will that change? No. But there is absolutely nothing gained by tearing into people who like them or by tearing into people who don't.
They are objectively bad movies from a story telling stand point. They deserve to be tore into. You don’t have to attack anyone who likes them while doing it
I was your age when I got to witness the prequels in the cinema, and I loved them, maybe due to my age (mainly talking about ep1), and having grown up with the OT before that, I wouldn't have had the wherewithal to be objective in my in my reviews of the prequels even when I was 3 years older purely based on the fact I'd have dared you to try and show me any form of 'bad' Star Wars Content. It simply could not be, I was the target audience and I ate that shit up. So Kudos to you young sir. May the force be with you rararaa
But it isn’t a bad trilogy, and there’s way more good than bad. The issue here is that people love to use an “objective standard” to claim this trilogy is unsalvageable, which isn’t true at all, because with everything, there is good in it, you just have to see a different point of view. And in time people will appreciate what the sequels did right. Character building and character growth was the biggest strength in my opinion.
Thanks for showing a great example with Jeremy Jahns. That's how you do it. He was super critical with the movies he didn't like but not once did he say anyone was braindead for liking them. RedLetterMedia on the other hand...
I think one of the big reasons that a lot of hardcore fans were upset about the way they went with luke was because we had legends luke, who rebuilt the jedi order to be what it was supposed to be and had a spouse and kids and loving relationships without Anakin's obsessive attachments, and to see all that thrown away for a character who just fell back into a lot of the mistakes of the old order was frustrating. As someone who has never been into the comics and things like that i would have loved to see that Luke Skywalker on screen and see how he rebuilt the order to be what it was meant to be.
In my case this is completely true. The old canon flaws and all had more of a sense of hope and light. What a Jedi could be without the baggage of the old order and keep the principles that would keep the galaxy safe. I read about his pilgrimage and finding as many aspects of the Force as he could in order to discern and teach those who would come after him. Though I watched all these films it seemed like not only did they throw away his whole personality they destroyed every achievement he Han and Leia worked for. The New Republic is so incompetent that they said "hey Imperial Remnant come on in and fuck up the government". How do you allow your sworn enemy into your inner circle begging them to undermine you? I cant conceive them allowing the Empire to pull a Hydra. Legends NR was smart enough to say we're taking this here and making it free space. The Empire still has their strongholds but they were allowed to become a separate "state". They are basically on equal ground and can become diplomatic if need be.
Lukes arc in The Last Jedi is almost the same as Ulic Quel Dromas in Tales of the Jedi Redemption. To me it always felt like, someone loved that story so much, that they decided to just switch characters. The version of Luke in TLJ makes perfect sense in Tales of the Jedi Redemption. Ulic Quel Droma was a jedi who betrayed everyone he cared about and became a bad guy and then he gets his Force Powers stripped away from him and he chooses his remaining years to live in exile. And the girl of the woman he loved, seeks him out, so that he can teach her to become a Jedi. And by doing that he becomes a Jedi Master, redeeming himself. It's such a beautiful story.
... What fucking film did you watch? Jake doesn't train Mary Sue. He projects his failures on the Jedi, and she trains herself only for him to inally admit that he was a fraud and a false Jedi all along.
With the future projects announced, do you believe that one of Dave Feloni’s objectives will be to at least try to explain why we ended up getting that version of Luke? I felt he was successful in changing my point of view about the prequel trilogy with the last 4 episodes of Rebels and if anybody can “fix” Jake Skywalker it would be left to him?
If, IF the Lucasfilm story people are smart, yes. Star Wars needs to establish plot continuity between the sequels and EVERYTHING ELSE if they want to move forward. They're sort of doing that with the cloning plot lines in Bad Batch and Mando. I think they're scared of the Luke problem, though.
Head canon dictates that the Luke Skywalker that Rey encounters and is trained by was Luuke Skywalker, the clone that was made from Luke's severed hand. Luuke took over for Luke back in the day. Luke went to the uncharted expanse to find Revan's holocron or something very important that help him train those students that were ultimately killed by Kylo Ren (thanks to Luuke).
My favorite pastime is watching fights between Star Wars fans. I love all star Star Wars, so I don’t even get in the fights, I grab my popcorn and sit back and watch the action.
Despite TLJ's other flaws, I maintain that if Luke's mistake had been believing he had turned Ben away from the Dark Side, then being betrayed by him, it would have played much better.
I think if that betrayal and the death of the other students had actually enraged him, maybe a brief stint of taking a dark path against the first order happened before he stowed himself. So he exiled himself and disconnected from the force because he feared falling to the darkside and becoming his father, well I could of bought that, his exile would of been because he didn't want to be a detriment to the galaxy. Then Rey could of been the spark to bring him out of his funk.... that would of been fine. We could of had a reciprocal master apprentice relationship where they are both learning from each other.
If the majority of the fanbase doesn't like 7-9, it's just objectively bad and rejected. 7-9 was just milking the franchise and made by people with no plan and no passion. If they used George's script for 7-9 we might have had a different outcome.
I fully agree with Sam and will never stop criticizing, denouncing, and abhorring the Last Jedi. I hate that movie with a passion. But I will always draw the line at hating and disliking people even if I disagree with them. People have had different opinions for thousands if years and when they can't agree, it's led to conflict. We have to be able to respect people and treat them with kindness even when we disagree with them. The is the only right thing to do, the Jedi thing to do. I would loving nothing more than for everyone to agree that the Last Jedi is a bad movie and for it to be removed for the stain it has left on Star Wars' legacy. But no one who likes the Last Jedi will ever be convinced of my perspective if I insult them. And even beyond convincing people, you have to treat them with kindness irregardless. I will believe what I will believe about the Last Jedi and they will believe what they will believe. We may never agree but there must ALWAYS be respect and kindness between us.
The problem with “more fans are better” is that by validating ALL views on the films, particularly the deconstructive sequel films, Disney then realizes they can make ANYTHING, slap a “Star Wars” logo on it, and people will defend it. And then we get shows like Obi-Wan and Boba Fett. Quality slips when studios AREN’T held to standard.
I agree with Sam. I’m not a fan of the Disney Era, with the exception of a few tv shows, I don’t like what they have been doing or how they’re treating the things/characters that have come before. And because of that, I have long since decided to remain with the Legends canon, as that is my preferred era of Star Wars. Best to leave the new era alone for those who are liking it.
@@runningbear6391 I understand why George sold the company but I really wish he had sold it to someone else. Or put someone else he could trust in charge of the company, while he remained in control and got to move on with his life.
I'm not a fan of the sequel trilogy myself...the rest I've enjoyed overall yes even Solo and Resistance, Resistance is actually pretty underrated in my opinion.
Even as someone who liked The Last Jedi, they should have focused more on Luke and Ben's relationship in the movie, as well as the dynamic between Rey, Ben, Luke and Snoke. A few more scenes here and there showing their relationship between one another would have fleshed out the movie more and make it more interesting.
Luke to Rey: "I've only seen that much power once before, in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now." Also Luke Skywalker: So scared of Ben Solo turning to the dark side he almost killed him in his sleep. So, if that was what "It didn't scare me enough then," looks like, what would it have looked like if he had really been scared enough?
he didn't " almost kill him in his sleep ", not even close. When Luke tells the story to Rey for the 2nd time he said this about Ben, " I saw darkness, I'd sensed it growing in him, Snoke had already turned his hearth, he would bring destruction and pain and death at the end of everything I loved and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeing shadow, and I was left with shame, and with consequence, and the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who's master had failed him. " And he paid the consequences, by finally putting the last drop to fill the glass and turn Ben against him for good.
So, he ignited his lightsaber over the sleeping Ben with the instinct to kill him. Even if it was only a fleeting instinct, that sounds an awful lot like almost killing him in his sleep to me.
I don't blame Rian Johnson for the choices with Luke, he had to justify Luke's self exile and Kylo's evil that JJ Abrams established. He set up a bunch of puzzle boxes with no answers and didn't consider how it would affect these characters and then left it to someone else to solve
Thank you! IMHO, Johnson did a great job with what he was given. I still can't believe Disney had no overall story plan. Just NUTS! Also can't believe JJ ruined our 3 or😅final characters being together again because of one of his stupid mystery boxes! 🙄
I could write a better than Johnson in this. It is not that hard. You seem to say that he is written into a corner and cannot be blamed for his crap. Don't be fooled.
@TimurQuinton442 great, let's hear your story then. Please write a plot that explains how the son of Leia and Han came to hate his family, Luke decided to abandon the galaxy, who Rey's parents are, who Snoke is, introduce at least two new planets and 3 new creatures to sell toys, while also progressing the plot forward, oh and you only have 2.5 hours to do this. No matter what Rian did, Luke abandoning the galaxy to the first order would ALWAYS be character assassination, this was my point.
@Scribz1212 I thought about it and came up with better story in less than a minute. I guess I am just more creative and understand a descent story arc better. And that is sad from a professional director and writer.
People forget the third movie Director quit because of this movie. He did not know what to do after Last Jedi. All thanks to Ryan Johnson and his take on the characters.
Uh no, 3rd director was fired and his script is online. Not to mention they used portions of his script for the 3rd film, and he shares a writing credit. Lol
I respect Sam’s opinion. I personally loved the first 2 sequels. Really wanted to like TROS and sometimes I can trick myself into enjoying it but it just bummed me out. Funny thing about Star Wars is there is something for everyone and when there is something that doesn’t feel like it was yours the Star Wars fan base becomes absolute in there opinion. It’s funny when you think about it.
What a great take I personally 100% agree with you the first two sequel films were very strong for me especially the last Jedi the rise of Skywalker has a lot of problems for me mainly that it doesn’t feel like a true continuation of the last film in some aspects but hey glad to see a like minded star wars fan, may the force be with you
I’ve learnt to appreciate the sequels for what they are, I used to really have problems with them as movies but I’ve just come to accept it all. I’m still not the biggest fan of them as instalments to the overall Star Wars franchise but there is some pretty great stuff in there. I’m so sick and tired of people, the FANS, hating on these films. It’s been nearly 4 years since they finished and it’s just so boring hearing, seeing and reading comments from people complaining about them, like we get it you didn’t like them, but what is complaining going to do? Complaining never got anybody anywhere. I’ve learnt to just appreciate everything in Star Wars and respect the individual opinions from people, because the more we argue online and fight with each other about it the more we’re going to resent the atmosphere and the whole experience of this Saga we all grew up with. There’s a reason that Star Wars fans are often stereotyped as one of the most toxic fandoms in the world, it’s because of how vocal we’ve been as a community towards some of these films. Why can’t we all just get a grip and appreciate each other’s opinions and carry on with our lives, what would that cost? What’s the points in arguing about it? Anyway I feel like I’ve said what I needed to say. Rant over :)
Great video, I'm a little late to the party it would seem. I must disagree with one point however, Luke ultimately saved Vader but there was a moment, a flash of hate in his eyes where he almost gave in when vader threatened leia. I believe the Luke Rashanon moment was a reflection of this momentary lapse. It just cost him a lot more...
Sam is a diplomatic guy who understands that this topic is absolutely radioactive, especially considering people at the absolute top of Lucas Film supported Rian and his take in TLJ and those same people have been known to fire people simply for daring to disagree with them. It was brave of him to say even this much.
Maybe the problem is that, in an effort to deflect criticism from the film, Disney called fans who didn't like it racist/misogynist trolls who were not true fans and encouraged people who enjoyed it to do likewise. Disney/Lucasfilm employees were openly mocking fans who were critical of it on social media. OBVIOUSLY that was going to draw backlash in kind, even though, admittedly, probably the majority of pro-TLJ fans didn't engage in the initial name-calling. However, they still got caught in the crossfire and in turn became antagonistic towards anti-TLJ fans, expecting personal attacks, and so the whole thing became a vicious circle where neither side was willing to give the other the benefit of doubt, fueled by the fact that it's so much easier to be an asshole to others online than it is face-to-face.
You know what they could have done to at least kinda fix Luke in the Last Jedi? If they retconned it so that not only was Palpatine talking in Ben's head to drive him towards the Dark Side, but also speaking to Luke and clouding his mind so that he isn't thinking clearly, and that is why he draws his blade on Ben. I mean, it's still not great, but it at least takes Luke off the hook a little. Obviously the sequels would have been better if they had a plan from the beginning, but as far as cleanups go, my personal head canon is that Palpatine was fucking with Luke's mind and THAT is why he had made the mistakes he did and why he had to cut himself off from the Force.
That’s where I’m at. I despise the sequels so much I pretend they don’t exist. I don’t want Mando verse shoehorning itself into the best explanation for the sequels they can come up with. I for sure don’t want a follow up movie. Just bury the sequels in a shallow grave and move on with better stories.
@@sattymike0155 Yeah if George didn't write or intend it then it ain't in my head canon to be honest. There is the original authors vision and Disney's reinterpretation.
I agree 100% that the Luke Skywalker we were given in TLJ was not the Luke we desired or ever wished to behold. That being said, something interesting I noticed years later watching the original trilogy Obi-Wan & Yoda, both individuals who knew Vader was Luke's family asked and wanted him to murder his own father. And was discouraged when Luke discovered prematurely that Vader was his father. TESB clearly showed how they pleaded for Luke not to try and confront Vader, before his training was complete! Yoda said in ROTJ that he wasn't ready for the burden of such knowledge and the emotional turmoil such information would cause making his mission that much more complicated needlessly. Yes, Luke eventually found an alternative way to have the best of both worlds. However, it placed in jeopardy the entire galaxy with his gamble to capitulate the fight. Nearly cost him his own death and the inadvertently revealed Leia's identity. I think Rian Johnson was, going for a Luke that after many years finally reached the state of mind, where it was possible and necessary to kill someone even a relative in cold blood. If it meant saving the galaxy from the second coming of Vader's evil presence resurfacing whom Kylo Idolized. like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him, he finally became a true Jedi Knight by discovering how to use his power, wisdom & logic to its ultimate potential. To be able to make difficult choices for the greater good and not allowing the pitfalls of emotion and fear of lost, to make him choose a pathway that inevitable causes more harm then good. The fact Luke was nearly crying as he raised his lightsaber to strike down Kylo shows he was still himself, but understood the consequences of what it truly means to be a Jedi something his father was unable to accept which caused him to succumb to the Dark Side of the Force in the first place. Think back to the prequels, Yoda, Windu and the other Jedi Masters are ready and willing to kill for the greater good, without hesitation even in cold blood and operate on a higher moral authority, "The Will Of The Force" as was shown in ROTS Windu and the Jedi Masters were ready to kill Palpatine had he refused to comply, which is what Mace was about to do prior to Anakin last second intervene, coming full circle to the conversation Palpatine had with Anakin in the Opera scene in ROTS that the Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way. Both camps have no compulsion taking a life for there own well-defined means. This is what makes STAR WARS badass Lucas really did create a masterpiece of storytelling, Is TLJ perfect? NO! However, I can at the very least wrap my brain around what Rian Johnson was "trying to convey" albeit with poor execution...or lack thereof seeing how Luke at the last second didn't go through with the act of executing showing he still had not reached the level of clarity, and was indeed too old to have been trained as a Jedi and unable to come to grasp with the weight and responsibility a Jedi Knight must carry, which is why attachments are forbidden!
As realistic as the whole Luke and Ben scene were, the fact remains is that Luke was written to have suddenly about to consider striking his student who is his sister's son, without some way of showing that somebody was messing with Luke's head. That and Luke had faced that same seemingly unstoppable force that he faced with Darth Vader, and we all know what that guy did before Luke even met him. Those few things could have been written better, except they were throwing something at the wall and see if it sticks to make it as realistic as possible to show that Luke had vulnerabilities and not this unflawed and incorruptible figure. Yet they failed to realize that Luke even in the E.U. also had his challenges before he even stepped to be a well-known Jedi. He struggled even considering being a teacher which caused some problems before that point. This stuff was going on way before the Sequel Trilogy came out and the series was given more expanse history after the movies aired that was going into decades via books, video games, and so forth. My reasons for not liking the Sequel Trilogy is Rian Johonson, K.K., and J.J. Abrams failing to get some more source material before winging the script that was ultimately used in the movies. They made the "Star Wars" they wanted to make and booted George Lucas out the moment he tried to work with them after giving them the rights. They knew nothing about the series outside of the movies, and they went forward at the expense of what could have been great moments had they took time to work them out and give both new and old characters a chance to shine, much better than what was released. We could have a moment of Luke, Solo, and Leia in the final film finally together (although I wonder if Leia would have lived long enough in better circumstances since her mother passed away). We could have had Finn had his moment of finally stepping up to being a hero, force sensitive or no, but not after getting his rear kicked by his own former commander which would let him know he would really need to get better as a fighter. We could have had a lot more that could have made this movie more watchable. But what could have been we will never witness because Disney did Lucas dirty (although to be fair, it is on him for trying to associate with Disney) and decided to do a "Star Wars" film and tried to be George Lucas who by the way, did everything in his abilities to ensure that his independent films will be at the way he envisioned way before this point. 20th Century Fox got in his way, and he had to fight them. K.K. and a few others lacked that kind of drive Lucas had in his prime, so for them to act like they could make a film better than George Lucas can't be compared to. I won't make fun of people liking the sequel trilogy, but I hope they understand me and other dissenters as to why we dislike this trilogy. We have valid reasons to disliking it since we know the history of how the sequel trilogy was made, and the moves made by Disney that disregarded the Legends canonity, and made them into the Expanded Universe separate from their continuity. It's not funny when you realize that there is a reason why George Lucas made his films independent in the first place back then. Disney showed that in spades, when he tried to work with them years after he's past his prime. Only Filoni and Jon Favreau (plus the guys who made Andor) have tried to be the closest into what makes Star Wars, and it's mixed in with all that stuff K.K. put in at Lucasfilm. I don't trust her for crud, especially after Willow and Indiana Jones. I care less about the dirt she has on whoever is in Disney. I just want her and those ridiculous as her gone from Lucasfilm. They've ruined enough.
Sorry, I will make fun of them a lot. If you see someone eating their dog's feces, wouldn't you try to stop them somehow? Since we can't enter their brains and fix them from the inside, we can at least enjoy how insane and deranged they are. Corporations are killing the things I love because of these people, being mocked is the least they deserve and It's all they will get from someone like me.
There was no real set up to all of our beloved ot characters being complete incompetent failures in multiple ways after leading the rebellion to defeat the empire. It was lazy writing and horribly done.
When I went to go see the Last Jedi, I purposely didn’t watch any trailers/reviews/interviews etc. I could have dealt with the whole movie play out the way it did, but the reason he became a hermit completely ruined it for me. There’s no way the most hopeful person in the Star Wars universe would do such a thing. I was introduced to Luke at 7 years old. “They made him more real” I didn’t want real in a Galaxy far away. I wanted to see a man who we all wanted to see. A Goku or Superman who will not break for anything because his moral compass was unmovable.
When people say that TLJ fans aren't real SW fans, it's not about gatekeeping or not wanting people to be allowed to enjoy the stuff they enjoy. It's the fact that every single character beat and philosophy of TLJ is the antithesis of what George Lucas wrote, so if a person prefers that over movies like Empire, then they do not understand what SW is about, and therefore can not be considered actual fans of said franchise. They are Disney Star Wars fans, not fans of the actual franchise. It's the same when people say that I shouldn't care if people like crap content, because I can just not watch it. That is a very limited view, since the fact that people enjoy terrible movies and shows, mean that those sell well, meaning the studios see the profits and continue to produce more and more of the same terrible crap, which is why entertainment has devolved to the state it's in today.
The guy even says in the video "I want more SW fans because then we get more SW content". I don't. I don't want just "more" SW content, I want good SW content. I'd rather have no new content at all than bad content. Hire someone who puts story and character development first and foremost or sell the franchise while it's still worth something.
I mean, I would be fine with a scene where the Dark side actually has an effect on Luke cause like its been talked before, its good to see heroes fail sometimes and rise up after, so if say for a second Luke is seeing all these dark visions on Kylo and for a split second the dark side tries to get a hold of Luke and he say, put his hand on his lightsaber as a reflex out of fear, but stops and collects himself, now that would be cool but you'd have to show the viewer the vision, the terrible things Kylo is doing, to justify him doing that, in the end basically Luke is the final drop that causes Kylo to go dark the way Rian filmed it and it makes no sense to the viewer cause we dont know how could he do that
That was always my thought. Say that it reminded him of Vader or even the emperor, and it scared him, so he went into defensive mode instinctively, and he never considered hurting Ben.
I like the idea of the Dark side clouding his judgement momentarily. I see nothing wrong with that. We know he almost immediately regretted what he was about to do, but then he failed Ben and exiled himself. Overall, I really enjoy Last Jedi, but I do think they should have elaborated a bit here. Hopefully there will be more in comics or novels that maybe show the dark side attempting to influence Luke. I know there was a comic miniseries that described how Snoke/Sidious had been influencing Ben for a while before he left Luke’s mentorship, but I don’t feel it went into enough detail.
I think people’s connection to Luke influences how they feel about Last Jedi. My wife and I, for instance, are much bigger prequel fans than OT fans. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme are our Star Wars heroes. And I think because we aren’t as connected to Luke, it was far easier to accept Rian’s interpretation of the character, which is important because once you get past Luke it becomes Ray and Ben’s story, and that’s especially significant because Last Jedi is the movie where Ray and Ben’s characters are personal growth really actually shine.
It is what it is once a movie comes out or a series , can't change it anyways but I just love all Star Wars since 77 I have seen every Star Wars movie in the theater even the clone wars anime movie I saw in the theater
I had the same major issue with that movie. Not only would he never think to end his student, but to do it before you really try to bring him back, and while he’s helpless??? It was too much of a departure. Not to mention his whole demeanor when he is found… then there’s all the Ray issues, and that ridiculous image of flying Leia (Cool idea, horrible execution)… The whole movie was literally a Star Wars nightmare, for me. But hey, I know people that liked it, and it’s ok that they’re wrong. 😁
I’m glad that some people aren’t afraid to say “you’re wrong” lol But yeah, even if you could buy all that, why does that mean that Luke would leave his _remaining_ loved ones to suffer and die? Anyway, Sam said it all.
I have an even deeper issue with The Last Jedi and TRoS that goes beyond just "don't like it don't watch it"/"let people like what they like." The issue is that by assassinating Luke's character off screen and making a stinker... we now have to live with that for the rest of the franchise. Disney *_will_* incorporate the seeds of Luke's defeatism into the character as they develop more in-betweenquel content. And they're already incorporating cloning/hybrid stuff into the Mandalorian planting the seeds for Snoke clones and Palpatine's return. It's annoying. By having the Last Order basically be an insanely strong power and the New Republic being absolutely useless, it means the period after Return of the Jedi must be completely and utterly eviscerated, neutered, perverted, in order to make the timeline work. By rushing out episode 8 and 9, Disney has guaranteed ruined the entire franchise forever.
Imagine this - you're a galactic hero, you've just saved trillions of lives, you've defeated the most feared villains in the entire galaxy, you've become the new (and probably last) Jedi Master who just created a new (and only) academy to establish a new generation of Jedi. Suddenly - you have a vision of losing it all. Just like that, all your achievements erased because of one person. The fact that Luke hesitated for only a split second (while most people probably wouldn't hesitate at all) says something about him. What must have happened that was so terrible for someone like him to doubt everything? People are not monoliths and they don't have to be the same all their lives.
I wish I saw this when it came out. I let my personal opinions block various perspetives. Looking back, I pretty much only didn't like that Luke thought about killing his student, let alone his nephew. However I'm open to the idea that perhaps Lukes endeavors wore on him as he got older. He had the weight of the future of the Jedi, and the forces of good essentially forced on him. I think about the possibility that he heard various stories of the Jedi that perished, and perhaps shown visions. Maybe life wore down on him, and he saw visions of Ben Solo repeating history. Wondering if the path was in his blood, every other generation would be a remnant of the part of Anakin that catered to the dark side that wanted to return. Looking back, Luke's whole "desired" life prior to a ANH had been laid out for him, and by him. All he wanted was power converters. So he got immense powers that converted his entire being. Also, great video!
He sums up exactly what I’ve been saying. Luke is not the same Luke we saw in RoTJ and that’s fine but you have to show us him change. Nothing about that Luke shows him killing in cold blood and yet we’re expected to believe he tries to kill his nephew? Even if he only ignited the lightsaber he still wanted to kill his nephew. And RJ absolutely made the film he wanted, just for some reason he decided to end the trilogy on film 2 and set up nothing for film 3.
To be fair, they should have put Luke in the first sequel besides only at the end. the studio didn't have a plan. Rian Johnson had to come up with a reason why Luke wasn't around helping his sister and hiding on an unknown world. and what he came up with worked. J J was too afraid to touch that character.
I loved TLJ and i think Luke's character is actually on point in it and here's why (in MY opinion): Everyone says Luke is full of hope and was willing to die to save his father and, yes, thats true......until his emotions overwhelmed him. Once Vader threatened Leia, Luke went HAM and probably would have killed him had he not come to realize he was about to walk he dad's path (robot hand realization). So when Luke, who wants to help his own nephew, saw a vision of Ben becoming basically the next Vader and killing hundreds of innocents, his emotions got to him and he reacted. But, once again, he came to his senses before he did the deed. The irony? Just like Anakin trying to save Padme is what led to her death, Luke trying to prevent Ben's turn to the Dark Side is what led him to become Kylo Ren. That's how i see it and why i love this movie
There was a time where I despised the sequel trilogy. Then I heard from the new fans that became obsessed with Star Wars because of the sequel trilogy and it made me realize, I became the Old Trilogy fans that hated MY Star Wars(prequels). I don't hate it, I don't like it, but I don't mind it existing anymore. The prequels are My Star Wars, and I'm proud of the massive universe that Star Wars that we have much to see.
In all fairness to Sam, he doesn't seem to remember that Luke nearly killed his Father BEFORE he threw down his Saber once his Vader talked about trying to recruit Leia. And in a flash of Force vision of ALL the genocide Kylo was was about to do... Yeah, I can see Luke grabbing the Saber for half a second. And ultimately, everything we loved about the character was reaffirmed by the end of the film. Again, by an act of non violence.
Some people just want their characters to stay the exact same and never change… why? I have no idea, it’s bizarre. But for some reason, people demand that Luke never change and must stay the exact same for his entire life.
No one is saying Luke can't change. The issue is they had him make an incredibly radical change off screen. What happened between saving his father and training Ben that would lead him to believe the only action he could take would be to kill him? The issue is that the writers and director decided what story they wanted to tell without taking into consideration what the already established characters would do.
@@MrGioGonzales I simply think that’s a moronic way of looking at it but hey. You can have your opinion and the millions of fans that like it can enjoy it.
I liked Last Jedi. There were some elements I did not like and there were some serious missed opportunities here and there, but I actually appreciated Luke's journey. Firstly, people say Luke could never have considered harming Ben because he's the guy that redeemed Darth Vader. They're forgetting that a moment before he redeemed Vader, he first beat him into the ground cut off his hand and was a stroke away from killing him before he stopped himself. Luke igniting his saber with Ben was not an attack, it was a temptation. He himself said he couldn't have gone through with it. But also, you have to consider the contrast of where he was. When Luke was a rebel, he had nothing, no home to go back to, no family left living, no place in the universe, and often times no one to guide him. His hope was the only thing carrying him and his friends through those dark times. Come to years later and he has a sister, he has a best friend and brother-in-law, he has restarted the Jedi Order, overthrown the Empire that killed his Aunt and Uncle, found his purpose and his place, redeemed his father, and brought peace to the galaxy, but then in the span of a moment, he felt a flash through the force and saw that everything he had built and everything he had worked for was going to be taken from him and destroyed, and the darkness of the Empire was going to return, and it was going to be because of Ben. You're telling me that experiencing all of that, and being threatened with the return of the darkness that he and everyone else had fought so hard against in the span of a moment wouldn't cause a drastic, panicked reaction? He didn't go to the hut with the intent to kill Ben. He reacted in an instant to the worst case scenario and then immediately caught himself. That's not a betrayal of Luke. That's an affirmation of everything that Luke is. He has the power and the capability to be destructive, impulsive, and even evil, and the reason he does not descend into that is because he keeps control. I view his time in the hut like a second descent into the cave on Dagobah. Both times, when threatened, he drew his saber to defend himself, but where he struck down Vader in the cave, he restrained himself in the hut, but it was unfortunately too late, because Ben believed Luke was going to attack.
My biggest issue with the last is the way almost all the potential plot lines where closed. Johnson made this movie like it was the end of this story line. So many questions left unanswered like how Maz got Luke's lightsaber, I personally don't have an issue with the cast I dislike the lack of focus on the story . I really wish Finn and Phasma had been more flushed out . Heck I would have liked if Finn was actually force sensitive
I disagree with Sam's assessment. I believe that the Luke that we see in TLJ is actually pretty accurate with his character from the OT. Luke has always been a flawed character. His one good action would not mean that he would continue to act like that, it's just not how we as humans act. Let's take the fight between Vader and Luke at the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke flew off the handle when Vader threatened Leia. He only gained control over himself when he saw what he had done, much like what happened in the hut. When Luke went in there, he didn't go in there with the intent to kill Ben. He had sensed that Ben had a growing darkness inside of him, and went in there to double check his findings, to see if it was just his imagination or if Ben really had fallen. Then, without him even knowing it, he ignited his saber, fearing for the rest of his students. Luke even admitted that it was a mistake, but the damage was done and Ben got the wrong idea about why Luke was there.
His characterization in The Last Jedi really is completely indefensible. There's no arguing against the fact that the same guy who saved Darth Vader would not some 30 years later, with all the wisdom and experience he's gained in that time, be unable to save his nephew who is dealing with the same problem.
