There are speculations now that say that the Emperor went into the warp and made deals with lesser beings, beings that at the right time, would embody the primarchs, meaning the primarchs were literally gods in super-enhanced bodies. Do you also not find it surprising that when the primarchs were yeeted away, they would each land up on world's that were specifically designed for them? Guilliman in Macragge. Konrad on Nostramo. Magnus on Prospero... and so on. This also adds to the theory why Clonegrim is able to recall all the memories of his demon prince counterpart. That's cause when Fulgrim ascended, the original god that was there was kicked out and, maybe perhaps replaced, or rather, since they have no soul now, kicked out of Fulgrim, and was roaming freely until Clonegrim was created, and his pact with the Emperor forced him to re-enter the new body.
Horus and Sanguinius were one of the closest Primarchs. They relied on each other so much. After reading the first Herecy book?... Oh.. and he killed him. Horus was really gone.
Russ didn't change his thoughts on facing Horus in spite of Sanguinius' cautions on the matter, just became more committed. Probably didn't help Sanguinius' cause that he compared Russ' personality to Jaghadai Kahn though.
What I love about Curze more than his personality or feats is that he was not really turning to chaos as much as he was just rebelling against his father and his perceived fate. A lot of us feel tortured by life, circumstance, and a lack of meaning. Many do become a villain in those circumstances. It’s easy to feel overwhelmed and insignificant in the face of everything.
Well Curze also had foresight which showed him a horrible future. And everything he tried made that future seem closer. Imagine growing up seeing horrible things happen in visions and trying to stop it only for your actions to be the very thing which brings it about. And they happened even if he didn't try to stop them. His words were something like 'they were right often enough to make him second guess his every action'. Plus he had no one and I mean no one to talk to him or help him make sense of it. And just like you said he didn't turn to chaos. He stuck to his principles and said 'I broke the law, I deserve to die just like everyone I killed for the same thing.' He could have done it sooner but he was obsessed with fighting his fate. He's the weirdest but most compelling primarch in a way.
The moment Sanguinius spared Curze was the moment Curze was lost for good. Curze's death at the hands of the emperor is the end all be all for all the choices he's made to this point, something he points out at the moment of his death. To die at Sanguinius' hands would have been the happiest and most hopeful moment of his entire life because it would have said to him and everyone "You are wrong, there is hope." And to be denied that, was the greatest, and saddest insult.
But if Sanguinius had done it, while it would have proved Curze wrong (the fact that fate can be changed and the fact that there is hope) it would have aslo damned Sanguinius and probably turned him to a darker path. Sparing Curze showed the noblest aspect of Sanguinius and stayed true to his beliefs of hope for his brother and at the same time damned Curze to his beliefs of fatalism. Vicious circle... i know!
Konrad is so tragic to me because I can see the good in him. If he didn’t care, or truly enjoyed being the night haunter, he wouldn’t be bothered by fate. He’d feel it is his natural place, closer to the acceptance sanginius has but more sadistic. That’s never been the case. For all his flaws and hypocrisy I genuinely think people forget Konrad didn’t act like this because he was just some bitter lunatic. He acted like this because he was genuinely suffering from primarch level mental health issues. He wasn’t truly needed in the crusade. The night haunter defined the culture of his legion but never was the reason it was successful. The night lords could have been under their legion master while Konrad gets treatment. They could have saved him, at any moment they could have. But everyone from his brothers to the emperor made the same mistake we mere mortals do in these situations. They didn’t listen, they didn’t care, they saw his suffering as his own fault when it wasn’t his actions that caused it. Konrad was slowly losing his grip on reality and instead of helping him, everyone in his life treated him like that’s what he truly was inside, a monster, when that isn’t true. Konrad was meant to be Konrad, not the night haunter. That tear in his psyche was never part of the plan. I just can’t understand why the emperor never fixed him when he had the ability to. He wasn’t Angron. He didn’t have archeo tech crudely merged with his flayed brain. Konrad was just in pain, so much pain, that he couldn’t think past it to analyze why he felt the way he did. He needed someone to advocate for him and actually make sure he gets help and no one who should have stepped up did. Maybe Konrad could have been less of a edgelord, but never forget who saw him standing on the edge and thought he was claiming that spot on the fringes, not preparing to jump.
@@ianharrison5758su padre no lo ayudo porque es una pésima personas, y es un padre terrible , narcisistas, egocéntrico el no necesitaba un hijo el quería un arma
Man you really have to feel bad for Konrad, he wanted Sanguinius to kill him so he would be wrong about everything. Konrad wanted his visions to be wrong because it doesn’t seem like he really ever wanted to betray Big E, he just wanted his visions to be wrong. If he dies by the hands of one of his brothers then that means that the Imperium doesn’t fall and the traitors lose one more weapon which could allow them to win the heresy. Konrads war was against predestination, not the Imperium, he wanted his fate to be different because he hated being the Night Haunter and he wanted to be more then just a spiked bat that gets thrown at whatever the Imperium says is a threat. He wanted to die as Konrad and not the thing calling itself the Night Haunter. While I’m not a Night Lords fan, Konrad has slowly started becoming one of my favorite characters in the lore next to Angron and Hawk Boy himself.
Yung Toolshed We know Kurze saw different visions of the future depending on how he acts. Doing the righteous thing in the end required too much effort. The quick returns for nihilism seduced him.
Konrad is a great character, but it’s hard for me to feel bad for him….just based on him slowly skinning that young lady in his city. (She attempted suicide, and he reveled in skinning her…he enjoyed it. So, he gets what he f*cking deserves (and actually, he got off easy)
Naw he caused all of it Konrad turned traitor but couldn’t stay loyal only a fool would choose to be killed to be proven wrong rather then act differently
If Sanguinius was war master I do believe the Horus heresy would have happened due to Horus own hubris not wanting to except that he was not the better Primarch for the title
One of the main reasons Horus fell to Chaos was because he felt abandoned by the Emperor and was being overwhelmed by his duties as Warmaster. Also in the first book when relations with the Interex went to hell in a handbasket Horus quietly muttered to himself "Father why did you abandon me, it's too much"
@@DhDeadMan It is true that Sanguinius was loved by the common folk, but the ideologist of Imperial Truth would not approve him as the Warmaster. Emperor started the Great Crusade in the name of Imperial Truth to purge the galaxy of xenos, mutant and psykers. His armies destroyed countless worlds even if their populations commonly loved their false idols. They were very strict with the Imperial Truth ideology. On the other hand I still don't know why the Imperial Truth allowed their legions to be called Angels?
@@skywatcheradept he was the most loved by his brothers as well no being the imperium would dare talk out or even feel the need too Your talking out your ass
Not the best comparison - Russ outright states that he doubts he could beat Curze in the same breath as he doubts he could beat Hawkboy while stating he'd beat most others easily. Konard may as well be the most lethal of them all, assuming he - from the start - fought against gangbangers and murderers with bare hands in dark alleys. @IDeO Didn't Konard strangle a pretty strong daemon IN THE WARP with bare hands? come on
I pity Konrad. He spent so much time running from the monster he feared becoming, only to realize one day, he'd actually been running TOWARDS that fate.
That last part where Kurze runs his finger along the pinion of Sanguinius wing in awe and fascination of something so pure and uncorrupted makes Kurze's conflicted nature really stand out.
Sanguinius fans be like: In, my, self righteous suicide I, cry, when angels deserve to die Father, father, father, father Father into your hands, I commend my spirit
Did this happen? If it did then Sanguinius may be the deluded one. Daddy didn't seem like he was going to be very forgiving of Magnus disobeying him again. But I'm not a lore master.
@@Dadecorban or Sanguinius fearing the Emperor might erase him and his legion if he knew about the flaw. Surely a genetic flaw is a lesser offence than rebelling.
@@Dadecorban In their last confrontation Sanguinius tells him that he actually saw a possible future where the Emperor did forgive him, but might cause him to fall to Chaos so he kicked him into a cryopod
@@Dadecorban the Emperor never planned to kill either Magnus or Konrad. Horus altered Leman's arrest order into a kill order and Horus sent the assassin in the Emperors name. Both actions were always meant to get both brothers to turn away from the Emperor.
Emperor said he wanted Curze back on Terra so he could help him with his visions,but in the end after all he has done,emperor forgave him personnaly before he died trough the meat statue Curze made in honor of the emperor
Imagine if it was the other way around. Imagine if Sanguinius has become Warmaster and Konrad stayed loyal. I feel like this story has to go in the direction that one stays loyal and the other falls. These two are similar that they both have sides of them that are quite dark. One has to push through and conquer their darkness, while the other succumbs to it. Konrad would try to persuade Sanguinius that he was the best of them and even him, Konrad, can overcome his darkness, given the chance. I would like to listen to an alternate timeline of this.
The most tragic of primarchs bless him,he was the the judgement of the emperor & wasn't raised by an adopted father or clan to guide him to point him in the right directions of humanity or what was expected of him.Love him & sanguieious.Perfect contrast between brothers
WE SEE THAT CURZE IS ACTUALLY VERY PIVITOL AND SEES THE TRUTH. I LOVE HOW HE TOUCHES THE WING. LIKE A DEMON OF THE VOID FACINATED BY THE LIGHT IN AN ANGELS FEATHERS
I always felt Konrad embraced the darker aspect of his existence because it was all he truly knew. He desperately wanted and needed peers to confide in, to share the darkness in his past and to help him understand himself better, but his brothers almost to a man rejected him in some form or another. If they are slamming shut the doors to redemption, it leaves him isolated and eventually he will find the darkness comforts him simply because it was the only true constant in his brutal life.
I think the emperor knows branches of the future and he targets a favorable future and goes for that and plans accordingly because plans change. Kinda like Dr. Strange.
Kruze could be fixed, he'd just have to have the help forced upon him, and the night haunter would never accept that. He'd fight it the whole way, but if the Emperor had the time, and the other loyalists could just around him with out all the posturing, showing him support and giving him any nurturing at all he could have had hope, a chance for happiness and brotherhood instead of self loathing and and seeing no way out. I think Chaos wanted this outcome. He was too dangerous a tool of order when he supported the crusade, imagine if he'd known about Chaos and was set on fighting against it. If we'd gotten a stable imperial truth founded Imperium, and he's the one leading the inquisition to root out heretical Chaos worshippers. He'd stop at nothing to make sure they couldn't regain a foothold anywhere he went.
I don´t think Curze could be fixed, he was the Nighthunter and the nighthunter was him two sides of the same coin. I think that even if Curze had landed on Baal or even Macragge, The Nighthunter would still have emerged, gradually becoming stronger and stronger. We need to remember from childhood Curze was cursed with his visions of the future where he always saw the worst possible outcome. I think that might have been a catalyst for him becoming nighthunter and all the love in the world would not have prevented it from happening, only delayed it. Even if Curze had remained loyal to The Emperor i think he would eventually crack, he might start fighting Horus but once the first few planets declared their loyalty to Horus, Curze would have started to destroy those planets one by one and then maybe start with other planets that he even suspected would side with Horus. Even Mars wouldn´t have been safe i think Curze would eventually burn the entire surface of Mars to destroy the rebellion. Eventually the Emperor would have had to either censure Curze or stop him like he did in the original time line.
Having in mind the novella of Curze in the Primarchs Series, the 2 problems that Curze met in his philosophy was that he didn't belive in choice only in fate and second that he believed in absolute justice and not in justice tempered with ethics. So the only person that could show him these would be a person that either had them (so that he could be able to learn form respect, for example Sanguinius) or a person that he considered above him (so that he could teach him, for example the Emperor). If only the Emperor had more time with him and for him...
@@Erikjust Konrad was not the Night Haunter. The nigh Haunter was simply the manifestation of his insanity, brought about by his visions and lack of guidance. If his mind had not broken, the night Haunter would not exist. It seems so core to his character that it’s hard to believe but that’s because that’s how Konrad sees it, but like many things, he is wrong. With the guidance of his father or his brother, Konrad would almost certainly have stayed loyal. He acts according to his design more so than any other primarch, but that design was twisted by madness. He was Judgment and punishment personified, but the emperor would not have designed him to be like this. It would be pushing the self destruct button on his dream. The emperor wanted his sons to be loyal, all of them. Konrad is no different
Are you going to cover the rematch between Kurze and Lion that happened after this? I would really like to hear your thoughts on that fight. If not, that is alright. Keep up the good work.
If Sanguinius would've turned, there would be no Imperium. He - blessed be his name - stopped a whole Legion at the Eternity Gate. His prowess cannot be matched.
When our Holy Emperor played Malcador, was he not genuinely surprised at Mortarion’s betrayal? I think he tried to gamble with them but the STHF because they are Chaos... obviously
@@azariahkyras7736 ALL WE NEED IS ENOUF BATTLE BRUVAS ON THE GROUND THAT WE CAN CRUSH THEM UNDER OUR LIKES AND DESTROY THEM WITH OUR SUBSCRIPTIONS THAT IS WAT MATTERS SPESHE MARIUNE
Why didn't sangunius tell his brother he loved him? Most of the problems with the Emperor and the primemarks is that they were to distant with each other.
I think the heresy would still have happened but taken an utterly different feel with the traitors having to work from beneath rather than being in the driving seat. More of a slow burner gorilla effort from the shadows
Konrad does make a good point about slavery. People like to think themselves free, but can one really be free if he is merely a slave to his own goals and desires? All humans are slaves, but we have the choice of our masters. Do we choose to be our own masters? What kind of master can such an imperfect creature be? Do we choose other men to be our masters? How are they any better than ourselves? Shall we invent gods, pointing here and there, to the sea and the Sun, and shackle ourselves to them? What kind of masters would the creations of already imperfect masters be? Or do we refer to the pursuit of Truth, seek out the Light, and find, at the end of all questions, the Father we left so long ago? What better master for mankind can there be than his own perfect Father?
Kurze so badly wants to be amiable bros with Sanguinius, to the point of his grim, dark, brooding derision slipping ever so slightly, becoming excited at points of debate in their conversation, and not-unkindly teasing during another.... Ah, the Konrad we would've gotten if Chaos hadn't football-spiked his gestation pod deep all-up-in Nostromo's(of all the places) adamantine guts...
I think he is redeemed in his last moments when his life ends. Love konrad and would of loved to see him as a loyalist who betrayed the traitors but it wasn't to be, I think I'm gonna work on some loyal night lords known as the night haunters.
The "Lord of Night" novel more or less confirms that there is a divide in the Night Lords: some warbands fall to Chaos, others just do their own thing.
The Emperor knew about both Konrads Afflictions, he could have intervened earlier and given him the proper help needed instead of the temporary respite that he had given upon finding his son on Nostramo. He could have been the Law Keeper/Giver and judge he was meant to be...but no. Anyways, in the words of the late Jago Sevatarian - "death to the false emperor" 🦇Ave Dominus Nox🦇
Thank you again for a great video. New subscriber here :) been trying to catch up on all your old videos. All awesome and I really like your thoughts and interpretations of the meetings of these great entities:)
I have recently started to broaden the idea of starting a chaos army. If only there were a fountain of knowledge and lore that made it all enjoyable... OH WAIT! Thanks Wolf Lord, the Emperor protects!
For a good look into Curze, listen to Konrad Curze. Little pieces of Konrad peak through the darkness that is Night Haunter, and he even "talks" to the Emperor at one point. It's awesome.
Konrads psychosis is constantly reinforced by his visions. His visions mostly show the worst aspects of things, and negative outcomes. I think it would be interesting if in his "death" Konrads visions showed him the negatives of what would happen if the Emperor and humanity lose.
I don't think the Emperor planned it per se... i think he realised it was a possibility. He's sorrowful because he knows this is the path He didn't want to follow.
The death of one timeline brings opportunity for a new one thanks to Abaddon, things that weren’t possible before are possible now as said by the Sanguinius that wasn’t Sanguinius...
For me the most underrated moment is when Kurz is at his lowest, his most despairing, torn between his hate and his love for his brother…. And he reaches out… and he touches Sanguinius’s wing. Not his face, not his hand, his wing. The feature that Hawk Boy himself is most uncomfortable with, and can’t stand to be touched. The angry limb shakes him off.
Well done, as always. You seem to raise the bar for Warhammer 40 K excellence. Now that I'm done complementing, my theory… I've had a very deep seeded belief almost the entire time I've been reading the HH, that the emperor seeking to raise himself to God hood was true. I do not believe it was his plan to abandon humanity like so many of the traitors accuse him of, but I do believe his ultimate goal was godhood. And still is. Everything the emperor has done, has been planned. Are we really supposed to believe that after the emperor struck his bargain with the powers of chaos, he didn't plan on them striking back after he failed to for fill his end of the bargain?! I've never believed that the emperor was so shortsighted. I'm actually writing a fanfiction that lays out my theory that everything has been planned to a T since before the emperor decided to unite terra.
I think the one that could probably get through curze or at least have the best chance would probably be Vulkan he seems to have a knack for appealing to people's better nature
It wont happen, but it would be awesome if captain Zho Sahal would slain Abbadon DaddySpoiler imbued with Corona Nox, fighting to reclaim command over Night Lords and making them more neutral, if not back with Imperium Forces.
I honestly think sanguinus is wrong when he said that you always have the choice. Some times you can only do what you don't want to or end it all... But end is not a choice (In my opinion). Konrad as always been depressing for me but you got to admit that he is cool in a very grimdark way.
I've just finished reading the horus heresy primarch novel Konrad Curze the night haunter and in the final chapter their's a brilliant passage were just a few minutes (or possibly hours) before Curze's death he has an unexpected encounter with a certain someone. To some it might be obvious but I'm gonna keep it quiet anyway. Any chance you'd be covering this in one of your videos?
The problem is that Konrad's life was always engulfed in darkness and his circumstances were rather strict, giving him little space for development. The people he surrounded himself with were horrible and he could only manipulate them with fear, having the worst outcomes when they didn't feel it; however, if he was to properly raise and educate them it'd take time, a thing which he barely had, specially with the coming of the Emperor. Indeed he believed it was fate, for he could not avoid the disgraceful taint of madness wherever he went, for it was in his planet, in his legion, in his mind, and quite honestly, I think anyone could have become insane... but only Curze had this curse always lingering over him, blinding his senses, oddly enough... almost as if it was his terrible destiny. Making him change his mind would take long, slow years around his brothers, but he didn't have quite the opportunity, did he? Konrad is my favorite traitor primarch for the way he struggles and deals with his betrayal, for the way he knows everything's wrong but can't find a way to change it. A really tragic character.
To be judged by an angel, and to be found worthy of redemption, might be the most terrifying Konrad has ever experienced. It invalidates all the evil he has ever done, all the actions he is beyond certin he deserves punishmet for, and it show him he might be wrong: There might still be hope for him and the galaxy. For a man who has lived only in darkness, violance and hopelessness, what can be more terrifying then hope?
