What's more important, leveling the crosshairs or the scope body? In this video we answer this question and discuss my preferred method for checking the scope.
I installed this optic on a crossman 760 air rifle.I have now shot the riffle around 500 times during target/plinking practice, and the ru-vid.comUgkxc4K63Fd5LglDMObu7-Bgapxp_ef0W8hE scope has done well.With this optic, I have neutralized around 30 pigeons that were invading one of my buildings.For my short range air rifle, I will continue to use this scope, but will be upgrading to a more powerful scope, when I buy a more powerful air rifle, in order to shoot at longer distance.For the money I have spent, this scope has truly been a great buy.
As one who has worked with many types of precision levels in my profession, I find that even the most precise are not very accurate. So we are starting from a faulty base line on an arbitrary location on the rifle. Your method makes the most sense though, in the end I believe the plumb line method is the best...and trust your eyes.
Always, Always, Always level the reticle crosshair. To hell with the body of the scope. Then do a Tall Target Test. The Tall Target Test is ALWAYS the best way to ensure that the scope reticle is level AND that the turrets are tracking true in the vertical plane.
I have been leveling the reticle for 40 years . This is the way it should be done.. There is a way to check this. 4 foot target at 100yds. With a 4ft LEVEL X on it. Hold the same on it. Dial the elevation turret. The shots should be straight up & down.
I also use a plum bob. However, I do it a little differently. I use a precision level to level an action level. Then, with a 6' tall bright orange 550 cord plum bob hanging at 40 yards, cover the bob with your reticle while the bubble shows level. 40MOA-1760
I always use either a plumb line or a 4’ carpenters level set downrange to level the crosshairs. I often find that the body of even good quality scopes is sometimes off. Not by much but still off.
First of all, do not use the scope vertical adjustment cap/turret to level the scope. The cap/turret is threaded and will deviate from your indicated level when turned. Second, a lot of rifles do not have a truly flat and square to the action surface for leveling purposes. A plumb line down the center of the butt works well in those instances. Plumb line for final scope leveling and verification is the only way to go.
I use a size-appropriate sliding parallel between the top of the pic rail and the machined surface on the underside of the scope at the area the elevation/windage knobs are located. Works for me.
@@rooftopvoter3015 I have done something similar with a machined flat bar under the scope center block in the past. However, I had it slip on me once while rotating the scope...showed up while verifying with the plumb line.
The bottom of the scope on every scope I've ever seen is flat, and I believe is the part the manufacturer considers "true" for level in both directions. You can use a level on that to level your scope. But yes, I cringe every time I see a video showing people leveling their scope from the top turret/cap. All you have to do is turn the turret to see it change "level"! It's stupid obvious but people keep doing it.
The light and plumb line approach is the only way to go. Level the reticle not the body. After leveling the reticle take the elevation to the top and bottom to verify it stays level when adjusted.
Neat trick with the flashlight. Never saw that before. Thank you. I saw this video and checked my 3 rifles with LPVO's. I leveled them using bubble levels on the barrel end, the rail and the vertical turret cap when I originally set them up. Before trying this I bubbled them again and the first two were perfect with the bubble and the flashlight/plumb bob method. So far so good. The third must have shifted because it was slightly off with bubble method and it showed with the flashlight/plumb bob method on the wall as well. Adjusted the bubble and again perfect on the wall. So bottom line I was 3 for 3 with the bubble and flashlight method working in sync. My three scopes checked were to PA Compacts 1-8's and a Vortex Razor Gen 2 1-6x.
It's more important that your scope is plumb to your natural shooting position. You can use your level to train muscle memory as a corrective tool, but if the shooter's own physical ergonomic mechanics won't allow for it you're fighting a losing battle. 🤷🏼♂️ A comfortable shooter is a "Relaxed" shooter, and that can make all the difference in the world to a competitive shooter ! 😉👍
@@marcmyers1465 Dear Marc, you are right but it is valid for competition shooting, “canting”, It is impossible to get good results from sniping without a correct plumb
I'm old enough to fart dust and still learning daily. 😁 Glad to hear you got something out of the video. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.
Bore site, finish on target. Level on rifle may not be level when shouldered. Don’t over think or over complicate it unless you have issues and even then it’s probably not the equipment.
My quick sanity check here is a third level - an anti-cant device. If the barrel/gun level and anti-cant device match and the turret level doesn't .. then the turret level is the problem. If the anti-cant and turret levels match but the barrel/gun level doesn't .. the barrel/gun level is incorrectly placed. A plum line and reticle projection is the last step to tell me if the reticle installation is wrong and the optic needs to be sent back for warranty repair or replacement. Once you get into the high-quality brands, don't settle for a poorly assembled optic. Send it back. Otherwise the manufacturer has no idea they have a quality control problem. If you're using an electronic anti-cant device, go with high quality bubble levels and plum line first, then if the anti-cant device is off, send that back for repair/replace.
There's some great info in this video, but something else that you may wish to consider..... Rather than the body of the scope, or the reticle itself; what about the actual travel of the reticle as adjusted? I've seen reticle cant, but most important to me, is that the travel as adjusted matches plumb.
Good video. If I’m using elevation clicks, testing on a tall target to demonstrate that elevation clicks move the impact precisely vertically would matter most to me. Hopefully both the scope body and the cross hairs are level, or close, but what’s on the target is what I’m after.
My father taught me long ago,, out the rifle in a vice,, level it out,,, then 25' away on a wall draw a horizontal line. Useing a 6' level,,, now line you scope up relative to the known level line
This is why the European rail mounted scopes are the best way to go for a hunting scope. Swarovski , Zeiss, Kahles have this option and with this system you don't need to do any of this, just mount the scope and it is automatically perfectly aligned with the rifle, you can't go wrong, only problem is they are not cheap brands.
Please guys correct me if I’m wrong. But if you’re buying a higher quality scope, it should be made with the reticle lines perfectly level with the the body of the scope which in turn will make it perfectly level with the rifle when the scope is properly mounted. I cant see a higher end manufacturer sending out optics where the case has to be slightly out of level in order to have the reticle perfectly level with the gun. That to me seems like poor production practices. But In reality, that small can’t on a scope isn’t going to affect most shooters. That small Cant is really only going to start being noticeable at farther ranges, I’d say 500+. And if you’re shooting at farther distances you should have a higher quality scope. One rule I live but on my long range non hunting rifles is, your optic should cost more than your weapon. A high quality optic is key to being a successful long range shooter
@@Guru1ofatl gotcha. I never really thought about what tolerance most companies found acceptable. I’ve yet to notice any issues with my higher quality optics but I havent done any long range shooting in a while so I suppose it would be a good idea to check it.
@@alexpontiff9763 I was surprised to discover it was that high. That said, I agree that in most cases it shouldn't be noticeable unless it is way off or you are shooting long range.
Tolerance stacking can become an issue as well. If the rifle makers has a tolerance, the ring manufacturer has a tolerance, and scope manufacturer has a tolerance, they could all stack up on you. Things were getting very good until the supply chain issues and high demand for firearms. Since then I have seen some wonky stuff released.
I have seen that on some early acss glass, cocked on the inside. I always have set them vertical off of several vertical lines in a room. Corners, window frames and inside of glass. Then try to eyeball the scope caps level to the horizon simultaneously. I don't know how many scopes I've fixed from places that should of been able to set them up
Glad you found it interesting, thanks for your comment. Give the flashlight method a shot if you get a chance, I think you'll find it both easier and more effective.
I've always used this method but these days I project a cross laser beam onto a white wall (available from all good tool brands, mine is a Dewalt one) and this proves best for both vertical and horizontal of the cross hairs.
Iv always thought leveling off a turet is a terible Idea. I always figured there was little chance that somthing that is removable like a turret was ever turly square with the internals of even probably the highest level of scope. I usually elected to go off the machined flat that is typically on the underside of the scope. But many scopes and mounts present chalanges in leveling that way. This is a good idea. That said my level of shooting and accuracy requirements I don't feel have suffered from leveling off a turet either.
In most cases leveling off the turret works fine. If I'm using the rifle in competition I'll take the time to level off of the scope body just to remove another variable.
Shooters naturally hold to whatever ( good plumb or bad ) their reticle appears level. Its pretty funny. But it works anyway at fairly short distances on large targets such as deer. But farther out, say beyond 100 yards, a canted mounted scope and / or a canted shouldered rifle will begin to impact poorly from the bore. The perfect scope position is the where verticle reticle is aligned exactly with the barrel, the exact center of the bore. Not easy for most of us to achieve. A quality Bore Sighter shone onto a wall is the perfect indicator of the bore. Align the scope to the light on the wall. Up and down. This is critcle if you hope to hit well beyond 50 yds. Verify at 50 and at 100 yds. You are now forced to shoulder and hold the rifle square. Thereafter shooting and hitting tiny groups at farther distances of 200 yards are possible alignment from centerbore to verticle crosshair. Good luck with all of that. By that I mean, type of bullet, wind, precipitation, and of course eyesight and skill. As for me, well I dont care that much, I mostly shoot under 100 yds. Probably less and barely really need a scope at all. Good luck.
We clamp rifle into hog saddle while leveling rifle by pic rail and look through scope and level on plumb bob. Imho one of the best ways to do it. No more crooked scopes.
Just stumbled across this and it's awesome....To say the least, it validated that I am not going cross-eyed. I have diligently mounted my various different optics on my airguns with multiple bubble levels and torque sequences to keep all things level......At least I thought..🤔 Welp, shame on me for being lazy an not imploring the plumb bob setup I have existing in my shop for the final check of the optic install...🤦🏻♂️ Holy shit.... So there are times when out in the field I will hold my airguns up shouldered with my face planted and I get a glimpse of the reticle and it seems that it's not plumb with the center of the rifle (this is only because I know my pistol grip is not canted due to the additional bubble level I run) and it makes me pause for a moment.....🤨 I never thought anything more about it (lazy moments again..🤦🏻♂️) and would think I was just at a weird angle and keep shooting. Boy, I'm embarrassed now! Ha! 1°- 3° of variance on the reticle being true!?!?!.....S.O.B. I shoot both springers and PCPs so I have had some reticles fail (wire breaks) and have had 1 or 2 rotate substantially from recoil and budget build quality. This is ALL coming full circle for me. I have taken numerous shots on Starling and Sparrows around my house (avg. 30-50 yd.) and have my gun level per the one setup for rifle cant and will graze the feathers and at times...... completely miss....😳🤷🏻♂️ Now I that you have me thinking💡 about it deeper, I have been leaving it solely to the bubble level to provide the feedback if I am not plumb with JUST the rifle while assuming the the optic is good from being mounted with multiple bubble-levels to match the rifle......Yeah..."assume"...."Makes an ass outta you and ME!".....🙄😫🤦🏻♂️ Now to go back over these guns and check with my plumb-bob setup!!...👏🤣 Thanks for sharing! Subbed and rang that 🔔!!
if you have good eyesight alternatively you can level the rifle and then compare the reticle vertical stadia to a plumb line for check. It is more difficult to make actual adjustments as fussing with scope rings and the like will likely throw the rifle off kilter. Definitely a neat trick to project an image of the reticle on a wall surface. Watch out for alien and bigfoot portals, however, they will distort your projection.
I am so surprized at the comments I thought everyone knew about using a plumb line. When using so many variables, scope, mounts, rails to fit on a rifle that in itself is made of many parts a plumb line is one thing that is true. But how you do it is excellent, will try it that way next time I mount a scope.
I gave up on all the fancy techniques and now I just eyeball it. Honestly feel like I get it much more accurate that way anyway, and much faster. Besides that those little levels they make for scopes are never even true which makes them worthless altogether.
Level the rifle then bore sight and level the reticle looking at a plump bob 20 yards or so away. I'm not smart enough to know if you might get some sort of distortion shining a light backwards through a scope and using the shadow off the wall.
I have found that the top of the turret isn't always square with the actual scope. It is best to level based off the bottom of the scope. That is a static part of the scope, where the turret isn't necessarily always level due to the fact that it is a movable part. How do you do that? you would need a flat piece of metal about 3"-4" long with a level on it. You would hold it on to the bottom of the scope why checking to see if it is level. Not saying the crosshairs are always level, but I always thought my crosshairs were way off when attempting to level from the turret.
I just saw an add for one using the “twist-it sticks” torque wrench. I think it would ha e been very easy to make. It was in a Pyramid Air or Vortex video.
I use a Basalt reference plate and a 3"×3"× 3/4" piece of float glass for a pedestal for the scope. Set my scope level, and then mount my rings sitting on the reference plate. but I center my reticle, bore sight it with an optical collimator, and confirm it with an 8' plumb line at 100 yards to check the reticle out of the box. Worse case scenario: The scope fails and is returned. If it's within 1° I'll split the difference, and more than half the time it's under 1/2° or dead on. 🤷🏼♂️ What shocks me is when the top turret is dead on ! 😳
Using a plumb line for checking scope reticle alignment has been a trick of the trade for many years. Nothing new there. You don't need all that fancy equipment just to mount and level a scope.
Just use a rubber band around the stock to hold a straight long allen wrench with the short end poking upwards across the top flats of the action or Picatinny rail then match the cross hairs of the recticle to the right angle arm & flat of the wrench.
Then you're in luck since a canted reticle will not be a problem. 🙂 That said, installing a bubble level on the rail can still help to avoid canting the rifle.
@@marcmyers1465 It's been a fun exploration and has brought on some interesting discussions. It's always fun learning and hearing the experiences of others.
That depends on if you're dialing for elevation or using holdover. If using holdover, I'd level the crosshairs to the rifle and call it good. If dialing, I'd level the body of the scope instead.
I would think you would want it level from your natural point of aim. Once you shoulder the rifle, it's not going to be perfectly straight up amd down. You're probably going to cant it slightly towards your face
Among the issues here is that gravity is perfectly straight up and down. If you adjust to your natural point of aim rather than for gravity, you'll induce bullet drop errors - with the error being magnified with distance.
@@TheMrMused what I mean is, if it's level with the gun being level, and then you shoulder it, it's not going to be level anymore unless you hold it perfectly level, so when taking those longer shots and using hold overs, your ballistics are wrong
If your rifle is level and your scope is level then the reticle should be level. The problem lies if you hold the gun to your shoulder level. Or are you just going to gangsta style
Here is what i did. It took an angle finder, a laser level, bubble level, bipod & sandbags or a steady rest, flashlight, dark room and white wall. Picatinny rails make for great starting points. So, stick an angle finder on the pic rail. Level the gun. Mount the bubble level and see how far off it is. Shim as necessary with something thin to fix its inaccuracy in its mount when tightened (if rail mounted. Mount scope mounted bubble last). Use flashlight to check crosshair is parallel to laser level lines or thin plum bob line. If the angle finder says the gun is level, the bubble level matches, and the crosshair lines are parallel, when shooting all you have to do is look at the bubble. If its centered, then you are good to go. The crosshair will be in the right spot.
@@Guru1ofatl for the purpose of aligning a reticle a vector laser will paint a cross for you but not all vector lasers are auto plumb. But they are fairly inexpensive these days. Robo Vector makes a nice unit. I'm still fond of a plain old plumb bob, but a vector will give you perfect 90° reference. 🤷🏼♂️ Realistically I guess you only have to lay it out as many times as the Wife takes it down ? 🤔
@@marcmyers1465 Fortunately the wife avoids my workshop like the plague. Guess I know what I'm buying myself for Christmas now 😁 I think I'm also going to work on a fixture like what Lee was describing and see what turns up. If nothing else it will be interesting to see how many rails/mounts are off in relation to the barrel centerline. Will also be adding some additional cant to the equation to get a practical look at the worst case scenario. Should be a fun rabbit hole to explore.
@@Guru1ofatl More than happy to lend you a vector laser. Once you have your cross you're pretty much set. 🤷🏼♂️ They're even more useful out at long range as the plumb function isn't affected by wind. 😉👍 I use a laser centered on axis for my inletting mill. Yes, it's definitely useful for precision set up, but I discovered quite by accident that some of the very finest classic gunstock patterns had unique castoff and caston. 😮... that most folks never perceive in a lifetime of carving ! 😳 Those old fellas knew a thing or two about stock fitting ! 🤦🏼♂️
Here is ther thing. And your right most scope bodies are not perfectly level with retecle. That's on the Manufacturer. Just like not all rifles are level in the stock. With that said, I level to reticle to plum if i'm concern with Long range shooting. If a reticle and scope body are not leveled and you can visually see the differance on the scope when mounted on the rifle. Its going to look retarted, At least for esthetics.
Just buy a decent scope with reticle leveled to the body of the scope. I tested you method (which is great BTW) and both body and the reticle are leveled.
the scope needs to be leveled with the plum line but the barrel must be exactly centered with the scope in order for the pellet to be correct at distnce when zeroed at closer range if the barrel is not centered with the scope on center then when zeroed at 20 yards, scope left of center the pellet will strike dead on at 20 yds but be left of center at further ranges and the further you shoot the more left the impact will be if its right of center it will be right of center you would be suprized how many air rifles the scope rail will not be aligned properly in line with the barrel hardly ever will the rifle body and scope be level with each other they will be close but not perfectly i know this because i was leveling as you suggest and zeroing at 30 yds then could not understand why at 50 and 60 yds the pellet would be off center consistantly no matter the wind and this was on upper end pellet rifles not the budget rifles
Great comment and something I have been considering as well. I've seen many of the cheaper mounts result in misalignment with the barrel. Once the wind dies down, I plan on recording an experiment on this subject. How are you aligning the two?
Scope alignment means aligning scope vertical reticle to the rifles bore, that way gravity, rifle and scope are all playing nice. Set your scope focus at 25 yards. Set up a mirror at 12.5 yards, which of course is half of 25 yards. Why? You look 12.5 yards to mirror and mirror reflects back 12.5 yards for a total of 25 yards. Now, looking through the scope that is loose in the rings at the mirror and rotate the scope until the vertical reticle passes through the center of the rifles bore. Now tighten scope rings. NOW your scope is aligned to bore, but you’re not done. When you shoot, you want your vertical reticle vertical and the horizontal to be truly horizontal, to do this you need to add one of those aftermarket scope levels that clamps to the scope body, not one of those ones that clamp to the pic rail (pic rail isn’t necessarily right on the money). Set up a plumb line and set rifle in a stand or something so it’s perfectly aligning plumb line and vertical reticle and adjust add on scope level so it’s level. Now your system is truly aligned with gravity, which is the whole point. If you’re only shooting out to two hundred yards, none of this is necessary, unless you’re pretending you’re Carlos Hathcock or Chris Kyle. Most hunting is two hundred yards or less so eyeballing the scope level is adequate. You should be more interested in point blank range.
I agree but based on my testing, they are good estimates. The most accurate method I found was to use a laser or plumb bob to bisect the barrel center and vertical crosshair.
I do have a question. I ran what was in the video and it worked great, but doesnt it depend? I do my firearm work in my garage like a lot of us I guess. I put a bubble level on the handguard rail, another on the action, and another on the scope cap. All leveled up. I put the flashlight through on the wall and the reticle image was running alongside the plumb bob. Perfect...but is it? My question is --- What if the floor is slightly canted? Garage floors can be pitched slightly. With that the bubbles would still be all in line. The projected image from the flashlight would still be in line with bubbles. Now the plumb bob would be hanging at 90 degrees. It would look canted in comparison but it doesnt really have to be canted. Or would the floor pitched and wall built on the floor the wall would also be pitched in the same direction....still making it perfect? Am I missing something? I am not exactly what one would call Handy Andy when it comes to floor and wall building. Just asking because in order for the it to be perfect all things would have to be equal.
The most important part is to start with a level action since everything else will be based on that. The bubble level ensures that the action is level regardless of the slope of the floor or bench that you are working on. The plumb bob will always be level due to gravity.
Great. Now please define "body of the scope".... You are talking about the turrets or there cap. How you know it has been machined perfectly? I have 1K Vortex scope and when I turn the elevation knob the level bubble changes...
@@caesar5555 There is a number 4 named "Scope leveling, you're doing it wrong? (last one, I promise...maybe)". It is linked at the beginning of this video. You can also find it in the video description.
You are right, in many cases they can't be relied on. There are some good comments concerning leveling off the flat on the underside of the scope body.
I hope I didn't imply that all others are wrong, if I did that was my bad. This series was about me wrapping my head around the issues and existing methods of dealing with them in hopes of coming up with a process that is easy to repeat.
The question mark at the end of the title, implies that I am asking a question. I also mention in the video that what is covered reflects my experience and then ask for the viewer's experience. It was intended to start a conversation.
