I might try this on Shyvana. Since every jungler is going for Grubs first instead of dragon I could do the reverse clear, always have camps up, and get dragon safely. Plus Shyvana's ganks aren't all that great so I might even be able to invade the enemy jungle too after my first item completion
Yeah - I call it the Grub path but realistically, being done with all your camps and level 5 at 5:00 timer is generally just a good spot to be in at the moment. Even if you're saccing Grubs, you can potentially do drake, gank/dive enemy bot, or invade the camps the enemy jungler left up, without having to leave your own camps uncleared. It has conditionals regardless of when and why you run it, but let me know how it goes!
@@Phylaris for sure! That said ik I'm not a good enough jungler yet with my clear speeds. I need to get better at kiting to make the most use out of it
I was thinking the same thing. Have you had a chance to try it out yet? It would be great to hear about your experience with choosing runes (especially the small ones) and about buying early, as well as pumping skills at the first three levels.
So glad to see you back Phylaris - big fan and very appreciative of your work since you first appeared at Neace's bootcamps. Maybe you should consider running your own for just jungle. I know you put in enough work with Neace's to do one.
It's good to see you're back! Somehow I didn't see your videos until now. I've tried this path in practice tool with Graves and Lillia but I'm always 10-15 seconds late for crabs. Maybe I'llget the time down with some practice. At any rate, this video has given me some inspiration to try more diverse pathing again and have more fun in the jungle. Lately I mostly full cleared on my first rotation with the occassional free gank in-between quadrants or 3/4 camp clears on tank junglers.
If you're very late for crab, either the path isn't applicable for your champion (Graves is too slow), your clearing needs work, or you can just recall after Krugs and skip the crab, since first crab isn't that valuable.
Points to add: You can skip scuttle entirely if you want to get a gank off or you are shoved off by enemy priority and still get level 5 off the second 3 camp clear. If you ARE able to get a scuttle, clearing the grubs and your krugs gives you level 6 after a base.
Glad to see you are back! Personally I'm a big fan of the dark seal path where you get to scuttle with a dark seal at lvl 4 (you can do it with champs like voli, diana, gwen, and some more) but as a lillia player it seems really good to try
@alessandropierro8160 Not many champs can do it before scuttle spawns, the path is: Raptors - Golems - Red - Recall for dark seal (or another cheap item) - Wolves - Grump - Blue
@@PixelCreep it seems a lot harder with briar, the best i could do is 3:35 with a Raptors-Red-Golems-Recall for sword-Wolves-Grump-Blue path, but someone with perfect clear might be able to make it to scuttle in time, i dont recommend tho since the slightest error will ruin the clear
Glad to see you're barack. Also this is a really nice strategy, super big payoff if it works but it has a ton of variables that can screw it up. Also also this patch made it so the restart game button on the practice tool also resets the game timer so now I can practice my clears however much i want. Also also also balls
Yep. It's a really specific clear; there are multiple pros and cons that I didn't mention here since I didn't want to make the video too complicated. Vision, invades, weakside/strongside, etc. play a large part in when you'd want to run or avoid this kind of path. I only use it now and then, but I think it's good to know all available options. It helps that it presents a secondary route from typical Raptor/Wolf openings, so that you have multiple flex paths from the same starting camps.
Cool path, the only extra downside I can see is that the scuttle crab will be taken at the grubs by the enemy. So doing this on hecarim would show your location which could leave you vulnerable if you lack top/mid lane prios.
Losing top crab is for sure a consideration, but it's good to keep in mind you're not by any means guaranteed to win a fight for top crab even if you path up first rotation. If you have a significant early power advantage topside, I don't think it makes sense to go for the Grub path when you can simply fullclear upwards, play off your strong lanes and ensure they can safely get good crash and recall timers off, then sequence back up and simply win the Grub fight off of your advantageous solos. If you have a hard-losing topside, I would never path to play for Grubs in the first place, whether that be fullclearing towards top or the Grub path. I'd just clear down and look to handshake Drake or a bot dive on the Grub timer. If you have a fairly neutral, or slightly losing topside 3v3, that's when I'd consider the Grub path personally. Rather than flipping a 40/60 or 50/50 fight for top crab, you can Grub path, secure your botlane a good recall off your proximity at bot crab to set up potential support move on Grub timer, and secure yourself a level 5 advantage + good sequencing heading into Grubs on spawn.
Nice to see you back Phylaris! Missed you especially with this new season and having to figure out stuff on my own. I learned a lot from you and Neace! Have you heard anything from him? Hope he's doing well and returns soon. I need to see more high elo students getting yelled at for having a big ego!! Cheers!
Very interesting what I havr found also somewhat works is a no back 1.5 full clear I have done this with nocturn since he has good speed in the jungle with q but you can full clear at the start and go scuttle bot scuttle krugs again because they spawn when you walk back. Crows, recall, get tiamat, and then wolves gromp and i arrive at grubs like 2 seconds after they spawn so even if I find the enemy jungle at their spawn im already a level over with tiamat. The trick is just using his q for speed all the time off cooldown to race back to krugs. Even going through the midlane which also builds pressure
which shards do u use? my clear is like 5s slower at peak and I'm thinking is this a shard diff? is the new movement speed shard vs adaptive make negative difference for first clears on Heca? and I also use haste in first slot because I feel like build I use lack haste more than ad I could test it on practice but I'm currently away from home so maybe u will respond earlier :D
sweet vid! I have been doing something similar being rapts, krug, red, wolf, gromp, blue, scuttle, rapts, krug, reset w/ 1300 gold. grubs full clear down bot gank. Demoed this in my last vid claiming triforce > hexplate on noc lol This def arrives on grubs a little faster, but with less gold spent. Good to have another clear in the playbook :)
Ya I do the standard Rap>Krug farm open into Grubs sometimes. That one enters a bit late if you want to be level 5 since you need to grab a camp first before you head to Grubs, but it's great if your jungler really wants an ~1100 base. I think Triforce is very mediocre on Nocturne. He has some of the lowest base AD of any melee champion, and has long cooldowns that make Sheen items pretty suboptimal on him. I think if you don't like Hexplate rush (valid, it's not strong when you aren't ulting into a fight), Eclipse rush is something multiple high elo Noc mains like Autophil have been doing instead.
@@Phylaris awesome, I'll check out that build path and look into autophil. I agree that it is an awkward item for him. When checking the damage using Lethal tempo at lvl 6 I found triforce ult did more damage than hexplate for the first 3 seconds, and again more damage after 6, but hexplate did more from the 3s to 6s range, but the diff was grudge > bruiser items, but keeping LT instead of electrocute. I feel way more powerful but come 25 mins I am missing the hp
@@Kywu when looping back on rapts as they spawn if you go red first then you will have to wait 15 seconds for krugs or so. If you recall in that down time then your top is up so you have to skip krugs putting you down a camp from inefficient sequencing. Good question, it used to confuse me too :)
Sounds good, but I can't seem to recreate hitting Grubs on spawn if I go for the botside crab - if I skip it, I barely make it. This goes for Diana and Vi. Are they just a lot slower than Brand/Hecarim?
Vi absolutely should not go for this path. She's a very slow-clearing jungler early with mediocre AOE, and is very slow at Grubs too. Diana should be a little slower than Hecarim on this path - not too bad, but she will be slightly late to crab.
i really struggle to get this clear in time as lillia, im consistently about 5-10 seconds late to crab and therefore late for grubs. is it still worth?
Most of the fullclear junglers can run it situationally, though some will be late to crab and should consider skipping it and recalling instead, to avoid being late to Raps respawn.
Nah Karthus for sure would just want to Blue->Krugs most of the time, and either invade enemy jungle on his Blue/Gromp if the situation allows, or recall for items and run to crab to fistfight with his item lead.
Ahoi ! Lillia main here. Tbh, I got interested by what you said, but I feel that the 1st grubs are not worth for Lillia unless it is free.. Right ? So, I wouldn't go for this at all. I feel like as long as she gets at least 2/6 of them, it doesn't matter if it's first or second grubs. But idk ?
You don't get level 5 from a FC>crab into single quadrant - you'll be level 4 entering Grubs. You'll also have split spawns with your botside camps sitting there, which in addition to being inefficient can also lead to them being stolen. You can't just vertical simply because your bot camps are taken - if the enemy jungler also pathed top to bot, there's nothing for you to trade for as his second spawn topside is already gone. This is not at all to say that fullclearing top to bot is worse than the Grub path - they just have very different pros, cons, and usage cases.
@@Phylaristhanks! so... im only bronze... how do you tell whether your team is splitpush or 5v5 deathball? i know yorick is splitpush, but thats about it
She's a bit slow and may have to skip crab to hit the intervals properly. Bel would rather play for early gank/invade flexibility, though. She's not really an early powerfarmer - she's alright with it if there's no good options, but her preferred option is to find some action.
Udyr, Lillia, etc. do them just as quickly. I do think Hecarim is great along this path, but I actually think some of his standard pathing options are stronger than this most of the time. He fullclears Blue to Krugs in ~3:00 leashless, so he can just insta-recall and sprint to crab to contest it with items Karthus-style. That's the opening I do most often on him at the moment.
@@Phylaris I see. Side note, do you think hecarim is strong rn? I’ve been having success with the same build as last szn with phaserush and shojin eclipse core or conqueror with trinity shojin frozen heart core depending on game but I feel like his damage is pretty underwhelming. What are you running on him rn?
@@bany8501 I think he's decent but not great. His main items lost a decent amount of AH. Regardless of whether he's going bruiser or assassin, he lost a step. He doesn't synergize with the current lethality items as well as he did with S13 Ghostblade/Duskblade, and his bruiser builds are for the most part just weaker versions of the Stridebreaker/Sunderer bruiser builds from last season. There's lots of Hec builds you can opt for at the moment, but for the most part I just run Shojin-Eclipse into flex. In Patch 14.3 in a few weeks, the Sundered Sky bug is getting fixed and Eclipse is getting nerfed, so Sundered will probably just replace Eclipse as his non-Triforce core. Some kind of Conq Tri-Sundered build might also feel okay, since it can be kind of difficult to proc Sundered effectively in teamfights without a bit of attack speed.
another big problem on this path I see is that you leave the top scuttle to the other jungle always, so he always will have vision of you comming in the baron pit, unless u can jump the wall (pin jump plant is not alive yet)
If you search through the comments a little bit there's a couple similar ones where I addressed the pros/cons of this. But you're correct - giving top crab is a consideration in when you should/shouldn't attempt the path. You're mostly looking to sac it when it would've been unlikely for you to get it in the first place, due to early topside power deificit.
In My server usually the opposite jungler always fight for grubs as well... So... If You path like that... You lose topside crab, SO if You go on grubs, the other team Will know cuz You go for the botside one. So how You manage to do grubs with the crab visión of the opposite team? Ty
Losing top crab is for sure a consideration, but it's good to keep in mind you're not by any means guaranteed to win a fight for top crab even if you path up first rotation. If you have a significant early power advantage topside, I don't think it makes sense to go for the Grub path when you can simply fullclear upwards, play off your strong lanes and ensure they can safely get good crash and recall timers off, then sequence back up and simply win the Grub fight off of your advantageous solos. If you have a hard-losing topside, I would never path to play for Grubs in the first place, whether that be fullclearing towards top or the Grub path. I'd just clear down and look to handshake Drake or a bot dive on the Grub timer. If you have a fairly neutral, or slightly losing topside 3v3, that's when I'd consider the Grub path personally. Rather than flipping a 40/60 or 50/50 fight for top crab, you can Grub path, secure your botlane a good recall off your proximity at bot crab to set up potential support move on Grub timer, and secure yourself a level 5 advantage + good sequencing heading into Grubs on spawn. That should hopefully be enough of a power advantage that the enemy having vision on Grubs doesn't matter.
Its kind of cool, but whatever your intended objective is, the other jungler will have that scuttle taken and know what you are doing. Which will give them the opportunity to either gank you there or take the other objective. Even full clear junglers can look for a gank early and this removes that possibility.
you have time to gank/base after 3rd or 4th camp bc getting crab on spawn does not contribute to getting level 5 in time for grubs. if you opt for base you usually have enough time to take the other crab. if you opt for gank you might lose double crab but obviously you are better off with a kill. if enemy starts same side as you you can also invade enemy krugs after you kill blue and base in time for crab spawn.
The two potential gank/cover timers are after Blue, and right after Krugs instead of doing crab yeah. And yep, the crab is not necessary for getting level 5. Still nice to grab one of course, but as you said, if there's a free kill that's a lot better than a crab.
I see another potential problem with this path. Let's say you on the blue side like in this video and do this path then you will end up at the dragon scuttle at 3:30. However, if your opponent start on their blue buff then they will have the grubs scuttle so you'll be seen while doing the grubs at 5:00. Since the scuttle now spawns at 3:32 and takes 5-15 seconds to kill (depends on smite) and the vision last for 90 seconds.
