I'm sure I'll be one of many that join, with some of the subscription going to charity everyone is a winner! Thanks again Alan for all the time and hard work inc honesty that goes into your videos. Did you do your training with Derek of Tomkat gas training? Can't remember if it was you or another well known plumbering / gas engineer youtuber.
@@waynenixon729 I will add you posts in the community section going forward. We can all work as a team to do video that people want. Thanks again. ru-vid.comcommunity
Allen, you do some cracking work for communities and help out gas engineers to. All round good egg. Happy to chuck a few coffee's over. Keep on going pal.
I have fitted secondary pumps on systems using electronic body detectors in bathrooms. The pump is only on when someone walks in. This saves a wedge in heating bills as secondary circulation on a timer is continually dragging heat out of the cylinder. A great idea for just the far reaches of a H&C water installation. Great for domestic houses. As it is not continuous circulation (it is on demand) plastic barrier pipe can be used.
@@elwittinio2865 Legionella predominately lives in the cool stored water in the cylinder. When heated over 60C it goes away. So you heat up the cylinder, as per normal.
thanks .... needed to self install a large cylinder (on a boat) and first time ever come across secondary return. thankyou, nice and clear explanation , got it straight away. Unfortunately not practicable in this particular situation due to lack of access to add further pipework, instead fed a 15mm feed (10 metres long) down the inside of the existing 22mm run to reduce the water wastage (more important than flow rate here)
After wasting so much of my (long) life waiting for hot water to appear, and learning about this system as a child (and also that most of Scandinavia have always done it like this), I've always wondered why it's not done more often. Just the extra cost, I guess... but so much better than all that water going to waste while you wait for the hot. Great video!
I work in the commercial sector Allen and I’m seeing more returns being added to the cold water supply. This is due to new buildings being so airtight and heat efficient that it is warming up the cold water in the pipes, even when insulated.
See this all the time being in the commercial sector only ever seen it twice in houses and one of them actually fitted a towel rail on the hot water system 😄
You can install towel rails on the secondary return if they are suitable, I have come across this myself. I believe they have to be made from brass and very expensive
Many old houses in the UK, probably millions, have water pipes running through and/or buried in walls and in concrete slabs. When you draw hot water you lose a lot of heat into the slab, and with recirculation you lose even more heat even when you are not using the bath/shower/whatever. Maybe an idea to have a thorough inspection carried out before installing recirculation.
I have a hot water return on my unvented cylinder, annoyingly the people who fitted it put it from a t-section of the regular return and it just had the regular pump running constantly for a 80cm piece of pipework! Obvs knackered the pump.
I destratify all my cylinder installs. Tee of the secondary return to the drain off with another tee and link the two. I used to fit a pump but have found it is very good to create its own convection currents and destratification is achieved naturally. Been doing this for 16 years and always works. If there is not a secondary return I tee off the hot outlet to the cold feed and it does the jod too👍👍👍
Was useful thanks. But this system needs top-quality insulation to help reduce wastage all ready found with unvented systems compared to combi systems. Will be nice to see a video highlighting the best insulation, both from a heat and sound perspective, available in the market.
Worked on a barn conversation with another contractor, wouldn't agree to lag the secondary return or the fact that you can't run it in poly pipe, has to be in copper. Walked off the job
Great video Allen! Couple of questions. What is the purpose of the check valve and where would it need to go? Inbetween the pump and cylinder or before the pump? Are gate values enough to isolate the pump if it needed to be serviced or replaced or would an additional isolated valve be required? Final question you mentioned perhaps needing a largeer expansion vessel what determines whether a larger one is required or not?
Hi Alan, I have just installed a secondary circuit on my gravity system but when i start the pump on the lowest setting it blows water into the header tank which is only about 2 feet above the cylinder because of a low roof, is there anything i could do to prevent this as i can't leave the new circuit connected, Thanks
I have one of the recirculators that uses the cold line. I want to use it and run it's own circulation line. I don't think my hot water heater has that inlet recirculating line like your drawing. How would I do it to work?
Can you do a video for multiple say 10+ out let’s on different floor levels all more than 6 meters apart, by my thinking you would then install tees as close to each outlet would a non return valve be needed on each primary where the tee comes off ? As essentially your going to having multiple small loops coming back into the secondary return main line back to the cylinder ?
My hot water tank is in the garage and they have installed one of these. My question is should this be on continuously? What is the best speed , mine is a archergas system with 3 settings. Would i cause any problems by having it on continuously? Many thanks
Do you know about any hot water recirculation solution for UK without dedicated hot water return pipe. Danfoss does a solution but it seems to be dedicated for US market. Not sure if that could be used in the uk
I had a secondary return system installed, however, the plumber failed to insulate the pipes and the system loses heat within 20-30 mins of running, meaning huge bills keeping the water hot. I've had to turn it off. The plumber says insulation wouldn't have made any difference. That's not what I'm reading.
I was nagging my primary contractual employer (an entertainment business) for permission to replace a 2ndary dhw pump for three months. Yer see, all specific purchases over £50 have to approved by the management. Those pumps are not cheap!! Then the external water safe guys attended to check and issue a certificate of conformity and bollocked ME, as the dead leg return was, well, dead! I got a stern telling off by the manager. Then I showed him copies of my requests placed on his desk, to purchase the pump going back over 2 months. When I got home, the missus bollocked me for forgetting to put the bin out. Can't do reyt fer doin' wrong! The pipes have to be really, really well insulated too.
Hi. What household brands recirculate into the top of the water tank like in your video as opposed to the ones like Rinnai that recirculate into the cold water inlet which doesn’t make sense to me if you want max or constatent hot water temps?
Hi Allen, thanks for the content, I've found many of your videos very helpful! I am wondering with secondary return and the pump working, If megaflow is on ground floor and supply various bathrooms, will there be any pressure and flow drop when open tap in loft ensuite? As I believe circulation pump is working all the time, or it shuts when the outlet is open?
Hi Alan, hope all is well, Please can you provide a video on how to connect heatmiser u8 wiring centre to, ufh and its actuators, as well as 2 wireless thermostats one for the ufh and the other to standard radiators, I have 2 wireless thermostats with switches any help will be great Thanks.
Informative video. Q: can two loops be made on a single secondary pump? I ask because we need to feed two ends of a long building, otherwise it would result in a single loop of approx 65m. All new install, all new pipework.
Hi Allen excellent video…quick question would pipe up that secondary return along any part of the hot feed in the house and send it back to the cylinder ?
I have this type of system with 300 litre tank, being oil fired with solar assist, however when the recirculating pump runs the volume of cold water in the return quickly cools down what at the top of the cylinder, so one only receives warm not hot water, any suggestions appreciated Thanks Doug
Hello, I’m seeking a piece of advice. We’ve 12 years old Conventional gas boiler at home we recently moved. There is no thermostat so we’ve to switch on/ switch off the boiler for heating. For hot water, there is a separate electric water heating system too. Is it advisable to get the thermostat for the heating system which is costing 250-300£ with installation? Many thanks
the closed(sealed)system sounds like its on the heating, would not have a expansion tank on a unvented hot water cylinder, hope i guessed right what you was asking
Hi Allen - thanks for the video. What if there are two bathrooms and a kitchen all at different ends of the house? Can the three secondary returns all be gathered into a single connection to the bronze pump and then into the return boss to the HW cylinder?
You can, but you also then need valves to balance them, otherwise one circuit might rob all the heat. I'm not sure if it's in the video, but it must be copper pipe too
Alan if i want to put a connection for return circulation on my unvented tank what fitting do You use after cutting hole in tank ive used one years ago but what is new version I think last one had slot and pulled it with a wire from inside then put nut on ???
Nice video. Is it essential to have a cylinder with a connection for a hot water return? Or can this be achieved on a cylinder with only two connections (cold in at the bottom, hot out at the top)?
I have the cylinder on the loft and the furthest tap is the kitchen tap which is approximately 20/25m away from the cylinder . My question is :Will this system need a secondary return ?
I've done a lot of reading in to this - in short, the majority of plastic in the UK does not allow continuous circulating under British Standard testing; if a pipe happens to burst your insurance not pay out. Some argue that plastic degrades quickly through oxidation, reducing lifespan by a third, others say that's rubbish. I only know as my builder did mine in plastic, and now I'm trying to get money back!
COULD THIS BE FITTED TO MY EXISTING 15 YEAR OLD MEGAFLO UNVENTED CYLINDER AS THE HOT WATER TAKES AGES TO COME OUT OF THE SHOWER IN THE MORNING??? CAN IT BE FITTED IF THERE IS NO SECONDARY RETURN INLET ON THE MEGAFLO CYLINDER???
No. on the old copper cylinders it was possible to fit a boss outlet but a megaflow is a stainless steel one and if unvented would not be someting could do one self
I have seen one fitted with the DHW return pumped into a Surrey flange in the draw-off tapping on the top of a cylinder. That means the DHW return cools the very top of the cylinder slightly.
If your unvented cylinder does not have a secondary return boss already, it is acceptable as long as it is also in accordance with the manufacturers instructions to tee the return into the cold water supply pipe just before it enters the cylinder. However you also need to bear in mind that Hot water pipework on a system with a secondary return has to be copper/steel because plastic is not designed for permanent high temperatures and it has to be highly insulated because you are effectively increasing the surface area from which heat can be lost. Also any work on an unvented cylinder has to be completed by a plumber with the G3 certification