Arguably the biggest difference between Armada and Hbox is that Armada adapted to the meta, and the meta adapted to Hbox. Even when Juan was still #2 it was getting to the point where no top 6 player would bother playing him without a favorable character matchup; Mango, Plup, and M2K would barely use their foxes for anything but Hbox, and Armada's fox had puffkilling as a key goal during its development as well. Hbox might be the single most counterpicked player in the history of the game.
Watching video intensely: "First we will start with Fox." Mmmhmm correct... "Next I'll put Marth in the number 2 spot..." Well I'm satisfied, perfect list, excellent work you are a genius. Liked, favorited, good night.
lotta interesting placements, although i think it would be cool if you made a tier list focusing on the rankings of the "non-viable" characters, explaining why you think one is ass and the other is mega ass jokes aside, it would be really interesting seeing your take on the low-tier metagame
Low tier lists usually end up being a bunch of hot takes and character affinity. Nobody actually knows the low-tiers well enough to place them accurately.
Hax, I think it's amazing that you're still trucking along and making videos. If I were in your shoes, I would be too devastated to do anything at all. Hopefully the community recognizes that you've genuinely turned a corner and lifts the ban, I'd love to see you back at tournaments
I think you should also rank a C tier for "counter-pick viable". Characters that you absolutely can't main, but have potential to be pulled out as a surprise weapon to legitimately pick up wins in certain niche match-ups, like using Young Link to stall out Puff. While rare, this is stuff that has definitely helped players edge out tournaments. Having these few edge cases listed in one place would be pretty cool.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--mCLxUI2n64.html I'd like you to take a look at this match. Sure, the Zelda doesn't win, but thats because the person playing Zelda probably plays the character like once per year.
@HoneyPopsicle The difference is that Zain plays at least a decent amount of Roy and roy is a super similar character to Marth. When is the last time yoh saw Mango play Zelda? How is Zelda similar at all to spacies?
I play on 1.03 a good amount with my friend, and after getting a phob, the phob feels like the 1.03 changes, except I had to pay almost $300 for it. I'm willing to pay $300 cause I love melee, but I don't think it should be a game gatekept by $300 controllers. edit: i think the ranges allowed by 1.03 make the game easier than it should be, and it goes too far, even with my support for it.
@@jetzine00 If he just tones down his TE edition it would be perfect, so long as there's minimal visual cues that it's modded. Wondering what feels too easy in 1.03 tho?
Ayyy pika made A tier! I agree with the logic behind it and that’s why I main pika now. Also my thoughts on pika are one right read off stage and you kill your opponent and the harder it is to read your opponent off stage the worse the mu is for pika. I think all mus are doable tho, just can’t waste an opportunity getting a single up air instead of a move that actually does damage or kills even.
Wobbling shouldn't be banned based on competitive merit, but should absolutely unquestionably be banned for viewership. Viewership is what gets everyone paid and keeps the game alive. Wobbling is incredibly bad for the health of melee as a spectator sport, regardless of its effects on the competitive meta.
What you just said is an argument that gets thrown around a bunch, but here's the thing, there is NO proof data wise that wobbling ics ever hurt the viewership of the game, if you look at viewership numbers for VODs or tournament streams, the numbers you are looking for arent there. No proof of a noticeable decline in views.
@@edododo5494 I don't think you need proof. I think that mindset is the only reason it took so long to ban. I think if you were to poll people, such as how it was banned to begin with, the result will always be the same. As a personal account, I can say with 100% certainty that there were more people outside on smoke breaks and friendly setups at Genesis 3 while m2k was getting wobbled than any other set that day, and that's arguably one of the best wobbling sets ever. Once it was over then the hype continued, but we all knew the person who just beat m2k stands literally zero chance of winning the tournament despite having eliminated a legitimate tournament contender. Everyone was excited about the upset and how funny m2k's face was, but in the end every conversation became about how it's a bullshit mechanic and no one likes it except IC mains. The reality is that filthy casuals who know nearly nothing pay the bills, and those people don't like wobbling. In our post-ban reality we find that ICs are hype again, slug is amazing, and clearly the IC meta has never ever been better.
I think there would only be a decline in views if wobbling won tournaments. It's like saying that people don't mind commercials since they wait them out to see how the show ends. People clearly hate commercials, just not enough to stop watching TV.
I loved watching wobbling ICs, and I love watching Jigglypuff as a spectator. Whenever you are watching a character who has access to an instakill, it makes the match so much more tense.
I like the logic and thoughtfulness. Would love to have heard more about the specifics of character matchups into S-tier, as that seems to be the main factor in the rankings.
Man.. as a luigi main I feel so seen right now. No other character in the game makes me feel as hopeless. I luckily run into a lot of falcos that don't know the matchup, but when they know the matchup it feels like I'm drowning. Totally oppressive at times. There are moments in the fox matchup where I legitimately feel like luigi has some stuff. But falco? Man, just pray they're bad..
I'd argue pika's worst matchup are in order, ICs, Sheik, Puff, Peach. ICs-pika is at LEAST 70-30, it's absolutely terrible, and Sheik is at least 60-40 or 65-35. Sheik's grab being both devastating in term of damage at low percent AND a kill confirm at high percent is really atrocious for poor pika. Pika's burst speed and decent aerial mobility, and the way fair works, makes it great to clip puff without being hit and get some hits in, and upsmash is always a massive threat, but he got no confirm into upsmash against puff so the matchup is a drag, but it's not as bad as people say because puff have a hard time killing pika too. It's just a very straining matchup for both players, and HBox is notoriously good at those. I'd say it's 55-45 for puff, not worse. Pika-peach, peach is a brick wall and pika struggle against the asdi-down, BUT at least pika got some solid BnB comboes against peach to rack damage, have upsmash OOS against baited dash attack which makes peach thread carefully, and can actually edgeguard peach, unlike most characters. Also, peach don't get much from grab against pika.
I play Falco, but I'm glad to hear the "wobbling should be legal," take and I think we should hear it more often. Just because you got outplayed doesn't mean you lost unfairly. You know how hard it is to consistently wobble a top player? Meh. w/e I'll just spam shine/dair.
I feel like falcon can't be S tier when he loses to all of the other S tiers. The only character above him that he might even have a chance of going even with is marth, and I'm pretty sure he even loses there although it is pretty even
there are decent arguments for falcon winning that MU, though personally i think it's even. falcon is also lowkey solid vs sheik, though at low-mid level sheik wins no question
Falcon's instantaneous mobility is so good, and he kills SO fast, that it really comes down to player skill. If the falcon is in your head you will lose 10/10 times. That's kinda what every s-tier matchup is like; falcon just doesn't get many s-tier matchups "for free"
Here's hoping a Samus player rises up and proves you wrong one of these days. My favorite players are always the dedicated solo mains-Hbox, Amsa, Axe, and lloD-who don't play super meta characters like spacies, Falcon, Marth, and Sheik, because they're the only players giving the meta a semblance of color and variety. Melee desperately needs more of that, I think.
I love samus to death, but I really don't see it happening. Samus, at her core, is a defensive beast... But all the advancements made to defensive play has been more beneficial to other characters than it has for her. Shield drops, better CCing, slide offs. They all benefit the other characters in the top 10, and ESPECALLY the top 5, so much more.
@@diodora2381 Don't get me wrong, Swooper's a beast, but there's a REASON the Samus to Sheik main pipeline exists! First plub, then duck, and even Hugs considered it. I love my girl, but I'll be a doubter until the day it happens. And if it does happen, i'll eat my fucking sneakers.
with the slippi era underway I do think that the lower tiers have a higher chance of winning a major, sheik showing that a solo main still cant come out with a major win
yeah they have a higher chance but that chance is still so so minuscule that it doesn’t matter. a competent fox will always make a professional low tier work way too hard for success
Kind of a worse move from an optics perspective. Hax was never a formal part of the UCF team, and could lead to a messy situation when it comes to using their name for something that Hax is selling for financial gain (the physical memory cards)
@@172rkgk The physical memory cards are more of a convenience thing, the software can be downloaded for free. The cost of the memory cards isn't that bad because there's the cost of the cards, then the time put into copying the files to them and shipping them. I definitely wouldn't say it's for "financial gain" even if he does make a bit of money off them because it's not like you're forced to buy it to get 1.03. I agree that naming it as a UCF update is a bad idea though.
Honestly with wobbling IC could be 6th. Slug has taken desyncs to another level and that means more setups for the infinite, especially on the harder characters like Puff and Peach I'd probably put Falcon 6th just due to how hard it can be for him against Puff and Peach in the A tier along with most of the Top tiers
very compelling tier list, definitely think sheik stock is only gonna go up from here on out and that in a year's time we'll look back on the oldheads who thought she was the best character with envy for how they were so beyond their time lmao she's really really good
Amsa also claims Yoshi beats Falco FWIW. What are your opinions of the Jigs matchup vs the other S tiers. You mentioned Fox and Marth but didn't mention the others.
I'm surprised Doc isn't on this list though. Is Doc completely unviable in your opinion? Franz did pretty well with him but haven't seen him in awhile, not sure if he quit or not.
I can see the logic behind wobbling, because as players get better. Generally a marth, shiek, or puff getting a grab, can often lead into a kill anyways, so for a character who is already weaker than most of the cast it seems fair enough. I think if you get into a position where you allow an icy's to grab and wobble you, that probably means a mistake was made. As a spectator of the game, I think its fine, like it was more cringe when players were worse and it would happen all the time. However when wobbling is an option, its the same tension and feeling as puff getting a grab rest. It puts the viewer much more on edge knowing at any moment one mistake can lead into a big comeback.
The reason wobbling is banned is not cuz it's broken and/or too good, it's just because it's not a healthy part of the metagame, sure there's more unhealthy stuff but wobbling stands out (at least that's what i assume, i didn't ban it)
Wobbling being legal is regressive because it's so strong relative to their current toolkit the better strategy is to play very defensively and look for grabs rather than opt for more disadvantageous mixups in neutral. Ic's got a lot better and are now more fun to watch after it was banned imo.
The problem with wobbling is that it hard carries icies. I have the theory that because the game has so many mixups icies essentially becomes an RNG win. In other words, them winning the neutral and getting the grab essentially makes them top tier if the RNG plays right. I really do believe with the correct RNG a mid level icies could beat a top player with ease by winning 4 neutral exchanges.
The problem with wobbling is people don't like to watch it and melee dies without spectators. Wobbling was never op, ICs were never top tier, but wobbling has always been terrible for the game's health
as a puff main I agree she's gimmicky. especially now that people are becoming more optimized with the higher tier characters as years went by and are learning the matchup game plan to take her down. she's a lot slower than the S tier cast and is campable, doesn't have any projectiles and relies on the opponents making mistakes
m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HNUHA8035qQ.html Here it is. He explained it very well actually... wobbling is not banworthy like ledge or air stalling because those 2 avoid neutral and allow a player in the lead to confirm victory. Ice climbers are one of the worst characters in the game at camping, and wobbling is only activated when neutral has been won, and they lose neutral to most characters...
why does legal wobbling affect the ics matchup? ics gets a chaingrab to death or handoffs in the corner, so with marginally harder execution an ics will still touch of death sheik
Interesting take, I have puff as number two on my list. I agree that fox is 60-40, but I put marth at even. I understand your point of view tho. For the most part I agree with the rest of the list
I pretty much agree with this list, I do think when you talk about characters having good match ups against fox, the same or similar thing can usually be said against falco too. Like Imo Marth has a better match up against falco than fox and I think some of the characters in the A tier have better match ups against falco rather than fox… just something I thought should have been mentioned because you didn’t mention characters being able to put up a fight against falco very much and he is a top 3 character
I love you Hax, but you can’t just make up your own new rules to the game and base a tier list off of things that aren’t even used in competitive play. I understand that you see them as fixes to problems with the game and want to improve it but you have to play within the rules that are used now. All rules and limitations aren’t fun/fair, but that’s what makes competitive esports and sports in general fun. It’s about who can do the most given the the same limitations.
i don't feel wobbling deserves to be banned either but man is it boring to watch and tiresome on the receiving end; i wish there was some way to make it not such a drag to experience as a player and a spectator, but i have no idea how that could be done
I can't agree with saying puff is truly oppressed by fox and while hbox is able to beat every single one of them with 2 exceptions on fox and one on Marth, and even still he's taken a recent set out of Zain
I think hbox is just really good, and 100% leans into that lame campy playstyle that most players would stray away from. Try playing puff against marth or fox and it really becomes clear how much she has to work for every interaction
I think puff could be on S also. But I agree with Hax that over time puff will be worse. Imagine if hbox quit melee. Not that player placements should affect a tier list too much, but there would be no good puffs, and there never have been any other good puffs
@@33kappa1 but that's a playstyle other players can adopt tho? I agree that she has to work really hard for any neutral win, but hbox has shown that if you hit hard enough you absolutely can make that work
