This video was posted originally 9 months ago, and I was so mad that the one where I tested Enphase was more pushed by RU-vid than this one. The whole industry and slimy reps lead with the big lie of the Christmas lights effect. Now with Tesla Powerwall 3 being such a popular subject, and it comes with NO PANEL LEVEL MONITOING OR Optimization.... Do you think that the lack of module-level devices will be a problem or no? Shae your thoughts!!!
called for a quote on 7/10/2024 . Mike responded with multiple quotes in a timely manner. Asked to itemized break down …..nothing…crickets…hummmm I guess I asked for too much
this video is definitely important, solar customers really should be educated about this so they don't get forced to add components they don't need. I'm a big fan of battery based systems, so microinverters never make sense to me. A neighbor had asked batteries be included with her system, so their solar installer included micro-inverters with battery capacity attached to the micro inverter. Horrible idea in our climate, they get way too hot and way too cold so the batteries are worthless after a season or two.
Ok, you win. I changed my mind. I probably would not get a micro inverter or optimizer. Especially since my South roof has no shade. I would put that extra money saved towards a Powerball 3.
Great video. For ground mount, spend the money saved on optimizers or microinverters on more panels. Then, you get significantly more power from the non-optimizer side for similar cost. That would be the best next video to make as a part two or round two off this video.
LOVE THIS ONE! STRAIGHT AND FACTUAL! looking forward to see more videos but on those cheapest solar panels, batteries etc ( affordable ones for those cant buy the expensive ones ) for a change
After a year of using solar power, we've only paid a single penny to the power company. We opted not to include battery storage in our system for two main reasons: cost and to gauge our potential savings. Now that we’ve answered the savings question, and considering we live in an area prone to earthquakes and typically experience two to three power outages a year (mostly during winter storms), we're thinking about adding battery storage. Thank you Martyna ❤ Really wish you were closer to our area and continued success on you business!!🖖
Thank you so much for sharing, and I so wish I could work with people like you. Good luck with the solar system and if you ever need any help, you can reach out to us to check your estimates and verify your bids.
FIREWOMEN: I watched this video when it first came out. I was soooooo glad someone with a voice brought up this topic. Your test was spot on and done well. Your results didn’t surprise me and I waited for this info to take off. But nope! Still many are stuck in pushing the same old same old. Good on you Martyna!!
1. Try short (4 panel?) strings - will there be enough startup voltage. The testing should include the total DELIVERED power out of the inverter. If the panel power is 30 Watts, but the useable power is 0 - then string looses. Tests 6-8 don't tell the whole story. Especially since you didn't include voltage for those tests. 2. Your building shadow test somewhat answered the REAL shadow question (soft shadows) - but only the panel output. We need to know the system output after the inverter. I suspect test6 (full building or chimney shadow) - the Optimized/micro-inverter side would produce 8x26W=208W, where as the non-optimized side would produce 0 W. Am I wrong? I sure would like to be because I have a chimney shadow to deal with as well as a SE facing garage roof - I fear a string will produce 0W in these conditions.
I went with Solaredge for an optimizer setup that was much cheaper than Enphase and likely more reliable too(entire system problem free since the 2014 install). I went with optimizers because I have a roof face that's reasonably easy to get snow off of but on the colder winter days, it can take a few days to get the rest of the patchy snow off. I was willing to pay a little more for an optimizer based system because I had a limited space to install modules, otherwise I would have installed more lower cost modules with a standard inverter for a cheaper cost per watt.
New subscriber here. This video is very detailed and it's great to see the side-by-side optimized vs non-optimized results, as well as the per panel power breakdowns into voltage and current. Looking forward to more like these in the future.
Martyna, you ask for "What next?" suggestions. I would suggest that the logical next step after this video is to examine the effects of DC optimisers when arrays at different tilt/azimuth are strung together. Tigo claim that TS4 gives effective optimisation in this circumstance. But is this true? as if it is, no-one with a complex roof needs 6MPPT. You'd need at least temporarily to build a second ground-mount support, and to test when there is no building shade, but I think the results would have real practical value. A further worthwhile exploration is with string voltage with shorter strings with/without optimisation - this will raise the visibility of the inverter's startup voltage in people's considerations. There's a big difference between 60 & 150V.
Coming from solar design, I used to have so many people that would choose to not use optimizers when I would suggest them for a design. I personally appreciate how much detail you put into breaking this down for people to see for themselves. I think the Tigo optimizers and RSD are great and well worth the investment. Very well explained. Keep up the great content!
I would have liked to have a third row, where you simply have a string of panels without either tigo option, and give total wattage production for the three so that we can see what would happen with only panels installed.
yes!!! I was thinking about it too, so we can see if those Tigo monitoring devices do anything too, even though they say they dont, and are much cheaper than the optimizer units. But yes good point for a test!
This is an outstanding video, Martyna, it is very nearly a perfect experimental approach. I have 2 small criticisms: 1) I think your stylised leaf is really more representative of a hard shadow, and could be improved upon with some ~1cm stiff plastic mesh, placed unaligned with the panel's cell strings. 2) In Test6 you don't show at what voltage the 26W is produced, and whether the string voltage exceeds the startup voltage of the inverter (which if it isn't means zero effective power). This is important for smaller installations (which I get, are less common in Texas) but deserves attention because PW3's 6MPPT may lead to shorter strings being implemented. Counterproductively.
Thank you so so much for the comment and feedback, that is always the only way for me to learn and improve. I do like the idea of the diffused shadow and I really need to get to work and finally edit more tests that we have completed. :) \\ I appreciate your input and always share if you find other points.
@@solartimeusa ....and issue No 2) Panel manufacturers are VERY POOR at giving details of the number and orientation of cell strings and bypass diodes within panels. Even though these details have a BIG effect on the ability of the panels to resist the effects of shading. So a cell substring run down and up the entire long side of a panel (the usual configuration) is knocked out completely by a small hard shadow (like your leaf) at the short end of the panel. This issue is becoming more important as the market moves towards bigger and bigger panels, and not knowing this info leaves us having to design in the dark (so to speak!). So, EVEN MORE power to your testing!!!
The question is, Does 13% more power validate the extra cost of optimizers? Bc in this scenario, it’s cheaper adding 1 or 2 more panels to cover the loss than buy optimizers
Thanks for that testing. Very useful information. The only other test I would have liked to see would have been indirect diffuse shading from a tree (2 identical artificial plants), which is a very common scenario and one that is often advertised as a selling point for micro inverters.
Thank you very much. You are great. It is really a pity. Only 2550 people watched this video. It is just a great video with so much detailed information
Thank you! Hopefully as I grow my youtube channel I will be able to get more and more information to a bigger audience! Thank you for watching and hopefully also subscribing!
@@solartimeusa for long ago I subscribed to your channel. I watched most of your videos. I am German. But now I am doing solar projects in Sri Lanka and South. India
😉😉😉Nice coffee mug swap, no one noticed but me, you said you were going to try different mug👍. For continuity you could have kept the Martyna mug at the beginning, but no haha, you went for the swicherooo, and fooled almost everyone, good job👌
@@solartimeusa a more true test would be if you have a mug with different name 😂...or swap mugs every time you have to do a redo of your lines, ( not saying u ever do redos of lines ofc 😉) but hey that would be getting abit complicated and distracting for viewers, and u could be in danger of loosing your message to the viewers.....ty for the vids , always excellent info👍
I thought the same, but the optimized panels only produce 10% more when shaded. Hopefully you do not have shading all day ie. maybe 10% of the day giving you a 1% difference. So odds are 1 extra panel will out produce all the optimizers??? and certainly cost less
Still an awesome video months later! Personally I like the idea of being able to monitor the system down to the panel level so that if you ever have a panel that has a big drop in production below the others you immediately know which panel to examine and perhaps replace.
Still a great video and glad my panels are pointing directly south. I lose most of the available energy from around 6pm on but still I'm glad I went with my solar unit 😊
Hi Martyna, I just discovered your channel and find it super interesting! I am currently negotiating with two large companies to install solar panels on my roof. I have quite a few trees around my house, so they recommend optimizing my solar panels. The big difference, however, is that one company advises me to work with power optimizers (Tigo) and one central string inverter, while the other company advises against it and strongly recommends micro-inverters with (slightly better) glass-glass solar panels. The difference between the two, however, is 2000 euros. The second company assures me that the investment is worth it, both in terms of energy yield and the fact that micro-inverters (Enphase) have a longer lifespan than string inverters. What do you think? Is that large price difference worth it?
You have to see my inverter comparison! It’s from last year, has a thumbnail with me saying: “I spent 50k fixing….” Also you can email me both quotes and let’s review options! ☝️info@solartimeusa.com Martyna
This was a really interesting demonstration. I am very glad to see the demonstration because it helps to solidify the "theory" with the reality. BTW, What happened to the "Original Video!?" IF the Optimizer cost about 10% per panel ( $25 to $35 ) to the customer per Panel, it is probably worth it since it gives you 10% in shaded conditions and gives you panel level monitoring. BUT, only if you have significant shade. It also depends on whether this is roof top or not. Since Roof top requires a rapid shut down anyway, adding the "optimizer" to essentially same unit for a few extra dollars may just be a no-brainer. If the price of the optimizer goes any higher than 10% of the panel itself, it is not worth the cost Because a 10% boost is equal to JUST 1 more panel added! To put it in perspective: Hypothetically, Let's say you are paying $250 per 400 watt of panel x 10 panels. And you lose 10% (400 watts) without optimization. So, you just add 1 more panel at $250 + install. In other words, buying just 1 more panel every 10 panels balances out the loss. I am not sure if it is worth it if you include install costs... As far as the "Video Production", I like the graphics quality! don't need to see the BIG BOLD words IN THE MIDDLE OF the screen for every sentence you say! and the "Bell noise" every time you add an arrow or set of words on the screen is too much. Overall, if the price of the Optimizer is 10% or less of the cost per panel, and they last as long as the panel will, it is worth it. Otherwise, just buy 1 or 2 more panels and not worry at all.
Could you do a test of the same model of panel with a white backplate vs black, with the same rated output, to see if you get much more output out of the white backed one? In theory because it both runs cooler and a tiny bit of extra available light the whote backplate should perform better but I don't think I've seen anyone actually independent who has tested it ro see just how much difference it makes in reality.
Bob Dylan was an early adopter of the harnishing power of wind to which he had a wind turbine located on his ranch. He even wrote a song about it. Can't remember what it was called though, !
Thank you, I appreciate it! For some reason the enphase one was pushed and has over 150k views, and this one got stuck. Will see if me testing the algorithm will do anything lol :D
You have to try Aiko ABC panels. (1.7x1.1m) We have the 455W ones 25 panels 5 south, 10 West, 10 east and in July in Manchester England our production on partly cloudy days is 40-55kWh per day.
"Now with Tesla Powerwall 3 being such a popular subject, and it comes with NO PANEL LEVEL MONITOING OR Optimization" I'm still learning everything but my understanding is that PW3 has 6 power point trackers which are essentially string level optimizers? I have a system already approved and being installed soon which is REC panels on the roof coupled to a pair of Powerwall 3 units in the garage. I ultimately decided on this solution over micro-inverters or even power optimizers mostly because I didn't like the thought of the high failure points being up on the roof where it would cost more to fix and maintain them. Pretty much everything that can break will be in the Powerwall or alongside it in the garage.
pretty sure it's just like having 6 separate mppt's, so it'll optimize up to 6 strings from your panels (usually you have multiple panels per string in serial/parrellel) so it would optimize each string, not each panel individually. It does allow different parts of your array to be separated from others though, like east/west/north/south so each string is optimized for the angle of sunlight it's receiving.
@@davidgrittmann2144 Right that's what I meant by "string level optimization" as in it won't optimize a single panel but will optimize the whole string. I feel this is a fair tradeoff to NOT have parts on the roof that might need replacement/service that don't need to be there. In my case, the design is for a 13.8kW system with if I recall 33 REC panels across different roof faces, so we can split them up into different strings. there are 7 different segments, and two power walls so I think they can all be in their own string with an MPPT? If not, and it is limited to 6 then we can condense two that are both facing the same direction into one string I think. The only difference between the two sections is roof pitch but they face the same direction.
@@JohnVanderbeck having 6 built-in mppt's is pretty nice. I don't think you'll miss out on much due to shading and mppt straight to battery is pretty efficient. I think it's definitely the right direction for battery based systems.
Yes each PW3 has 6 MPPTS and just like you said, its like string level optimization. And the installer can properly pair panels on different roof planes. So if you have an area that keeps panels shaded you can early group those, so the shade issues are minimized.
@@JohnVanderbeck There are some new panels coming through that have optimisation at a very granular level built in to them. I know Aiko have developed some but there will be lots of manufacturers doing so.
I think that due to so much gov involvement very few people design and install their own systems. Electricity is too complicated for most folks to bother with.. Even though I find the info interesting and I like the way Martyna presents it, I can understand how other people don't have interest, What don't understand is why the horndogs don't watch just to look at Martyna.. Perhaps they're intimidated by intelligence and beauty
We still don't have an answer to the "Christmas lights effect." What happens to the input into a string inverter from 8 panels wired in series with no optimizers or micro inverters when you completely or partially block 1 panel?
I thought that was answered, the "Bypass" diodes kick in... and the power routes around the "shaded" panel ? Now, if there is a break in the wire, that's a different issue.
That was exactly the setup for the panels on the right. As @marcfruchtman9473 said, the bypass diodes in the shaded panels let the rest of the string continue to work.
@@vremster I do understand the purpose of the bypass diodes in the panels however the panels on the right were connected to micro inverters. My impression was this was going to be optimizers -vs- no optimizers and it ended up being optimizers -vs- micro inverters. I am still curious if panels run in series with no optimizers or micro inverters can pass the upstream current from other panels or do they just shut down aka the "Christmas Lights Effect".
@@NitePHX I think there was a misunderstanding. At 02:17, Martyna specifically states each string is hooked up to a SMR Sunny Boy string inverter. Not microinverters.
@@vremster You are correct. I'm not sure how a TS4-A-S works but it is not a microinverter. I can only assume my brain clicked into microinverter mode at 11:55 in the video where Martyna said if no trees or bushes in front and then superimposed on the video the words "No need for optimizers or microinverters". Thanks for the clarification.
@@NitePHX The world is perceived as differences and you don't know what you don't know. We are hearing the reflected sound from the room hard surfaces because the microphone is greater than about 10 inches from her chin. Some people don't mind the "bathroom" acoustics sound.
I didn't notice very much thru-out except during the outdoor demo, there was some mild "background noise"... which might be improved with a different mic or post-processing with noise reduction. The only noise that I found to be persistent was the annoying "bell" ding every time something showed up on the screen... :)
@@rickoshea8138 that’s a huge issue I noticed when I was in California last week. In Texas we have enough rain that washes off the dust of the panels but when I was in LA last week I saw panels that were so covered in dust it was kinda ridiculous….
@@solartimeusa Thanks for your quick reply, Martyna; and your honesty. Can you quantify "huge issue"? My gut suggests that if the panels look dull rather shiny, the loss in performance could be 50% or more.
All modern panels come standard with devices called 'bypass diodes'. The duty of these devices is to activate a path of least resistance across parts of the panel in order to avoid panel hotspots forming from partial/hard shade. Some expensive panels come with more bypass diodes than others, but generally 3 is standard, and coupling these panels with an inverter with a good global MPPT algorithm will give the best results for cost-effective shade management.
I did not use bifacial panels in my tests, but I am working on that test now, so coming soon. And yes, panels do tolerate shade much better than in the past! :) 3 diodes are a standard for sure.
Are all panels made the same way with 3 bypass diodes? Agree where if you don't have shade problems on a ground mount, save the optimizer money to get more panels.
Most modern solar panels have 3 junction boxes in the back that have the bypass diodes, and I 100% agree. With less shading or little of it, adding extra panels can be very beneficial!
Hi Martyna, I have had 4 tigo optimisers on a string of 12 panels which worked great as those 4 became shaded , but I decided to split the same string into 2 parallel strings of 6 and the optimisers had no effect and produces less power when those same 4 panels become shaded. Please explain what is going on here. Thanks Alan
Regarding Tigo optimisers, they can be selectively deployed on a single string without issue (just like on your 4 panels in the string of 12). Tigo specifies in their installation manual that parallel strings will require both strings to be deployed with optimisers. This is primarily to maintain the balance of current across the paralleled strings so the inverter can function correctly.
mam, if we have east and west roof with slopes, so is it better to have optimizers on east side and none on west so that it will be more efficient when east is shaded ? Please hlep.
Hello! If you have enough panels to split the separate sides into strings separately you don't need optimizers at all. for example if you have 6 panels on east and 12 panels on west, you can have 6 panels as a separate mppt and then 2 extra strings on the west side. You can respond and let me know what inverters you are using and how many panels, and I should be able to help you!
@@solartimeusa I am planning to goahead with RISEN panels 440W Risen Energy N-Type TOPCon - RSM108-9-440N - 9 on the west side where we get most sun during the day and 6 on the east side where we get only in the morning. Adding to this there is a little shad on east due to the tall trees...but after like 9-10 pm, the sun will be up crossing the trees, there is no space on the west side to include all the 15 panels, which is the reason doing it on the east side slopy roof. I am thinking between Goodwe GW5000T-DS (AS4777-2 2020) · 500W and Sungrow inverters. If we need optimizers on the east side due to the tree shade, 6 optimizers on east, but as u said no need of optimizers as the inverter can handle the split strings. I am fine wiht it. No battery due to budget. Thanks again for yoru advise. APpreciate it. Please advise . thanks.
Bypass diodes really have solved this issue for a long time now. I think the rapid shutdown thing is a pain, but if you require rapid shutdown due to code, Tigo with optimization I think makes sense. I wish solar panels would be upgraded to include the hardware to send a signal on their own without additional components being needed to handle reporting and rapid shutdown. Are any panel manufacturers going to implement that? Would probably make installation more straight forward for both DIYers and Pros. Solar panel with integrated Tigo reporting/rapid shutdown :)
There are solar panels with integrated Tigo rapid shut down(fire safety), but hard to find. I don't know about integrated optimizers. I think the solution to optimizers is more MPPTs (3-6) on string inverters for enhaced reliability.
did you mention how the panels were connected? were they all in series? how many panels per mppt? it is weird that when you put the shade on 1 panel it doesnt affect the rest of the string when it is suppoed to affect all the panels on the same string...
They were connected as such 8 rec panels in series into 1 mppt in a string inverter. The other 8 panels in series into 1 input in a same size and model of a string inverter. Does that make sense?
you should put the squared shade you put on the last test on the center area of one panel so you see what happens... and also a test covering the whole panel...
I am afraid this assumption is wrong: "when it is suppoed to affect all the panels on the same string". That would be true only with PV panels without bypass diodes and you won't get such panels as the standard is to have 3 bypass diodes on each panel. There were enough shade combinations tested to show how the panels behave I believe. Both situations you are asking for (shaded center and shaded whole panel) can't create different situation than already tested. Full shade will obviously lead to all 3 bypass diodes active (= 0 W production) and center section depends on panel inner wiring and cell orientation. It would either activate just 1 diode, so third of the panel bypassed, or all 3 like when you shade whole panel.
Maybe it would be easier if you understood some things instead of running all the permutations of all the parameters you can think of: (1) Solar cells are "current" sources. They don't want to be connected in series unless they're identical. (2) Batteries are "voltage" sources. They don't want to be connected in parallel unless they're identical. (3) Power is voltage times current. Power is zero in open circuit (have voltage but zero current). Power is zero at short circuit (have current but zero voltage). MPPT controllers dynamically adjust voltage and current between these limits to obtain maximum power. They artificially and dynamically change resistance. But they don't do it cell by cell. Typically they do it string (of multiple panels) by string. (4) You can wire the cells (in a panel) in series to get higher voltage and thus run smaller wires... but one cell shaded means "all" cells shaded. (5) You can wire the cells (in a panel) in parallel to get higher current... but you need larger wires... and one cell shaded doesn't affect other cells shaded. (6) You can combine series and parallel connections to obtain the voltage and current output you want for the panel under optimal conditions. Now consider these analogies. (1) You have a garden hose and a fire hose connected in series. You turn on the water. The flow is limited by the garden hose. That's the series shading effect. (2) You have a one gallon bucket and a 10 gallon bucket, each having the same water level. If you put a siphon between the buckets, draining either bucket will maintain equal water levels. This is the parallel effect. (3) The diodes are check valves. With the water analogy they let the flow go only one direction. If one cell is not producing enough power, the diode is a path around the cell (i.e. takes the garden hose out of the circuit). (4) Solar cells produce the same open circuit (i.e. no load) voltage. Shine more light on them and their voltage doesn't change. But they produce current proportional to the light shining on them. And their voltage changes according to the load placed on them. (5) Solar cell voltage is small... between 1/2 and 3/4 of a volt. You have to put a lot of them in series to make high voltage (e.g 100 for a 50V panel). (5) The voltage drop across a diode is about 1/2 volt. It passes in one direction but blocks in the other. But for low water levels it leaks in both directions... has no effect at all. So it only makes sense to use diodes with enough cells in series to make the 1/2 volt leak negligible. Now, take those 11 concepts and think your way through your experiments. If you're asked to design an optimizer, what would you need to do? If you want to design a panel to have a small effect to a small leaf while a larger effect to a larger leaf, what would you do? The answer is you would change your parallel and series wiring and use the diodes to mitigate the garden hose in line with the fire hose effect. Sometimes doubling the knowledge (of simple concepts) works better than doubling the parameters and testing all the permutations. Note: Your one panel C5 giving full power suggests your optimizer is acting on each panel individually... not on the whole string. It's kind of like LiFePo batteries in a pack. You have to have a circuit (BMS: Battery management system) that works on each battery cell individually so they all have the same voltage. Fail to do this and eventually the low voltage cells won't charge. The analogy for your solar cases would be to have an optimizer for each cell on a panel, switching from a parallel connection to a serial connection dynamically to produce maximum power at all times. So far that's not cost effective. Where I live a kWh costs $0.135. My first solar panel purchased 15 years ago that was supposed to put out 200W cost $4/watt... i.e. $800. My lifestyle uses 5kWh daily (as long it temp is below 89deg F). For the cost of that one panel I could have been on the grid for 250 days using 5kWh/day. I would have needed 25 panels (and batteries for storage) for that power. 25*250 is 16 years... without thinking about batteries. Back then we only had lead acid... and they only lasted 3 years. My panel only lasted 7 years. We're not quite there folks.
Thank you @toddmarshall7573 for your post, however it’s not clear to everyone what your point is. My take, reading your comment is that Enphase microinverters simplify significantly pv panels installation
So you are trying to point out that she need not to test anything, as the result she got was expected and could be easily derived without testing, just with the knowledge you preset. Am I right? I am not a native English speaker, so I am not 100% sure I got it right, but in case I did, then I think I have one surprise for you 😀 Without the knowledge you presented and without knowing what should be the result, she wouldn't do this test at all 😉 You know, it is nice to know the theory and be able to derive the result, but it is called theory for a reason and without doing practical test to confirm it it's only a theory. Also for the purpose of entertainment (like RU-vid video) it is more of a demonstration than just a test whose purpose is just to verify the theory. Here the purpose is to entertain viewers and also do the test so thorough (i.e. all the permutations of all the parameters) that there is no doubt it really works the way it is presented. That C5 panel not giving full power with the optimizer while D5 giving full power without the optimizer, both with zero shading was really interesting situation. To explain why D5 was giving full power is easy. Without optimizer there was nothing that could affect it's ability to produce maximum power. Much trickier is to explain why that C5 was not giving the full power. Or to formulate it differently, why the optimizer decided to not maximize the output power of that panel. If you look closely on the voltage and current of all the panels in that optimized string it is obvious I guess (at least with all the knowledge you have😉). As the voltage was maxed out and all the other panels were producing around 4.9-5A, there was no way this panel could produce more current (=power) thanks to the rule (1): Solar cells are "current" sources. So here actually worked that chain effect which should be present without optimizers (according to the their manufacturers) just quite the opposite way. Here thanks to those optimizers the whole string produced quite a bit higher amount of energy than the one without optimizers (1500 vs 1250 Watts), but to achieve that it had to limit the production of one of the panels. Interesting. I guess it demonstrates for which situations it is better to have those optimizers and where they are redundant. If you have almost no shade, you can scratch optimizers. Bypass diodes can handle it fine for you just with a bit lower production than with optimizers. But if you have a lot of shade, optimizers can squeeze quite a bit more juice from your panels than what you would get if you would rely on bypass diodes and GMPPT for the shade management.
