Couple of 🥖 for you: 🥖1. The "shadow" refers to the placement of the cable actuation arm and cable stop, being they are in the "shadow" of the derailleur and cassette from an aerodynamic perspective. First came along in the MTB derailleurs, as moving those arms inboard reduced the chance of them being struck by rocks. 🥖2. the clip of the poor shifting with the shadow der initially has the b-screw adjusted too far out, the upper pulley should be closer 🥖3. The old ultegra derailleur has an offset upper pulley, it's different in its setup and motion, as it relies on spring tension to position the pulley. It's less precise, so it'll accommodate a wider variety of tolerance in cassette and chain. This might be better for mixing and matching, as well as accommodation of poorly toleranced parts.
Thanks Galen, amazing comment, this is why I love reading these, and looking at some of the Shimano MTB groupsets I can see the trickle down of this shadow tech! Regarding the B-screw, on both this episode and my other SROAD one, I adjusted the jockey wheel each time to sit VERY close to the largest sprocket on the cassette (almost to the point of them grinding against each other). From what I have seen, the older style derailleurs keep the chain a little closer to the teeth on the smaller sprockets, hence the better shifting performance lower down the cassette. Anyway, thanks for the comment dude, loving the baguette bullet points btw! 🥖🥖🥖
2. There just may be problem with derailler hanger geometry, after adding blink it can be outside od requiered tolerance range. It is quite common problem when using shadow derailler without direct mount hanger.
Brilliant vid as always. This is why this has to be the best cycling channel on RU-vid. Not many other creators who would take the time to get to the bottom of the issue and getting a video clarifying this just goes above and beyond. The comments section is always a wealth of knowledge on these vids too just a brilliant community 👍
Thanks Keir! I have honestly learnt SO much from the comments over the years it's crazy. It's honestly one of my favourite parts of this RU-vid stuff, and I love the fact that people are so passionate and willing to share their knowledge! 😊
Another channel i love for the just nerdy stuff is rides of japan. Great content and beautiful riding clips in the video. (Luke id really appreciate some more riding clips. Love to see descending clips when its avout brakes. )
I've been running sroad cassettes on my ultegra 8000 Di2 rear derailleur for 2 years without problems. That's including gold, silver, 11-28, and 11-32 variants. All worked great on a KMC chain!
Hmmmm... I've never actually been fortunate enough to ride a Di2 setup, but I know you have very granular control over the indexing of the gears, so I suspect this helps a bunch, difficult to say tho 🤔🤔🤔
To go deeper into the technical aspects, I reckon the cassette would perform better if your par baked a small 🥖, then drill two holes either end and use that as your shadow link. A bit crusty but I reckon it’s good for a few thousand miles😂
I bought a Sensah Empire set on your say-so; been very happy. I have every respect for your going back and revisiting this; thanks both to your subscriber/commenters, and to you for the update. As one of the other RU-vidrs to whom I subscribe says, "Ride reasonably-priced bikes." Baguettes? 🥖🥖 How about some cheese to go with? 🧀🧀 (I don't do wine, so here's some coffee: ☕☕) I'm so glad for your content, Luke (that IS still your name, right?)
Honestly the 11 speed dura ace cassette is a good option as well. They are not insanely expensive second hand but has titanium construction and is about the same weight as the sroad cassette shown here. For about twice the price there is a lot of durability and reliability to be gained there.
I can confirm Shimano works well with only their cassettes on MTB too, had a deore 11-51 derailleur and it wouldn't shift well at all on a 11-50 Chinese cassette or a 11-48 microshift cassette. Put on a microshift derailleur and shifting was restored
I'm running a 105 R7000 RD paired with one of those ultra lightweight steel/alloy cassettes which doesn't have the hyper glide teeth profile and I have no problem shifting. I had to put extra care into my B-screw adjustment and hanger placement, but it's working well with an 11-32t cassette. I'm tempted to try the SRoad cassette once this one wears out. I used to run a 105 5800 RD and I actually prefer the older style RDs which seem to have a smoother chain line. Though the shadow style RDs have saved my derailleur hanger from being bent due to numerous bike drops which honestly I find to be the biggest benefit of the shadow design!
🥖When I first saw these 3D printed saddles appearing, the price always seemed an order of magnitude off. £70 seems much more in the ballpark for an appropriate price. I will be avidly awaiting your reviews of it🥖
It's the offset top jockeys on 'older' Shimano mechs that helps, keeps the top jockeys closer to the cassette making for better shifts. Funnily enough the latest generation of Shimano MTB mechs seem to have gone back to having more offset on the top jockeys now the range of MTB cassettes has gotten so big...
Had a similar situation running a Shimano GRX RD RX 400 with an ebay 11-36 Air bike HG cassette, initially great shifting then after 2000 miles difficulty moving up the cassette from the 7th to the 6th sprocket had the equivalent shimano HGX 11-36 with more miles on it but that shifted without a problem . Its been quite a learning curve recently with the shortage/price inflation of components seeing what works and what doesn't !? my next cassette once the shimano is done is a 10 speed SRAM 11-36 which I will run with a KMC chain. One thing I have learned do not use cheap chains always use YBN, KMC, Shimano, SRAM anything cheap unknown is false economy and wears other more expensive components ! Keep up the excellent Vids 🥖🥖🥖🥖🥖
Great stuff as always Luke. I'd rather have options to use mixed components than be forced to use one brand for good performance. Still looking forward to your L-TWOO GR9 gravel group review.
Thanks Chuck! Yeah i really need to get that GR-9 groupset slapped on the bike actually. I'll try and get that lined up, it's been on my to-do list for a while now!
Try a 12 speed Shimano HG chain just for the hell of it. I run a 12 speed chain on my 11 speed Durace cassette. The width of the chain is ever so slightly narrower. Seems to shift better at extreme angles. I'll give the Sroad a try. I'm a weight weenie.
From my experience, shadow 11s RDs (Ultegra R8000 and Dura-AceR9100) work perfectly with...Campagnolo 11s cassettes (Centaur 11-29 and 11-32). Maybe Shim's Hyperglide and Campag UltraDrive are close enough functionnaly to allow this, and S Road ramp tech is far from them. Considering Shim and Campag are eternal rivals and chineses are more likely to copy the most common tech out there, it would be somehow strange to have Campag/Shim on the one hand and S Road on the other. (BTW I'm a froggy from Paris and home-baking regularly baguettes and other bread forms from my now 2 years old trustworthy sourdough 😁)
Those cracked bars could be used as a wheel/coat hanger. That new crankset is interesting, I was going to lose weight but buying a lighter crankset seems easier
check the bolt on the pivot point between the RD body and the adapter-link! Have been in the same situation as you are before, but on my Full 6800 system with an RD upgrade to R8000. there are two things that should consider in this "gear indexing is hard to adjust" scenario: 1. wore glide pully (the upper one witch close to the cassette), it can be compared with a new pair in the bike shop. mine RD-6800 get replace with an R8000 due to out stock of pully set (It's heard to say the pully on your R7000 is ok or not by this video BCS of the guard on the view, but it definitely experiences some harsh use by scratch on tooth face) 2. the mounting of the rear derailleur (both on the frame side and RD side) Since the RD replacement, it served me flawlessly for about one and a half years, while the issue comes bake to RD-R8000 this time. My old bike doesn't come with a detachable RD hanger, but after a few runs of RD reinstallation (by remounting the screw connect adapter-link to the frame), find I can still feel a lot of side-to-side wiggle with my hand on the main body of the RD-R8000. Then I later check the bolt on the pivot point between the RD body and the adapter-link, it's quite loose (as I can almost turn it with my square-shaped house keye) Once I tighten it with a hex key, the play between the adapter-link and RD body is gone, and my gear indexing is BANG on again. my guess is that due to the missing pivot spring in the new shadow design pivot could get cease more frequently, In the case of this Shimano just made a bit too much clearance for this pivot by turning two deep grooves at both ends of the mating surface on the bolt. Therefore the stability of shadow RDs are affected by it at an unforgivable level once that bolt is not fully tightened down.
Thanks for the amazing video as always Luke! I actually thought my shifting was fine with GRX derailleur and one Sroad cassette but I built another bike with an old 5800 derailleur and you're right, shifting is much more crisp and "forgiving". The lack of ramps probably does a big difference. Sadly for gravel no old style Shimano derailleurs have clutches afaik...
Yeah I can see the clutch issue beaing a bit of a dealbreaker on gravel... Probably best to stick with Hyperglide cassettes in this case. Anyway, thanks for the comment!!!
Oooo, you got me very excited here sir! Thank you for all your efforts, you are absolutely making a difference to the cycling community, I think is fair to say.
Wow - that is really interesting! I wonder if SROAD might have "used" (copied) the older 9-10 speed hyperglide profiles and not the newer, more aggressive 11-12 speed design. I run SROAD cassettes with SRAM 11-speed (on both a road bike and a gravel bike) and I haven't had any problems. In fact, I think it shifts a bit smoother than my 12-speed SRAM AXS on my newest bike! But generally speaking, I have found that Shimano cassettes do tend to shift smoother than SRAM, for example. They have really refined those hyperglide profiles.
FWIW, my 9-speed Hyperglide cassette has the same ramps and varied tooth profiles as the 105 cassette - which are notably absent on the SROAD cassette.
What a shocking Monday so thank you for making my day!!! Really happy to see that the comments help to develop your channel, shows the community you've grown. Love the passion and this cross compatibility is very interesting! Thank you and tres bien work!🥖🥖🥖🥖🥖
Interesting to see your problems. I use R7000 with a ZRace cassette from Aliexpress and have had no issues. I run a 32 tooth which the longer cage GS model is better suited for. I have the B limit set carefully but I have no shifting problems (although I do use KMC X11-EL chains and not Shimano) You might have found it easier to use the R7000-SS short cage mech with a 11-28 as that is a more optimum design for that ratio. The shadow design mech has to be very precisely set up to function but once it is set up right, I have no problem.
@@jaro6985 I am aware that the construction on both are different as the ZRace I am using is a standard spider design. However it is also not manufactured to Hyperglide standard so the teeth profile is similarly not as aggressive as a Shimano unit.
From the perspective of a mechanic, and rider, the best groups Shimano has made ATM are still: 9000 6800 5800 4700 R3000 R2000 Yes, even down to the 8 speed group, the shifting is plenty quick, it's smoother shifting than the newer groups, the RD cable isn't routed into the rear wheel spokes, and this particular generation is very very reliable. All of these groups are based right off the DA-9000 design, and it shows.
There's something you missed though. 105 mech uses bushing pulleys, but the Ultegra one uses bearings. The used mech that you bought for this experiment doesn't have the original pulleys for the model, so I can't say if there are Ultegra or 105 level, but if the upper pulley has a bearing instead of bushing, it would have less play and would account for a crispier shifts.
@@jaro6985 my opinion is that the guide pulley does not have enough left to right play compared to bushing pulleys and that results in the chain falling off the cassette. I'd trade the back pedal issue for inproved efficient though lol.
@@janeblogs324 that has nothing to do with the derailleur since the derailer obviously has no control over the chain when pedaling backward. When you're back-spinning, you're basically using the front derailleur to control the chain at the back.
Great video as always! I still believe there must be something with the Sroad. I run an ultegra shadow style derailleur (r8000) with the sroad cassette. And it shifts perfectly. I ride 16 000 Kms a year, I race and I'm very demanding with my equipment. I wouldn't tolerate shifting problems in a race. I would really love to understand why it works with me but not with you. b screw maybe? Oh and as a french guy, here is a lovely one for you : 🥖 C'est très bon en effet ! 😘
@@AlexandarHullRichter Very interesting! Maybe a swap of pulley wheels would do the trick? The 105 have a low friction plastic and ultegra are actual bearings. Both are compatible with eachother...
@@remitournier2526 IDK if that would improve shifting performance much, since they all have some wiggle room (I think Shimano does that on purpose). Putting in Ultegra or Dura-Ace pulleys will definitely reduce drivetrain friction though.
I bought integrated handlebars from RXL too and the stem was uneven at the bottom so wouldn't clamp onto the fork with an even amount of pressure so the fork was always wobbly no matter how tight you screwed it in. Most of the reviews were 5 stars too but after filtering to 1 star reviews I saw a lot of other people have this problem so it was due to poor engineering tolerances. You have to be very careful with Chinese parts from smaller brands because if i didnt notice the fork wobbling and cycled i could of been seriously injured. Im gonna stick to bigger brands like ICAN after experience and I would recommend to stick with brands that have something to lose after selling you a faulty product and not one that will disappear overnight.
I just watched China Cycling's latest video about the new chinese hydraulic road bike groupset by L-Twoo. I can't wait for the possibility of your review. And also hoping Sensah will have an offering soon. 🥖🥖🥖🥖🥖🥖
The smoothest mechanical shifting from Shimano was always 6800 or 9000 series, you could shift with those and have to look down to check it's moving! Shadow whilst it allows for wider range Cassettes is way more clunky.
I've had it the other way around for me, 7000/8000 is faster but for the front derailleur 5700/6700 is the ball park and anything newer is ass. Then sensah came in and was better than 5800 both in rear and front shifting lol.
@@dan_lazaro no the reason shadow is slower and clunky is due to a mechanical disadvantage, shadow doesn't have a spring loaded B tension pivot, it's why SRAM always felt extremely click/clunk as red and force 11 speed Vs 6800/9000 had the B tension spring and super slick shifts, if you didn't have that then the system wasn't set up correctly which can often even be poorly cut or filed cable ends to a kink in the cable, as for the modern Shimano front mech the new mechs have extremely swift low tension shifts and outperform the older top pull mechs, but people really don't understand how to set them up correctly, They can't be set up like the old style, even factory built bikes have come out incorrectly set up! Cannondale set up my Topstone carbon completely wrong and the shop that carried out the PDI didn't pick it up either, the system even had inline barrel adjusters which should not be used with the new mechs as it introduces extra give into the cable, the front mech needs to be set up for pre load whilst in the big ring trim position and the pre load marks need to be in line to that position using the built in preload grub screw, then you adjust the inner and out limits once preload is spot on, but also like the last generation of non Shadow front mechs it has a support grub screw that has to set against the frame or hanger correctly if not every shift has the potential to slightly misalign the mech, once set up correctly there is not any other mechanical style front mech on the market that can match it. But seeing that most mechanics didn't even realize that SRAM yawl front mechs needed to be set up in the reverse order to Shimano even after years of it being on the market and SRAM even laser etching the 3 markers on the mech to aid them most people are probably riding around with it incorrectly set up and simply putting up with okay not amazing shifts.
@@lovecycling193 I've never used an inline barrel adjuster because my pride as a bike mechanic leads me to just guess the ballpark and somehow get the shifting perfect. But the problem I've had with R8000 (this is my coach's bike not mine) is that the system with brand new Jagwire cables, is unreasonably stiff for some reason and your comment leads me to believe that we may have had a mistake in routing the cable to the front derailleur in the first place. As for 5800 (another team bike) I've been consistently disappointed by the shifting performance in the lower range around the 11t cog to 3 gears after that and it isn't the rd hanger alignment it's just like that. I guess if I decide to go back to Shimano from Sensah I'll try doing a full R7000 set up but with a 5800 derailleur and see for myself. Personally I like the look of the older short cage derailleurs anyway.
@@dan_lazaro in theory of you use 5800 and R7000 shifters should work according to shimanos compatibility charts, with the old mechs a barrel adjuster placed in a handy location was always nice, as the springs on front mechs and even the added B pivot spring and main spring on older generation rear mechs had a strong action, infact the front mechs could stretch even high end cables like Dura ace or Jagwires proslick polished range, also a good with older front mechs a shimanos factory mechanic once havee a tip to keep the front mech under tension at all times to speed up down shifts and improve the trim on the lower ring, you basiically set up the front mech with the inner limit screw so it rubs when in your lowest gear then pull the cable tight as you can (hint the park tool third hand doesn't pull tight enough for this) then back the lower limit screw off so that now the front mech is in theory still rubbing extremely slightly but the tension of the cable is keeping it in position not the limit screw, eventually the cable stretch will allow it to sit on the limit screw but that's when using the barrel adjuster you tighten it just enough to lift it off the limit screw but not rub the chain, your find this way the lower and upper trim settings move really positively and actually a good few mm Vs say a mm or two. This set works extremely well for TT and Tri bikes especially guys with bar end shifters, then they can a barrel adjuster placed within easy reach of the bars, so if they are on say a iron man etc and their new cable or so called pre stretched cables stretch they can micro adjust on the move easily, also if the front cable is always under tension the barrel adjuster works extremely well every little click really makes a good difference. Very similar to old school way of setting your rear tension up on the 12 tooth not 11 and then backing off, again in the 80's this was how Shimano reps taught us young mechanics how to set them up. One tip with Jagwire cables some have the end caps with the o ring seals these can often be extremely tight and add enough friction to slow down shifts and add tension on up shifts it's worth checking those, also if you want super slick shifts Jagwire still make a modern version of the old Gore sealed cable system, it's extremely low friction and sealed to the elements lasts an extremely long time as well! But these have instructions that need Tobe followed 100% as they use different sized outers and style of cable and end caps along with a sleeve that goes the whole length of the inner cable, if set up correctly it's amazing how little effort gear shifts take 👌
@@dan_lazaro you mention short mechs looking good, I agree, I love the look of short mechs my favourite looking mech ever is the Camp chorus 11 short cage carbon 👌 only down side is I'm a 6ft2 fat bugger who likes cakes and loves a 11 to 34 rear spread of gears 🤣🤣🤣 long cage it is 🙈
I have 3 road bikes using 10 speed full groupsets in the following flavours (Ultegra 6700, 105 5700, SRAM force) and no issues with shift quality with ztto Ali express cassettes
Just fitted the sroad 42-11 on my cross/ gravel bike (after fitting a 28-11 on my road bike) it actually shifts better than the stock sram 1130! (Force 1 set up)
The Tiagra 4700 rear mech is the non-shadow style and has the same cable pull as 11spd shifters. Another option instead of an older or second hand mech.
nice video, luke! as someone said, your effotr to getting to the bottom is admirable, this really stands out from any other channel out there!! love to see that you got a 3D printed saddle, these have long intrigued me, as I like it for being different but not sure it's worth the price hahah let's see.. also, Joe (ChinaCycling) just released a video on LTwoo's hydraulic group, so I hope to see that soon in here also!! After all the brake comparison that you've done, from rim to mech/mech-hydro/hydro discs.. would love to see what these ltwoo are against other offerings!!
Have that same crankset in my ali basket. Waiting for your review to pull the trigger! They only seem to come in 170 length and I'm same height as you so you'll be a good litmus test for me 😊
🥖 It will become a thing eventually. Next time, Luke should wear a barrette. Btw., I am looking forward to the review of the hydrolic disk break from LTwoo. There's no question we will see one on this channel!
Great video! Very good looking cassette and well explained what a difference a derailleur make. I'm really looking forward to a sensah electronic groupset that is compatibale with 10-12 speed cassettes that could be changed to a different cassette just with some setting changes because it's basically a stepper motor with some gears.
If an oversized cage like the ones from ltwoo were put on that ultegra 6800 tensioner, the shifts would improve, then it would be good if you made a video where you do this same experiment but with the oversized cage since it is supposedly contributing to a better sensation of shifting
One major problem with my SROAD cassette. Shifting with DA9000 RD was nice and accurate but when out on the road, the chain kept skipping on 11-14 cogs. Chain was mostly new and length was correct. Couldn't replicate the skipping on bike stand because it only happens when I put power down.
Maybe redundant or stupid question. Did you check if you did not by any chance accidentally swapped the guide and tension pulley on that 105 while servicing. I had horrible shifting issues because I had them the wrong way around!
Great to see that ltwoo is going strong! Have you seen the updates on the hydraulic rx groupset? Seems really promising! The chinertown forums groupset news thread contains loads of info. Really hyped to see the ltwoo rx there! Take care and happy riding luke!
I run the s road 11/34 on my gravel with Shimano shadow, but with di2 without any problem. And by the way except from my gravel imply use the light sram red 11 speed cassettes with Shimano shadow technology (but all DI2) without problems .
I use sroad cassette with old durace and shift wonderful. 11-34. Also I wear another Chinese cassette in my partner bike with 105 shadow and work perfect
Probé un Sroad de 11-42, 11 velocidades con un cambio Shimano Xt, me fue imposible dejarlo a punto y era muy aleatorio el desempeño, a veces en la subida no funcionaba bien, a veces no engranaba bien las coronas mas chicas, en cambio con un Sunrace mx8 todo es ultra suave y rápido, pero son 100 gramos más.
i have a solution for that issue on new rd design of shimano on sroad cassette... this issue is not only for sroad casstte but also on ztto casstte for mtb.. the solution is " just bend the rd hanger outward a little bit and then tune again on that position" even the rd hanger is properly aligned,.. I done this many times at my bikeshop, i pretty annoyed in this issue so i comes up for this solutions 😆
Hey luke! Great vid as always! Can you try the new ltwoo groupset? apparently it is now hydraulic both in 11 and 12 speed, and both have alluminum and carbon variants. And YES!! You've read it right. LTWOO now makes Hydraulic brakes for their Road groupsets!
Hey Luke, always fun watching your videos. Im just wondering if you have ever think of reviewing Lightweight budget tires? ive been curious on what you are always using. thanks
🥖🥖🥖 that saddle looks promising. The 3d printed saddles i usually see on ali are the ones with titanium rails though so I have no idea how you found that lol
More 🥖🥖 and another great video. I know you mentioned the cassettes working with SRAM 11 speed so would the sraod cassettes work with etap. The weight savings to cost is mental over paying for a red cassette
You can get direct mount adapters for the rear mech on AliExpress, may help the shifting with the sroad cassette (eliminating the B link or shadow link, whatever it's called)? Trouble is finding the right adapter
I'm curious how this might compare to some of the lightweight Chinese wide-range cassettes, like an 11-46, for my gravel bike. They come from the usual suspects, like ZTTO, and the 4 biggest cogs are a single piece of CNC aluminum, and the rest are traditional stamped steel & spacers. 🥖
