I understood that Toranaga revealed all the information he got from Blackthorne to the priest in the way that he wanted to bait out the assassination in order to confirm if Blackthorne was telling the truth.
Hiroyuki Sanada isn’t just the lead actor he’s also one of the hands on producers on the show. He wanted an absolutely accurate depictions of 1600 Japan, so he brought on historians and experts in Japanese etiquette to make sure everything was absolutely perfect for that era. Plus, Hiroyuki is not only one of the best and most charismatic actors around but with his world class sword fighting and martial arts skills, he’s practically a samurai in real life. They lie couldn’t have picked a better person for the job.
if Toranaga is based of real shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu i wonder if we'll see a character based off the "one eyed dragon" Date Masamune in later episodes, i'm just daydreaming lol.. i've watched too much animes and played too much Samurai warriors hahaha
Father Alvito is a pretty stand up guy, all things considered. Even as a Jesuit who's order has a vested financial interest in keeping relations in Japan favorable, he never did anything malicious to Blackthorne. Toranaga's smirk when Mariko translated "Unless I win" made the entire episode.
I liked the previous seires Mifune answerto that: "hahaha Yes Foreigner of unpronounceable name, You just said the only mitigating circumstance, Win! Will you win?"
that was actually straight from the book, just as when the jailed priest told blackthorne he would die in japan. in fact, the book tells a lot of story in "thought bubbles" and toranaga's thought at that moment was just as jaby said: i like this guy.
My courtly Japanese isn't 100%, but it was interesting that Alvito basically translated what Blackthorn said as precisely as possible. Mariko(-sama!) meanwhile, though accurate, was not precise. She simplified stuff Blackthorn said, stripping it down to the essence.
@@Bnio Believable since as mentioned she's supposed to only be student level in Portuguese. And as we can see from the subsequent episodes, her growing infatuation and conflicting world views with the Englishman gives her reason to deliberately withheld information transfer between John and whoever he speaks with (like Kiku for example).
The show takes place 12 years after the Spanish Armada attempted to invade England and depose Elizabeth I. Holland, which is a Protestant country in 1600, is in the middle of a rebellion to throw of Catholic Spanish rule of the country. This is why Blackthorn's ship is fighting for Holland under Letters of Marque. The Letters establish the ship as legal combatants in Holland's war but the Portuguese and Spanish are ignoring the Letters because they don't recognize a rebel government and in Japan they don't want the Japanese aware the Catholic Church isn't running everything. Especially, since many like Toranaga and Ishido already distrust the growing presence of the Portuguese and their Catholic religion in Japan. The 1980 mini-series was a set of movies. Episodes 1 and 5 were three hours each and episodes 2-4 were each two hours long. The run times between the 1980 and 2024 seem about the same. The 19801 series had no subtitles for the Japanese so everything becomes focused on Blackthorn's perspective while the 2024 version allows a more in depth view of the Japanese perspective, especially Toranaga's.
10:24 It was called Treaty of Tordesillas. That is why Latin America is mainly Spanish speaking areas (except Brasil). And that is why to the west from that has Portugese influence: In Africa like Angola, Mozambique and in Asia like Macao, Sri Lanka, Goa (India)
The 1494 Treaty or Tordesillas that divided up the Atlantic was supplemented by the 1529 Treaty of Zaragoza which divided up the Pacific once both powers had reached that far in their exploration and expansionist efforts. Its why Blackthorne draws a second line and also says '70 years ago'.
Yes the most eastern tip of South America was on the Portuguese side. So they was able to settle there and well expand past the line to the Spanish side in what later became Brazil.
That is how you depict the ninja/shinobi assassin. Sanada said in the interview the sword action is short, lethal, and intent. It is to avoid wasting energy just like the real thing, not your typical Samurai movies for dramatic effect. Reminiscent of Zatoishi swordplay. I like this cunning depiction of the political intrigue.
@@downunderrobgood changes if they made it a shinobi, because ninjas were not in reality stealth assassins like most think. the lady servant being an assassin was based on real history
The guy that toranaga sends to get the pilot alomg with everything in the ship his son is the one married to mariko. Thats why at dinner his dad comes and says toranaga has called another meeting the son gets up but dad says not him mariko has been summoned
25:51 exactly Achara, History is SOOOOO FUUUNNN, never understood why my classmates hated History class. 25:56 Indeed Jaby History is so violent, and that's why it is so interesting to understand how and why we have progress and come to where we are. 29:13 Shogun's story was developed during the 1600s during an "age" called Edo period. Toranaga's character is inspired in Tokugawa Ieyasu (the guy responsible for the beginning of the Edo period). The Last Samurai, as you mentioned, happened at the end of this period, commonly called the Meji restoration 1868.
i imagine there are (world) history teachers giving this show as an assignment. all well and good except maybe for seeing how japan invented the first live-action pr0n in the first episode. 😄
18:00 "I wish the Portugese was Portugese" James Clavell wrote English as Portugese in the novel because he wanted the story to be from Blackthorne's POV where Blackthorne (and the audience) could "understand" the Portugese but not the Japanese.
If he speaks European except with his shipmates, it is Portuguese. It is established at the beginning that he speaks it very well. Mariko also only speaks Portuguese, not English. But it makes sense that the Portuguese scenes are translated into English because we see the story from his perspective. In other words, we understand everything he understands.
I wish they did the way they did with warrior.. start with a different languages and then the camera pans around the pov while transitioning the language to English to give us the "translated" view. But still, it's still frea what shogun is achieving..
This is one of the first reactions and discussions of this show that has been able to appreciate the small nuances, from the details of language to the appreciation of the flow of speed in the episode, Instantly subscribed.
What the show didn't say is, it was Pope Clement VII who created the Treaty of Zaragoza which defined the area of influence in Asia between the Castile and Portugal. This is legal document that was referenced by John Blackthorne.
I know about the Meiji Restoration from Rurouni Kenshin lmao. This show is so good. Really appreciate your discussions afterwards. Looking forward to the next episode, and the next reaction
@kassiogomes8498 who are your top 5 most clever media characters? Tywin Lannister, Naomi Nagata, Ace Rothstein, Vito Corleone...Toranaga has recognized the cleverness of the Taiko, has spies everywhere, turned the Christian lords against ishido, brought Blackthorne to his cause, used the law against the other regents, escaped Osaka, and is building a regiment of western-trained warriors to give himself an advantage over his peers. Seems fairly clever to me
I with you about the English in the show that represents Portuguese. And apparently ALL other languages that we're gonna hear on the show (that isnt Japanese) will be represented as English. Thats my ONLY gripe with the show. Im not a fan of that. If they're gonna make this show as authentic as they are saying, we should get the other languages in my opinion. I want to hear them too!! Oh well... they've made their choice and I'll just have to live with it and be sad everytime they mention a language that just comes out as English. Sucks...
In episode 3, it was explained that the assassin ladies train all their life for one kill. Their purpose to for a job like this. Episode 3 in the UK now.
The Treaty of Tordesillas, June 7, 1494. On June 7, 1494, Spain and Portugal agreed to fix the boundary between their respective domains along a meridian 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde islands. They established two areas in which they would have a monopoly over discovery, navigation, and trade.
As a brazilian who watchs everything with subs, its sad the portuguese is speaking english, specially in the previous episode whenhe stops to talk with the crew and start talk with the cristian japanese (and possibly he already talking in portuguese with the japaneses among his crew ). The Tordesilhas treaty is a basic history lesson on school here, so my reaction when Mariko doubt about is to say "the best part Mariko, it was signed by the Pope".
The thing is, if all the languages were accurate then there would be no spoken English in the entire show. Blackthorne speaks Portuguese with the Portuguese and Dutch with the Dutch. It would unfortunately be pretty unwise for an American production company to make a series with zero spoken English. Just accept the translation convention.
@@nathancollins1715 i accepted the show and translations, but disagree with "american production cant do without english speakers". Honestly, they can, maybe they dont try because of this rejection. I saw someone put 2/5 stars on the review because "he dont pay to watch half of each episode needing to read when they talk in japanese" while the rest of the world its fine with subtitles (excpet germany).
@@caiodias503 The potential poor performance is why I say it'd be unwise for them to do it. Native English speakers just aren't used to having to watch shows with subtitles unless they consume a lot of foreign content which isn't your average person. Personally I would love it if Shogun had Blackthorne speaking period accurate Japanese, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, and Latin, but not only would it be nearly impossible to find an actor who could do all that, but a large portion of the target audience of the show might be turned off by all the reading. It's sad but it's just how it is. Maybe one day we'll get a fandub where everyone is speaking the appropriate language at all times.
@@nathancollins1715 i get it, many here only watch dub for same reason, thats the sad part. And worse, my arrogance expecting everyone reading subtitles and some poliglote actors. Just for curiosity, found these days: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8C0E5Ym9zvc.htmlsi=6jYq8ffvuTc0Yjl- I heard some schools in Japan they lesson portuguese too. Someday an actor maybe appears lol.
There's a limit to what you can expect not only of the audience, but the actors. Since Japan and the English protagonist are the focus, the Portuguese isn't essential
They should watch a BBC show called 'ello, 'ello. Very funny, but the cast is supposedly speaking 3 languages[English, French, German] but it is all in English.
@@kassiogomes84981) there aren’t many working in Canada. 2) it’s made for an English-speaking audience. Vikings did the same thing, Norse is spoken as English (whereas Anglo-Saxon English is authentic). 3) it’s clear that from the moment he arrives in Japan that he only speaks Portuguese, because he is literally the only Englishman to ever step foot in the country at that point.
Note regarding Shogun (1980). While it was five episodes, it was 12 hours long with commercials. Which would be the equivalent of 12 broadcast episodes today. Of course cable/streaming series are not beholden to commercials and having to keep episodes under 42 minutes per hour (though I believe broadcast television in the early 80's had fewer commercials than the ridiculous amount nowadays).
There's a great quote by Rodrigues in the first episode of the 1980s series, it goes something like: "I am important because I act important. In Japan, you don't talk, you act. Then again, sometimes you get killed if you get it wrong."
In the novel and the original 1980 series the assassin at the end of episode 2 was actually a ninja. The 2024 production did a brave choice of having the assassin an household spy, instead. The ninja scene in the old series wasn’t done very well.
I think you missed something, if you think the assassin was NOT a Shinobi, who had been "embedded" for YEARS in a powerful household, until needed.....
Blackthorne is a polyglot. He speaks English as his birth language. He speaks Dutch to the sailors from his ship. He speaks Portuguese, and maybe Spanish to Rodrigo. He speaks Portuguese to the priest and Mariko-Sama. As shown from the first episode, he is picking up Japanese as he interacts and listens to Japanese speakers. When someone "speaks English" to him instead of Dutch or Portuguese, it is to show he UNDERSTANDS them. Thus, we "hear" English instead of Dutch or Portuguese. It's actually part of the "show, don't tell" demonstration of his language skills.
What you have to understand is that while he is an enemy ishida still wants torunaga to have certain information, the put him in jail bit then have yabushigae snatch him up is a calculated move to seperate the anjin from the priest and portugese so that torunaga can learn about what theyre doing! Ishida knows mariko can speak it most certainly. Its like saying we're enemies but they are OUR enemy
I agree that the action scenes are not drawn out but are quick bursts that makes thrm more shocking. They are ending by the time you are registering what's happening. Freeing Blackthorne from prison took all of a minute or two. Then followed by killing the bandits. The assassin--and are we sure it wasn't a man dressed as a woman (a lot of reactors thought there was a lesbian scene in the 1st episode nude scene)--did quick surgical strikes to the neck. People screaming were not the victims but those who found the victims.
It's late but the Portugese thing is because they said it's the perspective of John whom is English that's why the translation is also english when talking.
Such a great show! ♥ BTW - this is an FX show being aired on Hulu & Disney (depending on region) Not buying the English is easier argument, tho. I mean like 2/3 of the show is Japanese with subs Would it really be that much diff with another 10-15% Portuguese & subs? Still ♥ the show, tho
Because Blackthorne is the "audience stand in". He speaks Portuguese fluently, so we "hear" the Portuguese lines in English. To show he understands what is being said, versus the Japanese being unknown {so far} to him.
Great Segment of Shogun 2024 Ep. 1 -2. Perhaps, before watching Shogun 2024 Ep. 3, CinePals can watch Shogun 1980 Ep. 1-2 and discusses the difference between Shogun 2024 and 1980, why both of these two Shogun interesting in telling stories and build up characters.
Great reaction! Love the show! (I just wish they didnt verbally explain everything but thats a small thing 😊) I remember watching the miniseries with my folks and was amazed and been in love with Japanese culture and asthetic ever since :) The boiling scene is VERY abbreviated in this 😅 It was much, much longer in the original version 😅😅
I'd love to watch a reaction to the original Shogun mini-series. Some of my favorite TV I've seen in my life. Although there wouldn't be more seasons, there were more books connected to Shogun. One of them was Noble House, which was also a separate TV mini-series back in the 90s. Starred Pierce Brosnan.
Some people praised this show for speaking Japanese and critizise others for speaking English but then turn a blind eye to them speaking English to represent Portuguese here
Spainish and Portuguese did try to Conquer South East Asian Countries, like Japan someparts of China and Philippines. They did it in a peaceful way (King and Popes agreement) to avoid conflict by introducing Catholic religion as the Center. Of course some embraced and welcomed them and some resist and fight
The reason why it was called Magellan's pass is because that's the route Ferdinand Magellan created that landed him in the Philippines. After the Spaniards discovered the PHL. This was then used by most Spaniards and Portugese vessels as it passes along other Southeast Asian countries for trade
The part where Blackthorne's orders were to pillage and destroy any Portugal/Spanish bases (based from the journal that the Spaniards and Portugese priests talked about in the dining table scene), they mentioned the city of Manila which is also reflected in our History books here in the PHL about the pillaging and historical events where English merchants passed thru the PHL
I agree! This was a fantastic follow up to episode one! Already gripped by the developing relationships and the layered interactions - and the tension and risk is so palpable! I'm hanging on to their every word and gesture, and as Achara said, the silent moments are alive with meaning to! Every actor is killing it in their role and the production is wonderful! Each week is going to be a LONG wait! Great job, you two!
Wait until this is finished before watching the original adaptation. The 80's version is mainly told through Blackthorn's viewpoint. At that time Japanese industry was moving into The U.S., primarily in the automotive sector, so it was introducing Japanese culture to a Western Audience. In fact, they didn't originally sub-title the Japanese language so the audience learned it as Blackthorn did. Lol to this day I can say one or two things because of it. That said, this is a far deeper and richer experience of the Japanese culture of the time because Toranaga is the primary POV character, plus Western audiences are more familiar with the surface level culture right now. The original book is a fantastic read/listen as well.
"She has just a little knife and she's taking everyone out!" Like Oberyn said, long sword isn't quite as good at close quarter combat. And she had stealth. Torunaga only killed her by getting the jump on her with his cunning ploy.
Imagine, that Cosmo Jarvis not only has to learn Japanese language, but also the Portuguese language for this show....btw, after I saw Cosmo Jarvis in the Irish movie ''Calm With Horses'' (2019) four years ago, I've said immediately that he's goin' to be the next big star in Hollywood....
It's great to see someone local to me doing well for themselves, I can remember seeing him playing gigs in Plymouth pubs (he started out as a solo singer/songwriter before breaking into acting)
@@peterengelen2794 it doesn't need to be perfect Japanese. Do you think that the English actor speaks perfect Japanese? He doesn't. And to teach a third language to a bilingual person is much easier than to teach a British guy any other language other than English. The problem here isn't the language. It is that the production is american and not european. I guarantee you, people in Europe speak a lot of languages.
The speaking english as portuguese it kinda makes sense tho, at that time Japanese people only knew portuguese, so they would call Portuguese to english because they never experienced contact with Europe outside Portugal.
It's hard to adapt such a long book {IIRC, "Shogun" is the second longest book I ever read} well. A lot of stuff often gets cut in a two hour movie, or even a mini-series. The original mini-series was like twelve hours, with commercials. And included a lot. This series, so far, is doing the same goid job, atvthe very least.
Japan is the first civilization the europeans bumped into that they couldn't bully or bribe. To this day Japan is one of the places where you go and you MUST play their game, by their rules or you won't last.
I think it was too far for the Europeans to send large forces to Japan. Otherwise they could have taken it over, you can’t beat an army who has guns with swords and arrows. That’s why they opted to do it in a more strategic manner. And they had to have been spread thin with their colonies in South America, Africa, and the rest of Asia.
@@Rabbithole8 Yeah that's the catch. You've been living in Japan for over a decade. You really gonna sit there and tell me it didn't take a while for you to see the real person past the social charade? Come on.
The assassins were part of the 'Amida Tong', which was a assassination for hire zealot group. Each member trains for one kill attempt on the target and then they kill themselves afterwards. I'm loving the series and it does an awesome job staying fairly close to the book, with what it does show, but it does lack in giving the audience a lot of information. The best way to enjoy the series fully is probably to read the book first, but that's a big ask. Hopefully enough people enjoy the series enough to want to delve more into the story.
is the Treaty of Tordesillas not taught in history class worldwide ?? almost all the reactors i've watched weren't aware of it so i wonder. in my country, we're taught about that treaty as early as elementary school. tho it makes perfect sense for us because we were colonized by Spain for 3 centuries so it's directly part of our history. i just assumed it's something famously known and recognized, historically speaking.
Well the book by was written in English. That's probably why it's dubbed in English and it's was also on Blackthorne's point of view. Now I wish they'll do a "Noble House" series or adapt "Gai-Jin".
if youre enjoing this oohh i think i should start recommending you to watch Black Sails. Fantastic set of actors the story is a shef's kiss and the setting is 18th Bahamas
The original series where 5 episodes, yes... but each episode was feature film in lenght... I believe and hour 45 minuest or so per episode. The original show it's 9 hours and some chenge long
Twelve hours, actually. The first and last episodes were three hours. Other three were two hours. Edit: that is with commercials, to be accurate. Probably about ten hours of actual show time.
can someone explain to me the whole Yabu rescuing blacthorne from execution situation, under whose order was he going to be executed and under whose orders did yabu save him?
The Christian Daimyos wanted Blackthorne to be executed. Ishido agreed with them because he wants them to vote against Toranaga. Yabushige reveals Blackthornes value to Buntaro, who then tells Yabu that Blackthorne is set to be executed. Yabushige then frees Blackthorne of his own initiative so he could curry favor with Toranaga.
I think the story of this drama is well done. However, the human relationships in the actual history that the drama is based on are much more complicated.
Great reaction! I first read this book when I was in high school and it's still one of my favorites so I'm really glad they're doing it justice in this show so far. As for the language thing, I have some opinions. I too would have preferred for the Portuguese to be Portuguese but the English makes some logistical sense. In the book, Anjin-san being a pilot was educated and knew at least passably all the "international" languages: Spanish, Portuguese, and Latin, plus he was half English and half Dutch so he knew those as well. This matters both to show his level of education and how well-traveled he was and to portray how capable he is to learn a new language especially if his life depends on it. The Japanese being kept is very important since he needs to not be able to understand what is happening both culturally and language-wise in the beginning. Also since the story itself centers on Japan itself and the politics played towards becoming Shogun it would be quite disrespectful to not show the Japanese language and culture as correctly as possible. I think the other languages being just English, maybe with a different language word thrown in, is to separate what is understood by Anjin-san vs what the Japanese understand, with the translators being caught in between. It is a lot cleaner for the audience to have the Japanese for the Japanese, English for all Europeans, and the translators knowing both. Also, it would be a lot harder to find actors that speak all of these languages. Since nowadays English is the "international" language it's a lot easier to find actors that can speak their native language + English than to find ones that know Portuguese and Spanish.
I believe that Louis Ferreira who plays the Captain-General of the Black ship is actually born in Portugal, and speaks portuguese, so it is not an impossible task. It is certainly easier to keep it appearing in two languages only, but for us that are used to subtitles, it is not necessary to simplify it in that manner. And to be perfectly honest I don't understand what is so difficult about subtitles anyway. You just have to concentrate on what you are watching, instead of letting your attention be consumed by other things, while you are supposed to watch the series.
@@Abbadonhades English is not my first language so I grew up with everything subtitled, it doesn't bother me at all. But the public at large is generally put off and they do want the show to be as appealing as possible. I did not say it's impossible to find multilingual actors, it's just a lot harder since everyone except for the Japanese that are not Christian needs to know Portuguese well enough to comunicate with everyone else, plus some other languages. So they would have had to cast all European and some Japanese actors with the minimum requirement of knowing Portuguese conversationally. Even when they are given the lines it would sound awfull if they have full conversations without actually speaking the language. As I said above i would have preffered for all the languages to pe kept, but i understand the logistical dificulty.
@@ohlookakitty911 Good point about the amount of actors that needs to speak portuguese fluently for it to work. About the use of subtitles, I can understand it from a habit point of view. I'm still wondering why subtitles are so off-putting though? From my perspective it makes the experience that much more authentic.
Ninja were Samurai most of the time. More specific, they were Hatamoto, the most trusted retainers of a Daimyo (Lord). They often acted as if they were farmers or merchants. As they were spies. An exeption were the ninja of Iga. That province had several bushi (warrior) families without lords, but they were not ronin, as they ruled the land themself. Like an alliance of minor nobles without central rule. The Iga people were mostly armed and trained in warfare of all kinds, be they bushi or farmers. And ninja tactics were most effective to defend their land.
Another note on the Portuguese thing. Think about the actor pool to pull that off. The actress who plays Mariko is Japanese New Zealander and does a great job. Imagine trying to find Japanese actors who you now have to teach Portuguese lines to. I dont mind the code-switching at all and think three languages would detract from the ability to see great acting.
Episodes 1&2 were very strong and I hope they kept it up. I must admit that the wiki Premise section makes me nervous that they might adapt some of the characters "for modern audiences" rather than keeping the story closer to the novel or historical time period.
@@kassiogomes8498Not even a little. And why would you make that assumption based upon my comment that I'm nervous they're going to inject 2020s values into a 1600 setting?
@@OCDCentral because that's why most sexist men said when they see women in period pieces. The book that this series is based on has a lot of historical innacuracies. And the series, too. You can be mad about a lot of them. You can be mad, for example, that they are using English when the characters are actually speaking Portuguese. But I bet you don't care about any of these, as long as they portray women with no importance or no relevance to the story, you don't care.
@@OCDCentral because the only thing modern in the premise of the tv show is about Lady Mariko. And it's funny because the book has a lot of historical innacuracies. But they don't go against your ideologies, do they?
@@kassiogomes8498No, the Portuguese to English does not bother me because the primary audience is English speakers, many of whom might not watch subtitled content. I'm both happy and shocked that they kept the Japanese. As to the historical inaccuracies, sure. But why add more by portraying characters in ways that would be highly unlikely for the time? As much as you seem to want to put me in a "hates strong women" box, that's not me. That said, I'd gladly get into a "show historical accuracy, warts and all" box because I do not need to see my, or anybody else's current-day values projected onto a story of the past.
So much about the Power of Religion. Catholic dominance in The New World and Far East and how Faith can be swayed to become a powerful weapon towards those that the "White" European masses believed they were smarted and could, can sway the mind of those they
20:30 gossip as in spreading fake rumor to meet your agenda that's what ninja's or shinobi would do. like they would tell priest's kids that their father is in danger because enemy of the kingdom are coming from farm side to attack on king and they will slaughter his parents first. so kids would goto father and tell that father would go tell general general would tell king "we have our spies told us army is coming through the farm side" then king would direct his army to stay alert towards farm side. while king get assassinated by his maid or someone who changes sheets. by the time general realize it was a fake tip, king is long gone 😂
There is a lot of misinterpretation, the Treaty between Spain and Portugal was an agreement on TRADE not on ownership per se. It was never the objective of the portuguese or the spanish to replace the goverment with christians, it was to convert the whole country and rulers to what they believe is the right true religion in order to safe their souls. Also Macao was not a secret base. It was known to the Japanese and used by them as intermediaries to trade with China because China blocked Japanese trade with them. So that was the only way.
"...all lands, both islands and mainlands, found and discovered already, or to be found and discovered hereafter, by the said King of Portugal and by his vessels on this side of the said line and bound determined as above, toward the east, in either north or south latitude, on the eastern side of the said bound provided the said bound is not crossed, shall belong to, and remain in the possession of, and pertain forever to, the said King of Portugal and his successors" - Treaty of Tordesillas 1494
@@StuSaville For TRADE and that only applied to non-Christian nations, otherwise the rest of Europe should in theory be colonised too, which would be ridiculous. To which non-Christian country colonisation specifically applied is debatable, but countries like Japan and China wre not one of them
