Shogun (2024) Episode 8 Review 

While it's likely that Hiromatsu did what he did of his own volition and to convince the other generals of Toranaga's "surrender", it still runs into two important issues: 1. Hiromatsu is far too important a figure to lose like this right before the real conflict begins. 2. Hiromatsu was already telling others that Toranaga was likely faking it. Thereby nearly foiling the plan to have many of them fall for it later. There are plenty of creative ideas we can point to as to what was really happening and what the show runners intended but I do believe it all could have been set up better for the story.

I don't believe your interpretation of the seppuku scene is correct. Hiromatsu and Toranaga had no pre-established plan. Rather, Hiromatsu caught on that Toranaga was deceiving everyone, and knew that was because he needed to deceive his enemies as well. Toranaga's internal plan here is to have the *protesting generals* commit seppuku to achieve the deception. Hiromatsu's honor compels him to save them by offering himself instead, something Toranaga did not expect or want, but something he cannot prevent without letting the deception fall.

What an incredible actor that old man is. He has been a favourite of mine from the beginning a powerful presence and even more powerful voice

Church right next to a redlight district - rofl. Toronaga has good sense of humor

How I interpreted the seppuku scene: Recall the first episode where it states that every man has three hearts; there is the first heart he keeps in his mouth; the second he keeps in his chest; and the third "secret" heart that HE keeps hidden and buried deep where no man can find if he wants to survive. Toranaga wants to stay alive and is playing the ultimate game of troll. He's purposely trying to appear weak to his enemies (as well as to his own people). Hiromatsu was NOT aware of this plan to appear weak; in fact Hiromatsu thought that Toranaga was indeed sick and is going to surrender, BUT since he sent the priest to deliver the message to Osaka that Toranaga is in bad shape, instead of sending his best men, Hiromatsu at this moment thought that despite Toranaga being sick and weakened, that he would ultimately FIGHT BACK instead of surrendering. HOWEVER, during the scene where Toranaga was gathering signatures, Hiromatsu wanted to call Toranaga's bluff that he's going to surrender (which Toranaga has NO INTENTIONS of surrendering) and vows to commit seppuku unless he forfeits the signatures, and it is at THIS very moment that NEITHER men can back down from what they have said....(LOYALTY, once it's given it can't be taken back...or something like that, Mariko stated), and at the same instance, Hiromatsu UNDERSTOOD Toranaga's true plan....both understood one another, but they must sell the plan in silence and carry on with their word in this final moment--again, it's about honor and loyalty. Hiromatsu knew his duty and carried through. Like a fucking G. I appreciate that the showrunners are hammering it home that your words carry weight, that your actions have meaning, and loyalty / honor is everything.

The only actual good thing for me in this episode is the most overlooked part when the dying Lady Daiyo-in told Ochiba not to bank on Ishido so much thanks to his lowborn status. This kind of event also happened in real life but with Lady Nene (Daiyo-in’s real life counterpart) and Kobayakawa Hideaki. When Ishida Mitsunari tried to recruit people for the Western army, he asked Hideaki to join him. Hideaki wasn’t so sure which side to join so he asked his aunt Lady Nene for advice and she told him to side with “Tokugawa Ieyasu” because Ieyasu’s troops were fully fresh and healthy (thanks to him getting them out of the Imjin war altogether) so he had more winning chance and Nene herself had a beef with Lady Chacha (Ochiba’s real life counterpart) who represented the Western army. So Hideaki tried to join Ieyasu following her advice but Mitsunari swooped in the last minute to get him to the West. However, we all know that Nene’s words left a huge impression on Hideaki. That’s he ended up doing what he did in Sekigahara. Lady Nene might not be as bombastic in history as Lady Chacha but she’s an unsung hero who changed the entire course of Japanese history. Japan wouldn’t have Tokyo without her.

Hiromatsu's seppuku was not "planned".... it was Hiromatsu himself, who realized at the meeting that he had a part to play that still aligned with Toronaga's overall strategy. His Generals and the other attendants now have unimpeachable proof of his Surrender to Ishido and the other Regents. Toronaga honors his word and will submit to surrender, keeping the Regents at bay and allowing him to bide time with less scrutiny...while other factors, arranged himself, will bear fruit. Sending his (now) senior ally in Yabu along with Mariko, Blackthorne and all the weapons to Osaka reinforces all of this. The Regent and lady Ochiba cannot be anything but satisfied and will let their guard down.

It's clearly not JC's Shogun, but as a stand-alone story I am enjoying it. I though the drama in this episode was really good. The comment of Blackthorne's being between two worlds and not belonging in either was especially poignant for me as I am British but have lived in SE Asia almost half my life - and yep, I don't 100% fit here, nor back in UK. I wish they had made more of Blackthorne's reunion with his crew and the noticeable changes in his own behaviours and 'going native', leading to his disgust at their barbaric ways and renewed appreciation of Japan (but I think that came much earlier in the book). Mariko and Buntaro was beautiful and i thought it clear that she has a duty to Toranaga to perform before she can leave this world (that was set up in earlier episodes). Toranaga's deception is well played out and IIRC from the book he is noted as being an excellent Noh performer with impressive acting skills. The manipulation of his generals and enemies are testament to his 'falconry' skills, and becomes clear when Yabu and Anjin do exactly as predicted (Goshawks). I was shocked to see the sacrifice of his greatest general, but thought that scene and the following one with Mariko were very dramatic. Overall, I really enjoyed the tension in this episode.

It seemed clear to me with Toranada's facial expression upon hiramatsu offering to kill himself. Toranada threw himself back bodily at those words. He did not know. Hiramatsu said, forgive me. He knew that this was the only way. Everyone knew of Toranagas tricks. He sacrificed himself. It was out of love and faith for his lord and his people. He trusted his lord. He told his son to have faith. If Sanada himself doesn't get an Emmy for that performance I'd be shocked. Every actor in that scene deserves one. They were all so focused in that moment. Best drama I have seen in years. I forgot what great acting was until this. Amazing. It was perfect. Toranada couldn't tell anyone at any point the framework of his plan. He had everyone's measure according to birds of prey. His son, Blackthorne, Yabu, his brother and generals all predictable. Even Toranada was predictable but his best friend, that was not.

Because, in the book, Buntaro is a skilled tea master. this sequence in the book is magnificent.

"Its just a prank bro" The prank:

Bro I think Toranaga and Hiromatsu communicated with their eyes and came to an agreement without words. Just watch the scene again.

I was hoping to see more of Fujiko, she's still my favorite character

No, bro, hiramatsu and Toranada did not communicate beforehand. Toranada saying he did his duty doesn't necessarily imply that. My takeaway from the episode was that hiramatsu never became certain about Toranada's intentions; he simply had an intuitive feeling. However, this intuition solidified into something more concrete through their final exchange. There's also a subtle play of eye contact communication between them. Now, hiramatsu faced two options: either obey Toranada's orders and die without purpose, or commit seppuku and thereby strengthen Toranada's image as a man who has resolutely made up his mind about his surrender. He simply weighed his options and chose to die for a potential cause rather than perishing aimlessly in Osaka a few days later.

Episode was crazy. Still loving the show. Its great. I think one thing you left out that I definitely felt was this episode was a realization of how ruthless Toranaga truly is. Also, I think something subtle that you might've missed is that Hiromatsu tried to prevent a mass mutiny by the generals. Hiromatsu knew that the plan was to look weak and fake surrender, but that meant everyone had to be on board, but big problem is you couldnt tell that to anybody, because anybody could be a spy. I think during their conversation, when they were looking at each other, they knew what each other truly meant. Especially Hiromatsu's last words to Hirokatsu.

I just hope the killing off Hiromatsu wasn't done just for the sake of shock and awe. That's borderline Season 8 Game Thronish and we all know that will not do

It was all in the eyes. An unspoken understanding that neither wanted , but was thought necessary.

Your take on the Seppuku scene isn't right. Hiromatsu has no idea what Toranaga's plan is at all. He was operating on assumptions and him knowing what Toranaga would do, since they've known each other for a long time. Hirmoatsu was correct that Toranaga is bluffing. So after the meeting, he told his vassals to quell their doubts about Toranaga actually surrendering and they are not dying in vein. Fast forward to the Seppuku scene, Hiromatsu still not knowing his leaders plan, even though his assumption was right, decides to challenge Toranaga. He challenges him because he what's know 100% that he and his vassals arent being led to their own death. Toranaga doubles down and essentially sacrifices hims close friend. This in turn leaves all doubt to everyone that he is surrendering. But again he's bluffing

Nah, if they were going to kill off Hiromatsu he should’ve died like Torii Mototada, and Nagakado should’ve had an Ueda moment. And about Sekigahara: If you look at the video made by FX called “The Making of Shogun - Chapter Five: Expanding the Vision with VFX” there is a small snippet of Ishido dawning his famous armour from Sekigahara riding out to meet Toranaga, the two of them have MASSIVE armies behind them, whilst the narrators talk about making battles with tens of thousands of Samurai. So what else could it be?

I think the series is trying to keep those of us who already know the story in suspense and trying to surprise us. Anjin saved Toranaga twice, he told him in episode 6 that he would be loyal to him until the end, and they gave him command of the cannons. It doesn't make sense for Anjin to change so radically before the war and damage the whole character arc of a character that is already quite damaged. I believe that, just like the plan with Hiromatsu, there is a plan with John that they didn't show in any scene and that will be revealed in the end. In fact, it was the only way to make Yabushige betray Toranaga in the end. If you look closely, Omi tells him to watch out for Anjin, who is dangerous. I don't think Toranaga would give John so much power knowing all along that he was a traitor

To everyone who thought the love story between Mariko and John took up too much time in the original. Good news it looks like they’ve pushed that story down 😆

I think you completely missed the point. Hiromatsu didn't have an off screen meeting with Toranaga. He only understood what was going on few seconds before he committed seppuku. And duty bound as he is, he understood that he needed to play his part in Toranaga's plan. That is what those crying stares between Toranaga and Hiromatsu are, they both understood that this was a necessary sacrifice.

Spitting on the legacy of James Clavell.

You’re correct that seppuku is usually done indoors, but if the objective is to make drama so believable that Ishido and Ochiba fall for it then a spur of the moment indoor seppuku would be better than a properly planned one outside. That being said, surely sacrificing Hiromatsu is too much, full use of Nagakado’s death could have been sufficient ….

The thing is everyone, on both sides, believe that Torranga has a plan, because he always has a plan. So, he has to go to extreme lengths to convince people that he doesn’t have one.

I on the other hand quite enjoyed the fact that it was Hiromatsu who commited seppuku in protest. Having read the books and knowing what is coming, I didn't really feel surprised or tense in most scenes in the show so far, even in this one - that is, until the moment the knife makes contact, at which point I was pretty much shocked and sad, but thrilled at the super high stakes involved. It was a devastating moment. I never saw it coming. The reaction of all the other samurais in the room was superb. I feel it was better than if some random general we never saw before had done the same - we just would not care if that had been the case. This, I think, showed how committed Toranaga is, and how he will do anything to win. And it showed a bit his true colours, too.

I really just wish this show had more episodes to have told its story with. So much early on was rushed through, and it always felt like there was never enough opportunity to drink in the setting and appreciate the passage of time in a manner appropriate to the furtherance of the story being told. I would have rather the tension slowly build to the climactic resolution, and for us (the audience) to feel like a tsunami of converging elements was about to come crashing down on characters we have come to care about.

As someone who hasnt read the books or saw the old version i am really enjoining but i also see where your comings from all in all 9/10 for me

Keen to hear everyone's thoughts on how Toranaga might leverage the situation. What has the time bought by the deaths of Nagakado+Hiromatsu and the element of surprise, from the others thinking that he has given up, afforded him? All that has happened, but to what end? I feel like the answer would give more context and provide more rationale behind why it got to the point of losing Hiromatsu. I have neither read the book nor have an understanding of the actual history, so pls excuse my shallow understanding as I'm just a casual viewer new to this show.

As someone who has spent four decades studying the logic of power in feudal and early modern societies, I absolutely agree with your assessment of how wrong it is to sacrifice Toda Hiromatsu, and that for two major reasons. Firstly, Toranaga/Ieyasu is a warlord in a volatile feudal system of competing rulers; his authority is not (like, say, that of most European kings) based on 500 years of essentially undisputed heredity, but rather on his ability to convince both his equals (other major daimyos) and his inferiors (lesser daimyos and the heads of important samurai families) that he will make it to the top and take them with him. (Sure, these other players have some code of honour; on the other hand, they also know that being on the losing side in this conflict can very easily lead to the complete eradication of they families.) Sacrificing your most important general like that will not only deprive you of his services in the forthcoming fighting. More importantly, once the ruse becomes obvious (as it must when you eventually start fighting), others will have to think that not even the loyal service and personal closeness of Toda Hiromatsu prevented you from sacrificing him like this, and will therefore be less inclined to serve you, or become your allies - in a situation where they could still very much chose an alliance with the other side, as demonstrated at Sekigahara where the decisive push came from a daimyo whose loyalty was unclear until the last moment. And secondly, more generally, even if all that were not a problem already, it would still be an insane plan to deliberately spend months trying to look as defeated, hopeless and inert as possible. In Toranaga's strategic situation, all depends on convincing other actors of equal power that they need to be his allies because he will win anyway, so trying to convince all of Japan of the contrary would be self-destructive even before your potential allies were to find out how you sacrificed your most important servant. It really is the kind of strategy that only people with no understanding of historical (and continuously relevant) power dynamics could come up - people like the showrunners or scriptwriters I guess, because their main frame of reference would be film scripts where a single ingenious twist (the more suprising the better) can solve everything. But history never worked that way.

I loved the 80s miniseries when I was a little kid and later absolutely adored the novel - that being said, I’m just so completely invested in this show. I know it’s not exactly like the book but I’m willing to let this show be it’s own thing. I didn’t expect to sob like a baby when Hiramatsu died, that hurt cause he was one of my favorite side characters.

I enjoyed it, enjoying the season quite a bit. Never read the book or seen the original series, so I'm just happy to be here.

Still like the show and am very excited to see it conclude. My only gripes are the lack of action in these intermediate episodes, and the color grading. It can get a little boring and feels very static. The color grading is terrible, it makes Japan look like a miserable, dreary, depressing place, like the UK. LMAO!

I agree wholeheartedly with your criticisms of their Lord Hiromatsu plot divergences and the goofs in executing [no pun intended] them. The worst that can be said of the original [1980] series? 1) That its interior lighting was obviously unrealistic and anachronistic, lit up with off-camera artificial lights in the manner of 90%+ of what airs on TV, including the commercials; and 2) that, IIRC, its musical score by Maurice Jarre was recycled too repetitively... although Jarre's themes and motifs were great, he didn't compose enough of them. The worst that can be said of this series? 1) That it wasn't filmed in Japan (admittedly, for good reasons), and the parts of Canada that stood-in aren't entirely convincing; and 2) that it takes huge (and, so far) unjustified liberties with James Clavell's plot and even characters. I know which shortcomings I rank as being more detrimental, at least so far.

I laughed when I saw the Torii gates at the funeral. Absolutely ridiculous.

You answered your own question. He committed seppuku in the audience room so that everyone could see. Obviously that was for a reason.

Blackthorne has to be in on the plan. Someone said that his request for charcoal is a sign. No one knows anything because Toronaga isn’t sharing everything with his main people. I think Mariko really thinks Blackthorne is disloyal.

Killing off anyone other than Hiromatsu wouldn’t be convincing enough for the Council.

I never expected to actually feel such heartbreak for Buntaro in this episode. You saw a more human side reaching out an olive branch only to realise he is too late and all that entails.

What the hell were they thinking killing off the most loyal vassal Toranaga has? That was a dumb decision!

No off-screen meeting or anything like that. During the scene, they exchange glances, I've assumed this was a "silent conversation" conveying that toranaga will not/can not back down but does indeed have a plan, and hiromatsu trusting his lord.

I view Hiromatsu telling the vassals that Toranaga was going to fight was also a some type of set up. Imagine being told there's hope then that particular man died because fighting was never an option. Cannot both keep the rebellion in check and fool the enemies + spies at the same time. Hiromatsu made sure Toranaga could fool his enemies and who should rebel would rebel. Well, 2 eps left and I'm hopeful.

I agree fully that there's a lot of rushing and loop-holing in order to make Toranaga's deceptions appear genuine. None of this makes any sense if Toranaga has no confirmed safe lineage, either. Blackthorne's cultural schizophrenia also feels very rushed and out of no where, and is completely counter to previous episodes. At first, I thought it might be intentional that Blackthorne's loyalties jump around a bit as he gets a lay of the land. Then, in prior episode, when he swears he's by Toranaga's side no matter what comes, there's zero additional bonds or friendship or kinship established between these two. The forty-five second interaction between him and the crewmate makes Blackthorne appear genuinely psychotic. The cynicism angle of tradition-used-as-transaction, often associated with the late Edo period (Shigurui: Death Frenzy, R. Kenshin, etc..) is on full display this episode: Everything feels transactionary, and nothing feels sacred, and I was hoping this version of Shogun would be able to wield the two more delicately. Instead, this version of Toranaga appears to want the Shogunate at any and all costs: Including having no heir and no trusted senior advisor to give additional legitimacy after the coup. It all feels so contrived when it needn't have been.

Why they do Buntaro so dirty? He doesn't deserve... He reminds me of "Cheng Hee" from "My Liberation Notes". In the begging it seemed that we would like him very much, but in the end he seems the more emotionally complex and interesting character, the one with the more easy to empathize struggles. It's the character that among all others it's the one that you think, "I hope he meets a happy ending".

I think the show made it pretty obvious Blackthorne is borderline fluent and that he's part of some grand design. Just feels a bit sudden and rushed to now show it.

As far as my feelings for the whole series, I love it. Sure it has some "interesting" narrative choices but globally, I feel like it's something I've enjoyed as a fan of Japanese culture. It's maybe helped by the fact that I've never seen the previous adaptation and that I've only started to read the novel...

The real Shogun, Tokugawa Ieyasu was born Jan. 31, 1543 --the year of the Water Tiger. No Tiger would behave like this, they love to attack and never fear defeat. The real Hiromatsu was Hosokawa Fujitaka and was born in 1534 --the year of the Wood Horse. Horse and Tiger form two parts of the trio of War (dog is the third part). Note: Water feeds Wood. The synergy is very productive. Hosokawa was loyal to Tokugawa from the beginning of his career all the way to Shogun.

Let me play the other side on Hiromatsu's death, who is more important, one old trusted general with few troops, comparatively, or 10 generals and all the troops they command. I don't think it was planned between them, but when Hiromatsu saw the others ready to die he called an audible, when he asked "so you do believe in a pointless death" he was saying "Well I don't either"

Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu. Ieyasu had his wife killed and made his eldest son commit seppuku because they were suspected of having a secret liaison with his enemy. By doing so, it was believed that Ieyasu tried to show his loyalty to Oda Nobunaga. So, the scenario of attempting to deceive the enemy by forcing a loyal retainer to commit seppuku is not at all an outlandish setting, if it is based on the actual history.

5:50 See the two younger guys in the back? The ones with the different haircuts from the others? Are they wakashu?

The church by the 304 house is too funny

Someone else has probably already pointed this out so forgive me if this isn't the freshest of takes. But I knew this was going to go off the rails when they decided to omit Blackthorne's attempt at seppuku. It's a pivotal moment in the development of the character and how everyone interacts with him afterwards. But I suspect it was omitted so they could de-emphasize Blackthorne's story in favor of Mariko's. It would also explain why the romance is nonexistent in this version. Which also explains Cosmo Jarvis' casting. There's nothing about him or his portrayal of Blackthorne that makes you believe Mariko would risk her life to be with him. It's also revealing that none of these changes are addressed in the official podcast for the show. Also, I agree that the colorist for the show seems obsessed shades of grey and blue. Very oppressive.

Toranaga must have at least one other son, the father of his granddaughter we saw in the episode and husband of Lady Rin (sister of Lady Ochiba).

Not liking how this series is turning out. Seems like everybody is on a death ride to service Toronaga's (obvious) triumph. Even for Sengoku period Japan, that's just too dark. Also, Blackthorne has been reduced to a bumbling, pathetic side character. It's embarrassing to see him in any scene now.

I believe we hear that Ochiba's sister (that Mariko visits in this episode) was Toranaga's daughter-in-law, no? So he'd have to have a son, presumably one older and more established than Nagakado was. Which has been confusing me since episode 1.

Not a book reader but I feel the show is falling a bit flat after a great start. Very much enjoying the scene by scene beauty and drama tho. Seeing how Blackthorne's character was changed and maybe minimized from the book and 80's series I wonder if they thought about removing the character completely? Seems like this show would have been fine without him included.

It is interesting who did sign the suicide surrender pact - Yobushige and his nephew Omi. One with no intention of checking out of the plantet, and the other out of loyalty doing as he should. The others refused, and Hiromatsu commits sepuku as part of the plan, with Buntaru doing clean up work and outside of the plan. I suspect that Toranaga needed this to happen, depriving him of his friend and most loyal soldier, but knowing he can be replaced by Buntaru and Omi. Toranaga knows he can trust Yobushige as far as he can throw him, but if things work, he will be on board.

The ultimate way of convincing to fool the council is if Toranaga's 2nd in command commits seppuku. In that sense, it makes sense.

Toronaga did not know Hiromatsu was going to commit seppeku. This is what happened: 1. Toronaga has capitulated and his army is marching to Osaka. They stop over in Edo to mourn his son. 2. All of the senior commanders believe they will be killed once they reach Osaka. Toranaga himself is sick and has isolated himself from everyone. Many begin to believe that he has given up. So morale js very low amongst the army. 3. Hiromatsu realises that Toranaga plans to fight. He doesn’t know the plan but he does know something is afoot. 4. Toranaga forces his generals to sign the surrender. They do not and protest. There could be two outcomes if the protest continues - the generals kill themselves or they will revolt. 5. Hiromatsu decides to call Toranaga’s bluff. He wants Toranaga to announce to the generals that he will fight. This will Immediately raise the morale and bring unity to the amongst Toranaga generals. 6. Hiromatsu in the moment then realises what is Toranaga’s plan. But it is too late. If he backs down he will ruin the plan.

I hate when intelligent characters in the shows are not real world intelligent but only plot armor intelligent. If real Tokugawa would do just one of the mistakes this torunaga character, he would not survive the the sengoku jidai let alone become a shogun.

It was my favorite episode thus far, Hiromatsu was a fan favorite and it sucked for all of us but I respect their bravery in killing him off, hopefully they will stick the landing.

3:18 That’s why I think this adaptation missed the point of the novel (and Tokugawa in real life). Toranaga’s victory is completely meaningless because he has no heir or even if you consider Nagakado’s son as an heir, he’s still a baby, so the Toranaga shogunate will collapse faster than the Toyotomi because Hideyori in this version, albeit young, is already a teenager now so in five years time, he will be strong and capable enough to topple the heirless Toranaga shogunate. They shouldn’t have left out Sudara and killed off Nagakado because the point of Tokugawa shogunate is that the shogun could retire years before he die so that his heir could take over, securing the succession. That’s why it managed to stand the test of time for almost 300 years.

I know everyone loved this episode as is evident by the Reddit posts… but for someone who is a huge fan of the books, I’m seriously just sick of all the changes and this episode is the straw that broke the camels back, I mean they make Blackthorne into a tool… and his relationship with Mariko is literally nothing like the book which destroys Bkackthornes character arch… I had such high hopes. This reminds me so much of how the writers literally re-wrote The Witcher… and the only people who like that series now are people who haven’t read the books.

I just watched the 1980 version last week and i thought it was very enjoyable! I do think the romance part is way too focused on and that ending was so anticlimactic that i thought there was actually another episode which i then spent an hour looking for I enjoy this new series too but it feels off somehow I hope they manage to stick the landing though

My favorite scene in this episode was Alvitos Reaction to where the church will be built. XD

Its a great rewrite from the Japanese point of view. Just not Shogun. The original story got lost. I just cant decide if I love or hate it.

I'm unsure at this point of whether the deviations from the source material will improve or detract from the overall impact of this story as it designed by Clavell.

Never bodes well for adaptions of masterpieces when the screenwriters begin to go off the reservation. That said, I'm hoping they are concluding the series in such a way as to leave open the possibility for a second season focusing entirely upon the Battle of Sekigahara.

A more likeable Alvito indeed, the church as a whole is much more mellowed in this version. Damien Thomas had been great and menacing in the 80 version.

Doesnt toranaga ask buntaro why he doesnt just divorce her? He clearly foes have a choice. Mariko on the other hand does not.

My biggest issue with the series is the diversion from the book plot points. The book was amazing, I don't know why they changed things for no reason. It also feels super rushed. This show could have easily been 2-3 seasons. Why did they feel the need to shoehorn it into one season?

Dood that episode was one the best and the final seriously mind blowing the intensity and story telling ...the acting was way off the chart ...who cares if they follow the book or old series I haven't been captivated by a show since games of thrones... I guess we looking at this from 2 different prospective ..I just enjoy the story telling ..and Toronaga (soz I can't. Spell) had to make it look very very very real he was weak ..it's like chess he sacrifice his bishop or queen for a bigger purpose

I just saw the trailer for ep 9. It looks like we will see Mariko's fight in her attempt to free the hostages and we will also see the ninja attack on Osaka Castle in an attempt to kidnap Mariko, so we will probably see the death and funeral of the lady. Mariko! I hope that the two battles will be much better done than what we have seen so far in this series!

Love your channel being watching for a year and prompted me to replay Shogun 2 TW. I slightly disagree with your thoughts on this one and re-watched the two scenes with Hiromatsu and Toranaga carefully. 1. Through the series, Toranaga demonstrated a preference for exploiting events/opportunities as they appear rather than fighting against the current. During the meeting with the priest when he was arguing with Hiromatsu he uttered (albeit in subtitles so I am relying on accuracy of the translation): "My son is dead. I will have no further bloodshed". That strongly implied Nagakado was his only recognized heir and he was capitalizing on the unexpected death to increase the credibility of his surrender in front of the priest given that he apparently had no one to inherent and nothing to fight for anymore. 2. Given what Toranaga taught his son during the hawking scene a few episodes ago, it is highly likely Toranaga kept his deception plan of feigning weakness close to his chest and intentionally exploit the predictable reactions of others. Exemplified by his anticipation of what Blackthorne and Yabushige was doing at the end. By excluding even Hiromatsu and keeping the retainers in the dark, it fostered real tension that maximized his appearance of weakness to observing spies. 3. Hiromatsu, knowing his lord well, deduced his actual intent and said it out loud in front of only Yabushige, Omi and Buntaro. Yabushige being the only powerful vassal of the three. However Hiromatsu was conceivably discrete enough to not further go around and gossip with the rest of retainers revealing the true intention of his lord without his explicit direction. We also see that Mariko overheard their conversation so it is possible that Toranaga later knew Hiromatsu discovered his intent. 4. Later when Yabushige was conversing with Blackthorne he clearly said that "he did not know what the old man is up to, but it is not surrender" (noticeably it wasn't translated by Mariko) and probably influenced Yabushige to later sign the surrender letter without resistance as he knew Toranaga was still playing games and this was not the moment to take a firm stand. His action, and that of Omi and Buntaro contrasted strongly with the rest of the vassals that resisted signing. 5. During the vassal meeting, the front row presumably sat the most powerful of his vassals. You can see Hiromatsu reacted with some surprise to Toranaga reiterating his demand for signing the surrender letter (42:30). Perhaps he was expecting that this was the moment where Toranaga would be announcing his actual intent to fight instead of continuing his deception to a level that risked vassal revolt. 6. I don't believe the front row vassals was clued in to Toranaga's plan by Hiromatsu, but because of their lord's reputation for deception and cunning they had assumed this to be some kind of a ploy and indiscreetly challenged him in the open. There is a complex game being played here by the vassals, in essence they are questioning the determination of Toranaga's surrender and primarily hoped to pressure him into changing his mind to fight Osaka head on with their signs of disobedience. However at the same time they do not wish to overthrow Toranaga as they still rely upon him to win. 7. At 44:20 when Hiromatsu observed one of the vassal grabbing his sword signaling a real risk of escalation, that is when he said: "Lord, if you will not change your mind then I will commit seppuku at once." In game theory term Hiromatsu basically offered Toranaga a chance to signal to the vassals that there was NO possibility of changing his mind and ended their incentive to defy him. The subsequent exchange between the two contained a subtle secondary conversation where Toranaga hinted that he prefer Hiromatsu to not die now and fight by his side in Osaka while the vassal cautioned that doing otherwise would risk Toranaga's deceptive gambit. They had a prolonged stare and at 46:07 Toranaga signalled with a blink with Hiromatsu replying "So you DO believe in pointless death." Essentially an exchange where the lord approved his most important retainer to commit a self sacrifice in furtherance of the deception. 8. It may seem incredibly insensible to harm/sacrifice your most valuable asset but there are parallels in Chinese treaties on strategy called "苦肉计". Literally translation is bitter meat scheme. In essence the strategem is do something that appear so extremely detrimental to oneself that the opponent cannot conceive that it was an intentional ploy and thus achieving subterfuge advantage be it gaining the trust of the opponent or lulling them into dropping their guard. This may very well be a pivotal point where Toranaga gained the definitive advantage through his deception.

as a massive fan of both the book and the original series, I don't like this adaptation much, in both the novel and the series one of the major themes is the love and mutual admiration of mariko and blackthorne, this has been missing so far, and I don't think there is going to be enough time left in the series to properly address that.

I think this new show has really done a good job in moving away from the rather eurocentric view of the book and the 1980s series, with Blackthorne as white/euro hero

It's weird that Blackthorne doesn't have any connection to Toranaga. One thing about the CGI of Edo being built, it looked just CGI as there was no workers at any moment there in the visuals.

Hiromatsu's fate was jarring especially as you said he said it to others beforehand. Great visuals, mostly great japanese characters' story parts, but neglected Blackthorne. It's contra to the 80s version, where it was all from Blackthorne's side. I hoped this would be good for both sides but here it seems that Blackthorne is just a sad sob, compared to the strongwilled Blackthorne from the books. Without his own moments, he just seems like a whiny wimp, we see few moments when he is good in japanese, but he should be better with all the teachings of Mariko (which hasn't been properly shown in this series),

I agree. I liked most of the episode but the series has seemingly taken a Game of Thrones style departure from the rails with episodes 7 and 8. I'm worried as to how far the series will diverge from the original material especially with only two episodes left. I favored departure from the source material if it made Blackthorn a less detestable character but the Hiromatsu seppuku was too much. Should have saved that role for the son rather than dying in such an epically dumb manner. I had wondered if the historical analog for Hiromatsu was Torii Mototada or Honda Tadakatsu (who seems closer to the character's description in the book).

It was a pre-planned theatrics for 'the others' imo. Even if it wasn't then i think the scene becomes more powerful than it already is. The non-verbal communication of "It was an honor. Goodbye, my friend." look from the both of them were evidence enough for me to admire the depth of the situation that they were in. And where comes the question of Mariko and Buntaro, you cannot expect that a person would forgive years of heartbreak and beating, and disrespect over a 'cha'. Buntaro's father made his son come full circle with the comment he threw at him before dying, "You must Live. You'll know what it is to be denied." Loved the episode.

Is it me, or does this show's acting make the typical hollywood production seem like a rushed school play in compasiom?

@TheShogunate To an extent I can see where you are coming from with Hiromatsu and I agree it would have been more accurate to have him commit seppuku in the forecourt. That said it does have a Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibe seemingly alluding to when Cao Cao asked for one of his general's heads to accomplish a goal. It also was a test of loyalty stunt to see who would leave him. It is one thing to have the generals sign their intentions as was also done in the 3 kingdoms on several occasions, but Toranaga took it a step further to test just how far his generals would go for him. To see just how many of them would be like Yabushige and leave not wanting to follow an apparent mad man.

Personally, I assumed that the reason he pushed the lie so far to Hiromatsu's death was because that there was a spy in Toranaga's group, but Toranaga doesn't know who the spy is so he took a huge risk. But I could just be reading too much into it. Still, I'm very interested.

Lady Shizu is pregnant with Toranaga's baby in this show. It's probably going to be the heir.

Couldn't agree with you more on the points you've made. For me the greatest failing of the show, despite the great acting, are the changes made to Blackthorne and Mariko. They've definitely tossed aside the love story between Mariko and the Anjin-san and made it more that they just slept together this one time at band camp. But the idea that Blackthorne would be so disloyal to Toranaga and lose his Hatamoto status doesn't just diverge from the book, but fails to tip their hat the real Samurai William who could not possibly have been so 'off and on' with the real Tokugawa Ieyasu. We're not going to see the wonderful sailor's dance, there's now lack of respect between the two characters for how could Toranga ever really trust the Anjin-san? They're in one great big rush to get through the measly 10 episodes and seem focused on Toranaga rather than the Anjin adapting to life in japan. As you mentioned, in the book, him reuniting with his shipmates was a celebration, which makes much more sense given how isolated and homesick the Men would have been, so seeing their pilot alive and well would have brought joy. Furthermore, Blackthorne's tearing off of his Kimono because of the filth and squalor that the Men have still been living in, loses impact compared to the books, where the Japanese escort thanks him for his consideration in doing so before entering the bathhouse, stating the other guests will appreciate his courtesy in doing so. Scenes like this, show the Anjin adapting to Japanese culture, not rejecting it and for me, knowing that the story is based on the life of Samurai William, it disappoints me to see the changes made to this character that do not reflect either the works of Clavell or the real figure from History. Also, losing the sailor's dance and the Seppuku scene is a loss to the whole story and just one more example of failing to do justice to the novel. Instead we have one more film/series about Tokugawa Ieyasu, where there are already so many - this story was a chance to do things a bit different creating iconic television moments that the audience would remember for years to come. With the exclusion of the attempted seppuku scene we lose yet another opportunity for Mariko to gain real respect for the Anjin. But the casual watcher seems satisfied with the show, so I'm in the minority it seems. Thanks for articulating some of these points in your review.

Currently I don't see any Blackthorne-Mariko romance coming.... Hope Fuji get a well deserved story arc end.

This series misses the complex duality presented in the novel, best represented through Blackthorne and Mariko. Both of them are people trapped between two worlds, having been irrevocably changed by ideas outside of their native cultures. This was one of Clavell's major themes; the clash of cultures.

I'm a little concerned that they want to turn it into a more historical version of game of thrones, having a second season at this point feels like a must, they rush and stall to keep the audience begging for more, the problem is only if we are going to even get a season 2

I could not agree more concerning characters. I love what they did with Buntaro. He is such a multi-layered person. Yes, he is mistreating his wife, but in this series we learn how and that the mistreatment goes both sides. All he ever wanted was to make her happy, while she wanted to die and blamed him for not letting her - despite their marriage not being his fault. This of course turned into anger by him, leading to his abuse. Omi is also multi-layered. He is acting earlier against Toronaga, trying to play the different rulers to give advantage to his uncle and thus himself. Yet, while I first assumed that his friendship to Toronaga's son was fake, he now seemed to have really cared for him. I was asusming from last episode already that Toronaga's plan was to act defeated and use that ruse, to get into Osaka, however we never saw it in this episode. I was surprised that there was not the slightest hint - at first glance - that there is a plan. Not even a slight indicated discussion between Toronaga and e.g. Hiromatsu. Even though I assumed it was a plan to get into Osaka, I after Hiromatu's seppuku thought they really meant it. I was already thinking this is out of character and then Toronaga reveals indeed it was part of his plan that Hiromatsu commits seppuku (in difference to many others, I actually think, Hiromatsu's actions were genuine and he was not in on the plan). I think that has been the most sever plot twist I have ever seen in a series. Toronaga sacrificed his only friend... Some things in this plan seemed to be unclear to me. My first thought was that toronaga intended to get his troops into Osaka (under escort of Saeki, maybe even with his support) by faigning defeat and then act (not necessarily attack). But now he acted to alienate Blackthorne, but why? Why push Yabu back into Ishido's camp? I think it comes down to Mariko. He wants her to succeed and might want help for her. Blackthorne can be that help. How to get Blackthorne there? As "ally" of Yabu. But Yabu is - for now - no longer in Ishido's camp, so he has to push him by appearing weak and thus threatening his life (with common seppuku). Yabu back in Ishido's camp, he can send him to Osaka. Having alienated Blackthorne, he assumed that Blackthorne would ally himself with Yabu to find a new place. Blackthorne in Osaka - check. Now he can send Mariko there, knowing she will have support for her mission. I disagree with your assessment of the seppuku. Seppuku was indeed one way - the only proper way - to protest against a superior's decision. Given the circumstance, Hiromatsu had to act then and there, as they were signing the admission of defeat. He could not wait. One thing however, I do not get. It is implied that Mariko was intended by her father to revenge him, but against whom? The Oda Nabunaga replacement character is dead. The Taiko, Toronaga's friend, was in power before. So what is the target of Mariko's revenge? That is something I do not get. What is her motivation?

This is a completely different story. Mariko is a judgemental sulking brat. A deceptive translator manipulating the tone of the conversation. Why? Blackthorne treated so terribly by Torunaga and his Men abandoned him. Then wants to defy Torunaga and commit treason against him?! If this was the story Clavell put out, it wouldn't have sold 10 copies. If this is some kind of strategy by Torunaga I still hate it because it is so terrible and so clumsily put together its just unbelievable. They should change the name of this inept and ridiculous series because this is not Shogun. Its meaningless and poorly thought out. Nightmare in a Tea House.

I'm beginning to see Toronaga as a Villain. Ishido isn't benefiting from his underlings killing themselves. So far 3 people have killed themselves to further Toronaga's ambitions.

When Anjin beats the hell out of his shipmate, he was completely ruthless, borderline out of control. This cements that in this version they have gone out of their way to make Anjin much darker more selfish,less charming & abandoning Toranaga. I like this version as it's own thing, but it has strayed pretty far from the book & the 80's version. I know the producers wanted to show it less through Anjins eyes & more from the Japanese perspective but damn. Anjin is really not very likable in this one.

Thay are trying so hard to make a "game of thrones" in Japan that the show has become bad

Toda Hiromatsu, alas, they tried to make him Ned Stark.

I stopped watching at 6 and have been waiting til its over. What they've done to Blackthorn is a tragedy. He's a GOAT level protagonist. Along with good ole Dirk Struen. True men of culture

I've said before, I don't like "faithful" adaptations because then I know how everything is going to end. I know the story going in. I like to be surprised. I don't even like trailers that give away too much. Personally, I like this version's handling of Blackthorne. He isn't an audience surrogate so much as just another character.

Hiromatsu was one of my favorite characters 😢

I gotta say, this show does an incredible job of ensuring almost nothing happens. I was intrigued for the first few episodes, but it's lost me. Consider Blackthorn: What has he done through this show? "Befriended" Toronaga, showed some guys how to use a cannon, and...... complained a bunch. Toronaga, even less - the guy has done literally nothing the whole show. Even if it's part of some master plan, it's still not worth episode after episode where he just sits around and grumpily reprimands everyone.

He got other Sons , although rarely mentioned, in This Series. Seen by his Grandchild screened when Mariko meets up with one of Torranagas Sons Wife, having given Birth to said Grandchild, and beeing the Sister of Torrangas actual Wife pregnant in Osaka. I also dissagree that Hiromatsus Dead was scheemed in first Place. Looking how they played that out, Hiro Chan did decided that at the Point to give the ultimate Sacrifice to the Reign of his Lord, and Torranaga, getting That, no matter He said, honor that with his shown Emotions and Face impressions. But surely thats open to oneself to interpret. I somehow really felt how this Episode were directed by an Westener. Where 7 and 6 were such strange Pacings for me as an German but very fascinating ones, this was somehow an "happy Ending" for western Viewers forced in( Torranaga finally deciding to not look whiny, but rensuring to fight), where it should have been more of an outraging exploding Kami like Torranaga beause of what happen, means Torranga going off either in death or Rage against the West. But this was so...well we have to, so lets get Him 20 Seconds of, ok, thats enough hope they Buy it, ill go on, bvs....2 Episodes left....Meh at Best. sad. My English is too bad, but i hope it makes Sense. Great Recap, smooth and insightfull, but not at all demanding beeing the only kind to look at it, like some other Channels. Stay healthy!

Some of wat happened in this episode confused me, although I still love the show some of the decisions are insane, Blackthorns character just gets odder the longer the series goes on now he has no faith in anything, Nene telling Ochiba to not trust Ishido/Ishida was cool though but it comes across as Ochiba ignoring that but I could be wrong. We finally get to see 3 of Toranaga/Ieyasu's generals now I don't know who they were but for me I'm gonna say it was his Avengers Tadakatsu Honda, Naomasa Ii and Yasumasa Sakakibara wit the youngest being Naomasa as he was the youngest the oldest one I'd say was Tadakatsu but I'm just messing around on that. Toranaga/Ieyasu does seem to have a sense of humour though having a brothel next to a church, that scene made me laugh. Like the Shogunate said I thought Blackthorn was gonna do the whole Seppuku thing but didn't, Toranaga did say that Yabu and Blackthorn are fools kind of hinting he know what they were gonna do. I liked that Omi questioned what Loyalty really meant after Blackthorn spoke to Yabu. The meeting with the Generals was interesting but what Hiromatsu did surprised me he was a great character and if Toranaga/Ieyasu is really going to war he would have needed him, I was hoping there might have been Sekigahara but I doubt there will be, Still liking the series but it's going places I didn't expect and like Shogunate said it doesn't seem like he has other kids, which is weird when the Tokugawa Shogunate lasted for 300 years I think.