Should Christians Accept the Trinity? A Conversation with Dale Tuggy 

Thanks for the interview. Dale does a great job explaining the biblical view. Like the Apostle Paul wrote: God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is ONE GOD, and there is one mediator between God and men, A MAN Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:4-5

I really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciated the friendly manner, the good questions, and the clarity of the responses.

I've never seen Mr. Rouser before, but what a pleasure. Asking thoughtful questions and listening to the answers. Wonderful conversation.

Great interview. Dr. Rauser was wonderfully tolerant and respectful. Dale expertly answered all questions.

Great talk. Thanks, gentlemen.

Good interview. Enjoyed it.

Great interview

Fascinating discussion. I still hold to the Trinity, but it does us all good to hear different views. Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you, Dale.

Christian’s should denounce the Trinity because it’s a false doctrine. I’m real follower of Jesus Christ who believes that Yahweh is the only true God

Randall, I have appreciated a fair bit of your podcasts re the Alisa Childers gig. Thanks for those efforts (despite the fact that I reject the notion that there is even such a thing as "progressive Christianity"). That being said, re the topic at hand - The easiest way to expose the hypostatic union - hence, trinitarian theology, is to focus on the anhypostasis - the denial of the human fundamental that you, I and EVERY man possesses. In the traditional model (the hypostatic model), there is NO man - merely an impersonal human nature actuated by some sort of deity... A pitiful grotesquerie that really dishonors Jesus of Nazareth and the effort He made..😥😥

The vast majority of 'Christians' already accept the doctrine of the Trinity, even if they can't explain it or find it in the Bible. The idea that the first believers in Jesus were Jews who saw Jesus as the promised Jewish messiah, the Christ the Son of God, seems to have passed them by. YHWH had not fallen out of use in NT times.

The way I see the triadic passages is a recognition that there is a triadic reality to the gospel message - the messianic reality is triadic in concept -- not in three persons - but instead that there is God in heaven, and now the man who was on earth, and the spirit being the way the Father interacts with Jesus (and us) to enable the Messiah to be our mediator and is the power that saves us and empowered Jesus. And in that way, that is how we receive the spirit also. We are baptized into that relationship and thereafter have that same reality as believers. We are in Jesus and (as such) have that same relationship with the Father through the spirit as Jesus did.

Impressive guest . Speaks well .

'Used to be a professor'? I hope Dale Tuggy can write books freely like David Bentley Hart

Randall, I have to compliment you on the very even handed very civil very respectful discourse that you had with Dr Tuggy.... Dr Tuggy not surprisingly maintained that same spirit just because that's who he is ( unless he gets beat up on then sometimes he'll occasionally briefly lose that composure but he has to be beat pretty hard...😖

To my understanding John 16:13 should not be a proof-text for the inspiration of tradition in the early church - it was not said by the apostles to the early church - it was said by Christ to his apostles which should give us a proof-text for the inspiration and authority of scripture, not Tradition. It may be true that the spirit guides the rest of us into truth but not as reliably and not with the same authority. And it begs the question of "which" council you choose to follow - also that the earliest church can't fairly be seen as clearly trinitarian even at Nicea. Even later councils denied Nicea's Christology.

Overall, I really enjoyed this conversation (I'm a Trinitarian). My only complaint is that Dale rambles a bit too much

Does the “pre-human” or “Preexistence” view of some unitarians also qualify as “docetic”?

grateful for Dale Tuggy. He's got the wherewithal to take down James White who isn't always an honest debater.

To Dales point, it makes no sense to say that you're saved once you accept Christ without knowing "Jesus is God" and once you have the "full revelation" and deny it you're out. It seems to me that's adding to the gospel. Paul has some very stern words for those who add to the gospel.

Do you have any doubts on trinity?

Hi Randall, If a new Christian asked you who Jesus is/was and why he is important to the Christian faith, how would you answer? I mean would you describe Jesus as God incarnate or a human with divine attributes?

I looked up the beliefs of the Church of God General Conference and didn't find it compelling. It's seems like they just believe in the Trinity without stating they believe in the Trinity. I may just be confused. It's like they believe Jesus was a human with divine power given to him by God. A Demigod or half god because they still believe in a virgin birth. Anyways, I find this interesting because I was raised Trinitarian Pentecostal and we always had a debate going with Oneness Pentecostals.

There's nothing like trinity of devine , since the beginning son of man has been seen by Abraham ref; Genesis 18:1,Daniel 7:13 Isaiah 9:6 Mathew 28:19 revelation 5:1...God the father son and the holy spirit is a name of one God, three naming of person in Jews calture I assume.yaweh is Almighty able to appear to us as a burning 🔥 exodus15:3 man of war, spirit etc

God the Father is not the Author of Confession, but man is. Most worlding are not Specialist in the world of the Spiritual especially when it comes to the Bible definition of Spirit. I am a Biblical Unitarian belief Christian who is an SDA orthodox in living.

Taken from Jewish Voice website: "We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man." Today this blows my mind.

Unitarianism and Sabbath keeping are matching doctrines. They are very Scriptural. .

I would approach substantiating some understanding of the spirit of God by avoiding the 2 or 3 beloved cherry picked proof texts of trinitarians by advocating looking at ALL the text related to the spirit from Genesis to Revelation from which certain profound features can be identified such as the spirit of God is never seen in heaven and the spirit of God is never seen in the eschaton This gives us some clue at least of what the authors were understanding even though they are never specific as to what the spirit of God is.... because the focus seems to be on what the spirit of God does

Dr. Tuggy blithely speaking of people "going to hell" was surprising and disappointing for someone of his knowledge and insight into the bible and theology. Hopefully he at least does not mean by "hell" (not a biblical term) eternal conscious torment. The Bible and good reason of course teach temporary punishment leading ultimately to salvation for all (see for example 1 Cor 15:20-28). And even if that is not certain, it is certain that God will not torment any soul forever.

Worship of God the Father is latreou while that of Jesus is proskuneuo.

Bless the Lord, O' my soul! I am so thankful for revelation of Jesus Christ as conveyed by the Prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born (we agree that this is JESUS), unto us a son is given (again he's speaking of JESUS!): and the government shall be upon his shoulder (the reveal of JESUS in His Millenial reign as Christ that is to come!): and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor (descriptions of JESUS!), The mighty God (what you say? That's JESUS!!), The everlasting Father (there it is! JESUS!!), The Prince of Peace (that's nobody BUT JESUS!!)." There's no need for further dissections, reinterpretations, additions or subtractions! GOD has spoken concerning who He is, and let the church say AMEN!!!

Trinity?! I don't think so.

I get the Unitarian position, but I see 2 glaring problems. 1) The deity of Christ is so clear that we have to wrestle with the nature of Biblical Monotheism, and 2) I'm very uncomfortable with making Jesus a lesser god like the Gnostics did. This leads to idolatry, literally worshipping the creation.

Randal are you dense? Set up a debate between SAM SHAMOUN and Dale Tuggy. Have you not seen tuggy destroyed by Rogers?

Jehovah God is almighty and jesus is his son 2 distinct individuals in heaven Jesus is Gods first created angelic son

To me the doctrine of the incarnation is an important part of Christianity because it shows God in self giving love rather than sending someone else to do his work. God being willing to suffer in creation seems to give me hope that there is a reason for all the evil in the world.

To answer the question Randal asked around 42:00, Christianity WAS true when it was purely monotheistic in nature around the time of Christ. BECAUSE the unitarian/monotheistic message in it was corrupted so heavily, God corrected the deviation with Islam. This is the simple explanation that my Christian friends need to consider seriously. Study Islam, study the Qur'an and study the life of the Prophet Muhammad and you'll be able to see very clearly that the pure monotheism that Jesus preached and the truth lies within it.

Threre are so many miracles happening in Catholic/Orthodox church attest the divinity of Christ equal to Father ,

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all ONE FATHER? Has not ONE GOD created us? No, No, No Malachi don't you know that one means three and three means one?🤦‍♀ Trinity means three in unity. Three *what* in unity? 3 gods, period, It doesn't matter how you slice it. The Bible DOES NOT teach polytheism nor mysticism. The God of Israel is 1 Person just like the first man He created in His *own* image and likeness.

December 25: The Birthday of Mithra and Jesus Monday, December 9, 2013 December 25: The Birthday of the Iranian God, Mithra and Jesus of Nazareth by Siamak Adhami, Ph.D. "Grass-land magnate Mithra we worship, whose words are correct, who is challenging, has a thousand ears, is well built, has ten thousand eyes, is tall, has a wide outlook, is strong, sleepless, (ever-)waking, whom the warriors worship at (=bending down close to) the manes of their horses, requesting strength for their teams, health for themselves, much watchfulness against antagonists, ability to strike back at enemies, ability to rout lawless, hostile opponents. [Mithra] who is the first supernatural god to approach across the Har_, in front of the immortal swift-horsed sun; who is the first to seize the beautiful gold-painted mountain top; from there the most mighty surveys the whole land inhabited by Iranians, where gallant rulers organize many attacks, where high, sheltering mountains with ample pasture provide solicitous for cattle; where deep lakes stand with surging waves; where navigable rivers rush wide with a swell towards Parutian Iškata, Haraivian Margu, Sogdian Gava, and Chorasmia." We began this essay with one of the most beautiful passages (4.3-4) from the Avestan hymn in praise of Mithra as translated by the eminent Iranist Ilya Gershevitch. Mithra was a deity common to at least two branches of Indo-European people, namely Iranians and Indo-Aryans. In addition to the hymn in the Avesta, we are also aware of the presence of the god Mithra or Mithras (Vedic “Mitra”, Middle Persian “Mihr,” and Persian “Mehr”) in the ancient Indian scriptures known as the Rig-Veda (BC 1400). For the ancient Iranians, the god Mithra had two significant functions: he was first and foremost the sun-god whose thousands of eyes spied on every deed and nothing, particularly evil deeds, could escape from his gaze. Secondly, he was the god of contracts. For example, even in late Pahlavi/Middle Persian texts which are concerned with legal and religious matters, there exists a severe crime and sin which is related to the functions of Mithra, i.e., the crime of “mihr_druz_h”(Avestan: miθr_.drujim) which signifies “breaking promise or contract,” and by extension, “perfidy.” Perfidy was classified as one of the most heinous crimes with severe punishment prescribed for the offender. During late antiquity, the worship of Mithra became popular, particularly among Roman soldiers and merchants. The reasons for the popularity of the cult of Mithra among these two groups are easily understood: the martial nature of the hymn can explain the popularity of Mithra among soldiers. Similarly, his reverence by the merchant class is equally clear as he was the god of contracts. It is not unreasonable to think that merchants traversing across ancient commercial highways such as the famed Silk Road in antiquity preferred to conduct business with those whom they trusted and the affiliation with this mysterious fraternity only served to cement the bond between them. The adherents of the Mithraic cult, similar to those of other religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, also held festivals celebrating different aspects of their religion. It appears that the annual celebration held on December 25, the winter solstice, was the most important celebration of the cult; it was believed that Mithra was born on this day, hence “the birthday of the unconquered sun” (Latin: natalis solis invicti). Later, the practices of the cult seem to have gained much in popularity. With the advent of Christianity, a number of pagan practices which could not be abandoned found their way into this new religion. The most significant of these was the identification of the birthday of Jesus, commonly known as Christmas (Old English Cristes maesse: Christ’s mass), with that of the undying Mithra. Much has been written on pagan cults in the Roman empire and particular attention has been paid to the cult of Mithra (consult the partial bibliography below). In fact Ernest Renan went as far as stating that “if the growth of Christianity had been halted by some mortal illness, the world would have become Mithraic.” As Walter Burkert points out, Renan may have exaggerated the case as the worship of Mithra belonged to a rather elitist segment of the society. However according to Werner Jaeger, there is no doubt that Mithraism and Manichaeism, two religions with well-established Iranian connections, posed a serious threat to the spread of the new faith which became known as Christianity. Further readings on Mithraism: Adhami, Siamak, PAITIMĀNA, Essays in Iranian, Indo-European, and Indian Studies in Honor of HANNS-PETER SCHMIDT. (2003) Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, CA. Burkert, Walter. Ancient Mystery Cults. (1987) Cambrdige, MA. Cumont, Franz. (1923) Die Mysterien des Mithras. Leipzig. ____, (1896/99) Textes et monuments figurés aux mystères de Mithra. (2 vv), Brussels. Duchesne-Guillemin, Jacques. (ed.) (1978) Etudes mithraiques.Actes du 2e congrès international. Teheran (Acta Iranica 17) Gershevitch, Ilya. (1967) The Avestan Hymn to Mithra. Cambridge. Hinnells, J. R. (ed.) (1975) Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies, I-II, Manchester. Jaeger, Werner. Early Christianity and Greek Paideia. Cambridge, MA. Merkelbach, R. (1982) Weihegrade und Seelenlehre der Mithrasmysterien. Opladen. ____, (1984) Mithras. Meisenheim. Ries, J. (1979) Le culte de Mithra en Orient et en Occident. Louvain-la-Neuve. Turcan, R. (1975) Mithras Platonicus. Leiden (EPRO 47). ____, (1981) Mithra et le mithraisme. Paris.

Jesus' Father is not a different person than Jesus. Jesus' Father is Jesus himself, in a different level of existence.

The trinity is clearly polytheism, I don't care how they slide it! If Jesus is God, his father is God and the holy spirit is God, the total is 3 Gods!

The Father said: I am alpha & omega Jesus in the book of revelation said: I am alpha and omega. Jesus is God or he is a liar. Dale Tuggy thinks Jesus is a liar. Stay away from Dale