Comments are getting rough and the guy is just asking for a thought exercise. Discussing situations like this adds a nice dynamic to the show and is important for live players to hear.
I also wouldn't do this to anyone , but it's just insanely risky to raise with the premise that the player abandoned the hand. You're going to get "his hand is not dead, action is on him" at an ultra high frequency.
At the end, caller basically asks: “If I had attempted to angle and it didn’t get through, can we pretend I didn’t try to angle and play the original action?” 100% scummy
I thought the same thing. Like… why on earth would it ever go back to $200? Might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard? What possible justification could there be for the floor to let him take his bet back? OP is like “I raise”, the action goes to the other guy, then OP goes “nah, just kidding. I was just trying to angle shoot him, so take my bet back and let me do this all over again”… Lol
Not really, beacuse those were actually the casino rules, and he did the shove (scum move) to elicit a fold because the guy wasnt at the table when the action was made. So the question is valid, whether he could take back his bet if the floor ruled that the player would only be given a warning and the game goes on. Scumbag move or not, the MAIN POINT IS, he shoved on the premise that that was the house rules at that casino. If the floor can rule with discretion, he could be allowed to take back his bet. Lastly, If the opponent there didnt have KJ, and a marginally better hand, asking that question in front of him would be rather silly, because he knows you're beat, and if the ruling from the floor doesnt go in your favour, your stack is most certaily gone, with you only holding 9's .. HAHAHAH =D
@@zachf748 what do you mean .... the justification would be there is a sign on the wall that says "if you're not infront of your cards when the action is on you your hand is automatically mucked." so caller reading this rule up on the wall shoves because it's free money for him, the villain calls the floor and says he doesn't know the rule and the floor gives him a warning of course the action should go back to $200 ... it's not even an angle at that point by caller it's just taking advantage of a player who doesn't know the rules of the game. the floor can't just change the rules of the game to fuck someone over who knows the rules. this would be like u shoving a full house a guy calling with a flush, then call floor and claim he only called because he thought a flush beat a full house and the floor giving him a warning and saying "ok u can take ur call back" ... like what the fuck are you guys talking about. also he's not scummy he's clearly just wondering and asking Bart whats wrong with this comment section today lol
@@drewcundari8773 what? None of that Ames sense. After caller goes all in, the action is now on villain. If the floor decides the hand isn’t dead, action is still on villain. There’s a third player in the hand, so everyone gets a do over? Never. And no… the villain not knowing a house rule is no where near similar to not knowing what hands beat what…
The equivalent to this online is when the action is to you and you see the villain as being “disconnected” so you bet or go over the top thinking you’re going to get an auto fold and win the pot.
Good point. It shouldn't even show other players when someone is disconnected, what difference does it make other than allowing them an opportunity to pull this trick. Then again I've always believed failure to take action should be an automatic fold, not an auto check. I suppose that would include disconnects. it's always pissed me off just a tad.
@@jamesreynoso4447 A couple months playing in an online tournament, my internet connection went to shit temporarily for almost an entire orbit. Then when I was finally able to connect again, I was dealt QQ in the bb. Then sb just overjams thinking he’s stealing my blind and I snap called, dominating his like 4-7 off lol. I got cussed out for angling him but I said he should’ve just min raised.
@@drdrayfromla99 lol, what are you supposed to do, fold your queens? I personally don't see this as angling online anyway. If someone is disconnected and in the blind, you're just playing a pot with extra dead money. You should adjust to try to pick that up, but if you over adjust it might bite you. That's all there is to it.
Villain's hand would and should never be declared dead here. It's not a tournament... Don't even attempt to angle/cheat here, just win through skill and fair means. Simple
It's totally different, but this reminds me of Kevin McBride vs Scotty Nguyen at the 1998 WSOP Main Event final table. McBride went all in, and while Nguyen was thinking, McBride quietly asked Jack Binion if he could go to the bathroom. Jack said yes, since McBride's action was complete. (Obviously, that's why it's different to this hand, where the villain was not all in.) Nguyen was not happy at all! McBride came back, and Nguyen called with the losing hand saying, "It's gonna be all over if I read you right, man." It wasn't long until the famous, "You call, it gonna be all over baby."
Surprised this was even a question. Of course you don’t angle shoot the VIP. Good this this was a non issue as the caller won anyway, but this would have been not only a “douchey” thing to do, but it’s just bad business. There’s a good chance he would have left the table if he lost in that manner. Glad he flicked the little devil off his shoulder…
I watched a RU-vidr that used a preflop chart that had 96 suited in the late position raises. I thought it was absurd. That same night I played in a tournament. I played it twice. Won both hands. First play was a bluff and honestly only worked because of the board. The second time, I hit the flush. Freakin crazy.
Leaving a hand after waiting for response to your own bet is pretty low, when in this scenario from a weaker action-heavy player, let's replace villain with some high stakes Euro airpod crusher that leaves the table after putting anybody in a tough spot, disallowing any sort of live reads or tells to form for large bet decisions. I agree with the integrity of being respectful to an opponent that probably had no idea this rule existed, and avoiding this. However, with any sort of reasonable pro I'd call out to him that he has 5 seconds to get back to his seat before his hands dead, or something along those lines, and make some sort of second warning to the 1% of cases he made no effort to come back, before ripping it in and crushing his soul.
To be honest I could tell the caller would be the kind of guy to pull this just based off of his interaction with you. Yes, that would be in poor etiquette without a doubt sir.
We can all agree the caller would have been squealing like a pig to the floor demanding the villain's hand be dead if he turned over the winner. Nice brag attempt though you calling station.
That's how it is at the casino here, too, where they will auto muck your cards. I'm sure the dealer would muck cards if it was raised as well, especially if he walked that far away. I suppose it's all dealer dependent, though. Some dealers would give him a chance to get back and play his hand, but some dealers would just muck his cards because he isn't there
Man I was a player or the dealer at that table, and he wouldve shoved. I wouldve made sure to exclaim to the villain there is an all in and that he would have to come back. Im sure most players would make an effort to get him back to the table, I dont think anyone would just up and kill the hand instantly, unless it was a place with EXTREME circumstances.
@Bart TCH Austin said they have the same policy about “abandoning your hand” after making a bet. A dealer warned a player not to walk away from the table after betting all in during a cash game that their hand would be mucked.
1. Unlikely the angle would work. 2. What if MP was trying to check raise all in with the nuts? Your angle would be a wet dream for them, so you might want to minraise instead of shoving if you try it. 3. A player (driver for a big moving-truck company) next to me at Harrah's New Orleans said he's played everywhere in the country, and Parx has the worst players, even looser than the drunks in New Orleans. Apparently caller is one of them, trying to "isolate a loose player" by himself calling with 96s OOP, taking 2 streets to even notice a 3rd player in the hand. Last but not least, 4. Players, dealers, and floors, should definitely clamp down on people walking when they have live cards. Tossing a drink cup in a nearby trash can is one thing, but if you allow that, pretty soon, you have people walking to use a solver on their phone, discuss the hand with a friend at a table nearby, place sports bets while in a hand, etc. Yelling "your hand is dead if you don't sit back down" should be more effective than yelling "third man walking" which not enough dealers are on top of anyway.
Am I missing something? You can't shove and declare his hand dead because it is MP's turn to act, if it takes MP 5 seconds to fold the guy could be back in his seat, plus as much as it is weird it's not like he went to the bathroom, he went to a trash can a few feet away don't be THAT guy just play cards dude. Also yeah you win here but that its super results oriented playing 96 suited OOP isn't going to work out for you enough times to make it profitable.
I have 0 info on this, but I assume they kill peoples hands after they looked preflop and left them there to run to the bathroom instead of folding out of turn. I can’t imagine anywhere folding a players hand on the river because he went to the trashcan a couple feet away
Why is he asking Bart? It’s up to the floor either way. We all know that 4 people on the table would yell across the room for him to come back, and he would, and that would be that.
I’ve played at places that won’t deal you cards if your butt isn’t in the chair. Standing in front of your seat, no cards, must be sitting. Stand up with cards in front of you, hand dead instantly regardless of where action is.
If I was a dealer and someone bet, then walked to the trash can, I'd yell to him if the action changes when it is that players turn again. If he yells back to just fold, I get a small tip from the regular. If he rushed back and calls/raises, them I know I'm probably getting a better tip from the recreational player!
In the casino I play, if you walk away you folded. I have never seen someone walk away after raising. Everyone I have seen walk away has intended to fold.
I'll put out a steelman argument for this from experience. This has happened more than one and with more than one player. the situation goes similar to the following. A player keeps getting up from the table, often to talk to friends at other tables, watch other action get a drink or whatever. They aren't far from the table but over and over we run into the dealer or another needing to let them know the action is on them. Finally the rule is read verbatim and enforced as written. When action is on you and you are not seated/ at your place, the hand is dead regardless of whether you're in the blind or otherwise invested in the pot. The argument was that it's your job to protect your cards and you can't do that not being at the table. The one floor man explained that it doesn't matter if it's ten seconds or ten minutes, we don't want to create some arbitrary number/length of time because even that is going to be an issue. When did you start the clock, who's keeping time blah blah blah. I understand the man made an action that shows he is in the hand but then he left. Another player could simply min raise and if you're not there when action returns to you, the hands dead. We don't try to read minds or figure out what your play/angle is, play or dead, it's just black and white. In fact if you're called and the opponent shows a hand and you're not there to show yours, it's mucked, dead. I think that this in fact prevents more Angie shots than it allows. It's one simple clear rule for everyone and no feelings crap about waiting longer or too long etc. And I've watched several people who tank chronically long. Players will get up and step back from the table but they are watching and ready to return as soon as action continues. But I've heard people whining because they were walking back when action got to them and the dealers still kicked their hands. Dealers typically say, if I see you're paying attention I'll give you the chance but I'm not holding up the game, inconveniencing everyone else for your entitled ass. I mean what if everyone starts doing this and hands keep getting delayed. Oh sure then you'll have to change something or maybe just don't allow the bs to start and no change will be needed. The rules will be clear and consistent even if sometimes the circumstances and situation might tend to make us want to be lenient. And before anyone gets it all twisted, poker is a game of advantages, those are the profit margins so whining about legal angles is just silly and childish. I don't suggest we do things to take advantage of others except that's exactly what poker is all about. I don't think anyone should try to use this spot for an unfair advantage but even Bart recognized that by calling we can angle shoot the next opponent into folding a better hand. How is this less of an angle than just playing the situation within the rules? I don't think it is. Now strategy, keeping a weak player happy and in the game, giving them some lenience all of these things are fine. But to say we don't want to follow the rules if it's going to hurt a bad player. I for one think we all, good and bad want the game to be fair and equal for everyone. It doesn't give laws, politics or sports any integrity when we start finding excuses to bend and or not apply rules. It only shows the rules aren't real and are mostly arbitrary. So hell yeah, a player gives you an opportunity to take advantage of then you probably should. Otherwise are ya going to offer to chop when you're holding a straight flush and your opponent clearly has quads. It's really not fair to them, it's going to hurt them, they may leave the game and it's really scummy of you to push all in knowing they can't win and their hand is too strong to fold. So unless you're going to give people a break, a discount on those spots, why are we worried about fudging the rules here. Truthfully this only needs to happen once or twice and then it's clear what the rules are and it stops happening. Start giving warnings and I know I can do this as an angle and my hand won't be killed, I could come back and reraise or snap call. All I see ambiguity doing is creating more conflict. It might not seem fair this time but who's to say this same player hasn't been warned twelve times before but never had the rule enforced. Seems stupid to have rules if we don't enforce them. That's how you get people turning over other people's cards. Simple, straight forward clear and concise rules make the game more fun than arbitrary muddled rules that are subjectively enforced. You find poker is a microcosm representation of many things in life. And if you haven't experienced bad laws being subjectively and inconsistently applied you really haven't paid attention. If you've never played sports where officials make very one sided calls or been in social/political situations where authorities give disparate treatment. None of these situations are more enjoyable, make things better. So if you want to allow "a chance" where are you drawing the line. Is it ten seconds, a minute, does someone have to call a clock or can I take a bathroom break and the rest of the table has to wait my return? Applaud the caller who recognized a situation that could give him an advantage and he profitable while still being not just within the rules but actually using the rules. And bravo to all the fish who say " I'd never do something like that to take advantage of a person." Bully for you but rules like laws aren't made for those who won't break them. Others would and will take advantage, they will circumvent, bend and twist rules to their advantage, and they will completely and intentionally break rules. I don't want these decisions made by fish who would never dream of being unscrupulous, they aren't really a problem. I want decisions made presuming unscrupulous intent, preventing these situations from being questioned. When Hellmuth slides his cards to another player, they are dead. You no longer have possession, contract or " chain of custody". You folded, hand then to Johnny or the dealer, either way you relinquished your hand. It's a simple easy thing to just say that rather than try to figure out what everyone was thinking, meaning or intended. Guy says five into a $1400 pot and only throws in a $25 chip in a $2/5 game. Is it a $5 bet when he loses but a $500 bet when he wins? That's what you'll see happen when you allow ambiguity and then try to apply rules later based upon intent. Anyway just my take on it and I realize others have theirs.
@@estegerset First there is a limit Second it shows a certain degree of mental ineptitude to take the time and energy to reply only to say you do not have the attention span or comprehension skills to read more than a meme. But thank you for the reply.
Obviously English isn't your first language, so fair effort writing that. But you've been greatly misled on the term 'steelman'. Someone might be messing with you to have told you that's the term, you should look it up.
How do u feel about a player who never protects her hand no matter how many times she's told to ? Do you take advantage of her or try not to look or peep at her cards ?
So my big takeaway from this call is him saying he doesn't play with many pros at the Parx 2/5 which I will argue till I'm blue in the face that is one of the hardest 2/5 in the country.
I don't see why you would think the action 'roll back' if the walking player's hand was not auto mucked. He made a move (raise 200), you made a move (all in). At that point, the action is on him and there are some questions. Once the questions are answered (warning/no auto muck/whatever), the action would still be on the walker and he would now have a choice to fold or call.
I’ve been slow rolled twice by an elderly guy. It happened once in ‘16 and again in ‘18. I’ll never forget him, still tilts me to this day. I guess he does it to younger guys who look like they know what they are doing. If I ever see him again and get the chance to slow roll, I will. But I can just picture the table attacking me if I do.
Nothing like a revenge slow roll. I’ve never had the opportunity before thankfully because I’ve never been slow rolled bad enough but I’ve dreamt about how sweet it would be
I don't think it's fair to leave the table without saying anything after making a big bet like that, even for a minute. If a bet is actually pending, the other players have the prerogative of looking at you to check for tells. That's why people enjoy live poker. What was so important that made him get up and leave the table in that moment? He was definitely angling.
Hmm hero and villain both trying to clown out there and that doesn't sit well with me. I don't like bullshit at the table, so rest assured I see any player like either of these at the table, the joke is over.
Why would you rule in a tournament a different way? I mean where is the difference? In my opione you should start a Timer. E.g. 30 sec if villain hasnt made a dessicion in 30 sec (no matter why) the Hand is dead.
You need to be strict in a tournament with the rules. You got thousands of players and you can’t let there be a gray area in regards to a calling or else everyone would do that type of stuff.
Yes! I don’t know why nobody seems to do this. Probably because the floors / the dealers like having the leeway that the lack of published rules gives them.
not even a no talking at the table rule could possibly cover all angles. When you start playing you agree to allow the floor to make any final ruling decisions. I agree they should cover some of the most common rules but there really would be no way to compile a full comprehensive list. Even if somebody tried nobody would read it except people who literally use the rules to angle, and we're back to square 1.
@@witheringhs7766 You're right that there could be no comprehensive list. But there are so many little rules that differ from casino to casino that they could easily print out (like "betting a single chip without verbally announcing a raise constitutes a call, even if the value of the chip is high enough to be a raise"). Whenever I try to get a list of house rules at a casino that I've never been to before, they have nothing, even though for sure they keep some sort of a list to be able to train a new dealer. One place I remember actually had flyers with rules printed out, but they had run out of them, and didn't even hang on to a single copy that players could look at.
you really dont consider the player behind you on river even though you talked about it on turn and bluff called mp off the hand lol classic live poker hand
it's probably also the dealers job to inform the guy as he's leaving the table I would assume. If the dealer wants any respect from people he'd do it anyway.
If hero did jam & they ruled villain's hand is live (and say it was the nuts), hero would have a decent case for some kind of rebate if the casino did not apply the rules correctly.
