I’m a poker novice so don’t really know the etiquette. I don’t think the caller did anything wrong until he showed his hand. Just unnecessary at that point (he had already achieved what he needed) and guaranteed to foster a lot of ill will. But I also wouldn’t have known to offer villain to take his raise back and collect the pot and this was villain’s fault in the first place.
@@brendan3143 yeah a lot of people will think this is scummy, but he had a decent amount of money in the pot already and shouldn't be forced to just give up and fold when the villain shows a marginal hand.
In this bizarre scenario I'd snap call the turn and make the hero show his hand. You have to protect equity with cards shown (not that I'd ever do this). Also, assuming it happened this way, villain was an ahole being accusatory and calling the floor.
I have seen this situation a few times, and I have seen people battle for the pot knowing the exposed cards. Noone got mad. Actually, the people in the hands thought it was pretty funny, and it became a big game of "He knows that I know."
I just don’t understand how it worked. If I’m the villain here and my hand is exposed, I’m not folding. So he is going to have to get a hand that beats me and he can get a full double.
I agree, but in this case, showing the bluff caused the Villain to get upset and leave the table, reducing the action at the table. Probably best to not show the bluff.
Not an angle, and you have every right to play the way you did. Would've never shown my cards after he folded. Theres no good scenario that possibly could happen there if you show. Its all about redirecting his anger. By showing your hand, the anger is now mainly at you. If you muck, he'll still be mad at you but he's mostly angery at himself.
He's very very lucky assuming it even happened this way. I would have snapped off the turn as villain. You have to figure many more bluffs in opponents range as the villain here with cards shown. I would actually look for calling the flop and shoving the turn as a strategy.
Where I play, it's not really an option to offer a deal to take back bets or negotiate. I think I am okay with how this played out. It's the villain line. But poker needs villains sometimes.
Yup. Bart wasn't thinking this thru although I like the sentiment. These guys obviously weren't colluding but once you set a precedent for player A to get player B to fold then surrender the pot to Player C you might as well just announce that it's a team sport now
That's why you don't show your hand unless it's required to collect the pot. You gain nothing. You give free information. You risk shit like this happening. This applies to both players. The hero showing at the end gains nothing except for all of the regulars hating him. You could've gotten away with it and nobody would ever know.
It's kind of a stretch to say you "gain nothing" by showing. Some (certainly not all) players do so to forge an "image" and then take advantage of that image by doing the opposite.
I LOVE THIS! I have no time for scrubs that are as unaware as vill. If vill wants an honest hand to be played out, he needs to be accountable and disclose that he didnt notice heros cards. His big mistake was telling the floor that heros hand was hidden. Nah uh. Thats not how this works. Good for hero to absolutely own this man's soul and live through his other cronies throwing a fit. And hell yeah show the hand. Let them know! INJECT THIS INTO MY VEINS
Something similar happened in a live tournament I was just in. Three ways to the flop. BB bets out, I fold after him, BB flips over his trips jacks thinking the hand is complete and the guy on the button still in the hand thinks it over for a minute and then folds saying he can’t beat it anyway.
I flipped my cards over too early once. Dude shoved on me I had to call off Mr A did nothing wrong this game wasn’t with pennys nickles at Grandmas house. Man up villan
Sick play. Not an angle, but to borrow a gamer word it was “try-hard” and the villain felt it. It was villains fault and hero took the opportunity. Villain still could have thought about and asked himself “is he ever bluffing here?” And it makes a great story which is +ev
I have been in a similar situation a few years ago. On the river we are HU. I am in position. My opponent (a younger woman) is thinking and sort of shaking hands. The dealer perceives this as a check and the dealer says check and points to me that it is my turn. I don't have a strong hand, so I say check quickly and show my cards. Now my opponent says she didn't check at all, that she just shook her hands because she is nervous. The floor comes to the table and says that the hand should continue and I can play with open cards. My hand is not dead. So she gets a second chance to act. But she has seen my cards and that they are weak. If I remember correctly, I have the third pair. She thinks for a moment and makes a big bet, a little over the size of the pot. My thought process now was that if she saw that I had a bad hand and she wants more money, she shouldn't bet so big. So I have better than her, I thought. I call. And sure enough, she had a worse garbage hand. In retrospect, I have learned that the floor was wrong. If the dealer perceives her hand movement as a check, that's what it is. The player is responsible for her movements with her hands, cards and chips. At the time I was upset, but in retrospect I am happy because I won a much bigger pot! Mr. Anonymous did nothing wrong. If you cannot bluff or lie, that means you must always tell the truth. Aren't bluffing and lying two of the more important aspects of poker? //End of story!
not an angle. i have been on the opposite end of this scenario, where I was in the other guy's shoes. I flipped over my hand prematurely after the turn because i wasn't paying attention to who was left in the hand. I had top pair, an open-ended straight flush draw (one of which was the royal). The hand plays on, my opponent bets into me for a pretty sizable amount relative to the pot. I think he is trying to push me off my hand, i sit there and calculate my outs, and i came to the number of like 23 or 26: any straight making card, any flush making card, any trips making card, and maybe any two pair making card (this particular oppenent had been chasing straights and flushes all night, so i put him on two pair or a draw). Anyway, massive draw, i jam for his effective stack, he calls, and turns over bottom two pair. I of course do not hit my outs and he scoops. Moral of the story is: Protect your hand.
I was in a WSOP side tournament and the dealer pushed me the pot and took my cards after I raised preflop. I was BB in seat 1. Two limpers folded. SB was in seat 10. Floor called. Told floor my hand, hoping to retrieve my cards. No dice. I got to take back my raise but lost my BB…..
This happened to me only the guy was young and cocky intentionally showing his top pair to try and get me to fold. I raised with nothing, and he folded, and I showed telling him it was easy to play poker if I know your hand. Anyway, the guy did nothing wrong. Great play, even better show. Ask Phil Ivy. He always knows who is in a hand, even when the mouth checks out of turn.
In this spot, I’d just play my hand as if I hadn’t seen villain’s hand. So I’d fold 5 high with a backdoor wheel draw. If I had a hand that wants to play shove, either as a bluff or value, I’ll shove. If I have a hand that wants to call, I’ll call. I will just play my hand optimally against the range as if I didn’t know the hand.
It was the villain's mistake, so all options are available. When I am playing amoung friends if we want to stay in we will call and agree to check it down from there. That's a home game environment though. I've never seen that at a casino though.
Not an angle imo. A player failed to protect his cards during a live hand and his opponent reacted to it / made decisions based on it. It's clear why this call is anonymous.
Obv sucks for the guy who folded, but it's in the bluffers interest to show the bluff, it improves his table image, he might get callers in the future. So totally fair game.
wow nice effort by the villain in this hand! forgets a player is in the hand, exposes his hand like a jackass, tries to shift the blame off of his mistake by falsely accusing hero of wrongdoing, then gets mad and storms off like a little child when he gets exploited. man im just dumbfounded. like how did you think it would go when you exposed your hand in a poker game???
At plenty of casinos, the floor might or might not let you cut a deal to return his bet and take the pot. Somewhere like Foxwoods, the ruling is more likely "Action is on you, the bet is $300". Anything other than that might be considered condoning soft play, which they simply will never do. No checking it down, no chopping a pot with even $1 of other people's money in it, etc. But some floors might still ask what deal the two of you want to agree to, then ask if anyone at the table objects. With unanimous consent, in a genuine mistake situation, they'll usually allow you to do what you agree, if it settles it right then with no more cards dealt. They generally will not enforce a deal specifying action on cards not yet dealt, such as checking it down. Of course that's somewhere that never allows running it twice, never allows rabbit hunting, always makes straddling optional even if everyone "agreed" to a round of straddles, etc. Hero did nothing wrong, but I also he did nothing smart. You are SO likely to get called down in that spot, that I simply think it's -EV doing what he did. It was also not smart to show, because it's a real poke in the eye to someone who is already very upset about the situation. You don't know who they are or what they'll do, because it will seem like a personal attack rather than a poker attack. If I were wanting to show to poke them in the eye, which I see ZERO reason to do, I'd be sneakier. I'd show it to someone next to me, or maybe show my whole end of the table, and give villain a couple seconds to demand "show one, show all". Then I'd push the cards in to the dealer so that I'm not the person showing the cards. But far better is quietly mucking the cards, with or without saying "good fold, you were drawing live"
This is pretty good. If someone did that to me I would give them a high five and say 'well played". People take everything so seriously. Nice move! I like bluffing and I like getting bluffed. It's a huge part of the game.
"He made an honest mistake." Don't flip or release on a non-showdown until the chips are pushed to you, and you won't make this mistake. Regarding the very last bit of the video, I called out I had a straight a couple of months ago, but I didn't. I needed the J not the Q that hit on the river. Had my opponent mucked before I showed, I'd have given him the pot. He was smart enough to wait before he mucked. But I did flip immediately so it was clear I was just an idiot and not an asshole.
What a hand! What the hero did was BRILLIANT. Here's the thing: it's poker. We're here to take your money. It's not going to be all puppies and roses. It's the same thing when someone "hollywood's" and tries to pretend they missed. You take what information you get and use it. It's the game. BUT I don't know if I would have showed... especially since I'm a woman. I don't want a target on my back.
I always choose seat 9 (or 8) first at an empty table. The chances of the next seat (seat 1) acting out of turn skyrockets. Back in the day, circa 1999 - 2009, if players next to me weren't exposing their hole cards, it probably wasn't a good game.
Fuck it if he plays regularly and makes that mistake it's on him. You're the only person accountable for your own mistakes at a poker table I've made this mistake before myself and just had to cop it and learn to be more aware going forward
A. I. would have called or raised as in the discussion above. A human would have called into a talk show to talk etiquette and ethics. For those suggesting rules of ethics can be taught to Quantum powered Intelligence consider this. About thirty years ago I was watching a local show discussing the difference between laws that is the rules of the societal game and ethics. The point was that while ethics may encourage us to be nicer people they can be ignored while laws cannot. I personally thought that this was insane ass backwards. Often times I hear talk on why things are so upside down and chaotic in the present year and I'm not in the least surprised.
H did V a favour by showing his cards at the end. And for free! Otherwise, V would never knew what hand beat him. So, that was very nice of Mr. Anonimous.
The guy acted in bad faith to take advantage of someone's mistake. I don't get how he wants to do that but then appear as the good guy. He didn't cheat, but he sure didn't win any favours, especially with tabling the hand like he discounted combos because he got to see his opponent's hand. If I was at the table, this is a guy I would never want to have anything to do with. Take the money, leave your honour at the door sir. You don't get both.
After accusations of hiding cards were thrown around, I’m taking advantage. That’s a stab at someone’s character, and that was said before any call was made by Mr. Anonymous. Sorry not sorry 🤷🏼
It's not just an innocent mistake, it's a blatant error that the villian shouldn't have made, as caller put it "rookie." The villian didn't pay attention because he was singularly focused, that's completely on him. That's like if an outfielder drops an easy catch, and then the runner just stops out of sportsmanship.
Very entitled comment. You can say tabling your cards was an honest mistake, but then proceeding to accuse hero of hiding his cards because you’re upset about the situation *you* caused is simply out of line. Also, hero isn’t required to play his hand in a manner that makes decisions easier for you because of a blatant error *you* made. It is 100% up to you to make turn and river decisions going forward, regardless if hero decides to use the information provided to him to his advantage or not. Rather than having this weird sense of entitlement you should use the situation as a learning moment to be more table aware before showing your hand.
Poker is about making fewer mistakes than your opponents. If an opponent makes a mistake it is my right to take advantage of it. It's definitely NOT an angle but it's also not necessary to show the hand. In the end it doesn't really matter...
I 3 bet 10-7 off pre flop and thought everyone folded but the guy beside me was still in the hand so he raised me like 2x ,I called, I flopped 2 pair and he stood up and started freaking out and left the whole table was dieing laughing for like 5 mins
The only thing done in poor form was showing the bluff. The caller took advantage of a mistake, and did it well, but there was no need to rub salt in the wound being a non regular. I think the more often you play with the villian the less of an offense this hand is.
So the villain told the floor the hero was hiding his cards? Let's give V all the credit in the universe, just for conversation, and say that were true. So you're telling me he still failed to follow the flop action and also didnt see the flop bet still in front of hero? V had MANY indicators of Hero being in the hand. He should just own his mistake and not be a little bitch about it. He also could have called on the turn. TLDR: V is just a baby with no observation skills who likely tried to angle the floor into an favorable ruling in order to avoid paying for his mistake. THAT right there is the only "scumbag" move I saw here.
Rule number one- protect your hand. If we are playing for MONEY, any play/move that is clearly within the rules is acceptable. Caller did not cheat, nor did he do anything that was even close to cheating. Do what you can to win the pot and leave your feelings at the door.
I'd go with it is within the bounds of fair play and not an angle That said I do think there is some level of obligation to sort out how to proceed before continuing the flop and avoiding continuing this hand if at all possible. Also yeah tabling the hand at the end is definitely bad manners Regarding the quadruple barrel bluff video that was obviously different and while I kind of understand why some might see it differently from stealing someone's wallet your comparison was 100% correct.
Im just folding, lm at a poker table for the challenge not the pure $$$$ aspect. HOWEVER once opponent accused me of hiding my cards because of HIS MISTAKE, oh hell no! And his friends that berate me I would point out this VERY IMPORTANT fact!
I don’t agree with the proposed offer for the villain to take the raise back since it caused the SB to fold. Opens up horrible collusion opportunities in the future if that shit is allowed. Hero played it perfectly except the show at the end wasn’t necessary or recommended in my opinion. “What do you want me to do fold KJ ? ….would have been a better play/fib
Literally, all long-term profit in poker comes from using angles obtained through information leaks and exploiting mistakes. It only gets into gray areas when you start doing things to make your opponent leak information, creating angles rather than taking those you're given. This guy did nothing to make his opponent give away all the info he held and make a huge mistake. Heck, if Villain had mucked after saying good fold rather than exposing his hand, the pot would be Hero's. In some rooms exposing your hand would kill it and the pot would STILL be Hero's as played! Villain was fortunate to have the opportunity to act and try to win anyway - he could've shoved first - but chose not to take it. Should he have shown the bluff? Dude put the entire table on tilt! If he had the experience to handle that better, it would've been pretty brilliant, really. But that's not a fun way to play poker, so he probably shouldn't have done it. Villain would've been in his own head anyway and massively exploitable and still at the table. That's probably a better scenario. It doesn't make him an asshole to do, though, poker's a mental game!
Easy snap off against a very bluffy shove. And him trying to be "tricky" calling the flop and jamming the turn should only work against very weak players as the villain. Hand seems dubious anyhow- no way should villain fold there.
Some people will call this ok but I put it on par with stealing a purse from an unconscious woman. Then again, you saw a flop out of position with crap for cards, missed the flop and called the SB's flop bet so you had to be setting up a bluff. If he hadn't shown, he likely would have called your turn shove.
This is the equivalent of boxing, where you are supposed to protect yourself at all times. The opponent didn't protect himself, so he's fair game at this point.
Wouldn't a heart be a great card to shove on? If you know he's drawing to the K high flush, the implication when a third heart comes is that you have the A high flush.
If I'm the guy with K6 hearts I would definitely have the inclination to sniff out the reverse psychology of this move and call , and offer to run it twice
As a poker player you should be aware, don't matter if it's a mistake. If I was the guy who showed his hand I would not get mad. Only at myself. It's no one's fault, but you're owe.
Nothing wrong with any of this, the villain had an awesome opportunity to read the situation. He had to know hero would try to take advantage. He was tilted and wasn’t thinking straight.
True. I once had an overpair (JJ vs AT on T high board, playing 5-10NL at Foxwoods), villain calls my turn bet with TPTK, tables his hand thinking it had been the river. He just left them there face up as the river card came and was a blank. I took 30 or 60 seconds to choose my bet amount, not because it was technically difficult, but because I was trying to figure out whether he would knee-jerk punish his own mistake by folding to an all in no matter what, or by calling no matter what. I didn't come up with an answer, so I bet half our remaining effective stack, both to make it more likely he'd call due to pot odds maybe even overriding a knee-jerk tendency to fold. And it was still a bit over pot size. But he absolutely snap called in 0.1 seconds, so I clearly should have shoved, unless his thinking was "I'll snap anything but a shove". So my own recommendation, is to bet $50 short of the remaining effective stack, so he maybe thinks I am saving some money for dinner/gas/whatever while bluffing. I think bluffing into someone who showed a good hand before showdown by mistake, is generally a very bad idea. Too likely to get snapped off.
If was the guy that exposed his cards the take back my raise and you take the pot solution would have been given very short shrift. Top pair + flush draw. I think in most cases the villain would have stubbornly called down no matter what to not be bluffed. Might have needed an ace to even make him think about it. Not in this case admittedly. No angle at all by the way. Villain's own fault.
I’m kind to the people who are kind towards me or at least are nice in general. When you accuse me of “hiding my cards” and act like an Ahole, then all bets are off. The Villain should own his mistake and move on. He should also be careful with berating people too much, because many times a pot will be the least of your losses.
Agreed. Villain made a mistake, and instead of owning it, he tried to get the floor to make some ruling in his favor, and lied about the hero's cards. He actually induced hero to do this with his own bad behavior.
Hi Bart, thanks for all that great works you do to improve my fishy game :). I think like always that mistakes should be assume. The question is do i play regulary with that guy or is he a random? I'll be "a gentleman" as you said with regulars or whales in my usual poker room but if not, i use that mistake to my advantage wich is what we must do at poker.
Yeah this seems hokey. That being said I would have snap called the turn as the villain due to the circumstances, or snap shoved if checked to for equity protection.
