Should YOU CARE about FOC? | I know I don't! 

Vv

With the efficiency of todays bows compared to the old stuff, virtually anything now is gonna hit like a daggum Mack truck, especially if it’s got some weight to it. I took a long time off from bow shooting/hunting, and I’m shopping around for a new bow now, and let me tell ya, after shooting my old bow from the Reagan era, then going to the shop to shoot some of the new ones, it’s not even close, despite being the same draw weight as my old bow. I mean these new bows are freaking rocket launchers. I think people just need to dial in the setup that’s MOST ACCURATE for them, and to Hell with all these details, because accuracy is still the king of a clean kill, and any arrow with a decent broadhead coming outta one of these new bows is gonna freaking hurt if it hits the mark.

what brand arrow and broadhead do you use for this build. I am going bear hunting this sep 2021. and looking to build a heavier arrow. thx

He missed some very important points, but hey its RU-vid.

Short people are people too!!!

I’m 5’4” as well and slender build so I only have 55 Pound bow. I have to shoot a really short d loop with a short neck thumb button to get to 27 inch draw. I don’t sweat about draw weight or FOC cuz I don’t hunt. Just shooting for fun.

Fellow dwarven archer checking in

5' 6" so I am not much taller..... :)

Outdoors Allie aren’t you getting a solid FOC % with you smaller draw length without trying? Assuming you aren’t using fmj’s anymore...

Completely agree. I went too heavy last year just getting good arrow flight. 660 TAW. Did I blow through three shoulder on the same amount of deer? Yes, but I would have liked a lighter arrow. 500-575 TAW is my goal this year. %FOC isn't a total worry to me. I shoot broadside/quarter away treestand whitetails 90% of the time under 40 yards. Just like some oompf if I need it.

In his defense, it was difficult to achieve this arrow setup, and expensive.

@@samanderson9267 that still sounds like a hill style trajectory. Care to say more?

@@BrownCreature and? Nothing learning to properly range distance and carrying a rangefinder won't cure plus you're able to utilize an arrow system with more potential for lethality. When recover rates are like they are the community needs more people shooting better arrow systems with a willingness to put in the work to utilize their equipment more efficiently.

@@mjkeat Do you have specs on recovery rates these days?

@@russelllangworthy8855 unfortunately not but I do follow a few trackers and have been doing some research. I also like to inquire when hunters post looking for tracking dogs. Another great source of info is hunters themselves. Processors are a source of info as well. Recovery rates are likely abysmal and not something we'd want to be published I'd venture to guess. I believe that's a common sentiment amongst hunters. I imagine this is why it's been difficult to gather info on this topic.

Any results to share or is it too early yet where you live?

I built a 600 g arrow 21% foc this year. All i know is this, over the last 5 years with 430g arrow/mech broadhead I killed one deer. Lost 4 including one bounce off of a deer. This year, with the new arrow I’m 28”dl and 60#dw……….. i killed two deer. Both died within site of my stand. One was a pass through. The other broke the opposite shoulder. Trajectory? Who gives a crap at 20 yards. I’ll take the results of deer dead in 10 seconds and 30 yards.

@@decaturridgebees8761 You pretty much summed up my experience with a light and mechanical setup. I have lost 2 deer and 1 I know for sure was due to the mechanical head. The arrow literally skipped down the side of the deer and appeared to just be under its fur. I learned after that to only take direct broadside shots or slightly quartering. That exact same angle is perfectly fine with a Montec G5 full pass through in the vitals. When I switched to one piece cut on contact heads the deer started dropping in sight. I looked into more arrow build advice and realized what moving the weight forward does to the stiffness of the arrow at impact. Now I shoot a 560gr arrow with a 20% FOC and they are darts. Wind doesn't bother them and when they hit the target it is a harder impact than what I was used to with a 450gr arrow.

Ranch Fairy actually knows his stuff.

@@Thisshitcrazybruh He's a buffoon.

@@russelllangworthy8855 I’m not gonna deny that, but if you take his advice with a grain of salt, there’s a lot to learn from him.

@@Thisshitcrazybruh I would guess I've been bowhunting longer than he's been alive. I doubt that he has any information that I'm not familiar with.

@@russelllangworthy8855 Well, not all of us have several decades of experience. I’m only 23, and I’m coming off the speed bow craze, so his ideas are useful to a young buck like me. I am curious what arrow setup you use though. I’m big on gleaning advice from old timers.

Plus, that High Country is a straight up KILLING MACHINE. 😁

But is it the FOC or the total mass that increased your penetration? Back when aluminum arrows were popular people got pass throughs all the time shooting slow bows and those were heavy arrows with very little FOC.

@@stick__shooter total mass contributes but the weight by itself isn't the entire picture. Higher FOC facilitates better flight. The forward mass pulls the arrow through the target which promotes higher levels of penetration. There are other benefits and lots of videos on RU-vid explaining them.

Nothing on an arrow "pulls".

@@mjkeat If you really go in depth with Ashby studies you'll notice that he uses different bows with different arrow setups and his data doesn't show results with today's fast powerful compounds compared to long bows. There is more correlation between total mass and penetration in his data than FOC.

@@bmills231 Maybe the terminology is wrong but it's an action similar to putting a paper clip on the nose of a paper airplane, weights on the front of a pine wood derby car, a badminton bird and so on. It's physics.

There's always a solution if you are determined to find it.

True. Also, he has the data (incl. radar) & anecdotal evidence to back it up. Like the lady shooting a 34# bow killing an Asiatic Water Buffalo with a frontal shot.

The Kure at full letoff legally gets to 30.5". I then work some magic to get another 1/4" out of it and end up with 30.75" draw. Not too shabby. Ends up feeling REALLY good in the end and I don't mind it being a fuzz short for a hunting bow as it just takes off the edge of a draw length that's too long when I'm cold and out of shape. 🤣

@@averagejackarchery do you also cheat a bit with a longer D-loop?

@@robstofberg1 No. I haven't cheated that hard in years! Lol! Some bows feel better shorter and some longer.

45 lbs 550gr Find that hard to believe at 45 yards , 20yards maybe. Im calling that BS

@@travistwwreck1535 That would be a slow ass arrow 😂

@@brutallyhonestmf5578 Slow. Throwing a rock at the deer would be faster , what's the FPS you recon . ill guess 70 with a tail wind in a cyclone .🤣

Haha typical speed guy reply! Obviously it will be slower than your setup. The point being is at 45# she blew thru the antelope which by the way is the FASTEST animal in North America. Stalking, approach and execution is still a huge part of this equation. Its actually the whole concept behind true, woodsmanship bowhunting. Bowhunters are concerned with killing the animal quickly. Dead as a doornail! Archers are concerned with hitting the animal. 2 different mindsets. Same equipment ( the bow) Yet all under the umbrella marketing of “ bowhunting” Its an industry that realizes they garner more profit from the “ bowhunter” side than the target archery side. So they blend the two for profit. Throwing pure bowhunters and live animal target archers all in one arena having everyone arguing over speed, penetration, arrow weights, FOC etc. All the while laughing at the very people they sell their products too. Watching the profits roll in because of all the arguments over the inherent physics of the craft. Consumer consumer consumer. The US is no longer the globally dominating, high quality producers and manufacturing that we once was. The USA is now the global leaders in consumerism. We have been sold as the worlds cash pot, sell to the Americans, they buy anything and everything. They consume consume and consume en masse. We can thank other Americans for this. Namely American presidents and administration. They always have you looking at this and that. Buying this and that. To keep you from even noticing what the US people have become. So now killing an animal to eat and survive is reality, more than going outdoors hoping to HIT an animal. ( sport archery) Americans are doing this to Americans. Its a sad thing to say, but true. We like to believe its other countries doing this to us. Our govt ( Americans) allowed all of this yet slink away unaccountable. “American made” broadheads yet made overseas. Sourced from overseas materials. Still claiming USA made. Small American broadhead crafters who sell their companies to large umbrella corporations for lump sum profit ( would you do it?) the corporation then outsources production to keep cost low and profit margins high, yet keep the once well trusted USA brand going under false pretenses. Americans selling out Americans for the bottom line- profit All the while people being distracted by this new tech and that new tech. Keep the masses arguing over grain weights, FOC vs speed and pin gaps. As long as they are distracted they will spend. Bowhunting is high effective killing for sustenance. Not wether kuiu is better than sitka blah blah blah. Consume, argue, consume, debate, consume, change your mind about equipment, consume once again. Buy buy buy In that order. God bless the USA!

Oh, and to add to this, I do not cut the shafts or replace fetching, I have only shot the arrows the exact way they come from gold tip.... Also have the switch activated lighted nocks

Nope. Standard inserts for my VForce and regular lighted nocks for hunting. Nothing fancy.

@@averagejackarchery What about straightness? Was thinking about trying the elite version. Or, does that really not matter?

I shoot 003 arrows for just about everything because I like straight arrows but have a budget. I'd shoot 001 if money was more free but that's more because I'm spoiled more than it's actually necessary.

The cost difference for .001 is typically miniscule compared to .003. Will it make a noticeable difference when hunting, not really. Will it increase the shooters confidence, probably. If ethics is a concern of yours why not spend the little extra? Again, it's likely nothing more than a mental thing but... Take a look at Victory's RIP Gamer arrow. It's a .204 shaft, smaller diameter will increase penetration potential. They're in the $10.50 price range. As far as inserts go, they can be very important, possibly the difference between an ethical harvest and not being able to recover your deer. Structural integrity is extremely important. If an insert fails it could drastically effect penetration and direction of trajectory through the animal. Ethics Archery makes a high quality insert/outsert system and they're not that expensive. They are 16.99 per pack of 3 and come in a variety of weight options starting at 80 grains. Something to keep in mind... When I hunt I'm typically there to harvest 1 deer at a time thus a quiver full of arrows seems silly. I started bringing 3 arrows with me into the woods. That helps offset the slight increase in cost of a more lethal and efficient arrow. Broadheads can get pricey. I have a set of 150 grain Magnus Stinger Buzzcuts on my hunting arrows right now and have a set of VPA 175 grain one piece heads in the mail. The Magnus cost $39 and the VPA are $59 which are both quite reasonable. Remember though, when you purchase brands like Iron Will, Valkyrie and so on those heads will last a lifetime of hunting. The $100 price tag quickly shows value when you're able to use them over and over and over again. They are made out of superior materials and are noticeably sharper. They are also going to out perform most other heads. Not knowing your arrow shaft length makes it difficult but I currently run 550 grain total arrow weight with somewhere around 20% FOC on a 28.5 carbon to carbon shaft length and 29 in. draw length @ 65 pounds. It calculates to around 243 fps. They were super easy to tune and fly perfectly in this Kansas wind. Don't let anyone talk you into shying away from a higher FOC arrow. They simply perform. Unfortunately deer don't like to stand still and us humans don't always make perfect shots regardless of how much time we invest in practicing. Watch enough RU-vid hunting videos and it starts to become quite clear why higher foc arrows make sense. My buddy harvested a nice bodied 8pt. this year with a 545 grain arrow. It was a frontal shot that almost traveled the length of the bucks body. If it hadn't been slight angled it would have come out it's butt. The arrow went through the heart, lung, ribs then 10 yards into the dirt. It was a forensic scientist wet dream straight out of a horror movie. The deer went 40 and crashed so hard he folded over 2 small 6' tall sapplings/trees as he fell.

@@mjkeat Could you repeat that?

Stock 22 grain insert.

If I were hunting with a muzzleloader with no sights I would need to get a lot closer than I would with a sub moa scoped rifle. Hunting with trad bows is a completely different game than hunting with a modern compound. I have a 30" draw which allows an energy advantage over some. I've shot deer as close as 14 yards and as far as 38 yards and both felt equally rewarding. The equipment and the archers ability to consistently shoot accurately coupled with the hunters ability to read the animals behavior/body language and all other conditions, other animals presents, how much noise is in that area ( wind, bugs, birds, etc.). It wasn't that long ago that trad archers would talk of string jumping or animals just taking a step as enough reason to call 40 yards to far for a compound shot on a deer but when the math was done my compound gets that arrow to 40 yards as fast as any trad shooting to 25 yards and just as accurately if not more accurately with more energy. If one chooses to limit themselves for the challenge so be it. If one chooses to acquire more skill and decrease their limitations so be it. Where does this statement archery is about getting close come from?

Just sit back & enjoy it Mr. Trad Archer. The thing about the FOC is compound hunters are discovering what trad bowmen already know. You all have been killing large animals with low poundage bow with heavy arrows with high FOC stone heads for centuries. Then, switched to metal heads single bevel & double bevel cut on contact heads. Target.FITA shooters have been shooting 8-12% FOC for a long time. PS I shot Orange XX75 & camo XX 78s both with 125gr heads. Back in the day. Easton still makes camo XX75s.

So you have a 350 gr shaft?

@@conradsmith6037 yup black eagle rampage 250 spine cut to 28 and some change. 74lb 30.5 inch draw.

@@conradsmith6037 10.7 grain per inch 10 grain for the nock 26 for the fletching 50 grain hit insert and 125 grain point.

Perfect arrow flight and razor sharp fixed blade broadheads solve 90% of people's passthrough problems. The former is almost never tuned and latter never considered. Easy to achieve both with today's technology. Leave the weight alone.

Thank you for taking the time answering my question. I really enjoy your videos.

And I do agree with you on the fixed blade broad heads. I’m fairly new to archery I started 5 years ago and fell in love with it. My only regret is I didn’t start earlier.

As you increase the weight of the shaft of the arrow and maintain the weight of insert/point, the foc will decrease.

Structural integrity

Great question! So I shot GT arrows for YEARS for everything. Hunting, 3D, indoor, etc. Never had a problem with them. But the one thing I didn't like, and it's an all company problem not just a GT problem, was the dinky little inserts that come stock with their shafts. Now, of all the dinky little inserts the GT's were the best holding, but still not ideal. So I used their brass or steel inserts which were much beefier and gripped really well. The weight just wasn't ideal for trajectory/speed at 550ish grains past 25 yards once I left the hunting woods. When I discovered Victory, their stock inserts were (still are) the biggest and heaviest in the industry, offered excellent adhesion and integrity, and since it wasn't 100 grains of brass, it lowered my overall weight from 100 to 22 grain inserts. Plus, their shafts ended up being cheaper for the same build quality so I ended up using them the past few years!

I wondered if the RF (shoot adult arrows) would be mentioned. I was thinking the same thing as you. Guys have jumped on the RF arrow wagon and haven't considered that RF has a ranch in Texas and hunts hogs from treestands at known distances. So the loss of speed from high FOC arrows is not an issue. Plus the extra FOC on hogs is a necessity. But hunting deer at unknown yardages, the archer should seek to find the balance between arrow weight and speed to get the best of both.

@@halfstep67 I'm surprised how many sheep have followed the RF into the heavy arrow thing. I guess create a youtube channel, yell at people, tell them thier wrong and Im right and laugh at the camera. I guess that's all it takes to create a following of sheep.

It was also the same with the Ashby reports. African animals over watering holes or other more guided hunts. Definitely all shots under 25 yard. Known yardages, tested shot angles, etc.

@@acanuck3267 Once the arrow leaves the bow, two things are required. First it must get to the target and then into/thru the target. Some guys get hung up on the into/thru the target and never consider that the arrow must get to the target first. Even though RF is right about some things, it is causing guys to fix problems that they don't have. And this itself becomes a problem.

I don't follow Ranch Fairy much but I can't recall him saying one needs a 650gr arrow w/19% foc to breach deer bone. I believe he has mentioned it's not required for deer bone and that the 650/19 is for high density bone. Deer do not fall into the high density category. The Ashby reports relay the same. Heavy arrows have been around since arrows became a thing, 60k to 70k years ago in Africa where they were made from; wood, stone and bone. It's not until recently that fast/light have come onto the scene and it's nothing more than a marketing scheme for the sake of generating revenue. Folks like to focus on the weight/FOC component of the 12 Factors of Penetration. If you're familiar you'll note FOC/weight is #3 on the list. The list is organized from most important, #1, to least important, #12. Structural integrity and perfect arrow flight are #1 and #2. #3, FOC, is a byproduct of #1, it just happens. There are a lot of misconceptions out there even by folks who shoot more lethal/ increased weight/ higher foc arrows. My suggestion is to follow the Ashby Foundation on RU-vid and FB as well as Lethal Podcast on your favorite podcast app. One of the guys from Lethal Podcast frequents the Heavy Arrow Hunt Club FB page. There are a lot of very knowledgeable individuals on that FB page. I'd recommend folks follow that page.

Like I said, it's hard nowadays to get an arrow that has crap FOC. Really have to try and build one that low. I find anything 9% and up is a sweet spot for ease of tuning.

@@averagejackarchery thanks! Do you find at 9% that arrows will group at distances well?

@@toddlymburner5783 I've never had an issue out to 60. Farthest I'd shoot in practice.

Not true high foc alone does not have better penetration its a myth. If your getting better penetration with higher foc it's only because it helped stabilized arrow flight. In which case the bow is out of tune. High foc is more important for traditional bows with limited tuning options. You can prove this to yourself very easily by building two identical arrows with the only difference being one is high foc and one is not. Note it is also important the bow is perfectly tuned. High foc does not increase penetration. Factors like total mass, broadhead design, and sharpness, along with perfect arrow flight are Factors that will increase or decrease penetration, not foc. Also archery is a balancing act. Traditional bow hunter extream foc and super heavy arrows makes all the sense in the world.

@@jhuntley575 high foc does aid in penetration bud. The weight in the front pulls the rest of the arrow with it, and is much easier than the back of the arrow trying to push. Its simple physics

@@mikeguy9668 High F.O.C. is not always needed. I have a 30" draw and can put my 300 spine 415gr. arrow with 10% f.o.c. deep if not through any animal in N. America. There are many variables that dictate an archers optimal set up. Many Variables.

@@jowho9992 and there are many variables that will stop your arrow in its tracks where a heavier and higher foc arrow will keep going. Alot of things aren't always "needed" but are sure nice to have when things get hairy

@@mikeguy9668 Would you like to recommend the correct draw weight to be used as well? Why stop there? Tell us the max distance and the minimum level of consistent accuracy that should be allowed. I suppose the 10 year old boy and the 12 year old girl that I witnessed on YT easily arrowing and killing deer would somehow be an exception to your opinions. Or would they? Can you F.O.C. your way through that? Now it's getting hairy.🎯

I'm guessing you'd be around a 29-29.5" arrow, and I would definitely shoot a 300 spine with the specs you described.

I have 2 packs of 125gr Black Hornets (Ser Razor) on order. They look wicked. Have had very good results. Looks like a very good set up.

At your specs, needing a 550 arrow is BEYOND overkill. Why feel the need to do that when you're pushing 32/70?

@@averagejackarchery I dont know just sounded cool. Maybe ill go lighter upfront just like the idea of a solid insert

Also its hard to find a 200 spine arrow that wont be heavy

My dad shot heavy broadheads from his compound bow in the 80s and 90s. Focusing on Arrow weight isn't a fad we are just now realizing that the push for everyone to shoot light arrows and 100gr heads wasn't good advice. I think most people would do great just by going to a 150gr head and keeping the rest of their arrow the same. Easton's site has a FOC section, and it states "Generally, for target archery, an F.O.C. range of 7-15% indoors, and 10-15% outdoors, will fly with good stability, optimal momentum, and accurate trajectory from 0-90 meters. Past this range can cause vertical dispersion at longer distances, especially with lower overall mass arrows." For Hunting they recommend 10% - 15% but it doesn't take much to get to 18% - 20% which won't stop at any bone you happen to hit. I think mechanical heads were the worst thing any of us could be shooting. Next to that the broadhead weights being to light was also no good. I have had plenty of full pass-through shots with a sharp Montec G5 but none hit heavy bone.

nice

Same

Makes sense that with a slower arrow out of a trad bow the weight up front can be more. when a higher speed compound bow pushes the nock thru the static heavy head - you need lots more spine to stop it folding in half - more spine = more gpi as Jack said. Slower arrows rely more on momentum than kinetic energy - I like momentum above kinetic any day - but with compounds the balance may be a tad different?

That's an excellent piece of math advice! I'm definitely stealing that one. Thanks!

@@averagejackarchery Seems that may be a good starting place to check your arrow tune. I think the bottom line is the arrow needs to fly straight.