Should You Lead Worship Songs From/Written By Bethel Music? 

Yes!! A reformation in worship is needed so badly! I agree whole heartedly.

I no longer listen to contemporary Christian music. Too many of those songs do not glorify God, but glorifies man. Hymns are refreshing!!

I have been sensing this for a while now that we not only need a worship reformation but also a prostetant reformation. Protestanism today has come to such a crazy place where worship is all about me and disgustingly glorified and the sermons have become so much more about "how are you feeling today and here's a bible story that will help you get up" rather than expounding on the cross and the revelation of Jesus. Today, services are more about the people and their feelings and climbing mountains and the healings than salvation, sanctification, the coming of Jesus and his reign. It is sad to see this. So yes, a reformation is more than overdue!

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate what you brought to the table in this video. 2.5 yrs ago the worship leader in the church I attended had a true conviction that the church needed to remove Hillsong, Bethel, and Elevation music from the roster. It became a bone of contention and the church leadership made it clear that they were not willing to remove the music because they did not want to offend anyone. Offending the God who convicted the worship leader did not seem to be a worry. You are correct when you say that the church needs to have a reformation regarding worship. Your wife’s analogy of the toilet water is spot on and it can be applied to so many of the worldly things that are creeping into the church.

Excellent Jesse! Thanks.

I’m with your wife. Even the devil mixes truth with lies because his heart is evil and innately deceptive for his own purposes. Considering the devil was the “worship leader” of Heaven back in the day, I am VERY leery of music that originates from there because they are in bed with/at the table of the devil. The devil knows EXACTLY what we need to hear (words and sound) to skew/blaspheme God and His word while we THINK we are praising and glorifying Him because we are not discerning and don’t know the Word of God well. Also, my thinking is that it’s one thing for musicians of the world and to be on stage with those that they don’t care for, but we are meant to be different. To me, if a “Christian” musician leads people in the audience into worship and the consecutive musicians do as well, they are accepting the collective worship time and ministry of the others leading the people. We are NOT the world and we are supposed to do things differently. The whole purpose of a song of ministry leading a group is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ENTERTAINMENT, it’s supposed to be leading a group to glorifying and praising God. You are 100% correct that the church leaders/worship leaders/musicians HAVE dropped the ball and the people have followed blindly because the songs tickle our ears and our emotions and we eat it right up. We DO need to do due diligence and let the church begin to be refined and purified again.

Bill Johnson’s so good at saying nothing, or horrible things, and making them sound so profound. It’s so easy to take it at face value and not think too hard on what he said, because he’s the guy on the stage. I watched so many of his sermons and left feeling like it was so deep, but I really hadn’t paid attention to what he was really saying. I’ve become so much more cautious about everything I listen to and take in. I think it’s valuable to remember that our lives are a sacrifice to Christ, and we don’t live for ourselves. Just because a song is pleasing to our senses, doesn’t mean it’s pleasing to God, or it belongs in our minds to dwell on. The reason it’s hard to cut out some of this music is because it’s ultimately about us and what pleases our senses. Our walk with God and willingness to please Him has to be worth more than our desires to please ourselves. It is a form of sensuality if we really dig into it.

Great video, brother! I agree with your assessment. I have led plenty of Bethel songs in the past, but have really changed my mind on that and no longer find it wise to do so. Keep up the great work, man!

I think you are spot on! We have to be consistent with the Word. No compromise. Thank you!

I too came out of the Charismatic world a few years ago. I knew there was a controversy regarding Bethel, but I never looked into it. I didn’t want to be divisive and just stuck to worshiping with their music. April of ‘21 God stirred my heart to look into the Bethel Controversy and I never looked back. God completely changed me as I listened to endless hours of former students and Chris Roseborough and people who made truth SO CLEAR to me. I was ready for the truth and whatever sacrifices that might require because I just wanted clarity. I was not offended in the least by him. And I could tell the genuine love and knowledge from people like Justin Peters. After repenting from Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation worship, I became very uncomfortable in my church that started playing their songs. We were uncomfortable and perplexed for a year having to not participate in something we had repented of! We finally left that church and go to Calvinist ones that only sing hymns. We are SO BLESSED by that worship environment and have incorporated personal hymnal singing in our home with our kiddos. We are learning how to play the piano and sing WeeSing Bible Songs- such a treasure! Now I have my baby humming along the very singable music before he can even talk! And my littles worship spontaneously too. It’s in their heart. It doesn’t rely on a sound system. Now we’re perplexed by a previous church of ours, whose worship leaders play Bethel and even travel to participate in their ministry. It’s sticky. But I better develop a notebook of Biblical arguments or points of belief and accompanying Scriptures to help aid in conversing and confronting these issues. ❤

I play drums for the worship team at my church (I'm also the men's pastor). I've been trying to get my worship leader and senior pastor to understand why we need to stop playing this stuff, but I have had no luck. My pastor uses the exact phrase "As long as it's theologically sound, I'm good with it". I've been praying about this alot.

You are spot on. I used to think it was strange that my pastor checked on the music line up before church, but I get it, now. I'm so glad he makes sure it is sound theology! We sing hymns that are so theologically rich, and also contemporary, but never Hillsong, Elevation, Bethel Music, etc. Thank you for putting it out there, more churches need this information!

Thank you for your work on this! The church needs to take a theological stand. I often feel quite helpless at my church when I’m the only one who refuses to play songs like Reckless Love. I feel like such a downer criticising the theology of our worship songs. You’ve inspired me to persevere in love for God and His church!

I had to give it up a couple of years ago and, yes, it’s very difficult. I appreciate you sharing your Spotify playlist!

Thank you so much for making videos like this and posting your Spotify playlist! My husband and I left our charismatic church a year ago after being involved our whole lives. I lead worship at church, prophetic worship sessions the whole deal! It’s been nice to listen to someone who’s experienced similar things talk about all this! I’ve been really struggling with the musical part of me finding biblically solid worship to listen too! I am excited to check our your Spotify playlist.

We left the organized church over 20 years ago and had a short sojourn at a Messianic congregation for 5 years. After leaving, we got out of the loop, so to speak of cutting edge worship music. Our last experience was in the late 90s with the music from the Brownsville outpouring, the Toronto Blessing, the Smithton Revival to name a few. As one who leads the worship at our small fellowship, I do draw from many of those songs, but have had to strike them from our song lists due to some error in doctrine. I started writing music when we were in the Messianic congregation-I don't have the gift of lyrics, so most of songs come straight from Scripture-can't to wrong there. Lately, I have even started putting new melodies to some of the old tried and true hymns. These are the days that we really need to keep our spiritual radar up so that we do not become deceived. Thanks again for your thoughtful and insightful teaching! God bless!

There is a solution....... have a group of unaffiliated people write some theologically sound songs. Actually, there are a few alternatives. We're just addicted to the ease of using Bethel Music. It's a piece of cake to update the old Maranatha Music songs (aka The Praise Album series). I happen to know that Martin Luther's old rousers make GREAT metal songs. Bet several songs in those old hymnals can be updated to a current style. We used to sing Old Rugged Cross to acoustic only. Try it. Sing it slow, gentle, worshipful. Now segue into a quiet, gentle, rendition of the original Amazing Grace. There's also Kieth Green and Rich Mullins, who also pre-date Bethel. If anybody wants to disassociate themselves from Bethel Music completely, it's not as hard as you think. Truly epic praise and worship music has been around a lot longer than Bethel has. oop! Almost forgot....2nd Chapter of Acts! Great band! Definitely dated sound, but the songs wouldn't take much tweaking to make them current.

Thank you. I have gone back to old hymns. Singing melodies to the Lord, that is scriptural. Blessings 🇦🇺.

Glad you put this video out. Good job. Specially thankful you added the edits. I totally agree. Shane and Shane have done lots of Bethel & Co covers in the past, they’ve done the collaborations on their Worship Initiative, and this concert now is only the newest and most obvious thing.

Thank you very for sharing your life and experience with us ❤. Greetings from Poland 🇵🇱 ❤️

I enjoyed this conversation. Its a hard coversation , but we need to talk about it. Thanks😊

In the UK there is the CCLI licence which is a way for artists to get paid for live use of their copyrighted songs etc. Even if a song is scriptually 100% correct, the earnings goes direct to the ministry that supports that song. So if you do not like Bethels or Hillsongs teachings say but still play those songs then you are indirectly supporting that ministry.

I was listening to The Message on XM yesterday and everyother song was a Bethel music song. It made me so irritated and im almost ready to stop listening all together but i believe we should use discerment in listening to all worship music these days. God Bless you Jessie- glad your doing better.

Great video. You make a lot of really good points. I’m really glad you’re back (though I know this isn’t a new video.) I’m interested to hear that you’re a Mennonite. My father’s family was Mennonite, and in fact, his name was Menno.

Isaiah Saldivar catching another stray… 😅 Sorry I’ve just discovered your channel and going through your videos and found it funny 😆 Love what you’re doing btw! 🙌🏽 God bless.

From my own experience I do love hymns but that was all my Church as a child sang…Now I have grown a great heat appreciation for the Psalms and I highly recommend the Church implementing some in their routine/liturgy! The Church I am a member of implements this practice and it is part of what hooked me (along with their theology).

Grateful for this 🙏🏼

Amen brother, thanks for sharing this video - I am currently part of a PCA church that I’m truly very thankful for, and part of a reformed college ministry that I am also very thankful for, yet music continues to be a sore spot for me. Our church sings very reverently and respectfully by and large, which I appreciate, yet we still throw in a handful of songs that I wish we didn’t sing such as Goodness of God, Revelation Song, Cornerstone, Promises, and a couple other Hillsong songs in particular. The same is true, but on a slightly greater scale, with the ministry I work for. Again, I am very grateful for my church and my ministry, but I wish we didn’t sing these songs and support the charismatic/word-faith-light movements in the process. You have been gracious and charitable, yet firm, and I wholeheartedly agree that this is a conversation worth having and that we need a degree of reformation in the Christian music industry as a whole and in our churches! Keep striving after faithfulness and I am certain the Lord will bless your ministry in whatever way he sees fit.

Considering Bethel has mysticism in it, whoever wrote the song they have another spirit just that alone, we should not seeing their music in our churches. Also. If the music industry is making you do things and sing with artist who are totally off of the gospel, that’s a reason to stay away from the music industry is corrupt. Yes, why would you want to share the same stage with someone who is misleading thousands of people with their gnostic beliefs. They are dangerous to the true gospel of God. It’s about time. Christian stood up for the truth, and make a stand, even if it cost them thousands of dollars in record deals.

Great content. Thank you for sharing this. I am in a FB group for "80's CCM". I recently posted that in the 80's/90's I used to WISH that I'd go to church and they'd play a song I heard on the radio. Now, on the way to church I HOPE that they DON'T play songs that I've heard on the radio. lol I watched a YT video a year or so ago from a non-Christian that was talking about Christian music. He made a statement that I don't think I'll ever forget. He said, "If you listen to the current Spotify Top 20 Christian playlist it all sounds like Imagine Dragons and Americana music had a very bored baby"

I haven't watched this yet. Just dropping in to comment that you're looking a ton healthier now. Praise God.

Thank you for explaining some of the business side of the industry as it adds a little more perspective to include. It is a constant struggle when we are bombarded.

Thanks for the Spotify playlist!

TY for this excellent delivery of info that should def concern us.

Helps to know your background, Jesse. Thank you.

Thank you! This helped me so much!! I deleted all their music off my Spotify Playlist. Thank you for the list you provided for us! Keep up the good work! You're very brave to do this!!

This is a big battle at my church here in Germany. Being largely a post-Christian society (only 1% of people in my city of 240,000 go to a church of any kind), a lot of the reasonably solid believers are open to everything. They're big on how the music makes them feel. Full disclosure - I am the coordinator of the music ministry at my church, which is a volunteer position and I have no actual decision-making capability. If I say something about my concerns, I am typically accused of just being "overly critical" or (in the rare case where someone recognizes the problems at Bethel) it is "yeah, but this song is so good." I've at least gotten people to stop doing songs like "Reckless Love".

BILL JOHNSON. His God will only help/save people if they have enough faith. If you do not have enough faith, God can't help you.

Really love this. Love the editing direction and you are so easy to listen to. For me personally, I am just very big on the shepherd of the flock and how his 'leading' depicts the theology of his subsidiaries. i.e. Because of Bill Johnson / Kris Vallaton / Brain & Jen Johnson / Steffany Gretzinger and their VERY unbiblical teachings, I completely shy away from anything Bethel as far as applying it to my 'walk'. Which is a shame because, yes, many years ago.. I enjoyed songs like 'Starlight'. I just can't stomach Bill Johnson and how he leads the flock so far 'off the map'. Love you Jesse, you da man and such a blessing!

Main takeaways: 16:50 + 48:06 helping to promote and spread bad doctrine by buying B music and financing B; 33:00 + 51:52 pure toilet water is NOT drinkable because the source is bad! 45:00 the overall goal of B music (by Bill Johnson) is to BRING PEOPLE TO BETHEL! 49:00 what every pastor should do - decide 49:56 Todays church needs a complete worship music REFORMATION! 01:04:34 wrap up: figure out yourself how deep that rabbit hole goes. Its not just concert, its a whole business!

Thank you Jessie for this thoughtful and gracious presentation. It would be such a gift for the body of Christ to have you and Chris together for discussion. I loved the prophecy bingo you did on Fighting for the faith.

Thank you Jesse, that was really fantastic. I am the music leader in our small open Brethren church (Central Queensland, Australia) and cannot stomach singing Bethel songs or songs written in collaboration with them, and really try to steer clear of those. Its hard because they (the church) have sung some of their songs and are familiar with them (due to other elders and other leaders introducing them here and there over the years), and I don't have the freedom in that role to choose all the songs that are sung or introduced on any given Sunday (ie the service leaders and other leaders also have input). Such a hard thing to navigate. I love your grace and humility too by the way. So sad about Shane and Shane but like you said, they've been collaborating with Bethel for a while. Good bless you brother!!

I like your wife's analogy about 'fresh water' 😂😂😂

As a long time worship leader currently on sabbatical while I come to terms with this whole issue, this is my analogy… Even though some Mormon hymns would be theologically sound, would we lead them in a church service? Of course not.

Thank you, Jesse, good to hear from you again. I agree with your analysis and we should remember that a little leaven is all that's needed to ruin something. One thing to consider with songwriting meant to praise God is that sometimes He causes even His enemies to praise Him. Balaam taught God's people to sin grievously and he is called wicked by the Holy Spirit. Yet, Balaam, by the Holy Spirit, talks about his relationship with God and then gives one of the most beautiful prophesies about Christ in the OT: "The oracle of him who hears the words of God, and knows the knowledge of the Most High, who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered. "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, and a scepter shall rise from Israel, and shall crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth." (Numbers 24:16-17) Loving confrontation is needed and borders need to be established. I completely agree that a reformation is needed throughout (or better said maybe, a returning to our sure foundation) and we need to learn again how to worship Him well, for He is worthy.

I no longer listen to any contemporary music. Thanks so much for sharing

Like the toilet water reference. Really says it all!

I love your delivery . . truth spoken just like Jesus but without mincing words. thanks, this was super helpful, I am still charismatic but also felt convicted to give up their music a few years ago. At first it was a bummer, but honestly so cool to find all this other amazing music that I never knew was out there! LOL PS: I love your camera setting!

Keep at it bro. No matter what people say. Twas COVID shutdown that led me to Elevation Church that led me to eye opening about all the wrong theology and music to draw the younger gens, if you follow me. I'm an old Jesus Rocker and (Christian musician) now and deeply saddened for the lying spirit of this world invading our churches and music, misleading and deceiving so many, even in my own family. I struggle in my church about it, but I don't struggle in The Word. That is the Rock on which I stand. CCM and for our pastors, I pray for Restoration. Thank you for taking a stand.

Hi, I find it amazing that you can talk about worship songs for so long. What is worship? It’s not singing songs to make us all feel good inside. Abraham worship God when God told him to sacrifice his one and only son, there was no singing of songs at all. Worship is deeper than singing, it’s being obedient to God, taking up your cross. About Bethel music don’t you think it’s all getting much to close to how the world do the music business, I would say much to much money involved.

Tough subject...what clarifies it for me is this: the Mormons do put out some lovely music, some of which could be considered "sound", or at least "harmless". Is it okay for my church to use it in a worship setting?

Rise up songwriters 🙌

I appreciate your willingness to change your mind, even in the midst of a video, as well as your clarification about heresy vs blasphemy. So many on the internet are quick to glory in the failings of others and seem to consider their own views to be incontrovertible. It’s obvious to many how it’s wrong for the charismatics to claim their wishful thinking to somehow be prophecy (they think everything they do is “sanctified” because they have the “mind of Christ,” as you explained in the Winger video), but don’t many of the reactionary reformed types also do that as they revel in their own all-important theological stances that also happen to look a lot like a reflection of personal preferences that focus in the things they get right and conveniently never mention the places where they fall short? “The human heart’s default mode is self-justification.” I’m glad you’re modeling on the Internet how not to take part in that, even if some might call such an approach “wishy-washy.” For my part, it helps you seem unbiased and makes me more interested in listening to you as you try to sort out not if using Bethel music is permissible, but if it’s beneficial.

Appreciate your content, brother.

The best way to put it is they endure them. They bear them beautifully.

I see a huge divide in the church like the division in the Democratic Party & Republican Party. Beliefs are so different!! This nation is deteriorating!!!!

Hey Jesse, you should try listen to The Psalms Project. They do only songs from the book of Psalms and add a modern style to all 150 psalms. Enjoy bud!

5:45 I come from marketing. Get used to "turn over" on subs. 30% is actually high. The normal good marketing conversion rate is 3-5% so youre doing really good.

Ok. At first, I have to confess I thought that choosing not to listen to Bethel a little extreme. But at the end of your video when you said how Bethel Music started, "there were no song writers that wrote about the things they wanted like revival, miracles, supernatural stuff (sorry if I butchered your words there), so they started making their own"... now that changes my view on that! I know they believe the core beliefs...but there's something to be said about tailoring songs to exemplify only certain attributes of God. They do, in essence, teach and train believers to only seek and worship those attributes of God. Thank you so much for doing this video. It was very thought provoking and i love your heart behind it.

Love you, bud! Great video on a tough topic. 💪

20:16 regarding what we do with our money. 1 Cor 5:9-13 tells us there are different standards for fellowship with those who claim to be Christians and those who don’t.

I have been so blessed by a few spontaneous songs from Bethel. I don't think God hates them. I think He uses them and definitely wants to right some of their errors. I got a word of knowledge from someone at Bethel once, and it was spot on. I also saw goofiness, and I know the angel feathers and gemstones were planted. So there are bad characters and good characters there.

long ago larry norman asked "why should the devil have all the good music" today a differant yet similar question needs to be asked .....

Unfortunately, people don’t know the Bible and don’t do research on anything. They just take what’s popular or easy and don’t want to have the tough conversations. It is tough when they are so catchy. We must always be on guard and comparing everything theologically to the Bible. I know a number of churches that have decent teaching but are open to all the popular songs and also devotionals, it’s a slippery slope! And also, if you do songs by an artist, the risk is there that the congregation would go look up the song and think the artist is ok because the church sang it, when maybe yeah that one song was ok but now they’re on the wrong path with other songs. Tough conversation, but I appreciate this video! Yes!! Love Chris Rosebrough!!

Looking at that top 40 chart, aren’t all of those artists concerning, not just bethel? Bethel has collaborated with Chris Tomlin as well, right? And there are criticisms about all the other group’s affiliations or lyrics as well. Bethel’s influence is so disheartening to me. Praying too for a revival in worship. Thank you for this video. I grew up in Redding (moved away in 2004) and have always been concerned about the practices and theology coming forth from there and my friends who have been involved.

Hey, great to have you back up and running. I had to stop it at the beginning to ask the question, "why not call it heresy?" If they promote a false gospel, isn't that heretical. I understand there are many other differences on some secondary issues as well, for which we would be hesitant to use the word. But in regards to getting the gospel right, why the reluctance. Anyways, thanks for the god work. Looking forward to the rest of the listen now!

On the Hymns of Grace RU-vid channel you not only have beautiful hymns but you can purchase the hymn book and the loose leaf sheet music version of the hymns.

I stopped attending a local charismatic church because they are more and more ‘accepting’ of Bethel. I noticed that two young women who started attending there almost immediately started singing with the worship team, which made me wonder who they were and where they had come from? That led to me learning that they were from Bethel and had either graduated from or were still attending BSSM. 😳 This, on top of questionable theology (not that I am all studied up) being taught. I was hungry for solid exegetical teaching and not topical so I started attending a different church that is pretty much reformed, and I love love love it! The worship leader leads and teaches songs that I never heard of before 😂 but they are GOOD! The Bible teaching is so deep and thorough! It’s MEAT. (Which is also sometimes hard to dig into!) I feel like I’m JUST getting to know and become a true believer in these last few years… like, I thought I was before? Why is it all unfolding and my love and knowledge of and for God is massively different?!! After maybe 40 years of trying to follow God and being in church, years on a worship team (long ago) , it’s like I’m just ‘getting it’!!! I keep thanking God!

Another thing is that music has become an idol in our culture (and entertainment in general) and these musicians are capitalizing on society’s idols. It reminds me of the dudes in Acts who were making the literal idols to Artemis and were upset with Paul because the spreading of The Way was going to disrupt their business.

Safer to stick with the old ones of those who are passed on

Amen!

No. I dont put money where i xannot support the end means. If that narrows the field of giving, so be it. Relying more on jesus without compromise is worthy

Jeremy Riddle was my favorite worship leader from Bethel. I see that he is no longer a part of Bethel and has made some comments that show he thinks the signs and wonders thing has become a distraction. Do you know much about that? Do you know if his music would be from the Bethel type theology? I always felt like his songs were more direct praises to God and less about us.

That’s one thing I agree with you on but wonder about if you avoid all bethel-related or even hillsongs who can we sing other than old hymns and even those may be written by people we disagree with theologically

Wow, this is heavy. Someone told me something about the industry in those very popular large churches that they just hire secular musicians to play worship. What is your thoughts on that? I think the the worship group should be believers.

Well, I don't know how many of you are worship leaders that have access to songselect but here's something to copy and paste into the search bar that for the most part excludes songs from Bethel, Hillsong, Maverick City, Lauren Daigle, Elevation Worship, and Jesus Culture. For the most part I just looked up current and past members and grabbed their names. When you put a minus (-) and the Name of the artist it will exclude but if the name is too common (like Lake or Johnson) then you probably want to use the first and last name and wrap it in quotes (see below) to get the whole string. No, I don't do this every time and not every artist in this list do I think should be excluded but this is just an example of how to do it. -"Brian Johnson" -"Jenn Johnson" -"Bethany Wohrle" -"Hannah Harold" -"Emmy Rose" -"John Wilds" -"Josh Baldwin" -"Kristene DiMarco" -"Melissa Helser" -"Jonathan David Helser" -McClure -"David Funk" -"Zahriya Zachary" -Riddle -Asbury -"Brandon Lake" -Daigle -Furtick -"Chris Brown" -"Jonsal Barrientes" -"Jenna Barrientes" -"Tiffany Hudson" -"Davide Mutendji" -"Isaiah Templeton" -"Mack Brock" -"London Gatch" -"Matthews Ntlele" -Pinkham -"Jane Williams" -"Darlene Zschech" -"Geoff Bullock" -"Brooke Fraser" -"Joel Houston" -"Reuben Morgan" -"Annie Garratt" -"Tarryn Stokes" -"Ben Fielding" -"Taya Smith" -"Derek Johnson" -"Chris McClarney" -"Chris Quilala" -Torwalt -"Kim Walker-Smith" -"Kristene DiMarco" -"Justin Jarvis" -"Melissa How" -"Nichole Nordeman" -Ligertwood -Bowe

Hey, curious to know if you have heard of the Elijah List? It was something my parents have talked about. Also, did Bethel ever associate with IHOP and/or what are your thoughts on IHOP? I grew up with a whole bunch of false theology and thankfully about five years ago my eyes were opened when I watched the first American Gospel movie. At first I was SO offended by it, but the Holy Spirit and my husband encouraging me to listen to it led me to the truth. But it has taken me a long time to completely rebuild my understanding of God’s Word. It’s hard to have to reevaluate everything you thought was true. Growing up I remember going to a conference when I was pretty young with my mom where she got what my sisters and I called “the laughing thing.” She was “drunk” in the spirit and could not stop laughing uncontrollably. We had Basil Howard Brown (Rodney’s brother) visit our church the one time and “slay people in the spirit” by shouting “fire!” My sister fell down at this but I did not and I constantly thought that something was wrong with me. Afterwards my sister admitted that she only fell because he had PUSHED HER down. At the one conference my mom brought us to with Missionaries from Russia, I was told that I had a demon in me. We did “soaking time” as a whole family where we listened to worship music while trying to get visions and “words from God” (apparently the Bible isn’t enough). In Middle School I remember starting to “speak in tongues” by coming up with random words in my head that sounded similar to my parent’s tongues. I thought I was being genuine. After graduating I was still involved in their church and in their young adults group we would have prayer time with “prophesying” and “visions” over the person or thing we were praying for. My parents are still subscribed to all of the “prophesying” people out there predicting the next revival, the next president, etc. Of course they are usually wrong, but always have an explanation why. These are just a few of many, many unbiblical things I was a part of before realizing that none of this lined up with the Word of God. I came to the same realization that you did: that this is a works-based theology. It is implied that you have to preform and “prove” that you have these “Holy Spirit gifts” in order to be a real Christian, but behind closed doors things weren’t as pretty. I’ve also found that these churches and people that believe these things have no conviction about a lot of sinful things in their lives. The church that my parents go to attracts previous addicts and I have watched a ton of people fall away from God there because it’s a temporary “high” of emotionalism and then there is not actual meat of God’s Word, so they move on to the next thing. I have seen and continue to see the damage of this false theology. If proof of salvation was based on having spiritual experiences, then how do you explain that people from other religions and even with NO religion have spiritual experiences as well? It doesn’t make any sense. I live in rural Northern Wisconsin and these teachings and speakers have been prevalent my entire life, so it makes me wonder how much more widespread and prevalent these false teachings are than people realize. The only person in my family that is willing to even listen to what I have to say about the Bible is one of my younger brothers. I am praying that my whole family wakes up from all of this so they are actually able to serve God and bear fruit rather than serving whatever “feels good” and “sounds good.” Thank you so much for making this channel and bringing to light what is going on. I appreciate your honestly, boldness, and love for God and His Word!

Thank you for your insight on this. Many concerns about Bethel, but my main concern is the source of their music. If they delve into the New Age and Mysticism as their own books state, then the source of the worship is questionable imo. Does the source of the worship songs ( as in the songs possibly inspired by other spirits rather than the Holy Spirit) concern you?

So needed to talk about this! Phil wickham just makes me sad 😢 Interesting discussion about heresy versus blasphemy 🤔

I've been attending my present church for a few months now. I've noticed that the majority of the songs we sing are Bethel and Hillsong. Currently, our pastor is also our worship leader. A couple of months ago, I began to notice that some of his sermons contain obvious bad theology. It's sad. There are many people there that I dearly love😪 But, I feel like I have no choice but to leave.

I appreciate your careful handling of this topic. I am curious as to how you made the jump to being anabaptist.

Obviously doctrinal faithfulness is the ultimate objective….but it also saves churches money to dump those Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation and North Point songs. The old hymns are public domain so there are no CCLI royalty fees as there are for the publishers I mentioned. It also allows us to contribute to our churches with a clearer conscience.

For me music is becoming less and less important but more more valuable. Music Belongs to the Lord let us beware of what we do with it

I almost have to wonder if Shane and Shane is using the same platform/ promoting the songs of Cory Asbury, the Johnsons, and others to bring people in those camps to a more Biblically sound place. Imagine it, that tour they are doing may be the one chance they have to bring hymns, rewrites of Psalms, and other fun, theologically sound projects they have put together into a highly charismatic environment. Same with having Bethel songs on the Worship Initiative site, it's possible they're potentially bringing hyper charismatics to other Christian circles outside of error. If they start talking about how much they love the Johnsons and their theology, that would be a different story... Like it was said here, they're business partners in the same industry. Most likely, anyone reading this is working in an occupation where they might be the only Christian there. Does that mean you never speak with your fellow employees? No, but you use the platform God has given you to be a witness to those around you. Just some of my more "optomistic" thoughts on what could possibly be going on here.

Im glad youre not pursuing a path of guilt by association.

Reformed theology also turns into a mess when you really start working through the implications of interpreting sovereignty as divine determinism.

The church needs an alternative to CCLI... There needs to be a reformation that releases new songs to public domain after initial payment. The artist name then should be stripped from the association of the song. The credit for those songs should be ultimately going to God.There needs to be a basic belief standard that these artist need to be held to to receive 1 time payment. The CCLI model is holding the modern day church hostage to either play footsies with the devil or fall behind the times in modern worship... Its so sad. As a worship guitarist I am arguing with my self as to why I even participate in this stuff... Breaking my heart.

Thank you for this. I was a part of a church in the Sacramento/Roseville area that has partnered with Bethel/Jesus Culture for almost two decades now. Recently I've moved to a different state, but my new church sings a majority from these concerning sources. How do I broach the topic with my church leadership about it? I do not want to complain or attack, but I feel very passionate about the theology of worship as I do about the sermon preached. I'm also nervous that I might have to take my family to a new church if they aren't willing to listen, since I feel so strongly about it.

Exactly! Poor worship vetting.

Hymns of Grace channel on RU-vid is excellent!

Do you have any recommendations on who to listen to / what resources would help when leaving Bethel and the NAR movement ? Recently left and feeling lost, especially when it comes to looking for a new church

Charles Haddon Spurgeon-Ecclesiastical Separation--deadly errors with which we can have no fellowship."For Christians to be linked in association with ministers who do not preach the gospel of Christ is to incur moral guilt.Fellowship with known and vital error is participation in sin

@thewestwoodhome what do you think about new music put forth from Jeremy Riddle and Amanda Cook who are no longer creating music under Bethel? An interview came out from The Christian Post in 2019 revealing some odd theological ideas in her answers. I assume if we listen to their non-bethel produced music the money at least isn’t going to Bethel for those songs, but their theological positions are still something to be mindful of when choosing to listen to them.

There’s a reason I’ve found myself in a church that only plays hymns. My thoughts on music have been radically changed since coming out of this movement, and I don’t really listen to much. I wanted to know that roots of what I had believed, and the more I dug, the worse it got. I spent a lot of time trying to categorize what was going on with this belief system. I’ve come to the conclusion that even though they have the correct method of salvation (though it’s rarely discussed) they have a false Jesus. When the Bible speaks about another Jesus, this is the category they fall into. They’ve opened the door to witchcraft and new age practices, but whitewashed it with Christian language. I don’t want to go overboard. I know most things can be traced to something off, but when it’s related to my core beliefs and method of worship, it has to matter. God designated how to worship Him, and doing so with a false understanding of who He is, and what He will and won’t do, I can’t bring myself to do that.

Greetings Jessie thank you for taking the time and effort to do this. Do you think that for lack of a better term I have real pet peeve about. The first is just using the term worship leader. I can't even leave myself to the Lord with my effort it is the Holy Spirit that leads me to the Lord. The second is using terms like her church is church my church there church this church that church. Forgive me for saying this so blunt but it makes me sick everytime I hear it. Is it not the Lord's church that we attend? With these two things said I agree wholeheartedly that those who are involved in the service of song congregational worship must be aware of these things. I've seen it coming since the 80s when all the preacher started saying just wait till we have a radio station will take over the power the air.

I like "Editor Jesse". He's got some good ideas.

Have you ever been apart of Generation Unleashed in Portland Oregon?

I like the parts where you go back and forth with yourself. Black and White Jesse spends more time considering things. HA HA!

On a side note, there’s a Westwood Drive in my town and it makes think of your channel when I see the signs for it. Lol. I attend a mega church in town. Almost all the songs they use are from bethel and I am really hindered in worship knowing that. I am a member there because I felt lead to go there. Recently I am questioning that decision. Being such a large church I don’t think me bringing up how bethel is really messed up is going to change anything. I am not sure what to do. I’m considering leaving the church but I’m torn. Their theology seems pretty sound but the worship music is a big oof.

Bethel is not heretical but blasphemous? That's like saying they are bad but not evil...🤦‍♂️ Furthermore... they do NOT teach or believe in the core doctrines because they claim Christ was not God, only a man in right relationship to God - that's heresy. If you're worshipping a wrong Christ (Paul said "another Jesus") then you're not believing in the core doctrines and if you get Christ wrong you get everything else that follows wrong.