Blog post: bit.ly/sim-com-dam My second video for Deaf Awareness Month, I talk about what exactly simultaneous communication (or sim-com) is, and why it's a terrible, terrible idea. FIRST VIDEO: • Deaf Awareness Month |...
I am fluently bilingual in two oral languages, Icelandic and English. While I technically learned Icelandic first, I was only 3 when I moved to the States and learned English & I don't even remember learning it so I consider both of them to be my "first language" because they feel equally natural to me. I'm quite good at switching quickly between languages because I have been doing it my whole life, but I still can't do both at once - for example, if I am speaking Icelandic and writing English or vice versa, I am switching between the two, not actually doing both at the same time. But if I do get distracted and attempt to do both at completely the same time, I will start combining words into strange Icelandic-English hybrids and writing English according to the Icelandic spelling system/vice versa, because it isn't possible to do both completely simultaneously. It only makes sense for the same to apply to signed & oral languages instead of oral & written ones.
Indeed! I consider both ASL and English to be my first languages, even though I didn't really learn ASL until later (around fourth grade). I suppose it'd be more accurate to say primary languages rather than first.
This video was extremely helpful for me. I am currently an ASL major and I am taking a Deaf Culture class this semester in addition to my ASL 3 class. This was a topic recently and you explained it much better than the textbook did. I am a visual learner so maybe that's why reading it wasn't clicking for me. I love your videos!
Really interesting video! On the What the Deaf podcast, they talked about how, in practice, sim-com can lead to using English structure so it’s another example of privileging/prioritizing hearing people over Deaf people. So it’s an example of why even between friends, sim-com can be a problem. I understand why people do it, but it’s interesting that people seem much more willing to be seen using improper ASL rather than be heard using improper English.
I would guess that, unfortunately, it’s because ASL has long been looked down on, and not considered a real language. To this day, there are people who still think ASL is just gestures, or the signed equivalent of English which is so far from the truth.
@@RoganShannon13 thank you for replying! I LOVE your videos! I learn so much. Yeah it definitely complicates hearing people’s understanding of ASL because much of what is called ASL is actually not ASL but closer to signed English.
I see that many people have the same experiences with being bilingual like me! I am the only Spanish-speaking employees at one of my jobs so when I take care of a Spanish-speaking customer, I still have to write the order in English for my coworkers to understand. Thankfully, many things are abbreviated to I just have to translate in my head and write the abbreviation down but when I have to translate a complete set of sentences, it takes me a while to rearrange the grammar, find words in both languages that I've forgotten in the back of my mind, and find ways to describe something that doesn't have a word in either language, which can be frustrating and time consuming for both me and the listener. Just like you said, in a formal situation, I wouldn't speak "Spanglish" because it makes things more difficult to explain and understand. I'd love to learn ASL or SEE soon to help those who are hard of hearing feel comfortable at my jobs though! Thank you for your videos!
I stumbled across this video recently and found the topic quite interesting because I've heard so many conflicting arguments and perspectives on it. This is the first video I actually agree with! Personally I have only been signing for about 8 years but I find it very difficult to sign and speak at the same time like when I'm around my Deaf & hearing friends at the same time (I want to make sure everyone is a part of the discussion). At the end of this video you had mentioned how if you're trying to use sim-com you will revert back to your first language (English), sometimes without conscious knowledge. The funny thing is for me English is my first language, but when I try to sign & speak at the same time I usually forget to speak and I only sign even though ASL Is my second language. I just found that interesting and this video very informational. Thank you for posting! :)
Awesome! I understand that, it's tough when it's a mixed group. That's interesting! I have noticed that for some people, it's because they feel more, or very, comfortable using ASL so they drop the English not ASL. I don't know if that's the case for you, but I know it is for some people.
@@RoganShannon13 thank you so much for choosing to share on this topic! Anecdotally, although English is my primary language,I find myself using ASL without thought for the English speaking group not knowing ASL, yet knowing it's such a pictorial and expressive language, I'm sometimes even better understood, especially depth of emotion through ASL. 💛
I'm bilingual and when learning a new language, they say it's important to develop the ability to think in the language. Of course, this takes time, after learning vocabulary, grammar and syntax. At school, I can recall French teachers discouraging Google translate (on a body of text). You're not using French if you write in English and put it through a translator. (Which were less accurate back in the day)
I’m really trying to work on my ASL fluency, so usually I only speak around my family. When I’m out in public I turn off my voice and only use sign (or write in English). So far it’s really helped me improve.
Thank you so much for this video! I've watched a number of different videos about sim-com, and it always made sense to me why it wouldn't work well, but this was the first time I'd seen the problems articulated in linguistic terms. I *loved* the comparison to the myth of multi-tasking! It makes so much sense! I haven't watched very many of your videos yet (as I only discovered your channel a few days ago), but I would be very interested to learn more about the syntax and structure of ASL. You mention it very briefly near the end of this video, but it just left me wanting more. I'm just starting to learn ASL, so all I'm learning thus far is vocabulary words-basically just translating a simple concept from English to ASL-nothing about the language as a whole and how it works. I watched one video, for example, where a Deaf man explained that in ASL the verb forms work differently, so he wouldn't sign, "I am going to the store," that the "ing" in "going" just isn't really how ASL works. I also have another question, which maybe doesn't relate to this video but does relate to talking/signing. I struggle sometimes, when telling someone about sign language, to avoid using the words "say," "hear," "listen," and such ... words that seem to imply spoken speech. And yet I feel that you are saying things in this video, and I am listening to them, and I am hearing you. I think of these words as terms relating to *communication*, rather than *sound*, but I worry whether those terms might be offensive to the Deaf community. Especially the word "hear." Is it offensive to say that I want to hear what you think about this issue?
Yay! I'm not very knowledgeable in ASL linguistics, most of what I talk about on here is what I know for sure, or if I'm just guessing, I will say so. I do want to delve more in that, so when I do, I will eventually make videos about it. Right, a lot of grammatical rules in English work very differently in ASL! Don't worry about that too much! I personally like trying to change my language to match MY perspective, but I certainly don't expect people to be accurate when it comes to hear/listen/speak. In written language, I do sometimes change the words I use, but in sign it's a little different. It's a bit hard to explain but if you were translating my sign to English, I'd still be using hear/listen/etc. but the way I sign it is a bit different. For example, "I listened to them tell me their story." I'd sign listen with the thumb under my eye, rather than on my ear. This is a thing that a lot of deaf people do, changing the position of the sign from the ear to under the eye. Does that make sense?
Rogan Shannon Wow! Signing "listen" under your eye rather than your ear! That is so clever! (I wish there was some way I could do that when I'm talking about it!) I'm looking forward to learning more about how small changes like that can affect meaning in sign language. As you mentioned in this video, sign is a completely different modality, and not one I yet understand very well ... so just changing the location of where you sign something hadn't occurred to me. I'm an artist and writer and enjoy finding creative ways to communicate things through visual media and words, so I'm very excited to learn how creativity is (and can be) employed in sign. Also, sorry if I'm spamming comments on your videos. I'm not a stalker. As I said, I just discovered your channel a couple days ago and am finding many of your conversational topics very interesting.
Yep, I like it when I catch myself signing something that's audio-centric, and figuring out how to sign it differently. I also enjoy visual puns, playing with signs, etc. One of my favorites is the word understand. It's hard to explain, but it's basically the sign for "stand" signed upside down. So it's "standing under," ha ha. :P I don't mind the spamming! I like it when people remind me of a video I made :P
I am learning (trying very hard to learn) ASL via videos online. The thought of using sign right now makes me nervous. I can understand simple things like asking someone's name or asking if they have an ID (handy for my job). However, I have a question: If a hearing person uses what little sign they know, would the effort be appreciated or would they be laughed at because they sign poorly?? That might seem like a silly question but it's a real fear of mine and it's keeping me from feeling comfortable with signing. I like what you said to Mr Simon in the comments about not putting down people for choosing to express themselves with SEE or PSE. Also, I like your videos because you mouth much of what you sign. It is helpful for me and I have learned from watching your videos, so thank you!
That fear is totally understandable! More often than not, it will be appreciated. So few hearing people actually make an effort to learn sign despite saying oh I wish I knew sign! So when we meet someone who can actually sign a bit and not like just the basic standard signs. I'm glad to know that's a help to you!
Paige Law Since it's a very informal environment, it should be fine, and actually would be helpful. Because in that situation, we can both read your signs and your lips, using all we can to best understand you!
I hate using sim-com. It's so difficult, and I feel like both languages end up taking some degradation. Particularly when I need to use classifiers or the way I would express the thought is completely different in English than in sign, so I can't really even use PSE to get by. I've only been signing for two years, though, so maybe it gets easier. The only time I use sim-com is when I'm involved in a group discussion with deaf and hearing friends. A lot of my hearing friends often want me to voice while I'm talking to my deaf friend in front of them--I guess because they're used to just being able to drop into conversations or listen to conversations around them, but I don't usually do that. I don't want my communication with my deaf friend to suffer, and I'm also trying to encourage my hearing friends to start learning some sign for themselves--which some of them are! Anyways, interesting video. I just discovered your channel, so I've been watching a lot of random older videos.
I joined an "ASL" practice session online as an interpreting student looking to get better at my ASL skills a few months ago. and immediately the group commands me to use my voice while signing. when i asked why? the group "teacher" gave me attitude and said it was to accommodate all the hearing people learning ASL.... ?????? WHAT??? I said that was not ASL, she was teaching them SEE. and i left. still boils my blood
As an interpreter for Spanish, especially in a court setting, Simultaneous Interpretation is EXPECTED. I would really LOVE if other people understand that it's better communication if only one language is used at a time, as in Consecutive Interpreting. Also, in small groups, I've found that bothhearing and Deaf cultures DEMAND that they be included in the conversation, so if one (a person) is speaking, the Deaf are being excluded, and if one (a person) is signing, the hearing are excluded. How can this situation be resolved? My suggestion is to teach ASL automatically as part of our cultural curricula right from birth. Maybe I'm in the minority of people who believe the same way. This is why we NEED to convince more hearing folks that ASL is fundamental to INCLUSION, just like MVSL.
yeah, MVSL is a great example. ASL is also used in places with different spoken languages so it would be so sick if people used ASL like PISL (plains indian sign language) was once used - by hearing people too, across spoken languages.
What is interesting to me, though, if that Rogan seems to be mouthing all of the English words, using proper English syntax, while signing everything in ASL. He isn’t voicing - but isn’t the mouthed production of the English and simultaneous ASL to be considered sim-com?
This was super interesting to me! I find sim-com super tough, exactly because it is that combination of modalities. That said, I do tend to sign more "English" or PSE. I'm just starting to get more comfortable with that and not feeling like I'm a "Deaf fail" through watching videos of other HH and mainstreamed folks who sign and discuss the different perspectives. I really appreciate that you're inclusive when you discuss modes of expression. I find that it IS helpful for me to have interpretation that's more PSE during, say, a lecture, because the two "match up" better than spoken English + ASL, and I can "fill in" what would normally be blanks from me with lipreading + the hearing that I do have. In that way, it feels to me that signing more English is kind of a third modality of the English language, though that doesn't necessarily mean I like actual sim-com. I was thinking about this the other day, because I know it can be controversial, but my feeling is that English is my first language, and so signing (or receiving sign) in English is the most comfortable for me, because it's a way I can use English but in a way that's accessible to me. That doesn't mean that my respect for the Deaf community and ASL is any less, though! I just don't have the spoons to be super involved in Deaf community and become fluent in ASL, given my other disabilities. I'm starting to feel okay about that.
I really love your educational videos , my family is learning ASL , mainly because our little girl is deaf. But we are having trouble understanding the syntax and grammatical structure, coming from Germany I totally understand that asl and English are two separate languages but I need a video explaining in detail with examples so I can get more proficient and confident. And so we can use proper ASL at home this fill the environment for our girl with both languages. Thank you 😊
Hi Rogan! I’m still learning ASL. I understand a lot, and I can sign a good enough amount to be able to communicate a little bit with people who are Deaf. I agree with you, that it is confusing when someone signs and talks at the same time. My brain gets confused because I’m trying to understand both modes of communication at the same time.
Rogan, thank you for this. I’m learning ASL and find it hard to talk and sign at the same. I find myself in groups where there are some people who are hearing and some who are deaf, which is why I’ve tried to do both...but it really has been impossible. So I’ll stop talking!
I know you said multitasking isn’t real and science and all… but I know I’ve definitely breastfed a baby AND done a bunch of other stuff at the same time. So, are you against total communication and a bilingual approach for deaf and hoh children? Or it just needs to be spoken by the teacher and signed by the translator?
Breastfeeding and multitasking is not the same as attempting to speak two languages simultaneously. You wouldn’t speak Spanish and English at the same time because it’s physically not possible. It may seem like that with sign, but just because it uses the hands doesn’t mean it’s possible to sign fluent ASL and speak fluent English at the same time. I’m against doing this, but I absolutely advocate for having both options available via an interpreter. I personally think a bilingual approach with deaf children needs to prioritize sign being done by the teacher because that’s more direct and clear access to information.
I’m sorry if this is a dumb question but I’ve seen some Deaf mouth words when they’re signing and I’ve seen some others who don’t and some who only do it sometimes, is there a partisan reason as to why that is ？
I’m an ASL student and I’ve seen that simcom is usually English grammar with ASL signs. So PSE or kind of SEE. Definitely not ASL. I think it can be acceptable for when you’re trying to teach specific words or encouraging any kind of sign acquisition, but it’s not good for actually learning the language.
My son can hear but isn't speaking. I have been using some signs with him while speaking. I want him to hear the words so he can continue to improve receptive language but I also want to help him to find a way to communicate with us using sign until he finds his voice as he has been picking up signs reasonably well. Would this offend a deaf person if they saw someone speaking to their kid while signing
Thanks for this video! You answered a few questions I had. I'm HOH, and I recently decided to start learning ASL because I'm losing more hearing and because it's just too tiring to try to read lips ALL THE TIME! i tried to sign and speak a few times with my toddler, but it's just too hard, the grammar is soo different, one time I said one word and sign another word giving sort of the same idea, but I agree it's not ideal. And if we add to the mixture that my first language is Spanish you can imagine my confusion! I'm trying to sign more with my daughter but she keeps asking me why I'm speaking with my quiet voice? Anyway, do you have any resources of how to deal with that? Thanks and I loved your video!
I'm glad this video helped you some! Knowing multiple languages is awesome, but it can be confusing sometimes, I can relate! Ooh, I have no idea if there are any resources about that. But your daughter is still young, she'll get used to it eventually. I think the best way is just talk with her, and explain that it's hard for you to understand her if she doesn't use her quiet voice, or something along those lines.
Hey Rogan! I have a question, a couple actually... first, I notice you mouth the words as u sign and am wondering is that what sim com is and do u do it to help teach or is that how u communicate in general? Also, I notice you sign like I speak and it’s not grammatically different, are you using “see” to teach us? Thanks for all you do! I love it
No, mouthing as I sign is not simcom. Actually making sound and talking while signing is simcom. I do mouth many words, but I don't mouth every single sign. A lot of signers will mouth while they sign, but it's not always the same, and often it won't be every word. I tend to sign with a more English slant, but I am using only ASL signs. I tend toward English more because for the first few years of my life, I was taught SEE and had a heavy emphasis on English (spoken and written). And how "English" I am in my signing really depends a lot on the situation. I will sign more ASL with certain people, and more English with certain people. When I'm by myself, like I am for these videos, I go more English, just because that's how I grew up.
I would much prefer not to sim-com, but whenever I hang out with a certain Deaf friend I have I am usually also with a group of friends who don't study ASL quite as often and when I forget and stop talking while I sign they remind me to sim-com so they can follow what I'm saying. I totally get it but also I feel like my already shaky grasp on ASL gets SO much worse haha. And I can't exactly tell my friends to just study ASL more often because we infrequently hang out with this Deaf friend and I don't know if maybe my group of friends are the type of people that aren't as good at picking up other languages, so I can't pressure them in more than a light-hearted manner. For me, ASL is something that I was interested in before we met our Deaf friend so of course I continue my studies regardless of how often we see him, but for them it's different - they do it mainly for him
So to be an ASL Interpreter then you don't need to know how to be sim-com? It seems very hard, almost impossible and as you said many people do not like it. So it's not needed to be an ASL Interpreter? Can you still be a great interpreter without being able to sim-com?
Absolutely not! When you're interpreting, you should NOT be attempting to use two languages at once. Sim-com is used only in very casual situations, and only if people involved are comfortable with it.
This may feel mean, and you are welcome to correct me, but you have created a video decrying the evils of simcom, while simcoming 90% of the time during the video. Just because you don't put air behind your lips and tongue movement, it is still quite obvious you are mostly thinking in english speech and your sign language is paced to fit this breathless speech. I think you have said elsewhere that you are no ASL grammar model, and that's fine, but I still find it very ironic. I think you should just go ahead and speak, if you are going to work that hard to mouth 90% of everything.
That's very fair! However, I will say this - I am signing in a VERY English order in this video, which is why I'm able to move my mouth fairly closely to what I'm signing in this. I choose to not use my voice, because it is _work_ for me. I took years of speech therapy, and I know my speech isn't always clear enough to be understood. I can mimic the lip movements of English well without thinking too much about it, but not the actual vocal sounds. With vocal sounds, I have to use more brain power because I'm actively thinking about how to vocalize things. It's not effortless like native English speakers. Also, this video is six years old, my signing is different now haha.
I'm not? There isn't one way to sign ASL, the same as there isn't one way to speak English, the same as there isn't only one way to properly express any language.
I am hearing and i know ASL is a separate language than English. But i was told that signing SEE or PSE is not ASL and that its wrong. Those were my teacher's words not mine.
Yes, SEE or PSE are not ASL. Where did I say that it was? And I wouldn't say it's wrong. It's completely a personal choice of what the person wants to sign and feels comfortable with. That kind of thinking is very close-minded, and it's not okay to put anyone down for their choice of method for expressing themselves. That's your teacher's opinion, and that's fine, free expression and all. But I don't think that attitude is okay, and that only makes people feel excluded from the Deaf community, which is not acceptable to me.
Honestly, this "rule" seems excessively draconian. I understand the argument, and I get that many deaf people consider sim-com to be disrespectful, but the purpose of language is communication, not following rules. There will always be grammar nazis and people who say "you can't do it that way!" The French Academy tells French speakers they "can't" use English terms, but people do it anyway. So the French language evolves and the members of the French Academy lose touch with the reality of the French language. I understand the arguments listed here, but if I could figure out how to speak a pidgin Chinese/English mashup that both groups would understand, I would do it!
It's not just disrespectful, it's depriving us of access to what you're saying. If you can hear, you can at least understand a pidgin of English and Chinese. Pidgin is also not sim-com. Deaf people *don't always* have access to the auditory portion, so we're getting only what you sign and _maybe_ some of what you're vocalizing from lipreading. That's not full communication. And I did say that in informal settings, if people are fine with it, you can sim-com. I'm just saying that sim-com should never be used in settings like teaching, professional presentations, and the such. That's what interpreters are for.
