Justine Leconte officiel I also have size 8 or 36. Depends on brands n countries ,you are right Justine . I personally all the time look at european size chart and then on the french one and as a last resort I check the Italian size chart if the other one are not on the tag . And most of the part I just look which one matching me better . It does not matter size Xs , S , M , L etc. Also I'm short so the tailor helpes me alot especially with trousers 😉But it is annoying how there is this need to clasify bodies and bring new measurements and twist people's mind and need to achieve a certain size.
I try on a few different sizes on when shopping in the store I never shopped in before but sometimes also in the ones I shopped in before to find out what fits best and use measuring tape for online shopping :D. Btw I'm Amy Schumer's height and I weigh less than 73 kilograms and am around the size 12, I'd say she could even be size 14 or up but I'm probably basing it on the sizing in Europe instead of in America.
in the UK I find lately that sizes can be inconsistent within the same store as well as from store to store. I hate changing rooms so spend a lot of time taking stuff back.
Thank you! I'm 4'11" and have a hell of a time finding pants I don't have to get hemmed (I look for "cropped" pants, which on me are usually just the right length). I think that it might be harder to size women that way because we have curves, unlike men, so that might affect the length...
Preach. I had to buy menswear for a play I was in, and the fact that every item had its measurements for S/M/L on the tags annoyed me so much. Why aren't we doing this for womenswear?
Karen K shop at American eagle for jeans, they recently stared having “short short” length. I’m just under 4’10” and I don’t have to hem them! Honestly not sure why no one talks about American eagle, they offer jeans in 6 lengths for women.
A conversation I had while shopping with my boyfriend: Him: Hey what jean size are you? Me: I literally have no idea. Him: Well what size are you wearing now? Me: It literally doesn't matter, its not the same anywhere. Him: Well wtf, how do you buy anything? Me: I literally have no idea.
@@jljljl1820 ikr. The jeans I buy are stretchy fabric and are a 10 (though I'll probably size up to a 12) but in h&m I'm a 16 or higher (UK plus size borderline). I have an awkward hourglass body type (hips, shoulders and bust are two sizes larger than my waist - I also have a short body to my waist and am talk below my waist)
This is why a woman should never be mocked for having to try on 10 different pairs of jeans in the same line to find one that fits. It's a wild, wild world out here in "we gave up on consistency" land.
I'm from Europe and at one point in my life, my wardrobe included clothes anywhere from XS to XXL and they all fit me. *All of them.* So, I guess I was super skinny and overweight at the same time 😂
If you really want to be confused, order something on Amazon made in China. I'm usually an 18/20 depending on who made it and I would have needed a 5XL in the Chinese jacket!
@@Zaurkax14 or maybe, just maybe, women's bodies are not all magically the same proportions, and a person can have large shoulders and bust with slim hips or small shoulders and bust and wider hips, or large shoulders and small bust, or small shoulders and large bust, etc, etc For example, I have small shoulders and bust, and larger hips. If I buy 50s style dress witha full skirt, I am buying it to fit three of my smaller measurements- waist, bust, shoulders. I will wear a size 2-4 US. But if I wear something with a more fitted skirt, I will need to jump all the way up to a size 8. Similarly, if I wear a loose fitting blouse, I will need to size down to an XS or even XXS or it will fall off my shoulders. If I wear a tailored button down shirt, I will be buying it to fit my waist and bust and wear a S or M. If it is a fitted tunic that comes down over my hips, I might need a large.
A lot of people want to say Marilyn was a size 16, and this is based on a single dress that she actually wore, which is in a museum or was auctioned off. The tag in it says 16. Several issues: Issue 1. The dress was by a British designer (I think Norman Norell), both then and now, British sizes are smaller than US sizes. ( a US 16 = a British 14), issue 2: As you said, a 1960's size 16 is much smaller than a 2017 size 16. Just try on some vintage clothes in 'your size" and prepare to cry. You can't even get one leg in. Issue 3: Like most women, Marilyn's size went up and down, she had several pregnancies and miscarriages, etc. So the truth is that she may have worn a dress that had a size 16 tag, but she was nothing close to a modern American size 16. Amy Schumer is not a plus size in normal clothes (in other words her size is still within normal Misses sizes) , but she's larger than most fashion models. They use that term 'plus size model' for any model over the usual stick thin size 00 model look, even if they are not really plus size in their clothing size. It's actually rather frustrating for women who are REAL plus sizes to see size 8 women modeling plus size clothes, especially when the plus sizes don't even go down to 8. They have to pin and clip it at the back to even make it fit the model.
+lestrange yes, I checked Marilyn's measurements on different websites. A good one was "Marilyn collection", where they got her real measurements by measuring her actual clothes - including a waist belt, a skirt, etc. that she wears on pictures. Regarding a Plus-Size model, yes, they are usually not Plus-Size...
@@lexwithbub Great point about sewing patters! So, true. I need to learn how to take the old patterns and size them up and I'm trying to learn how to alter clothes because of the unreliable US sizing system. Ex. My bust is 44 inches, waist 40 inches. I can wear a large in some things, extra large in others. 14 can fit okay, sometimes a 16. It's 2019 and losing weight in a healthy way is a goal. I'm going to try more vegetarian add raw foods and the rest Mediterranean/French way of eating. Hopefully, the asthma and bronchitis is under control so I breathe good enough to start walking again and doing Zumba.
Ah, vanity sizing. Here in the U.S. over thirty years I've gained 30 pounds and at least 4 inches in circumference, yet somehow still wore size 14 year after year... lol.
I wore size 6-8 in 1992 and ended up size 0-2 in 2012. LOL No I didn't shrink or lose weight. I just lost my size. :D And in those 20 years, I wore the same brands... I felt so sorry for my petite adult friends who came to the US in 2000s. They had absolutely nothing to wear from US brands, so they had to pay premium for expensive European brands or buy kids clothes. LOL
This video came in such perfect timing. I just returned 2 pairs of pants I ordered online. Both are size 2. One is too big, the other can't get way past my butt. I hate the huge discrepancy in sizing!
When ordering online, read the reviews. You can get a middle ground of comments "Runs big for the size- order a size up" OR "Runs small for the size-order a size down" "Fits in the bum but loose at the waist" or vv. My bestie and I I are extremely similarly sized and can occasionally wear the same clothes-- except for the bum and waist. My booty keeps my pants up when I wear a lower rise(larger "waist" measurement), which I like, and that makes the waist band gap in the back on her, because her bum is somewhat flatter and smaller. The struggle is real. Oh, that we could all afford to get perfectly tailored clothes!
I wish women's sizes were like men's sizes! Men's pants (here in the US) have the waist in inches, and the inseam in inches. So they're always going to be easier to get the right size. Women's sizes are impossible. And they keep getting bigger! I have three T-shirts that are exactly the same length and width: An XX-Small from 2010, a Medium from the 1990s, and a Large from the 1970s. 🤔
Seriously! I'm under 5' tall, and I either buy "cropped" length jeans, roll up cuffs, or rejoice if I find a place that actually sells jeans/trousers/anything, really, proportioned for women with shorter legs! Being Hobbit sized is also why I've learned to sew - being able to alter clothes or just make my own that are custom fit is such a useful skill to have, when I'll never find a perfect fit straight off the rack.
What really makes me angry is that I am right around average height for a woman, I'm 5’5” and regular sized pants that are supposed to fit the average woman are 2-3 inches too long.
neuralmute I am 5'11" and can never find pants long enough! They are always too short... you girls can go to the tailler and shorter them, I have to buy at specialized shop that cost 5x the price... I cannot make them longer... they should really reinstall the length sizing S R L!
I love when pants do that! I'm a 29-30 by 32 in pants, and it's the only consistent size. I really wish shirts and dresses with sleeves would have shoulder measurements since that's the bigest challenge for me.
What about thighs?!? Even men can have that issue. My brother cannot wear jeans from Primark as way to tight in the leg even if relaxed fit!! I also suffer from the family thunder thigh but have a relatively small waist. I'm a 40-31-43 with a 26 inch thigh. I'm usually a UK 14 because of boobs and hips but often have issues with waistbands being too big (thankfully I own belts and a sewing machine). Some girls have smallers waists than my thighs but if there is stretch and a full skirt I can get into a UK size 10 skirt. Oh and sometimes I have issues even in a 14 with the boobs (basically anything that buttons) but someone invented pepperberry and bravissimo!!!!
I have almost identical measurements as Amy Schumer and I'm a size 10-12, depending on bloating. In no world is she a 6. And that's okay! There's no need to lie about it.
Krystal Paul that’s what I was thinking, she looks like she weights more than me and also taller than me and I wear anything from 9-11 depending on the stretch of the fabric. Why lie when it doesn’t matter
Sizes also purely depend on where and how you carry your weight. She seems to have more tummy weight than anywhere else, so her measurements are going to be skewed. Where size really matters is in the thighs, hips, and butt. Since most people usually go by dress sizes and she usually wears bodycon or tighter dresses, you can always size down. She is definitely on the bigger size of a 6 (let's be honest, 7) on a good day, but for the most part, she does seem more like an 8.
When she filmed train wreck they made her lose weight and she looked like a 6-8 in the film . After that she gained weight and she even mentioned it in interviews and she is definitely about a 10-12 which isn’t bad
I am an American but I buy a lot of Lolita dresses from Japan. In Japan, most of the "street fashion" styles go with a one-size model with an interesting twist; a fully shirred back panel. Lolita dresses are constructed with a skirt that is 3x or 4x the wear's waist measurement, the hem ends at the knee and the skirt is attached to a fitted bodice (so basically the Dior New Look). But because of the back panel of shirring, the dress technically fits a range of what we would consider 4 to 6 different dress sizes. There are still a lot of people who complain that they do not fit within that range and that they would like the dresses made to fit smaller or larger people, but the idea of shirring panels seems like it would really help create more fitted looks in mainstream fashion that still fit a wider range of people.
Daisy Hi, I’ll just bet that there’s an online class or RU-vid videos that would teach you all you need to know to get started. There are definitely books out there. It’s not hard unless you want to get really fancy. And when it’s done it’s an original!
@@annas.5894 Tutorials are never as good as the real thing as there is noone to correct your mistakes. Particularly in sewing etc. I learned in a real live class and i was still pathetic but at least my instructor could catch my mistakes and I could be told when and where I was going wrong and how to correct it . So it was patchy work but better than if I'd attempted it alone. Without guidance that would have just been a series of mistakes. The internet doesnt necessarily solve everything. As far as books go, then that's another balancing act. Sometimes you need a real guiding hand.
Another thing too, taking the measurements of Marilyn Monroe and other vintage celebrities with a skeptical eye. Women wore corsets back then and often times those measurements were done with fully cinched corsets on.
She wasn't the healthiest. I read in her biography that her housekeeper of many years said one of Marilyn's favorite dish was spaghetti with meatballs and she actually ate large quantities of food when she wasn't working. But she tended to put on weight easily, so when time came for preparing to shoot a movie, she would stay in bed all day not eating anything except drinking water to lose weight. Then on movie set if she was still overweight, she would run laps around the studio lot.
, and also, how to/what to measure when buying sunglasses online. There are sunglasses that I really like but I'm afraid to buy because they might not fit properly.
Hi Justine, when I physically go clothes shopping I pay little attention to sizes as Zara, H&M, Isabel Marant, IRO, IKKS, Zadig & Voltaire etc all size differently. I prefer to hold the garment up against me to judge and then take 2 or 3 sizes to try on. Whilst trying on I never look at the sizes so that my ego won't affect my judgement. I think the trick is not to look for 'a size' just the right fit for you. Bises from Perpignan x Great video again btw !
Justine Leconte officiel Here in Canada we mostly use US sizing (or s/m/l, which is different in every store--I can be a small in one store and a large in the next). Thank you for clarifying EU sizes! International sizes are often included below the US size on clothes here, so I'll make a point to learn my size and use that as a more accurate guide.
I remember the days when you could pick 4 or 5 different styles and take them into the dressing room. But now , like you I grab 3 different sizes. Shopping use to be fun. Now if the style does not suit, you have to redress and go out and try again to find something.
The issue with that for me is the limit of the amount ov clothes you're allowed to take with you in the fitting rooms. If I found 7 things I want to try on, I can't really get different sizes for all of them
@@kimbrolyy I just leave the extras with the change room attendant. I may have to dress to change them over, but at least not fully! Shopping is such a hassle now.
YES! thank you for making this video. Im so sick of women comparing themselves to Marilyn Monroe and saying how she was a size 12 and curvy blah, blah... they do not take into consideration the fact that sizes have changed dramatically over the years. Marilyn Monroe was a very small woman but had an hour glass shape.
AS would never have been a "celebrity" even 15 yrs ago- so offensive w the most minimal of "talents". Her wt fluctuates but her awful personality just like her seditious uncle in Congress- liars!
Bonjour Justine! Australia uses both UK sizes and letters, usually XS = 8UK, S= 10UK, M=12UK and L=14UK. Most brands do this, unless you go to a store that says it does US/CAN sizes i.e. Lululemon, but usually you just deduct 4, so 8 UK would be US 4 :)
I think it's such a shame clothing sizes have become so tied to our self-esteems, when all it should do is point you in the most likely direction of the garment that'll fit you so you're not trying on 6 different versions of the same garment. I must say however, though the European system might be more put together, I'm anywhere from 36 up to 40 for trousers depending on what store I walk into. That's quite a range. It.. still doesn't feel all that standardised.
You are a pro at what u do :) In love with the contents in the video. Even I started to wonder why we don't get garments in T, R & S because I always end up doing alterations
It's quite logical that they used women from the navy to measure. Because it started with the army wanting a standardised sizing system for the men's military uniforms during the war. They measure men's shoulders and found a system that worked. So it's nice that they tried to do the same for women, but we have more variables to our bodies and it won't work the same way. I always look to the sizing system when I shop online and have my measurements already down, and out in stores I take the size I think I could be, size up and hold it up to my body to measure if it'd cover me. If it does I take that, a bigger and a smaller and try them on. Exhausting when trying many things, but I rarely do so it works. :)
I definitely love your new background. India doesn't have a standardised sizing system and varies from brands. Online shopping isn't too hard because you can check your brand size with measurements. Shopping at retail shops is a pain because you have to keep trying on clothes to see your size unless it's a brand you frequent.
In Russia there are a quite similar measure system as EU, but we add +6 to all numbers. So I usually wear 44-46 in Russia which is 38-40 (depends on model). I had some problems when I was younger and when I saw a 40 at a label and thought it was my size in Russia, but then it turned out to be an EU size, and that is why I had a lot of 46Rus-oversize pullovers:) some of them are still wearable, so I don't really mind P.S. thank you, Justine, for your work and explorations - very informative and useful! the new set is great, say hi to this nice lady in the back :)
"but we add +6 to all numbers" it's not a matter of adding 6, it's because you take the circumference of your bust and divide it by 2. For example mine is 88/2=44. That's how Russian sizing works.
Justine, you touch on so many of the subjects that are important to women, but that no one else seems to mention. Thanks for clarifying a rather murky area that has always seemed a little daunting. I never fail to learn something interesting from you.
I had a clothing swap with some friends, we ranged from very skinny and tall (size S/XS) to quite overweight (I would've guessed her a size XXL?). We had clothes which often missed labels, or were in Chinese, or had shrunk down over the years. It was really eye opening to see I could fit in things someone that I thought was smaller didn't fit into, and vice versa! It was all about the proportions, some of use had bigger hips or longer legs... I was able to get a couple of sports bras fitting perfectly from a friend, but when we put on the same dress the bust area looked completely different on both of us! I guess I will always keep trying different sizes and also have to try different cuts.
Aah! Sports bras! That's another area where the fashion industry needs to get real. I am full busted, so the band on the sports bra has to be really stretchy to get it over the boobs. Even if it's a good fit, getting it on or off if I'm even the least bit sweaty is a nightmare. Most of the time, I just have to grab hold of that Y-shaped back and pull. Why isn't there a sports bra that crosses over in front and fastens on each side? Then it could be put on like a blouse. There was a brief period when they had bras like that for wearing with t-shirts. They were light support and very simple. Nowadays, I can't even find a regular front close bra. I really prefer those. Everyone's breasts shape is different. For me, a front close bra just fits better. The cups are more in the right place for my body. If anybody knows of brands of sports bras or regular bras with front close, please post here. I live in Asia, so most stores don't have my size anyway. But I can buy online.
Absolutely true lauragek, it is fascinating. My mother and I weigh *exactly* the same, she is pear shaped while I'm hourglass shaped and 2" taller. She can't get into my pants or jeans at all, and certain dresses that are a perfect fit for me would literally fall off her shoulders and bust area.
I know so many women take a sizing number very seriously but having purchased clothing from all over the world I know that a number is just a number. I tend to have a problem with the sizing issues because I have very narrow shoulders (14 inches across) and a very large bust (32G UK). If I buy a jacket in the US or the UK I tend to buy a 6-8 US and a 10-12UK. However I know that I leave my jackets unbuttoned because of my large bust - if I get a larger jacket the shoulders never fit and make me look like a child wearing my father's clothes- or like a 1980's model (thank heavens huge shoulder pads are not in right now.) For my waist and hips I tend to buy a medium, I try to avoid clothing with an actual size number on the bottom because I am very short waisted with long legs so they are always tailored to me. My true waist is 36 inches and my hips are 40 inches. However I have tiny thighs so I usually have to have them taken in as otherwise they look like a boyfriend cut on me which is highly unflattering on my 5'4" frame. I have learned that due to my unusual frame if I stick to 1960's shift dresses (Lilly Pulitzer size M), Tops with a lot of lace detail (Anthropologie size M), and suits (Hobbs London (10/12), Ted Baker 3), as well as skirts (Winser London 10) then I am ok in the clothing department for online shopping.
Love listening to your voice Justine, even though I have very little to do with fashion (: Your videos are highly informative and seems like very well researched. Thumbs up for the new set up
Justine, I subscribed to your channel recently and have only come across this video now. I love the way you approach fashion and the fashion industry via history. Your remarks about the emotional implications of the issue of size resonates with my personal experience. I know women who hate the way they look in the largest "regular" clothing sizes (because the clothing doesn't hang properly on their bodies); but who *will not purchase "plus size" clothing* because it makes them *feel* fat. In reality, the divide between "regular" and "plus" sizes is completely arbitrary. Some years ago, I offered some clothing that no longer fit me well to a smaller friend. She took one look at the size tag inside the clothing and refused even to try the items on... "Because if it fits, that means I'm a size [A], and I don't want to be a size [A]". I could not convince her that sizing is not standardized, that it isn't regulated, that I had clothing in my closet in a wide range of sizes, that no one else would be able to see the tags inside the clothes, that she could cut the tags out of the clothes... Nothing worked. To her, the size tag inside her clothing was a statement of her moral worth, a definition of her value as a female human being. Nor could she understand that by putting herself down for (maybe) fitting "size A"-- she was also-- by implication-- putting down every other woman who wears or has worn that size. We did not fight about it. I took the clothing away and donated it to charity instead. But it was horrible to have that brief glimpse inside my friend's mind and to see what torture it was for her to simply accept herself as she was. I can't even begin to imagine the mental health problems that the fashion industry has created and continues to create by using vanity sizing and by refusing to adopt standardized measurements. Thank you for being a voice of reason!
I love your new background and the lighting too. It feels like going back to fashion school when watching your videos, something I missed a lot. Thanks and keep up the awesome work 👏
Glad you brought this up! Whilst working in retail I have observed how some are so obsessed with being the smallest size possible despite them clearly not being that size and then the other category of women who think they are bigger than they are and wear 2 sizes too big where the pants are falling down almost. They are not a majority but it just shows how hung up on sizing some people are!
This whole sizing fiasco, to me, is yet one more example of gender politics at play. My WHOLE life I have wondered why 'they' could get men's sizing so very logically correct and ours were a complete disaster. I wish we'd use the waste and length just like the guys and then maybe bust and length for tops. Of course, we play right into it all with our vanity but yet again that's part of the whole political mix. Why should it be some kind of huge deal what I as a women have for size? When I studied in France during college and wanted to buy some clothes I had no idea what size I was. I therefore asked the gal in the shop what she would guess I was and she looked horrified. Was I really going to make her do this? Would I storm out of the store if she told the truth? Seeing her look of horror I told her look, it doesn't mean anything to me. I know nothing of your sizes, just tell me straight out so I can find some pants please. She relaxed a little, looked me up and down and rather nervously and apologetically guessed 40. THANK you. . . . and indeed she was right. Sadly, I see no end in sight to the shenanigans so ladies, be the change if you can eh? Let's all just dress fabulously and feel great and may the number be damned! :D
The thing that always frustrates me is inseam on women's pants. I'm 5'8" tall and in America, clothing manufacturers all think you're 5'2" (and the bigger the size, the shorter the pants). I wear men's pants because I know I can get a 32" inseam and they will be long enough.
-Hope Moskal -I haven't lived in the states in a decade so I'm a bit out of touch with how it is there but that sucks. I do find buying guys jeans is the only way to avoid stretch if you don't want it though. Move to Sweden and you can feel short if you like. LOL I'm 5'9 and used to think I was tall before I moved here. Now I'm average at best. ;)
I've had kind of the opposite experience. I'm 5'1" and have gained a fair amount of weight over the years. American clothing manufacturers have this strange idea that as the sizes go up, the length of a person's arms also increases. As for pants, I've always had to hem them, regardless of what size I was wearing at the time. The only solution - or, more accurately, the best solution - I've found is to design and make my own clothes. It's liberating. Once you get a set of well fitting patterns made, size is an entirely moot point.
Very interesting! So far I have lived in four different countries (three continents) and each one had a different sizing system! No surprise there as people's body shape and heights vary quiet a lot based on the race, ethnicity and climate they live in. But when I moved to USA 6 years ago, I weighted 50kg and size S/0 was perfect for me in most brands. Although I couldn't find cloths in department stores ever specially while living midwestern states as they were carrying sizes 2/M and higher so I had to shop in boutiques. Now after 6 years and I am 53 kg, only 00/XXS/XS fits me. I always laugh it out and look at the European sizes which I have been a solid 34 for +10 years now globally :D Thanks Justine for the great informational videos!
I think I am similar in size to her, I'm. A European 38 and size 8 in Australia at the shops but in US a size 0, even though according to size charts I should be 6 in US.
Merci Justine, pour vos conseils , et a cause de vous je viens de savoir mes vrais nombres (I was dividing cm by 2.5 instead of 2.54 until now mdr 😅😅) xx
Fantastic video. My grandmother (who, like me, is a 2-4 in modern sizes - even in her 90s!) gave me a lovely jacket from London Fog she bought in the 1970s. I was shocked to see it was a size 8.
This is a very interesting video Justine. I find clothes shopping not a pleasant experience. Even within particular brands, when you look at their size chart and order accordingly, you still find their chart is not correct and clothes come up bigger or smaller. It is quite a nightmare unless you can try multiple garments on, and not everyone can do that.
if within one brand & one size, several "identical" garments still vary in size, for me that's a big no-no. It means that the supply chain is low-quality and that quality control is bad.
Besides sizing, it's also frustrating to deal with cut, specially for pants. Almost all jeans in the US are cut assuming the woman buying it has a very very small curve between waist and hips. I'm not even talking about plus size, I'm talking about proportions. It's very frustrating that so few brands sell different cuts for different curves. I'm always happy when I find jeans that have a curvy version in smaller sizes.
+Monica Hernandez look for South American brands: they are made for ladies with more hips and bust (i.e. more difference between waist & hips, what you want).
Yes, alot of anerican brands still assume that women are built like brooke shields at 17. Th hank god for jennifer lopez, its thanks to her that few brands wised up.
I remember the 90s when it was impossible to find jeans that fit you butt/thighs without a huge waist you had to cinch down. Things are much better now, altho it's still only 15% of jeans are curvy. I know by heart the two or three brands & style that work and just keep buying them
Fascinating. I remember being told I was fat as a 5'7"/170 cm tall 12 year old because I weighed 120 lb/54 kg (as I stood before her with a slim athletic build). True, this was from another 12 year old quite a bit shorter than me, but that started my fascination for what I called the tyranny of numbers. Another issue in sizing other than vanity and lack of firm standards is quality of the cutting of the garment. Same size, style, brand yet in one the shoulders are too tight. Frustrating!
I never considered myself a fashionista but I love your videos. They are a treat and I save watching them until after I've completed all the house chores I don't like. The non-standard sizing is getting to be more of a problem as we start buying more and more of my clothes online so I have to look up the designers size chart every time. This is an exciting time in fashion too with the greater variety of clothes available, greater variety of "in style" clothing so it's easier to pick out flattering clothing (especially thanks to your how to dress you body videos).
I live in Australia and whilst our sizes are supposedly the same as the UK.......they are not, they seem to be about one size larger e.g I'm a size ten in most Australian brands but 12 in UK brands. Although there is huge inconsistency between brands here, even when the measurements seem correct, the fit may not actually be! Very aggravating and annoying. We need an international system, the world is "shrinking" and with online shopping etc. maintaining different systems for different countries becomes redundant. One size for all and measurements that are truly correct would be wonderful.
+Stacey Mcalister while I agree, one international standard would be difficult to implement, due to varying body proportions in each region of the world. Some countries are "shorter" on average, some are "curvier", "taller", "straighter", etc. It becomes a real headache and so big international brands usually adapt their proportions depending on the region (at least the brands that do sizing properly!).
That's true. I find many cheaper Aus brand clothes made in China have the amusing tendency to make the arms longer as the size increases. Clearly some Chinese clothing manufacturers view us as Orangutans.....maybe because of the behaviour of some Australians when they travel......
Another Aussie here!! Yes, I have noticed this re AU to UK sizing... However I am kind of on borderline 10-12 AU at the moment (on my bottom half) but 8-10 AU on my top half, bloody pear shape :P So that can make it frustrating when buying dresses online, the waist might fit perfectly but depending on the cut, the top half will drown me. An example: I bought three dresses from Emily & Fin, UK brand a month ago. All size UK10, all different designs. One fit well and I kept it. One fit OKAY but I knew it would be more comfortable in a size up. The next one I couldn't even do up the buttons, I was shocked! I got a UK12 in the latter two. The one that fit okay in the 10 fit so much nicer in a 12. However the other one, whilst I could do up the buttons the torso was longer (I have a shorter torso) and so the dress didn't sit at my waist properly, and the bust was too big. Instead of hating on my own body and thinking "if only my boobs were bigger / my waist was smaller" etc etc, I instead thought "It's okay, this dress design doesn't work for me". It's really hard to have that mind shift though! I'm hoping a friend of mine will fit into the dress as I didn't want to send it back. She has bigger boobs and a smaller waist than me so I hope it fits her!
I wish they would bring back having the different height measurements. I'm 5"1 and in the UK most garments are designed for 5"6-7 height despite the average height being only 5"4. I find it more annoying than not being able to find plus size clothing. Not to mention most plus size clothing is designed for even taller women. Still here's to dreaming about one day buying a maxi dress 😂
VampireDeamonFreak so true! I’m 5”2 and its rare that I can find jeans that I don’t have to shorten or turn up. Cropped trousers always just look like I’ve bought regular trousers that aren’t quite long enough.
Great video, Justine! As an eating disorder survivor, I find this kind of discussion about standards and measurements really important as a reminder that sizes and numbers are truly meaningless :) I live in Germany but I am originally from Brazil, where the clothing sizes range from 36 to 50 or XS to XL ... unfortunately there is no standard, and just few brands take length into account. Weirdly enough, our bras don't have cup sizes - so women need to pray that their boobs are proportional to their back measure. Great, huh? :(
Brilliant as usual, Justine. I wear smart, tailored blazers and shirts slightly on the looser side with long maxi skirts. So without revealing my figure, I always look slim and tall (in reality I'm 162.2 cm tall, pear shaped, and 36" in euro size - plus size if I were to take up modelling). As you keep telling us Justine, it's all about feeling good and looking smart and clean. Thanks for giving us women a boost, I'm glad you're on the internet!
I was a 10 in England for years, now post menopause, I am size 18! However in Marks and Spencers I can be 16 or 18, but in H&M I'm up to size 22!! Guess where I tend to shop?
This explains why I’m always a much larger size when I find and try on vintage clothing at thrift stores! The current sizing in the US is such a mess.... I tried on a few pairs of jeans at the same brand/store this weekend, and ended up being both a size 2 and 6 depending on the cut...
Totally off topic - I'm not really interested in clothing or fashion but for some reason I've felt compelled to click your videos when they show up in my recommendations, and I've stayed because your accent and mannerisms are just like, very pleasant to watch/listen to. You just come off as a really lovely and sweet person. That's all!
I work in retail and it's quite simple! Support your local boutiques and drive there and try the clothing on!! All clothing is different and must be tried on to get a perfect look! Most important, DO NOT get hung up on the size. Try on:))). Thank you Justine. Love your videos
Yeah, dunno about these 'european' sizes, there's usually a whole bunch of sizes for different European countries (and even then there's different sizes you need within and between stores).
Yeah, I think it's because italyans are like shorter or something like that, germans are pretty tall (I live in Germany) and when I buy like a 36 shirt in Germany it says that it would be a 38 in France and a 40 in Italy (its really confusing😂)
Do you think there's any chance of getting small jeans from italian stores? Even the smallest size that's available where I live is usually way too big on me
So true! In the US, ordering online is actually the best bet because you can measure yourself against the sizing chart (provided on most websites, Amazon, Nike, ect). Buying clothes in person is an exercise in frustration, you spend lots of time in the changing room.
I studied abroad in South Korea and found their measuring system super easy to use. Basically for tops you would just need to know your bust measurement (...85, 90, 95...) - same for bras (only needed to add the cup size), and for bottoms - your waist size (...67, 70, 73, 76...). The label would even mention the measurements a lot of the times (i.e. size: 76, waist size: 71 - 75 cm). At least for people of average height and weight, I think the system works quite well and is easy to remember / establish what size you need.
She’s 6 to 8? I’m 6 to 8 and I don’t look like Amy 😂😂😂😂 idk where she’s buying her clothes from but I want to know!!! Looking forward to fit in a size 2 or 0 🙃
Wall of text incoming: I don't consider myself "fashionable" or even really interested in fashion. I joke with my mother that I feel sorry for her because she got a daughter who doesn't share her interest for clothes and fashion. That said, I like this channel. You explain concepts and fashion... things... in a simple way without being patronizing. I loved this video because it explains something I've been feeling most of my life: that my body is "wrong". I so rarely find clothes that FIT. When I was younger I was thin, but so tall that I had to wear L shirts for the length, but the rest of my measurements would generally make me a S/M. Same for jeans and trousers. So I hardly ever found clothes that fit, making me uninterested in clothes because "no matter what" nothing looked good on me. Now, I'm what you would probably call "plus sized" (or fat). Usually european size 52. Thing is, that because I'm still tall clothes are still too short in general. Because I think most women of size 50+ are shorter? So finding jeans is still a nightmare, because if I get them over my hips and arse they are... short. TL;DR: as a tall person of varying size over the years my experience with clothes has generally been "too wide and/or too short". What you said about brand designers designing for S-size and then just scaling up makes so much sense. Thank you.
Shopping for me is difficult in the US. There's vanity sizing. There's different sizing standards between brands. There's also materials. Some things have a lot of give. In my closet I have medium all the way to xs in shirts. It's ridiculous. Usually when I purchase I ignore the label and simply hold up the garment to guess if it will fit. Then try it on because cut can be awful. As for online, I look at measurements.
As a woman in her mid-sixties in the States, I’ve lived through the many sizing changes you’ve addressed...and was quite confused until I heard the term ‘vanity sizing’ and then it all made sense. In the sixties/seventies I was size 8/10, and yet was trimmer than my (generally) size 8, sometimes 6, of today (and btw, I THOUGHT I didn’t remember size 6 back then). When buying clothes, I find I need to try on each piece in a couple of sizes because of the lack of standardized sizing...and hesitate to buy online for that reason. I’ve been amused at the network shopping channels who take ‘vanity sizing‘ into a new reality. I’m new to your channel, Justine...and thoroughly enjoy the research, humor, and directness of your videos. Have you done any videos on fashion for the ‘mature’ woman (love that euphemism...somehow implying our immaturity before a certain age) and changes it might bring? Keep up the good work....I always look forward to your thoughts.
What about how to get a proper fitting bra? I keep reading that 80% of women are wearing the WRONG size bra! Most often with too small for the cup size and too large for the measurement!
spring kelly I had the same problem. There are specialty stores just for bras with staff trained to measure the customers properly. Maybe you can find one in your area. I hope so. 😊
Shops that specialise in measuring boobs are a joke. I have been to three different stores in one day and received different bra sizes in each, both rib and cup sizing.
Part of the issue with bras is most shops only sell a limited range of sizes, so they have to fit you to the bra rather than the bra to you. Brands like Freya offer a wide range, and shops like Rigby & Peller, Nordstrom, and The Wizard of Bras stock not only a wide range of options, some even offer custom sizing. For comparison, years ago I shopped at Victoria's Secret and I was sized at a 36C. I then went to Rigby & Peller the same day and I was sized with Freya at 32F. Since getting properly sized and shopping with only specific brands I've found there is a standard for bras, it's just most people shop where they know (eg: Victoria's Secret) rather than researching the topic. I will say that having a properly fitted bra is an amazing thing and makes you more comfortable and confident!
Go to A Bra That Fits on Reddit. You'll be amazed at how many women have been poorly sized. I got sized as a 34AA years ago, and wondered why the bras never fit me. Turns out my size is a 32C!!! The letter does not indicate breast size, it's simply the difference between the underbust and bust measurement (my bust is 34 standing, underbust 31). So many women think a D-cup =large breast and that's not the case at all. Also different style bras will fit differently.
First, bra fitters are trained to fit bras, not to 'measure boobs'. Second, you were very likely trying on bras in different styles, from different manufacturers. My experience in various specialty shops in my mid-size Canadian city has been excellent: Trained bra fitters generally begin by evaluating the fit of the bra you have on; and carry on from there, 'pulling' what they think might work from their stock, and evaluating each one as they go. You will probably find that bra shopping takes more time than you want it to do. Your size will vary between brands, between styles, and with fluctuations in your weight. You will need to try on before you buy. Every. Single Time. Sadly, there is no such thing as an ironclad, everlasting, take-it-to-the-bank bra-size-for-life that will allow you to zip into a store, grab "your size" in any brand, pay and go. Not, I agree, the ideal situation for someone who wants a fast, efficient shopping experience. But, I've found the results are worth the extra trouble.
This video is so helpful! Thank you! Sizing is definitely frustrating here in the US. Even shoe sizes are not consistent. It makes shopping online extremely difficult. A company called "Like a Glove" has leggings that are supposed to take accurate measurements for you. I wonder if that concept will take off and if it will help us all find our correct size. I do love your new background, but your videos are fantastic, no matter what background you use. 😊💖
Please make a video on your opinion of how people on RU-vid say that you must have key label fashion pieces in your wardrobe that will "never go out of style" like: A chanel classic flap bag, burberry trench coat, chanel brooch, louboutin heels, louis vuitton keepall or speedy, moschino belt, etc. Are these pieces truly a must have for someone going for a classic look? Are they truly timeless pieces that will always be relevant or is this just a marketing strategy?
I don't think she has done a video on those specific pieces, but her videos give her own recommendations of what is classic & will never go out of style.
Something like an LV speedy doesn't "go out of style," but it's not really in style either. That said, don't buy anything you don't like. I think the benefit of owning something that is more "classic" is that it holds its resale value a LOT better than something that's trendy.
At a museum, I have stood right in front of the white halter dress Marilyn Monroe wore in the movie, 7 Year Itch. The dress is quite small and looks 1 third of the size of a modern American size 12.
Thank you for this explanation! I find, as a plus size person, that it's very hard to take accurate measurements, especially of the bust. (Additionally, due to breast cancer surgery, I only have one breast.) Finding clothes that fit properly is a nightmare. I am slowly losing weight so must buy new clothes occasionally (thank goodness). I wish that here in the U.S. there were stores where one could receive more personalized assistance in finding the proper sized clothing. I know fancy, expensive shops may have this service, but it would be wonderful if stores for those of more modest means also had a similar service. Thanks so much for your excellent videos!
Two words, "Dress Barn". They have old fashioned service in the dressing rooms. Any sales person will be happy to get you sizes and suggestions (they know their merchandise). I'm not associated with them. I use to shop Macy's, Bambergers, Wanamakers and the like. I miss that personal attention anyone got in the dressing room. Oh, they are not too pricey and sales are excellent. Go for the sales and clearance if on a budget, I do. Quality is decent.
I read an article about "vanity sizing" a while ago. The interesting and important piece of information is this. Each brand has a demographic they are making clothes for. The size scale, size 10 lets say, is for a size 10 dress form. If their target demographic is Asian ( short and petite) it will look vastly different from a size 10 whose demographic is people from Netherlands( tall and muscular). It would be unreasonable to expect every brand to make sizes to fit that range. So we find that there are certain brands that almost always fit. Because we were their target demographic. I thought this was comforting. It matters how clothes fit, not the number.
I'm 185 cm tall, of a healthy weight (not skinny, not fat) and have a pear shape. I never seem to fit into the sizing systems, because when I look at the measuring charts I am a EU size 38-40 according to my chest and waist, but a size 44 according to my hips. I also have the problem that even though I'm almost in the 'plus size' category in most stores for my pants, they're never long enough for my legs!! The size only considers my width, and not my length! It is soo frustrating! Although I am lucky that cropped pants are in fashion at the moment ;)
In Costa Rica (and as far as I know in Latin America) we don't use numbers, because there are brands from all over the world and nobody seems to agree on that. We use letters instead: (XS), S, M, L, XL, (XXL, XXXL). The most common sizes are between S and XL, I am personally size S although sometimes a size XS or M fits better. For you, Justine, because you seem taller than me, I would say you are a size M in Latin America. When shopping online I always use my measurements. When shopping in a store I always try it on.
I am so glad you mentioned vanity sizing! Most people will not because they do not want to offend anyone. I hate shopping now because of it. My measurements are 35-25-35 in most stores for some reason that puts me in a 0 or 00. I was in a store a few months ago and I was trying on the vanity sized 0 and it was to big. I came out and asked for a smaller size and the sales lady asked me what size I was wearing and I said 0. She said they do not have anything smaller. An apparently normal sized customer made a rude scoffing noise and rolled her eyes at me and my size. Some people are so rude
I don't even assign myself a size bc it's different everywhere. I just try on each size that looks like it might fit and choose the one that feels best.
I'm really surprised you are an '8' in North American sizing (here in Canada we tend to have the same sizing as the US because we have a lot of American clothes here). To me, you look more like a size 2 and that's just by seeing you on camera which we know flattens and widens a body. I am usually a size 8 but because of health reasons, closer to a 12-14 now and I was nowhere as slim as you when I was a size 8. I guess this just emphasizes what you are saying....that even between brands the sizing is so incredibly different even between brands. So frustrating. Can't someone just take the chest and waist sizing for a top, divide them and multiply by a constant that then fits in a range and given a number or letter? Pants should be a non-issue. Number of centimetres around the waist, divide by a contant and there's your size. How can you go wrong when you can easily measure your waist at home and your inseam, to find your size? Anything besides the waist size and inseam length for pants is just simply backwards and useless.
According to size charts I'm a size 6 US but in reality when I shop from the US I only fit size 0 or smaller. I'm a 38 in Europe, same as justine. Some US stores don't even stock clothing my size, Ann Taylor is all too big.
Ann Taylor is notorious for being ridiculously vanity sized. I'd need a 00, which is ridiculous. I'm 5'5 (165cm) and 120lbs (54.4kg) - I shouldn't be wearing the smallest sizes!
Martyna Xerosun except there are many brands of menswear solely measured in S,m, l, xl, X xl etc obviously the xls are plus sizes, they say plus sizes on the websites.
Men are NEVER categorized as "plus size". They are just a size, end of. The fashion industry tries to manipulate women and marks sizes that are actually quite common and average as "plus", thus making the majority of women feel less worthy and indirectly sending a message that everyone should aspire to be NOT plus size. A highly dangerous system that puts young vulnerable women at risk of developing serious eating disorders if they can't fit to a certain size.
I live in Ireland and sure as hell there are no plus size men items here. I mean, there are large sizes but they are not called plus size :) I know because I like shopping in men fashion stores myself.
I love when you explain the history and background of these topics. Since I sew, I always look at measurements and proportions rather than sizes. I live in the US, and vanity sizing sucks!
Amy Shumer, to me, has "chipmunk cheeks". And still, I would love to have her measurements. In 1964, my dad told me that: I was thinner than Marilyn Monroe, but I had these darn Chipmunk cheeks. 😝 So in my late 50s, I had mesotherapy to slenderize them. Thank you science!
Great topic. I wish we still had a size standard. I also think that vanity sizing led many to not mind their bodies. I often hear "but Marilyn Monroe was a 12" and generations get bigger. I've got pants from the 80s and I didn't get much bigger. I noticed the size changes over that time and found it disappointing and misleading. Here in Hong Kong we have garments from many countries so also a variety of size standards. Even shoes are a problem w/ many brands not carrying 1/2 sizes or the lengths & distance over the foot vary widely for a size. Store employees are very nice at helping you sort out a size. A standard would help in many ways.
I wear regular sized clothing, but I wear size 7.5 EEE shoes [USA sizes). Most shoes in the States consider 'B' to be wide. The bone structure of my feet is wider near the ball of the foot. That makes most shoes too tight across the front. It can be very painful - if I can even get into the shoe. I haven't worn heels since high school because of this. Where can I get nice, classic, high quality, comfortable shoes that fit? I LOVE your videos Justine! Thank you Geri
+DoctorGeri I have the same problem. I don't know where to buy shoes but I do have some strategies to deal with it. If I'm not looking for very feminine shoes I always see if I can find mens shoes instead. They are always wider and fits me perfectly. The other thing that I do, is that I get a pair of shoes in the correct lenght and then I take it to a shoemaker and get it stretched. If it's a good quality shoe, they can stretch it quite a bit. You could also buy a shoe-stretcher and do it yourself. The third options is to get a shoe a size bigger and fill it out with an extra sole but that option makes me feel like a clown.
Frida, I have done the same. I have ordered Men's New Balance sneakers. I do have a catalog that carries some wider shoes, but I would like more of a variety. [www-masoneasypay-com] If anyone knows of other online shops or catalogs that sell high-quality , wide width shoes, pleas let us know. Geri :^)
It can certainly be difficult, especially if you don't like sporty looking shoes. Perhaps you could find something here. Although I never ordered from them myself. www.evans.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogNavigationSearchResultCmd?catalogId=33054&storeId=12553&langId=-1&viewAllFlag=false&sort_field=Relevance&categoryId=209435&beginIndex=1&pageSize=24&cmpid=aff_cont_awuk_103428&_%24ja=tsid%3A24159%7Ckw%3A103428&awc=1423_1496650364_173c061154965dd077317ef4cbf1f4b8&geoip=noredirect&dimSelected=%2Fen%2Fevuk%2Fcategory%2Fshoes-250471%2FN-99bZa25%3FNo%3D0%26Nrpp%3D20%26siteId%3D%252F12553%26catalogId%3D33054%26storeId%3D12553%26langId%3D-1%26viewAllFlag%3Dfalse%26sort_field%3DRelevance%26categoryId%3D209435%26beginIndex%3D1%26pageSize%3D24%26cmpid%3Daff_cont_awuk_103428%26_%2524ja%3Dtsid%253A24159%257Ckw%253A103428%26awc%3D1423_1496650364_173c061154965dd077317ef4cbf1f4b8%26geoip%3Dnoredirect
If you find out let us know. I am wearing a size 7 D width, and I actually have two different sized feet, 6D, 6 1/2D..so I end up in 7D instead and that's in athletic shoes, no heels and not dressy either. Ugh..!
I'm a 38-30-38 measurements, and normally wear a size 12 in Australian clothing. But when my grandmother passed away, we had to go through all her belongings. She was a seamstress in her working life and she had many patterns from the 1950's and 60's in her collection (yes I took several of them!). According to those patterns, I'm a 14 or 16. That's where "sizes" becomes silly. I'm all for a system similar to men's clothing where (for example) trousers are measured by your waist and inseam. For ladies, considering we have more in the posterior than men do, perhaps a hip and inseam would be a better fit, but either way it would make MUCH more sense than having to know or work out what "size" you are.
A point to add to when they came up with standard sizes in the US - I read an article that pointed out that when they came up with the standard, most (if not all) the women measured were Caucasian. Which is why people of other ethnicities have had a hard time until relatively recently - different ethnicities have different body types.
Absolutely love this video! We are so much more than a number and I love how you explained it. I grew up in Europe and now live in the USA and I have to say the whole sizing thing is so hard to get your head around. Therefore I always take a tape measure in my bag with me and if buying online I only ever go by measurements and not standard sizing. If I went by sizing in my wardrobe I literally own clothes sizes 6, 8, 10 and some 12 which is crazy as I myself am one size! Thank you for shedding light on a topic that makes women feel so inadequate and for making us all feel we are more than a clothes size. Keep up the amazing videos.
Where did you get Amy Schumers sizing info? Because after looking at some pictures of her in a bikini it looks like Marilyn wasn't the only one who lied a little about her size 😅
+CeCe Smith I checked multiple sources for both ladies, so I am "pretty sure"... But I believe that Amy Schumer's weight does vary up & down, so it might also depend on the picture...
CeCe Smith I am plus-sized & I always state my true size. I am what I am & I make no apologies. So it seems that some women do not play coy about their weight. 😉 It took me decades to reach this level of acceptance, but I am much happier now that I have.
I am pretty sure that when filming for "Trainwreck" Amy looks to be a US 6-8 in the movie- especially in the dance scene with the cheerleader outfit on.
I think there is a slippery slope of lies going on. A celebrity, perhaps understandably, lies about her measurements. As a result, women who actually have her fake measurements don't want people thinking of them as similar to that actresses size, so they lie smaller, and on and on. I wish the celebrity culture weren't so fake, because it has real effects on ordinary women.
I love the new background and lighting! I wish the US would come up with better sizing. My problem is that when I measure, sometimes I measure a 4 in hips and a four in bust and an 8 in waist ( or something like that) so then I don't know what to do. I am a straight figure. Small but a less defined waist. Usually I just adjust sizing based on the type of clothing I am buying. Someone needs to design clothing targeted for specific body types. (; On another note, I ordered a t shirt from you and received it recently and I love it. It's so soft and drapes so well. Thank you!
Any Schumer isn't size 8, and definetely not 6. We can see her photos where she's standing beside Jennifer Lawrence whos size is US 6, UK 10 or EUR 38. And she's definitely at least two sizes bigger than Jennifer. In UK it is clearly at least 12.
Thanks so much for this video! It drives me crazy to hear people say "Marilyn was a size 12", as if that means something! I actually had a friend try to argue that with me, saying she (my friend) was the same size. When she mentioned she was a size 13, I realized she was still shopping in the Junior's section...
In school (circa 1070's) I took many sewing home ec classes; and learned sizing off of pattern envelopes. One thing I carry with me from the tailoring class, where we took a closer look at construction and fit, was the pattern designer's intended fit -- allowing enough inches "ease" between our body's measurments, the pattern envelope's size to those measures, the measurment along certain lines on the pattern, and transferring that to the fit and flow of the garment, and then being savvy enough to modify where necessary to personal taste, comfort and fit. I know for me - I personally like some clothing items to fit with more "flow" around me, and other items to fit closer to the body. It gets tricky finding those types of comfort fit in manufactured clothing, particularly going from so many knits and knitwear back to woven garments (specifically wovens without any 1-3% of lycra to give the "knit fit".) I love your videos, and listen/watch them regularly for keeping myself in common sense when it comes to trending clothing, and maintaining and modifying my own personal style. Keep up the great work! Thank you
I wonder why we (US) do not use sizing for women like men's sizing for pants. They go by waist measurement and length. So, 32/36. My legs are 34 inches...and I would love to have my waist size based on my actual inches by length inches. It would make finding pants MUCH easier. Clearly, it isn't because they would have to make so many additional sizes because they do so for men.
Interesting fact: Sizing in Germany was started by Aenne Burda, the woman who started the pattern magazine. She was frustrated with the sizing mess and started measuring real women to be able to create patterns that fit. This enabled women in Post-war Germany, where ready-made clothes were scarce, but fabric was available, access to fashionable clothes.
Thank you (merci beaucoup) for generously sharing this information. I am a 62-year-old American woman and yes, the sizes have changed tremendously in my lifetime. If that weren't bad enough, in the USA we also have different sizing scales: Misses' and Women's: "The difference between women's and misses' sizes are that women's sizes are cut differently, with deeper arm holes, lower bust lines and a larger waist, than misses. Consequently, women's sizes are approximately one size larger than comparable misses sizes." There is also vanity sizing in the "plus" sizes, so while I will be a 3 (no dreaded X) at one shop that caters to middle-aged women, I will be a 1X at Macy's (in most clothes in their women's plus-size area.) In some shops a 1X is equivalent to 18-20 in Misses and in other shops 1X is equivalent to 20-22 in Misses. It is truly a nightmare unless you know your exact measurements, keep a tape measure in your purse (as others have suggested below), and keep hold of your sense of humor while shopping. My main fit problem now is that the ARMS of plus-size blouses and dresses have been drastically skewed to accommodate the vanity of the very young (teens to twenties) plus size shoppers, leaving their elders (whose arms have gotten bigger with time) to shop UP a size just to accommodate our upper arms. Now a blouse will "swim" on my torso and cling to my arms like Saran Wrap. I guess we'll need age sizing to go with the rest of our madness?!? LOL.
