I feel lucky. Found a few cans at a crusty old pawn shop middle of the... times. Love my "22 magnum" AR load for critter dispatch. I usually keep one in my pocket when running the farm to pop in the chamber.
They haven't restarted the production line for it yet. Think they said another two years before they've settled the contract they halted the production line for.
With my .50-70 Sharps Carbine, which is a newer gun. I was using a light charge of Unique which is in most reloading manuals, and work well for the Lyman 450 grain bullet I was getting from Montana Bullet Works. I didn't have a chronograph at the time to measure it, but I can tell you that the from the recoil and shooting it, the smokeless Unique load is tame compared to a case with even only 62 grains of FFG Goex in it. The nice thing about that tame Unique .50-70 load in my Sharps is that at 100 yards it drops the bullet right in nicely on the target consistently and I doubt a deer would really know the difference exactly how fast that bullet smacks him when that 450 grain load gets there. One of the things I do when I load a case with smokeless powder each and every round since I don't load in huge volumes and I have done this for years for my own piece of mind is that I weigh all the components, the bullet, the primed case and of course the powder. I have that number written down so that when the cases are loaded, I weigh the loaded case. If that case somehow got undercharged or overcharged, it will show up there and then. Since I rarely load more than 20 cases or at the most, 50 at a time, this may take some time away from loading to do this, but it's a darn good way to make sure those cases are loaded correctly.
I think that the reason that we went with the "you must never" approach on things like this is because its easier to manage from the Nanny State approach. I have run with many sticks and am just fine.
So many people are just kids who got older. They don't want to be responsible for their own decisions, so they want big government to tell them what to do all of the time. So we get an entire generation sitting in their apartment in their underwear wired into a virtual reality, singing how they want to be an Oscar Meyer weiner. Be well!!!
I load both smokeless and BP in 45-70. I use 405 grain polymer coated bullets (SNS) in both and shoot in my 1880s Trapdoor. For smokeless, I use Accurate 5744 powder and get about 1240 fps using load data for the Trapdoor. For BP, I use my own powder (which I learned to make using your videos!) and get about 1330 fps.
It's strange to me that people use very fast powder in antique firearms. You would think a higher charge of some nice slow burning powder between h110 and 8208xbr would be ideal
im lazy so i just buy triple 7 3f in bulk and make paper carts for my 44 and 50 cal rifle and drink beer while not getting a aheadache over reloading XD
About not wearing ear plugs……. Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say. I remember when I visited my grandmother in town, and she dropped some serious wisdom on me. She said, “Grandson, one day some people will waste their time reading your comment.” Today is that day.
I always load for the weekest gun. So i end up with alot of 38s&w top break loads and 4570 trap door loads. That way i know i can stuff them in anything on the shelf. Also if you get hit by a bus the family doesn't have a time bomb
Great video! I use unique and 2400 in a lot of reduced, cast bullet rifle loads. (38-55, 45-70, 30-30 etc.) Although they were published loads in 50+ years ago they aren't recommended now. I think that's to compensate for careless reloaders more than anything else. The old loads shoot great.
The 50-70 is a fine old timer. Elmer Keith spoke well of it, and its reliablilty for putting meat on the table. One of the biggest disadvantages to using smokles powder in antique arms intended for traditional black is, it tends to throw the sights off. I almost always get the best accuracy using black powder and loads that replicate original load data. Trail boss is a fine powder and can be tweaked a little bit for higher velocity. However, traditional black is generally much safer to use in antiques. Another great video, keep up the good work.
Yeah you do a very good approach to everything black powder I'm 73 years old and since I was like 10 11 years old I've been experimenting with black powder and things I shouldn't have been experimenting with but anyway I'm still alive to this day I have burned away about half of my hair once upon a Time with some black powder and that was interesting eyebrow on the right side was gone right side of my head to all the hair was gone but I survived the glasses are smoked up a little bit but anyway I learned my lessons and and I've made it to 73
A addendum to reloading with smokeless in antique cartridge guns is to NEVER use jacketed bullets. Only use lead bullets. Jacketed bullets produce a different pressure curve that will possibly/probably result in a very bad day.
It's not that they produce a different pressure curve. It's that 9/10 they're severely undersized and allow a lot of hot gasses to escape by and it starts etching the edges of the lands in a hurry.
@@TexasLeverGunnerSeverely disagree. Ever slug a barrel? Try it with a jacketed projectile. Pressure rises more rapidly like a barrel obstruction till the jacket is swaged and moving. The reloading manuals even have hotter loads for comparable weight lead as long as it's not pushing extremes like 1300fps non gas checked or 1600fps gas checked.
@@PBVader I've been handloading and casting for over 15 years, and I shoot BPCR competitively. I'm well aware of how pressure works, and even though what you said is true, that's still not why it is not advisable to fire jacketed smokeless ammunition out of an original black powder rifle. The correct reason, is the reason I stated.
As long a you keep the pressure down where it belongs, preferably with a pressure curve more similar to gunpowder. They'll recoil a lot less than an equivalent BP load. As always, don't be dumb, and you'll not die from having a gun explode in your hands.
Please make cork wood black powder, I want to see how it compares to balsa wood black powder in terms of burn rate, cleanliness and whether it's cheaper than balsa.
Is it safe? Safer than going near San Francisco with that mustache! But BP has a maximum pressure. It doesn't exactly level up, but it stops at 14,000 psi. A light load is almost near that. Steel has a tensile strength requiring 60,000 psi to tear it. Big safety margin. Smokeless powder does not have a flat pressure curve. What!!! It means that if you start with 20, then go to 22 and it goes a little faster. You go to 24 it goes a lot faster. 26 goes fast enough to blow it up. Smokeless builds an enormous pressure with very little change. It makes way more pressure then it takes to tear steel.
Been wondering what smokeless load would be good for my knight bighorn magnum rated .50BP. Heard of 180bp loads and I have shot 150bp shot but shoot 125 on the regular, like to mix White lighting pellets with 75 bp for a 125 shot. The white lighting really clears the fowling out. Just expensive.
Yeah thanks for the reply, it’s the heaviest rifle in my collection! It’s built like a cannon. More of a SHTF question. There are also ways to juicing up air rifles to get better performance also. Also wondering when people will realize they can make wooden AR lowers on CNC routers! Free knowledge share everything!
I'm surprised that @leonelmichaud3519 isn't here saying: "of course it's safe, that's how it was designed! What else would you be putting in it? Black Powder? YOU KNOW THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE, GET IT RIGHT SON!"
Lol yup i am Eagerly awaiting the return of our lord and savior the holy black that will come back to this earth and save us from the pride and arrogance of smokeless powder. Ps you are running that ol trapddoor like a champ
Were you loading your trail boss by weight or by volume? You know smokeless is always by weight and black by volume.😂😂😂…….ya I know. I made an attempt at humor. Sorry😂 Nice shooting by the way. I haven’t been able to enjoy any shooting in Texas due to the high heat.
You know you cannot i repeat cannot use smokless powder in black powder cartridge firearms. All the experts will tell you that. You know the ones that say you cannot load 40 grains of black powder in a 45 colt case lol.
I like shooting Rolling blocks. Mine are proofed for smokeless (up to a point). I find shooting a round of smokeless after a BP session gets most of the fouling out
Let this be a less a few weeks ago I was shooting my flintlock & forgot to close my powder container a spark hit it & I now have 2 degree burn on most of my hand & forearm
There are quite a few BP substitutes like Pyrodex. Why use smokeless gunpowder for such a large volume case designed for BP. If you want modern smokeless gunpowder, then use a modern rifle.
By gum I got a good chuckle this morning. A fad was good. My only critique if you want to call it that is, you lost the opportunity for a great punch line. Part of the fun of cleaning BP is the added spice in your life when you're significant other first detect the hint of sulfur in the air. Good video Mountain man
With that load of Trail Boss you have duplicated a .50 Cal pellet rifle. To my best recollection, the world's most powerful .50 cal pellet rifle was about 800 ftlbs, you may be a little south of that, depending on bullet wt.
I use Trail Boss in my 45-70s if i am deer hunting with them and need to travel . Otherwise I prefer using Black Powder. I don't want the bores to rust if I stay in a motel and can't clean them.
I wouldn’t even try it. Just cause. Where is the fun! Just like muzzle loaders. No smoke is no joke!!! Like 45 70 smokeless. It’s just useless. But I’m a ass! What my wife says anyway 😂
Fun video to watch! Back in the 1980s-90s, for about 10 years or so, I had a Springfield contract 50-70 rolling block. The thing had an over-size bore as compared to what the bore was supposed to be. It would keyhole a bullet sized at .515 with a full load of black powder. I slugged the bore and I think it came out at .520 or so. I tried duplex loads that I got from a magazine back then, and I shot slow loads with IMR4198, SR4759, and with Unique, both of those loads were less than starting loads from the old 46th edition Lyman reloading manual. The slow loads didn't keyhole. According to my old notes, I also shot a fair amount of Pyrodex through it. I made the mistake of selling the rifle in the mid 1990s, still kick myself about that mistake.
I used to have an 1868 trapdoor 50-70, and I used IMR 4198 behind a Lyman 425 gr bullet. The old formula was 30% for black, which comes out to 20 grs. I used 20 grs and never experienced any problems. The recoil was lighter than BP, and it gave satisfying low boom.
Buffalo rifle by shooters world is a great substitute for black, all one needs to do is keep velocities similar to black, and you are fine. I use home made cards and cotton to fill the gap in the smokeless 50/70 rounds I have made and shot a lot of in my 1866.
Some 25-30 years ago Ross Sefreid wrote into an article smokeless Reloader 15 at 30% or such of the black powder load for a given cartridge and fill the rest of the case with kapok stuffing. Lube and card the bullet. This was for large rifle cartridges. I'm just remembering so don't use that as a formula.
Great stuff and thanks for taking the time to try this. Those SDs you were getting are GREAT given the fact that that little pinch of powder is rolling around in that huge case. 12 grains of Unique is what I use in 45-70 under a 400 or 535 gr 1-20 bullet. I don’t get as good an SD as you got though. Maybe I’ll have to try Trailboss.
Saw an interesting video about the first smokeless powder, gun cotton, firearm. Not the label. It was an Austrian muzzle loader in the mid 1860's. They did it by putting a rod in the back of the bullet as a spacer. The gun cotton, nitro cellulose, was a fabric wrapped around the stick behind the bullet. The "cartridge" was one unit. Slide it down the barrel. Fires with a percussion cap. Worked very well and it was safe. The project was dropped when a small magazine, think bunker, blew up. They were still learning how to make it stable. I'm thinking a sabo with a rod on the back for spacing and you could have a smokeless muzzle loader.
The problem with guncotton was poor long term stability under environmental conditions. That and the Austrians hadn't figured out the thing about not storing experimental propellants in the same bunker with service propellants.
@@nevisstkitts8264 Modern single base smokeless powder is mostly nitrocellulose, which is also the main component of guncotton. Nitrocellulose is a high explosive which can detonate (which is not what you want for propelling a bullet). The trick is using additives to prevent detonation. Diphenylamine is one of the most common in modern smokeless powder. One of the first kind used was petroleum jelly (vaseline). I suspect that early guncotton had a lot of the un-nitrated cotton still present which may have retained some of the nitric+sulfuric acid mixture which was used to nitrate it, which would accelerate decomposition in storage, which in turn could make it more likely to detonate.
@@sbreheny DPA has been used since at least 1901 when "Poudre 3NBF" was developed by France. It stabilizes nitrocellulose formulations by scavenging the decomposition products generated over time. Paul Vieille invented the first smokeless powder by controlling the esterification level and thus the burn rate and reaction linearity. However, his "Poudre B" also became unstable over time because the volatile stabilizer would evaporate. This resulted in several iterations of powder formulations leading toward 3NBF. Smokeless powder still becomes unstable once sufficient DPA has been scavenged and the original powder had high nitrogen content. IMO 2NDPA provides better stabilization than DPA over long periods, but this requires a diligent design process for any specific formulation. The French avoided double base and triple base propellants and therefore were not forced to use 2NDPA for their single base approach. A great many single base propellants simply continued to use DPA, as a result.
Trail Boss! Love the stuff, I use it all the time. Fudds are rolling over in their graves whenever you put out a new video and I love that too! haha Excellent!
TrailBoss load sheet says IF you don’t compress it then it’s safe for all cartridges. Says it right on the sheet. I haven’t had good results with TrailBoss yet as in haven’t hit an accuracy node with anything I’ve tried it in. Doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist I just haven’t found it for that powder, bullet, primer, cartridge and firearm combination I’ve tried it in. I have learned to be cautious sharing load data and don’t share my data with everyone instead when possible which manual I got it from and the published range from that manual. I figure there’s a reason they’ve cut data back from older manuals by same companies. If I share my load it’s with someone who can realize if it’s not at start they need to work up looking for what load suits their firearm and components best.
Nope. And bear in mind that I have been a member of the C. Sharps custom shop years ago and was the only gunsmith at Shiloh in Big TImber for several years. The Trapdoor action is very weak and if WORN or in the case of some reproduction TDs in 45-70 the cam and recess are a little “off” they can and have “auto ejected:” with blackpowder loads. One man at teh BP sil nats years ago told me his repro TD with a BP load auto ejected and the cartridge case cut a groove in his hair. The action is, due to the cooper cased, Benet primed ammo used until almost the end of its use did not spring back when fired and would maintain pressure on the breech face or even stick in the chamber. SO.. If the action cannot be opened with pressure on the breech face it cannot be reliably iused with cartridge cases basically formed from sheet copper. Then we have the barrel issue. Even the later 45-70s often have bores in the .464” range for groove dimensions. SO a large diameter bullet has to be used to prevent gas cutting both the bullet and the SOFT STEEL or even IRON barrel. Many fast powders, like Unique will ring chambers due to pressure wave phenomenon and not at jsut the bullet base. Even modern steel barrels. This has happened with powder specifically designed for low pressure cast bullet loads and with Unique it has rung barrels in Shiloh 45-70s and Ruger #1s. And, after I found multiple rings in a chamber of a Shiloh used with such a load Wolfgang called Ruger and the ruger tech told hom they had rifles come back with 150 rings in the chamber. It starts at the case web and will run past the base of the bullet. AND or course there is the missing finger thing. A VERY big name in gunwriting, Worked to “Rifle” and others had shot 24 grains of 2400 in a 45-70 TD for DECADES. One day its finally gave up and took part of his hand with it. After a friend of mine, another writer who has written extensively on old guns warned him he was asking for trouble. If the load does not fill the case properly it can cause the primer to flash over the charge and DISABLE the BURN RATE inhibiters and this will even break a modern bolt action. Much less a thin barreled ancient military rifle. So no I would not shoot smokeless in a trapdoor regardless of any vintage. And I have been well acquainted with various single shots, lever action repeaters and revolvers over the years. I know a guy that lost any eye when the smokeless load and apparently case lube or bullet lube on the cartridge resulted excessive breech thrust in a repro not quite a clone of a 1873 lever action that sheared the bottom of the bolt off and when it hit the back of the receiver it spit out the modern firing pin extension that passed through his shooter glasses and stopped, thankfully at the back of the eye socket. So remember that all the safety features of moder firearms designed for smokeless are almost ALL missing from 19th c designs. So a “problem” that a 1892 model would at worst have suck a case (if it was over charged) cost the shooter his eye and nearly his life with the 10 year +- older design. So I don’t recommend smokeless in old guns and warn against it in many repros.
BTW the Unique loa for 45-70 was in a reloading manual. Not sure its still there. Even though its been used for light rifle loads foe 100 years or so, Making me wonder how many old Lever guns have mini-rings in the chambers.
Absolutely you can use smokeless, but you’re really missing out if you do so. Takes about 80% of the fun out of shooting these old rifles. I have had two Sniders that were shot quite a bit with smokeless, and it did cause some damage to the Mk. III. The breechblock was battered to the point it jammed the locking pin in the block.
Trailboss Sounds like somebody spitting’ ambeer into a spittoon. Just curious how your alox lube worked out….youre pretty stingy with it😝! I’ve used it for years and I like a nice coat on the bullet. My lubrisizer only gets used when I gascheck bullets and I use Felix lube. Don’t know what that is? Do a search and you’ll find the recipe. I haven’t bought lube for over 20 years. I enjoy your approach to things.
I'm glad that it worked out well. As for me, every time I save enough money to buy a trapdoor, the prices go up so sadly, I guess I'll never get to try this. ☹
I have a Martini-Henry MkIV that was converted to .50-70 I believe as a smith school project. The barrel is a cut down and thinned down M2 . Im able to give .50-70 the same spicy smokeless treatment the .45-70 got!
I have a Pietta Smith's carbine reproduction rifle that can be shot with brass casings. I do not have a place to shoot black powder. Can I load the brass casings with a light load of Trail Boss?
I’d be interested to know if you have any thoughts about the strength of model 1866 (2nd Allen conversion) Springfield trapdoors compared to the 1868 trapdoors? I think My 1866 is a bit longer 3-band barrel,same length as my 1861 and 1863 Springfields. The bore is still minty shiny clean without pitting and I have an irrational fear of corroding it from shooting black powder in it.
I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers and other black powder guns for years. I recently got a conversation cylinder for one of my revolvers. I have been using some factory loaded cowboy cartridges, and now I have a bunch of empty shells. So, I decided to start reloading with smokeless powder. I was surprised to find how little smokeless powder per grains you use compared to black powder or any of the substitutes. I can see if you use 25 to 30 grains of smokeless powder in a black powder revolver, you will blow it up. With the powder that I am using, it takes between 5 and 6.2 grains for a .45 Colt cartridge. I loaded some up using a Lee dipper, and they fired way too hot for my gun. So I weighed out how much powder that scoop measured, and it was between 7.5 and 8.5 grains. Lessen learned weigh your powder.
450 grain bullet at the speed is still pretty nice. Basically a .45 ACP with nearly 2x the bullet weight. Black powder is best for performance in these old guns though, smokeless powder didn't even exist when that rifle was made.
If you like Lee Liquid Alox trying mixing it with Johnson Paste Waste and Mineral Spirits 45: 45: 10. For a small batch like yours I like to dip lube. I heat some lube in a small cat food tin, get the bullets warm and dip them with plyers. It will fill the groves and lot leave much excess if your boolits are warm.
I load both trailboss and 5744, but not why you think. 45 colt 6.5gr of trailboss pushing a 225gr RNFP to 750fps in a SAA clone and 900fps in a carbine keeps the leading down. 5744 is so versatile it can load ruger only 45, high speed115 and 168gr 308, and do a reduced or workup load in whatever. 5744 is slower than trailboss, but heavy pills need that for timing. It even helped me develop my 45 mongo.
The chemistry of Trail Boss is interesting, and not well known in the shooting community. It is sort of a hybrid of smokeless and black powder type chemistry. It is based on "semi-smokeless" powder chemistry developed shortly after the turn of the 19th century, IIRC it is comprised of nitrocellulose, charcoal, and a mixture of nitrates (barium nitrate sounds right to me), I don't remember is any sulfur is added but it would not surprise me. There is nothing new under the sun right? The original purpose of semi-smokeless was to control the corrosiveness of smokeless powder (the corrosiveness was actually due to corrosive primers, but it was not realized at the time. Corrosive percussion caps worked fine with black powder because the corrosive oxides were diluted by black powder residue, the semi-smokeless worked to reduce corrosion, after a fashion, for the same reason). There is an expensive black powder substitute that advertises clean burning which is similar technology to Trail Boss - its manufacturer keeps well hidden the fact that it burns clean because it is based on smokeless powder chemistry, ie it is on a fundamental level smokeless powder, in the same way that Trail Boss is.
There is one smokeless canister powder that is supposed to more or less duplicate black powder's pressure curve - it is the powder that is recommended for use in the Savage smokeless muzzle loader (was that the Savage 10-ML?). The powder was, I think, AA xmp-5744. I haven't tried it so you are entirely on your own though, do your own research and be responsible for your own safety, since I'm sure not responsible for it!
Nice Video and nice consistency there with Trailboss. I was quite surprised how low you could go with the powder weight and how it remained accurate in your (probably 1:42 twist). I Used 15 grains in my M1867 Rolling Block and that was real accurate but I'll slow it down a lot more thanks to your 9.5grain experience and I want to conserve my Trailboss because, as you said, they don't make it any longer. A tub of Trailboss will cost you $1000 here in Australia compared to the pre-madness price of about $130. Blackpowder is unobtainable so it is strictly a home-made proposition where I come from. As for the maker of Trailboss (ADI), I wrote them and they claimed that they WOULD make it again but they screwed up their own manufacturing plant due to gross incompetence and it might be a few more years but they also screwed up the manufacturing of all pistol and shotgun powders and at the same time America had some supply issues and now won't sell powder to Australia so local importers are slowly swapping over to importing European powders like Vectan. In the meanwhile we buy cases of 12 gauge cartridges to extract the powder for pistols and also experiment with the lowest loads we can manage so your very nice video came at a good time and I hope others will use it. I personally swapped my main Cowboy cartridges from 44WCF to 32WCF so I only use about half the powder and I really like that little cartridge.
That reminds me of a load a bubby of mine developed for his 257 Roberts. He could hunt squirrel with it and not tear the crap out of them. It would just go pop, if you could call something like that cute. Well maybe not but it was fun as hell.
I've seen people use smokeless powder in some muzzle loaders with good results, but safely doing it is critical and the chance of error is too high for me. You basically replicate a cartridge load without the cartridge, but the main thing is seating depth which is very easy to do wrong. And of course you must pre measure your charge with a scale.
You are a pretty good marksman. You are also on the mark when you suggest that accountability is lacking in the current age. If the gun explodes, it is likely that the loader overloaded the cartridge. Thank you for putting together such fine content.
It should not be an issue for the tight lock up of 1868 trapdoor. Any gun with small moving parts or strange headspace methods will almost always fail over time.
WOW what a blast form the past.......... I bought a trap door at a garage sale back in the early 80's and shot black powder and it worked just fine but when looking threw very old reloading books I found some data (1920-1940) and here it is /// IMR 3031 @ 36 grains with a 405 grain single grove flat point . I have been shooting this load since 1983 and about 5000+ rounds later still going strong about 1200 /1250 FPS Alan Thomas
Nice shooting! Nive to see someone who can think outside the box when it come to shooting smokeless powder in a black powder handgun or rifle. And everything you said was spot om on how the pressure of smokeless powder vs. Black powder work. I and my dad accidentally load black powder in 243 Winchester. Surprisingly they were super accurate. But we knew it right away when we got the poof of smoke out the end of the barrel. So we ended up pulling the bullets and reloading them with 4895. My dad and I learned learned a big lesson from this also, make sure you label the can if you put something others than what it says in it. 😂😂😂 no it not a laughing matter. But if you can't laugh about it, your not living. Love the video. Wish i would have kept my allen conversation 50/70 everytime I see one of your videos. Awesome shooting!
A potential danger with using smokeless powder is that it only takes a moment of distraction to double charge a case. One time in a thousand is all it takes for disaster. I have a collection of antique rifles and use Pyrodex RS in loading for them. It uses a full case of powder like black powder, is more available, and not quite as dirty or volatile. The gun still requires a good cleaning though. If you want to use smokeless, I recommend weighing the finished round to see if one is much heavier than the rest. It could indicate an overload.
With trail boss powder a double charge would still usually overfill the case to the point of running over. But with many smokeless powders you are right. As far as weighing finished rounds with light smokeless powder loads there will likely be enough variance in brass weight that this is not effective.
@@davidgardner863 With a lot yeah, but we're talking about a 450 grain bullet that may have some variance in weight and probably cases fabricated from other types of cases when it comes to .50-70.
I have known a number of people use smokeless in BP firearms with perfect safety--heck, I know a guy who is recreating an early guncotton cartridge for a Lorenz (yes, really, it was done in period), so I know it can be done. Personally, I dont get why you'd want to--if you have a BP firearm, way aren't you interested in shooting it the way it was shot? But I think the few guys who know how to do it are scared of having some utter idiot (of which there is no dearth in the BP community) blow himself up then blaming the guy who gave him advice. And let's face it, wile it can be done, it can only be done with a light enough load, and knowing what "light enough" is requires some pretty specialized knowledge. So it has always been easier just to say "It can't be done," and eventually the pseudo-experts just start preaching that without understanding the facts. It's remarkable how often misconceptions get spread exactly that way.
