This was our issued ammo when we still carried revolvers. I was forced into an on duty shooting in the early ‘80s and it dropped the suspect, freeing his hostage.
There was considerable political opposition to "dum-dum" expanding bullets, especially in NY city. The politicians alleged that the expansing bullets caused unnecessary pain and suffering, even death of the criminals. Some cops refused to use the 38 Special RNL aka "The Widowmaker" round and bought their own ammo. The police union lawyers advised that hollowpoint ammo was safer to bystanders because it had less penetration so the NY city politicians finally dropped their opposition to hollow point bullets. NYPD adopted the FBI load which was considered high technology at that time. It remains very effective and hard to beat. Thanks for the interesting test.
I remember those days when the NYPD was stuck using bad performing bullets because of political and media pressure. Nowadays we can thank the NYPD for being the inspiration for the Gold Dot 135 grain +P load in .38 Special for the officers still carrying 38's under the "grandfather" clause.
Hi , its your Buckeye neighbor to the South. Still following you, all these years, and still loving my wheel collectors. I often use your past videos for reference. Enjoy the Summer
I've always liked the Remington load, strictly on the softness of the lead. I can see why this performed well back in the day. A good heavy round that expands and penetrates enough to do the job well.
I’m glad you’re covering the “St. Louis” load. I remember that Federal, Winchester, and Remington 158 SWCHPL +P cartridges were all on the federal ammo contract listings. As late as the early 2000s I recall seeing boxes of Federal, Winchester, and Remington rounds on gun vault shelves even though the FBI had long since switched to the Federal Hydra Shok 147 grain +p+ for revolvers and the bunch I worked for followed the bureau’s lead on ammo selection. By that time, however, the 158s were relegated to training ammo status for those few who were safety conscious and still hadn’t switched to a baby Glock for backup or undercover guns.
I have been following wound ballistics since i eas a teen in the 80's, in the gunzines (dating myself). These loads came out commercially in 1972. They may have been available to LE a few months sooner. Over the decades (say 2 decades), a lot of felons wee checked into morgues with 1 or 2 of these lodged in their back muscles, well expanded. They almost never seemed to overpenetrate. From 4" barrels they usually expanded to .52-.54", which is excellent, sought after 1.5x expansion. In early FBI gel tests, they usually penetrated 14-16" as you got here. I believe they were used as a benchmark in the FBI tests. Let's not forget that Ed Mireles heroically ended the Miami shootout firing these from his 4" 586 (FBI agenst were not allowed to carry magnum ammo; they had to use these from the issued 3" M13 or privately owned revolvers they chose to carry). From a snubby they generally expanded a bit less and penetrated a bit more, as in your results here. As a few commenters pointed out, the 135 gr +p Gold Dot load seems to be the modern version of this, optimized for snubbies. I am retired now, but started my career with my 4" 686, then went to a P229 in 40. I still have both (they were both mine). My current nightstand gun for a few years has been a nicely accurate 2" M64, loaded with the Buddalo Bore version of this, which approaches 1000 fps and has performed exceptionally well in testing i have seen. Thanks for the test. STAY SAFE!
I recall the Winchester version of this offering was the hottest of the three at nearly 1k fps. I suppose that is why it was formed with harder lead. I used the Speer Lawman offering in my .38 Special duty revolver. It was moving at about 950 fps. as I recall. I never doubted in it.
Great information to us laymen. I was gifted a Colt Detective 38 Special in stainless I believe. It was new in like 1964 I believe and was a family defense weapon that a practical outdoorsman doctor (a rare person today) and I don’t think it was ever shot, and I am 76 and use it for my daily carry in the winter months and really need to exercise it at the range. Like most CC people, I hope to never need to use it, but it is better to have it than not.
In the late 70’s my department still used 158gr lead round nose. Old timers back then talked about 38/44 special loads that they used in the 40’s and 50’s. (They were still lead round nose), not sure what the weight was.
Great test and I have been enjoying your old school cool loadings. The updated Underwood +p version looked like it could stand up with anything out there.
Good video. During the Obama shortage, I came across a fresh box of this load. I was carrying a 4 inch K frame at this time. It is my habit to test fit each carry round in each chamber. None of them would chamber. I found that the crimp was never done at the factory. So, I used my Lee Factory Crimp die to put a max crimp on them. Velocity was 905 fps in the 4 inch and 880 fps in a 3 inch. Velocity only varied about 5 fps. I fired half the box to see if any other problems came up. In the "Handgun Stopping Power" books, this load ended up with a 75% one shot stops from a 4 inch barrel rating.
At one time the US Customs Service used a .38 Special +P+, 147 grain jacketed hollow point. The last one used was +P 135 grain. They had to stop using +P+ when they switched out of the CS1 which was basically .357 S&W Model 65 with failure inducing overheat issues. Still, I'd love to have one. My last issued 5 shot was a 1 7/8" model 60. I purchased a 3" model 60 with adjustable sights from the S&W pro shop to use at work. IT WAS AWESOME! I think I was the last revolver carrier. I was forced to give up its usage in 2017. I still have it though.
Great video.. I use federal +p in a 4inch and my wife the same in a 2 inch.. in the late 80s we carried SW13 357s.. some of the guys would use 38+p.. we called them 38 hot loads
I remember the FBI carrying S&W Model 13 revolvers with three inch barrels. The agents had a choice of 38 Special 158 grain SWC HP's or 357 Magnum 145 grain Silvertips.
Nice test. I carried this round for a few years in my off duty S&W 38. My department was like most large departments in the US only adopting hp ammo when the evidence was overwhelming it was safer than fmj. Still capable but several manufacturers have better versions.
The only "FBI load"that's loaded properly is the Buffalo Bore. Fed & Rem both use too hard of a lead alloy. Buffalo Bore works great at $2+per round. But, I get 85% of the effect with wadcutters or even LRN...
Nice loads. I appreciate that you test stuff outside the latest hotness. I have an idea that is way outside the box but may be of interest to the cowboys. Could you test Cowboy Action flat point loads in .38/.357, .44 Spl/Mag, and 45 Colt in 4-5" barrels. What I have in mind is what one can expect if you are caught having to defend yourself with your competition ammo (but not mouse fart loads). I may be weird - OK I am definitely weird- but I think it would be interesting.
Thanks! I have critical defense 110 +p now but need to try more loads to find what shoots most true to the sights and has good performance on these tests.
@@herrenhajji actually Hornady Crit Defense 110gn +P may well be about your all’round best option truth be told. Again GunSamAF has got reviews on it (and would likely echo the recommend). The Rem HTP 110gn’s were a personal fav as, back in the day, they were sold in 50 round boxes and were only a few cents a round more expensive than UMP RN Plinking ammo. Now they are sold in 20 rd box’lets, and are abt as expensive as Hrndy Crit Def. Critical Def also has that pointed polly tip which lends itself to cylinder chamber insertion. If you haven’t yet acquired any SafariLand Comp 1 (press to release) speed loaders **THAT** shud be your next purchase!
Great video. The Remington is what it’s my Ruger LCRx 357 Magnum carry gun. The accuracy I can achieve with it plus the performance I have tested with ut is worth giving up a true Magnum in my opinion. At 44 yards I still got expansion in a gallon water jug from my Ruger. I was impressed. The Federal seemed to perform well too though so I wouldn’t be against going with it but like you said, the Remington is pretty easy to find.
It's fun to realize that before all the high-zoot, double-naught cool bullet technology of today these "primitive" rounds were doing just fine in real world shootings. There just seems to be something about the .38 special (especially +p) that seems just about the perfect balance in performance and shootability. My daily "always gun" that I have on me pretty much all the time including non-permissive work environment (gee, why did they hire retired cops for security except to know we'd be armed? :p ) is a S&W 442. My current loading is 125 gr +p Silvertips (old ones) but my alternative is Federal 158 gr +p Nyclad LSWCHPs. The little beast shoots great with them and such has been getting the job done for a long time.
I sometimes carry a 1960 model 60 no dash that I'm pretty sure isn't rated for +p. Right now she's loaded with S&B 148g wadcutters, but definitely looking for a better/ more powerful round... This is mostly a mailbox/ run to the corner store pocket carry. Any ideas?
That a good test . This explained alot . From what i was told about years ago about the ammo that was used at the time in the late 60s and 70s. My dad always talked about the dum dum bullets.
Hi gun Sam awsome video. I really like 158 grn lead 38 spl. I cast .my own from pure soft lead. I size and gascheck them. They are very accurate at std pressure. . Ive shot groundhogs with my ruger blackhawk revolver 7" barrel. And it messes them up. Ive taken them at over 30 yards. And its like shooting my ruger single six 22. God bless. Awsome. And always impressive shooting. With the little guns.😊😊
Include the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +P Lead SWC HP. I think you did a video on those at one time. It is what I carry in all my .38 Special and .357 Magnum snob nosed revolvers (1-7/8", 2" and 2-1/2") It delivers (chronographed) 971 fps from a S&W J frame 1-7/8", 1003 fps from a 2" Colt Detective Special and 1021 fps from a 2-1/2" S&W Model 19. Perfect expansion in gel for all three.
My last video is with the Underwood version, near identical load. It gave me 999 FPS on average in this 2" barrel and it performed well. I released it 4 days ago. I don't include stuff like that in one test, as I am going with older specific loadings of it that were around before Buffalo Bore and Underwood, and ones rated at 890 FPS specifically, and ones used by law enforcement.
@GunSam I wonder now that you got my mind on reloading. Is there a recipe for that Winchester load, or is that a trade secret? Would be cool to make your own as I'm sure you've already thought about.
@@mikewithers299 I have never loaded them specifically, but it wouldn't be that hard to do. All you need is to have a .357 Magnum revolver, and experiment with powders and loads, potentially going a tad over charge until you get one that gives the right velocity. If that experiment is within the parameters of known load data, then there you go, if it's close enough, good enough too. I never felt the need to replicate them though, you would specifically need whatever bullets Winchester uses, and I don't know where to obtain them. Hornady and Speer make ones you can buy that are 158 LSWCHP, but again I don't know what Winchester uses.
@@GunSam thanks Sam. I want to have my own loads that work with the 60-15. When I get the loading equipment I will be trying all kinds of things. Of course i will follow proven loads first to get a feel, then adjust in small increments to see what it likes. Kinda like a science project but volatile 🤣
No, never taught anyone before. I don't really consider myself a teacher here either. Main focus is just running these tests for myself, and recording what happens. That's all.
Came back to watch again. Heads up to anyone wanting to get some of this ammo - as I type this, Midway has the Remington on sale for a little under $16/box of 20 - they are giving free shipping with orders over $99 - I did do a quick ammoseek and found three other sources for less but the shipping was high... so
CLARITY:this load was primarily developed by JIMMY CIRRILLO and his NYPD STAHE OUT SQUAD. In chicago;there was a lot of interest ;so the NY guys ;sent ballistoc/load in fo to them;even tho they were allready going in that direction. Any how the Feds werent sleeping ;they saw the results;and climbed aboard. As usual;they claimed all the credit for this wonderfull ,loadsing! haha So itgoes;AD NAUSEUM!!
Jim Cirillo would be at the M.E. Autopsy to see the effects of the ammunition. He liked the .30 M1 Carbine 110 grain Softpoint Ammunition. From his experience, the 12 Gauge with slug or 00 Buck at close range under 15 yards would be his choice. He carried two .38 Special Revolvers during the Stakeout operations. Federal made a .38 Special HST 130 grain +P load based on the open base wadcutter.
Your results seem to match all of the other tests I have seen (in particular Luck Gunner's). You had slightly better expansion with the Federal. The Remington and Winchester did MUCH better out of a four inch barrel. I tried some Buffalo Bore. I didn't test expansion, but the Buffalo Bore was considerably less accurate than the Remington at four yards and a 2" barrel. Effectiveness? I think a big, heavy slug of lead, even not-so-soft lead, will ruin your day if it hits a bone! {!-{>
TBH, I think the Buffalo Bore & Underwood standard pressure lswchp loads are the best of that ammo type. I've found that the Buffalo Bore shoots more accurately out of my m&p 340, but the Underwood's accuracy is perfectly acceptable. The BB is very smokey, while the UW is not, due to the coating. The UW seems to generate a bit more recoil.
To be fair they use gas checked bullets and are thus only similar in a fleeting way. The bullets can be made softer to aid expansion and the check allows higher velocity than swaged bullets without leading. The big manufacturers had to keep the price competitive for big contracts thus the use of unchecked bullets.
.357 was created for police force use, and was retired from service after a 5 year review found the fatality rate when deadly force was needed to be used was over 97%.
It would have been interesting to see the Paul Harrell load side by side with those two. The 125gr JHP probably would have a bit less recoil. Not sure how it would do with the denim though. Cool video. It's amazing how much difference something as little as the hardness of the lead makes when it has a 25 ft-lb advantage.
I'm guessing you must mean Remington SJHP. That, the Critical Defense 110+P, the Winchester Defender 130 gr and this, are probably the best performing rounds to date. The Gold Dot, never really did that good for me.
@@GunSam That's the one. As for the Gold Dot, I can't even find it anymore. I would be interested in testing their 110gr bullets, but I can't find them. XTP 110s are easy to find. Cheap too. As far as 110gr loaded ammunition, the Hornady seems easiest to find. Winchester seems to have dropped off the map, like you said. Can't find anything.
I actually never had the opportunity to load them, was always out of stock when I was bigger into reloading. I did however, load a lot of standard, solid 158 gr SWC's as well as 125 gr XTP's. Those are actually my loads lol. Hornady XTP 125 gr, 5.0 gr of TiteGroup was my special load. They did 900 FPS in a snub and always expanded in testing to about .45"
I carry the Remington version in most of my .38 Specials. Which is many. 😛 It's pretty brisk to fire in smaller revolvers though, and some guns just don't like it much and rather casually distribute the bullets. It's downright unpleasant in the Colt Agent and Cobra, and I use Liberty Civil Defense and Federal 110 grain standard pressure in those. In 2" and 4" K-frame guns it's highly controllable. Noticably increased muzzle flash though.
lol, I have a few boxes of Sampson .38 Special 158 gr SJHP ammo. They have a 1983 manufacture date. I ran them through the chronograph and they showed their age. Got several in my 4" barrel doing about 1,150 -1,200 FPS, then all the sudden there would be like 900 and 800 FPS reads, then 1,000, then 900, 1,200. All over the place.
@@GunSamA good video would to demonstrate using older ammunition. When I went through the Academy. The firearms instructor recommended to remove the ammunition from the magazines to preserve the springs when off for a few days. We had noticed bullet setbacks. The Department put a notice to inspect ammunition for bullets that appeared to look shorter to other bullets. We were no longer following that trend of removing the ammunition from our magazines weekly as the springs were getting worn out quicker. If the ammunition is kept properly stored. You can get optimal performance with quality ammunition.
IWI also had a 90gr round nose jacketed soft point in .357M, a relative gifted me a handful of them, I tried a couple at the range on old tires, definitely hot and fast, nothing over a chrony, so I can’t validate numbers though. I haven’t seen any at shows or old stores, no telling if a useable amount exists anywhere for testing.
I certainly appreciate your tests . it's my belief that buffalo bores 38special hardened full wad cutters, the anti personal round is the perfect self defense 38special short barreled round. like the late Jim cerilo I'm more concerned about going through than expansion. reloading and testing ammunition over 45years it's not easy to to have 38special hp ammo with desired explanation and penetration. same with 380acp. and I'm not overly concerned about pass through shots as how often do you hear of bystanders getting killed by 380acp, 38special, 9mm? here in nc I've never heard of people getting killed from pass through bullets of these calibers. most people are sent home from hospital 12 hours to 4 or 5 days to recoup at home from pass through bullets hitting them . papa wishing you well. 😊
And if you reload, there's plenty of choices for the LSWCHP out there. One of my favorites is the Hornady Swaged Cowboy bullet for accuracy. A test with some Underwood 38 SPECIAL +P 158GR. gas checked LSWCHP soft cast may be in order. They look mean, like some .357 Magnum Black Talons I have.
Sam! Why do you use a crap Taurus ? I know there is a reason, please advise. A Smith shoots much nicer and a Colt even better yet! Thanks for all you do for us.
Any chance you can side track a little and do a "how to" on cleaning leaded barrels. That's been my only apprehension with shooting led. Thanks for your hard work.
Kroil. Any industrial supply house or all your ‘go to’ mail order supplier’s such as Brownell’s, Natchez SS, Midway, etc. carry it. It’s the darling of benchrest shooters and mechanics that know how to get badly rusted nuts, bolts and studs loosened. It is not cheap, a little goes a long way and if you have any old .22’s that just don’t shoot accurately anymore, swab the bore, let it sit overnight, patch and brush it thoroughly, run one more coat and let that sit overnight and repeat on patches and brushes, she will sparkle. Be mindful of this though, Kroil contains Benzene, as do most any other petrochemical products, and Benzene is a known carcinogen (linked to bladder cancer). Limit your skin and vapor contact and do not allow children to come in contact with it. It gets underneath the layers and particles of lead, loosening the bond between steel and lead. Use a resealable plastic screw top bottle/jar to dispose old patches in until you can throw them away or burn them outside (only where legal to do). Leading of barrels, particularly handguns, usually is only an issue if one is loading them hot and fast and shooting a lot of them, but the lead alloy mixture (percentage of soft lead to the percentage of tin and hardener, if you are casting your own projectiles) using a harder bullet or ones with gas checks installed can easily minimize lead accumulation in a barrel.
To get lead out of barrels, get some Chore Boy all copper scouring pads. Wrap some material from the pad around a bore brush for a very tight fit in the barrel. This will also get plastic out of a shotgun barrel easily.
Since you love .38 special I just acquired a S&W M64-5. Its the a LEO model with the DAO trigger. I'm going to leave it as is with the trigger. It forces me to be on point my fundamentals. And it is very accurate so I know a miss is me not doing my part.
Good test. Disclaimer: I'm a HTP fanboy; the Remington 158 LSWCHP is my daily carry in an Airweight snub and has been for many years. I would, however, point out that the recoil in a gun that light (about 14 oz unloaded) with the slender stock grip is pretty brutal. It's definitely flinch-inducing. But it is ammo that was proven to work by thousands of police shootings over several decades. There is no better provenance for a cartridge, so it's what I carry. Why an Airweight? Because I can put it in a sticky holster, stuff it into the top of my boot and forget it's there. I literally walk around all day and don't even notice it. Which means that when I'm away from the house I always have a gun on me. I know several people who insist on heavier and bulkier guns for EDC and it's hit or miss (pardon the pun) whether they're carrying at any given time. If something is the least bit uncomfortable, human nature causes us to start finding excuses not to do that thing. Five old-school "manstopper" rounds in my boot are worth infinitely more than 15 Gold Dots that I left on the dresser that day because it was hot or my favorite carry shirt is in the laundry or I'm riding the bike to work or [insert lame excuse here]. Don't get me wrong: I'll occasionally carry a mini-nine or even a duty size gun -- but those are the positive exceptions when it's comfortable for me to do so or when I'm going into orange territory and want the comfort of extra firepower. But I ALWAYS have a gun on me, even if it's "only" a .38 snub. Many people in my experience cannot make that claim.
I'm the same way, except as forbidden by law ie hospitals, dorms etc, I always have one on me. I like to pocket carry, as for me it's the best option there is for firepower with it's concealability, and I carry a snub nose revolver. The pockets are the same in every pair of jeans or pants I wear, and they are built in concealment compartments that I don't have to think about. People be like, "oh well you will print, people will see it instantly"...but, since I got my permit to carry legally over 8 years ago....there's not a single video I have on here going back to February 2016 where I do NOT have a snub in my front right pocket while filming. I have never gotten a comment on it, and I make a lot of videos lol.
In fairness to the FBI load, it was designed for a 4" barrel so it will expand more when fired from such revolvers, and less so from 2" snubbies. Our agency detectives used 110 grain JHP +P until we switched to 380 or 9 mm for detectives. 38 Special revolvers are still allowed for detectives and off duty concealed carry.
Yeah, don’t tell me about how superior your super-duper hi-capacity semi-auto is unless you actually carry it all the time. “Only five rounds of .38? Mine has 18 plus two extra magazines!” “Great. Where is it?” “It’s in the truck/upstairs/in the safe…”
Boy, both these brands smoke quite a bit with that load. Side note: Kinda morbid, but the LSWCHP were the bullets in Mark David Chapman's Charter Arms Bulldog on December 8, 1980.
I didn't know that. I was a baby at the time lol. The Buffalo Bore and Underwood standard pressure version is the equivalent to these +P loads, but with a Gas check so the leading is next to none.
Soft alloy at 1000 fps is the answer. I have cast different alloys of cast bullets using a gas check to prevent leading of the soft alloy. As far as factory projectiles the Speer is the best. I like the Hornady more but the alloy is harder.
I've got a bunch of the HTP FBI load rounds but I keep my EDC model 15-3 combat masterpiece stoked with buffalo bore's version instead, Remmingtons are loaded kinda weak these days.
Few things: NYPD NEVER issued or authorized "hollow points" until the Speer+P 124 GDHP sometime around 2000ish , due, allegedly, to the Diallo incident . Sometime later NYPD issued the Speer 135 "short barrel" GDHP to personnel still qualifying & carrying revolvers. The NYPD did issue 158 SWC for years, but not SWC-HP. Also, the FC 38G is GARBAGE. I have encountered at least 2 lots with UNCRIMPED projectiles. One range trip turned my LCR into a kinetic bullet puller. YMMV, but I have avoided 38G for around a decade. Unexcusable lack of QC.
if you were to pick one self defense ammo in 38 special or 38 special+p, with the price of ammo being a big concern, which would it be? ideally thered be something cheap enough to practice with all the time and run the same ammo for daily carry. it would be out of an 856 in my case so standard pressure i guess would be best if it were actually cheap enough ammo to plink with/practice....?
For me, to simplify things, I would buy as much Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr+P ammo I could get. While it's only 25 round boxes, often for $30 - It has been the only round that I have been able to reliably get hollow point expansion from in snub nose revolvers. *If* someone really wanted an okay round to practice with and carry, the Remington UMC 125 gr+P SJHP is a decent choice as I have seen the 100 pack for like $65 or so, the downside is expansion is minimal, maybe averaging .43" rather than Critical Defense's .55" or so. There's not really a good hollow point that is both inexpensive and also expands every time, but being that the Critical Defense is 25 round boxes for the same price as most 20 round boxes, you got a few rounds to play with and also carry. You could also go to websites that offer 50 round boxes of ammo. The 110 gr Federal Hydrashok in a 50 round box is a pretty good standard pressure round, actually expands more than the 129 gr+P Hydrashok. If you can find the Winchester Ranger or Defender 130 gr JHP, that's a really good round too. I wish it were as simple as buying 9mm 115 gr JHP "white box" (now in a black box labeled "Defense") but it's more complicated with .38 Special. BTW the 125 gr SJHP Winchester Defense is roughly as cost effective and performs as well as that Remington UMC I just mentioned.
@@GunSam thank you. i actually have some of that winchester defense in 9mm based off a review i saw. might be worth seeing if i can get it in 38spl as well. although all the hornady ftx tests ive seen you do make that ammo seem pretty tempting
The lead is softer on the Remington and isn't engaging the rifling like the harder federal...the harder federal grips the rifling better hence the better accuracy...the Remington is softer hence the better expansion yet slower velocities...as always great tests Sam 👍
I'm not a Taurus expert, but I bought my 605 in 2019 and haven't had and real issues with it. I've done small measurements and the 856 is a slightly different frame. My guess is that the 605/905/85 frame that they been using for forever, is good and they all run good. The 856 I think had issues due to them modifying that frame to make it a 6 shot. I'm buying a 905 soon so I hope I'm right
The standard pressure .38 Special Buffalo Bore, is essentially a carbon copy of the .38 Special+P RCMP load. The Canadian Mounted Police wanted a .38 Special load that did about 1,000 FPS in a 4" or 5" barrel.
I think the Federal LSWCHP was intended to be fired primarily through 4" barreled "duty guns" like the 686 or Service Six. It's a great load in a "full size" revolver, IMO.
Are they really doing much more than a LRN that tumbles? It doesn't seem like it in the gel. When i carry a revolver it's usually a 3" SP101 with a GT Bullets (soft) 180 gr wide LHP i load to 900 fps. (.357 case) with CFE-P powder. Very accurate with mild recoil in the steel gun.
Yes, they do more. I state this as there's a lot of old cops who would tell you there's a huge difference, and the old Sanow and Marshall results basically mirror what older cops have told me. A Federal .38 Special 158 gr LRN at 755 FPS from a snub, has a 49% one shot stop number and a whopping 47 second goats at Strasbourg time (where goats were shot with a lot of cartridges and timed their incapacitation). The Remington .38 Special 158 gr LHP load at 776 FPS from a 2" snub (slightly slower velocity than my reading) has a 65% one shot stop stat and 16 second goats at Strasbourg time. Huge difference.
Would you expect to see any significantly better performance with a 3 inch where you'll gain an extra 40 or 50fps? I've been moving to 3 inch over the 2inch in a lot of cases because it seems to be a better balance between carry ability and overall performance.
I am still trying to figure out why people use denim in these tests. It should be one layer of hoodie sweatshirt and one layer of T-shirt these days. Tell me I am wrong.
I think one layer is dumb. Here in Michigan people often wear like 8 layers of random fabric in the winter. I'd rather have the ability to go through excess denim and not need it, than have the denim defeating ability set at a low-ball number, then need more than it can do. Extra denim is no less important than minimum penetration. Like 8" of gel penetration would show to be 4" in a body, and be enough penetration for most defensive situations, but wouldn't you rather have 12" in gel to assure enough penetration through an arm/side shot?
@@DanTheWolfman My oldest is 18 and moving to Detroit next month for school. I keep telling her she can have one of my guns, but she's on the fence about it. My other two are 17 and 11 and seemingly have little interest in it, so I don't push it.
There’s a picture I saw of a biker guy that was shot 33 times by police with 9mm but he continued to shoot at police until he was hit by 2 12gauge slugs so the story in NY probably happened more than once.
@@mgarand-no4tnDon’t forget the gangbanger that got into a shooting with a cop in Chicago in 08. Gangbanger took 14 rounds of .45 to the chest and didn’t stop shooting until he got hit in the head. Some people just don’t die. Kind of makes the whole cartridge comparison moot. All handguns pretty much suck. Use a long arm when available.
Rifles and shotguns are powerful but to heavy and large to carry all day handguns are easy to carry but generally not powerful so my theory is the perfect defense gun is a short barrel 460s&w it’s powerful like 2000ftlbs and power factor around 480 it’s about guaranteed to destroy the perp in one shot and it’s kind of concealable sort of and they’re just cool.
